Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work

[Hopefire]

I am totally confused as to why some people are still defending Brandon Sanderson at this point.

 

I'm totally confused as to why some people are still attacking his work at this point.

 

 

Oh wait, he's not Robert Jordan, so even when he writes one of the best chapters of the Wheel of Time to date, haters gonna hate.

[Neophyte]

I am totally confused as to why some people are still defending Brandon Sanderson at this point.

 

 

I am totally confused as to why some people are still defending Brandon Sanderson at this point.

 

I'm totally confused as to why some people are still attacking his work at this point.

 

 

Oh wait, he's not Robert Jordan, so even when he writes one of the best chapters of the Wheel of Time to date, haters gonna hate.

 

Because there are reasons to do both. It is possible to criticize his work without seeming to condemn him as human trash, and it is possible to defend aspects of his work and plans without endorsing him as a saint. If a particular criticism is off base, then I* will defend him against what is see as unwarranted criticism, and I'll give my reasons for doing so. Just as when there is something in his writing that I think is faulty, I'll point out those flaws.

 

And while I might do either with passion, I strive to do both without vitriol.

 

*I can only speak for myself, but there are certainly others who so the same.

[Suttree]

Oh wait, he's not Robert Jordan, so even when he writes one of the best chapters of the Wheel of Time to date, haters gonna hate.

 

This is part of what makes most of the opposition to critique so hard to take seriously. Insteading of stating how they disagree they blindly call it all "hating" or "bashing" and then offer no evidence of what they think was so accomplished about a chapter or the quality of writing. Further as should have been made abundantly clear by now now one is expecting Brandon to be as good as RJ. What we do expect however is for Brandon to be as good as Brandon. That most certainly has not been the case.

 

AS an aside I hope you are not pointing to Ch. 1 from AMol as on of the "best chapters of the wheel of time to date". It offers decent fan gratification(blatantly so in the way Egwene is redeemed) but the flaws in both plot and prose have already been well addressed.

 

Because there are reasons to do both. It is possible to criticize his work without seeming to condemn him as human trash, and it is possible to defend aspects of his work and plans without endorsing him as a saint. If a particular criticism is off base, then I* will defend him against what is see as unwarranted criticism, and I'll give my reasons for doing so. Just as when there is something in his writing that I think is faulty, I'll point out those flaws.

 

And while I might do either with passion, I strive to do both without vitriol.

 

*I can only speak for myself, but there are certainly others who so the same.

 

Well said Neo.

[fionwe1987]

Strongly disagree here Wert. There is a ton of filler in TGS and ToM, RJ certainly woulnd't have finished in one as he claimed but I firmly believe it could have been done in two(possibly one very large book put out in two parts).

 

Absolutely not. Jordan's writing style can best be described as 'relaxed'. I have no doubt he would have started moving things faster, as we saw towards the end of KoD, but even that is slow as hell compared to Sanderson's pace throughout the last two books. There were filler moments in the last two books, but compared to the first half of KoD, all of CoT and most of PoD and WH? There is no comparison.

 

Note that this is not necessarily a good thing, but Sanderson is a much pacier writer than Jordan, and brought this series to a close more quickly than Jordan would have done. Unless Jordan was planning to simply omit a huge amount of the action in the final three books and maybe come back to it later as side-novels, I can't see any way he'd have done it faster.

Strongly disagree Wert. Its clear from Brandon's statements that a lot of plot in these books came from him. For example, in tGS, Egwene's very first meeting with Elaida was to turn into a confrontation which ended up with Egwene imprisoned. Brandon instead added several chapters, and split the meeting with Elaida into two. Its also fairly clear the Mesaana plotline in ToM was actually to be fitted with the events in tGS. But to accomodate it in ToM, we got any number of nonsense chapters on the Gawyn-Egwene relationship, the Hall trying tactics it had already tried, etc. That's a huge chunk of Egwene's storyline right there that were clearly added to spread her story out into more books. Jordan clearly had no such plans.

 

Same with the Perrin storyline in ToM. We got a mindnumbing amount of back and forth with the Whitecloaks, and Graendal was clearly tacked on to the story creating a plot that made absolutely no sense. The Dreamspike was also Brandon's creation, as was the bubble of evil that delayed Perrin forever. Both those plot devices extended the Perrin arc significantly.

 

Then we got all sorts of nonsense chapters like Hinderstap, the utterly pointless Perrin chapter in tGS, and any number of other chapters to create artificial break points that would allow the books to be split into three.

 

Its clear that RJ was completely correct that there was only one book's worth of material left in the story. That story definitely would have been too big to fit into one book, but nor would it have needed three independent novels. Two volumes of enormous size, I think.

 

RJ also had the ability to move things along really fast when he wanted to. Look at Egwene's sole chapter in KoD. That took her from captive Novice to at the cusp of eroding Elaida's power in a few pages. I don't see why similar chapters couldn't have advanced Rand, Mat, Elayne and Perrin a lot further along before we got into the key events we saw in tGS and ToM, allowing for a halfway point of Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount coupled with Egwene's rise to Amyrlin and Perrin with Elayne, and Mat off to Ghenjei.

 

Then you get Merrilor very quickly without the artificial one month time period created to deal with the timeline mess for Perrin and Mat (but which totally screwed up Aviendha's timeline, and Elayne's). And the rest of volume 2 deals with the events we'll see in aMoL.

 

Such a book isn't outside of what RJ could do at all. He's done busy, eventful books that were still indulgent before. Look at tSR or LoC.

 

Now I don't blame Brandon for not achieving that. He would definitely have faced the brunt of criticism for not showing some of the scenes RJ himself may not have planned to show. So he went ahead and put those in. But there's no doubt that even with RJ's indulgent style, the original version of aMoL could have been done in two LoC size volumes. The key thing to remember is that not all the plot elements from tGS and ToM were from RJ.

[Rufae]

An interesting point raised elsewhere: it is difficult for Sanderson to produce his best work for WoT as it his not his story. He does not have control over where to go next in the plot and does not fully grasp all the nuances of the characters because they are not his characters. This, I think, combined with the general rushed nature (of ToM especially) creates a situation where Sanderson could not finish the final books to 100% of anyone's satisfaction (including probably his own). The biggest sacrifice is depth (or rather detail, which are not quite the same thing) and that was sacrificed due to Sanderson's much faster pacing. If RJ was still with us and had completed the series, I extremely doubt it could have been done in three volumes, and would probably have been four or five. On one level, with RJ's superior attention to detail, that may not have been a bad thing. But, with the hand we've been dealt, I can see the wisdom in ramping up the pacing and finishing the series more concisely.

 

Something that I do firmly believe and have done since 2007 (when I suggested Brandon as the most obvious candidate for the job, before he was chosen) is that absolutely no other fantasy author could have finished this series as well as he has done. Yes, the timeline is shot to hell and gone in Towers of Midnight, and Mat frequently does not feel quite right (much moreso in Storm though), but on the other hand we got books that were readable, that took the story where RJ planned to and, most critically importantly, do not have the words 'Kevin J. Anderson' located anywhere near them :)

 

Something I do hope for, and I know that Sanderson has been pushing for, is for Team Jordan to release Jordan's outlines and notes at a later date so fans can read the raw materials and see for themselves what he had to work with, and if they disagree on what he's done, can disagree with all the facts before them. Christopher Tolkien did that by releasing all of his father's notes (in a massive twelve-volume series) so fans could see how he assembled The Silmarillion and, if necessary, disagree with him and come to their own conclusions instead, and I think something similar happening for Wheel would be a good thing.

 

This +10. I think Brandon has done an excellent job with what he had to work with and no othe author would have done enarly the job he has done. He has accomplished the nearest we are ever going to get to the original story, IMHO.

[BFG]

I am totally confused as to why some people are still defending Brandon Sanderson at this point.

 

Oh wait, he's not Robert Jordan, so even when he writes one of the best chapters of the Wheel of Time to date, haters gonna hate.

This is part of what makes most of the opposition to critique so hard to take seriously. Insteading of stating how they disagree they blindly call it all "hating" or "bashing" and then offer no evidence of what they think was so accomplished about a chapter or the quality of writing. Further as should have been made abundantly clear by now now one is expecting Brandon to be as good as RJ. What we do expect however is for Brandon to be as good as Brandon. That most certainly has not been the case. AS an aside I hope you are not pointing to Ch. 1 from AMol as on of the "best chapters of the wheel of time to date". It offers decent fan gratification(blatantly so in the way Egwene is redeemed) but the flaws in both plot and prose have already been well addressed.

 

To be fair, you could level your same criticism of Hopefire to Mark D in the post above.

 

I've seen some of Mark D's other posts (and other posters) and I know that generally he argues his case well, but that post isn't one of them.

 

Because there are reasons to do both. It is possible to criticize his work without seeming to condemn him as human trash, and it is possible to defend aspects of his work and plans without endorsing him as a saint. If a particular criticism is off base, then I* will defend him against what is see as unwarranted criticism, and I'll give my reasons for doing so. Just as when there is something in his writing that I think is faulty, I'll point out those flaws. And while I might do either with passion, I strive to do both without vitriol. *I can only speak for myself, but there are certainly others who so the same.

Well said Neo.

+1

[Hopefire]

AS an aside I hope you are not pointing to Ch. 1 from AMol as on of the "best chapters of the wheel of time to date". It offers decent fan gratification(blatantly so in the way Egwene is redeemed) but the flaws in both plot and prose have already been well addressed.

It's an absolutely amazing chapter, from top to bottom.

 

-It opens with one of the best "Wind" openings to take, bringing the reader that might have read TOM a year or more ago and who isn't rereading up to date on things that matter - the world is dying, Caemlyn is burning, refugees everywhere not even knowing where they're marching to. There's some absolutely lovely description in there - the section of Taren Ferry, contrasting the cobbled streets and redstone foundations with the feral dogs and the smoke that had long since stopped rising is an example of great writing. The end of the "wind" section provides a neat beat of contrast; after all of these images of fear, destruction and decay we find Rand laughing. Not in a crazy way, but in a warm way, laughing with a friend. An island of life in the dying world.

 

-The next section has Rand subtly comparing himself to Perrin. "Strange, how much about a man could change while his core remained exactly the same." We get a callback to Lanfear's appearance, and we don't have Rand obsess about it - but then as his thoughts return to it he asks Perrin to go for a walk with him. We get that Rand is really trying very hard not to fall into old habits, and that he wants to act like the person he knows he should act like. Meanwhile, Perrin is more comfortable around Rand now than he's been in a while, but he's still nervous to some extent - note how he puts his hand on Mah'alleinir as he walks next to Rand. Whether nervous of Rand or of the situation of the world in general, Perrin isn't as relaxed as he seems.

 

-There's some info drop, in a way that doesn't feel forced. They're waking, they hear blacksmiths working in the distance. With the Last Battle on the way, power forged weapons are being made, and there's a small personal anecdote about the Maiden's. It's an item that makes sense to add, and this is as good a time as any to add it. That the smiths are working well into the night hints at the urgency of the matter, and when factored in with the beginning of the prologue and the power that creation seems to have in turning back the Dark One's touch, it seems like a potentially significant item lightly touched.

 

-The info drop continues with Perrin and Rand mussing about the same things, coming at them from different directions. Rand thinks about the taste of seawater, and how he's learned to accept the internal changes he's faced as a part of him. Perrin sees the outward trappings, the fancy clothes and the external material changes. This is also a reflection of the nature of the two characters, how Perrin is very much a physical character and sees things in those terms, while Rand is much more of a philosopher, and sees the internal changes as the significant ones. Rand doesn't care about the fancy clothes. Whatever clothes he wears, he'd still be a king - which harkens back to the Eye of the World and The Great Hunt, where people remark that even if you put Rand in rags he'd still dominate the room. Meanwhile, Perrin can't really see his internal changes; though his core is the same, the changes he sees are that he's wearing nicer threads and has a big hammer that's totally impractical for smithing. Rand then gives a classic Aes Sedai answer, and Perrin nods - I think that if we were in his POV at the time, we'd probably get a bit about how the blacksmith's puzzle just clicked together - and Rand has basically answered that yes, he does believe in the changes.

 

-Rand's dream analogy shows clear allusion to Perrin's wolf dream; again, we know Perrin, and we can think of the lines of thought that he's going through when he sounds "oddly reserved." For the first time, we get a reasonably full and clear explanation for what it's like for Rand, remembering being Lews Therin, and the way it's worked from Rand's point of view shows that he's still worried about being considered mad. There's also a fascinating bit about how Rand considers the "mantle of the Dragon Reborn," that it's not a mask or an act, it's a part of himself that he's accepted. In earlier books, this sort of thought would have been accompanied by the thought that duty is heavier than a mountain, death lighter than a feather, but I don't think that the omission of that statement is in any way unintentional - Rand's viewpoint now has moved beyond that sentiment, he's no longer a death seeker longing to lay down his burden.

 

-We get a few hints about how the Dark One will be resealed. Rand's voice here sounds bang-on where Rand's voice sounded around The Fires of Heaven or early Lord of Chaos; he thinks that he sees a way forward, he knows it's a gamble and he's not letting the issue rest easily in his mind, but he's going to take the chance.

 

-There's some light humor and information dump with Balwer, who is indignantly in character, darkened slightly by Rand's internal monologue and statement about secrets kept close to his heart - leading the reader to wonder what secret is he talking about? Is it something we know already, like what happened on Dragonmount or his visit with Lanfear? Or is it how he intends to seal up the Dark One? Or is it the content of what he wants the next day? Or is it something related to his relationship with Min, Elayne and Aviendha?

 

-The quake, and Rand's response ("Rand felt it like a painful muscle spasm") show the link between the Dragon and the land, and his thought afterwards shows that his bad habits aren't entirely gone - he's just more aware of them, as he first things "I'm not ready" before correctly thinking "we're not ready." Rand has had a habit of trying to do everything himself, and that thought and correction shows that for all he's changed, his first impulse stays the same. The conclusion of Rand's interview with Balwer has the man standing taller - we see the cynicism creeping in at the edges of Rand's viewpoint again, knowing how to motivate people.

 

-Rand losing track of thought at the thought he would be a father was touching, as were his mental gymnastics as to why Elayne hadn't told him. He's making excuses for her, blaming himself but not placing blame on her. It's something he's done all series when confronted by actions from other people that don't fall in line with his expectations for them, he tries to rationalize or justify the action. He may be right, but this is still Rand al'Thor poking through, showing he's still very much a part of the Dragon.

 

-Egwene's letter is an interesting thing, because she's not certain if she'll send it. This makes sense for the reason Egwene provides - organizing her thoughts - but a reader has to be aware that the unsent letter can become a plot point, if delivered when there was no intent to see it delivered. Back in The Shadow Rising a pair of contradictory letters caused some confusion, and if Egwene makes statements in the morning that contradict the letter, problems could occur for the alliance.

 

-Use of travelling to go straight to Elayne was nice, a good example of Egwene picking up on the great game and using the tools available to her in an intelligent and practical way. There's a line in here that did fall really flat for me, "Siuan would have killed for this ability." I have no doubt that similar expressions have been used throughout history from every civilization, but it's not really an expression that sits well with the common word choice in the Wheel of Time.

 

-The letter from Egwene to Rand shows a lot of how Egwene has changed but remains the same, even without the reader not knowing the precise contents of the letter. "The tone is . . . forceful," Elayne says, and Egwene responds by saying "He doesn't seem to respond to anything else." This is great work all around; Elayne is trying to be political and polite around her friend fellow ruler, making a mildly phrased suggestion to tone things back. Egwene's response shows that as intelligent as she is, she's falling into the same trap in dealing with Rand that everyone else did. Moiraine gave her the key to working well with Rand back in the Fires of Heaven, control through surrender. King Darlin did it very well. The use of force on Rand? In thirteen books, people who've tried to use force on Rand have never, ever, achieved their goals. Rand tends to respond to use of force by bringing down substantially greater force on the person trying to bully him. Those who've achieved their goals around Rand have been those who've used subtly. The reader knows that, Egwene should know that, but that inability to understand men in general and Rand in particular has been one of the major flaws of her character throughout the series.

 

-Following that, we see Egwene worrying if she can rely on Elayne, whether Elayne being smitten will interfere with her loyalties. There's also an implicit belief on Egwene's part that Andor's strongest alliance is with the White Tower, based on her personal friendship with Elayne and that Elayne is Aes Sedai. It's good to see that Egwene does recognize just how fragile the alliance is, even if she never fully articulates the thought.

 

I'm starting to run short on time, so I'll cut it short there, but you get the idea. There is a huge amount of subtle character building in this chapter, and some great language is used. There are problems with it as well - I mentioned one neologism earlier, there's also Rand saying "here's the thing" later. It's a little out of place in the rest of the writing. Overuse of ellipses was also a problem in the chapter. But the physiological aspect of where Rand is now, balancing a determination not to fall into old habits with some darkness lurking around the edges, Perrin being more comfortable in his role as a king than he realizes, Elayne showing her desire to be at the front lines and to be there with her people balanced out by finally learning some caution and agreeing to go no further than the area outside the city, and Egwene showing how much and how little she's learned, those things were all wonderful. The characterization acknowledges where the characters have been and where they currently are.

 

There are so many little things about this chapter that are great. Perrin's line about "I need to talk to Rand again," shortly after Rand drops some almost formal, Aes Sedai-sounding lines about "This day was scene, and our tests are known. We do not walk into them unaware" and Rand getting huffy about it. Rand showing some very naked calculation about how to deal with Elayne, and Perrin's disapproval. Rand and Perrin reverting back, just for a moment, to being two kids from the back end of nowhere ("Go jump in the Winespring Water"). The description of Rand's burden, as a river cutting a mountain, is very much a Jordan-esque description, neatly woven into a series of paragraphs that begin with what looks to be a AOLism, "Sure as the sea and the sky." The description of the Two Rivers camp being faintly brighter and warmer. Little things like that.

 

It's not Jordan's writing style; had Jordan been writing it we'd have greater description of the camp, perhaps some dogs running about, we'd know something about the smell of the food or decay in the air and the quality of the tents. We'd see men sharpening swords, women bustling about carrying water or fletching arrows, we'd hear about whether the ground under them was muddy or dry and cracked, we'd see some Aiel wandering about the Two River's camp in search of friends among Perrin's forces or just looking for someone to drink or trade with. We've lost that, and I do miss it. What we've gained is a greater focus on the characters themselves, their dialog and their relationships, and that's a fair trade.

 

I'm being completely serious when I say that this is one of the best chapters in the series to date, and I'm sorry for anyone who can't enjoy it like I did.

[Sid]

"would have killed for" isn't a new term in the WoT, but it's only used twice. Both times the person thinking it was extremely irritated and hungry. Perrin would have killed for a piece of bread, after Lini denied him breakfast and he finds out everyone thinks he slept with Berelain. Elayne would have killed for salty beef dripping with fat when she gets bland meals while everyone around her has good portions of the things she wants to eat, Avi's being forced to leave her, and her emotions are somewhat effected by pregnancy. Egwene's use of it here seems out of sorts in that it's pertaining to a positive thing and she's thinking about it in a positive way, certainly not at the last extreme of her patience. It did jar a bit, but that kind of thing isn't really a huge problem compared to what we've had to put up with in the past.

 

It's not Jordan's writing style; had Jordan been writing it we'd have greater description of the camp, perhaps some dogs running about, we'd know something about the smell of the food or decay in the air and the quality of the tents. We'd see men sharpening swords, women bustling about carrying water or fletching arrows, we'd hear about whether the ground under them was muddy or dry and cracked, we'd see some Aiel wandering about the Two River's camp in search of friends among Perrin's forces or just looking for someone to drink or trade with. We've lost that, and I do miss it. What we've gained is a greater focus on the characters themselves, their dialog and their relationships, and that's a fair trade.

 

I'm being completely serious when I say that this is one of the best chapters in the series to date, and I'm sorry for anyone who can't enjoy it like I did.

I think you do Jordan's writing style great injustice by saying this. He may well have mentioned things like you say (and almost certainly would have), but most of the time he did that sort of thing, it wasn't just to be descriptive. Being descriptive did give the reader a better feel for what a place looks like or sounds like, but he always mixed things in along with those descriptions that if you read into it a bit, he's actually telling you something else in addition to the first layer of the onion you see initially. The descriptiveness also often allowed the more minor characters to stay at least in the peripheral instead of disappearing entirely as many have in these last two books, to be replaced by cardboard cutouts and contest winners. People complain all the time about needless description which was actually a boon to people that decided to pay close attention. It fleshed out the story and what we're left with is more like a skeleton, as another poster has mentioned. What we've gained from this chapter in exchange is fan gratification and retcons. Perhaps it'll all become clear later why people are suddenly shifting their thoughts for apparently no reason in such a short amount of time by the time the series is over, but it's frustrating to read now.

 

To be honest, the first time I read it, I decided after that correction they made near the beginning (about the wines) that I wasn't going to really think about it too hard, and it was kind of fun to just 'see what happens'. But then you process it and questions come up, and they're not all theory related like they used to be when you read a new WoT chapter. A large chunk are more along the lines of 'that doesn't really jive with what we know about this or that', and due to the incongruities of the last two books, you can't take things at face value. It is bloody frustrating.

[Suttree]

AS an aside I hope you are not pointing to Ch. 1 from AMol as on of the "best chapters of the wheel of time to date". It offers decent fan gratification(blatantly so in the way Egwene is redeemed) but the flaws in both plot and prose have already been well addressed.

It's an absolutely amazing chapter, from top to bottom.

 

-It opens with one of the best "Wind" openings to take, bringing the reader that might have read TOM a year or more ago and who isn't rereading up to date on things that matter - the world is dying, Caemlyn is burning, refugees everywhere not even knowing where they're marching to. There's some absolutely lovely description in there - the section of Taren Ferry, contrasting the cobbled streets and redstone foundations with the feral dogs and the smoke that had long since stopped rising is an example of great writing. The end of the "wind" section provides a neat beat of contrast; after all of these images of fear, destruction and decay we find Rand laughing. Not in a crazy way, but in a warm way, laughing with a friend. An island of life in the dying world.

 

-The next section has Rand subtly comparing himself to Perrin. "Strange, how much about a man could change while his core remained exactly the same." We get a callback to Lanfear's appearance, and we don't have Rand obsess about it - but then as his thoughts return to it he asks Perrin to go for a walk with him. We get that Rand is really trying very hard not to fall into old habits, and that he wants to act like the person he knows he should act like. Meanwhile, Perrin is more comfortable around Rand now than he's been in a while, but he's still nervous to some extent - note how he puts his hand on Mah'alleinir as he walks next to Rand. Whether nervous of Rand or of the situation of the world in general, Perrin isn't as relaxed as he seems.

 

-There's some info drop, in a way that doesn't feel forced. They're waking, they hear blacksmiths working in the distance. With the Last Battle on the way, power forged weapons are being made, and there's a small personal anecdote about the Maiden's. It's an item that makes sense to add, and this is as good a time as any to add it. That the smiths are working well into the night hints at the urgency of the matter, and when factored in with the beginning of the prologue and the power that creation seems to have in turning back the Dark One's touch, it seems like a potentially significant item lightly touched.

 

-The info drop continues with Perrin and Rand mussing about the same things, coming at them from different directions. Rand thinks about the taste of seawater, and how he's learned to accept the internal changes he's faced as a part of him. Perrin sees the outward trappings, the fancy clothes and the external material changes. This is also a reflection of the nature of the two characters, how Perrin is very much a physical character and sees things in those terms, while Rand is much more of a philosopher, and sees the internal changes as the significant ones. Rand doesn't care about the fancy clothes. Whatever clothes he wears, he'd still be a king - which harkens back to the Eye of the World and The Great Hunt, where people remark that even if you put Rand in rags he'd still dominate the room. Meanwhile, Perrin can't really see his internal changes; though his core is the same, the changes he sees are that he's wearing nicer threads and has a big hammer that's totally impractical for smithing. Rand then gives a classic Aes Sedai answer, and Perrin nods - I think that if we were in his POV at the time, we'd probably get a bit about how the blacksmith's puzzle just clicked together - and Rand has basically answered that yes, he does believe in the changes.

 

-Rand's dream analogy shows clear allusion to Perrin's wolf dream; again, we know Perrin, and we can think of the lines of thought that he's going through when he sounds "oddly reserved." For the first time, we get a reasonably full and clear explanation for what it's like for Rand, remembering being Lews Therin, and the way it's worked from Rand's point of view shows that he's still worried about being considered mad. There's also a fascinating bit about how Rand considers the "mantle of the Dragon Reborn," that it's not a mask or an act, it's a part of himself that he's accepted. In earlier books, this sort of thought would have been accompanied by the thought that duty is heavier than a mountain, death lighter than a feather, but I don't think that the omission of that statement is in any way unintentional - Rand's viewpoint now has moved beyond that sentiment, he's no longer a death seeker longing to lay down his burden.

 

-We get a few hints about how the Dark One will be resealed. Rand's voice here sounds bang-on where Rand's voice sounded around The Fires of Heaven or early Lord of Chaos; he thinks that he sees a way forward, he knows it's a gamble and he's not letting the issue rest easily in his mind, but he's going to take the chance.

 

-There's some light humor and information dump with Balwer, who is indignantly in character, darkened slightly by Rand's internal monologue and statement about secrets kept close to his heart - leading the reader to wonder what secret is he talking about? Is it something we know already, like what happened on Dragonmount or his visit with Lanfear? Or is it how he intends to seal up the Dark One? Or is it the content of what he wants the next day? Or is it something related to his relationship with Min, Elayne and Aviendha?

 

-The quake, and Rand's response ("Rand felt it like a painful muscle spasm") show the link between the Dragon and the land, and his thought afterwards shows that his bad habits aren't entirely gone - he's just more aware of them, as he first things "I'm not ready" before correctly thinking "we're not ready." Rand has had a habit of trying to do everything himself, and that thought and correction shows that for all he's changed, his first impulse stays the same. The conclusion of Rand's interview with Balwer has the man standing taller - we see the cynicism creeping in at the edges of Rand's viewpoint again, knowing how to motivate people.

 

-Rand losing track of thought at the thought he would be a father was touching, as were his mental gymnastics as to why Elayne hadn't told him. He's making excuses for her, blaming himself but not placing blame on her. It's something he's done all series when confronted by actions from other people that don't fall in line with his expectations for them, he tries to rationalize or justify the action. He may be right, but this is still Rand al'Thor poking through, showing he's still very much a part of the Dragon.

 

-Egwene's letter is an interesting thing, because she's not certain if she'll send it. This makes sense for the reason Egwene provides - organizing her thoughts - but a reader has to be aware that the unsent letter can become a plot point, if delivered when there was no intent to see it delivered. Back in The Shadow Rising a pair of contradictory letters caused some confusion, and if Egwene makes statements in the morning that contradict the letter, problems could occur for the alliance.

 

-Use of travelling to go straight to Elayne was nice, a good example of Egwene picking up on the great game and using the tools available to her in an intelligent and practical way. There's a line in here that did fall really flat for me, "Siuan would have killed for this ability." I have no doubt that similar expressions have been used throughout history from every civilization, but it's not really an expression that sits well with the common word choice in the Wheel of Time.

 

-The letter from Egwene to Rand shows a lot of how Egwene has changed but remains the same, even without the reader not knowing the precise contents of the letter. "The tone is . . . forceful," Elayne says, and Egwene responds by saying "He doesn't seem to respond to anything else." This is great work all around; Elayne is trying to be political and polite around her friend fellow ruler, making a mildly phrased suggestion to tone things back. Egwene's response shows that as intelligent as she is, she's falling into the same trap in dealing with Rand that everyone else did. Moiraine gave her the key to working well with Rand back in the Fires of Heaven, control through surrender. King Darlin did it very well. The use of force on Rand? In thirteen books, people who've tried to use force on Rand have never, ever, achieved their goals. Rand tends to respond to use of force by bringing down substantially greater force on the person trying to bully him. Those who've achieved their goals around Rand have been those who've used subtly. The reader knows that, Egwene should know that, but that inability to understand men in general and Rand in particular has been one of the major flaws of her character throughout the series.

 

-Following that, we see Egwene worrying if she can rely on Elayne, whether Elayne being smitten will interfere with her loyalties. There's also an implicit belief on Egwene's part that Andor's strongest alliance is with the White Tower, based on her personal friendship with Elayne and that Elayne is Aes Sedai. It's good to see that Egwene does recognize just how fragile the alliance is, even if she never fully articulates the thought.

 

I'm starting to run short on time, so I'll cut it short there, but you get the idea. There is a huge amount of subtle character building in this chapter, and some great language is used. There are problems with it as well - I mentioned one neologism earlier, there's also Rand saying "here's the thing" later. It's a little out of place in the rest of the writing. Overuse of ellipses was also a problem in the chapter. But the physiological aspect of where Rand is now, balancing a determination not to fall into old habits with some darkness lurking around the edges, Perrin being more comfortable in his role as a king than he realizes, Elayne showing her desire to be at the front lines and to be there with her people balanced out by finally learning some caution and agreeing to go no further than the area outside the city, and Egwene showing how much and how little she's learned, those things were all wonderful. The characterization acknowledges where the characters have been and where they currently are.

 

There are so many little things about this chapter that are great. Perrin's line about "I need to talk to Rand again," shortly after Rand drops some almost formal, Aes Sedai-sounding lines about "This day was scene, and our tests are known. We do not walk into them unaware" and Rand getting huffy about it. Rand showing some very naked calculation about how to deal with Elayne, and Perrin's disapproval. Rand and Perrin reverting back, just for a moment, to being two kids from the back end of nowhere ("Go jump in the Winespring Water"). The description of Rand's burden, as a river cutting a mountain, is very much a Jordan-esque description, neatly woven into a series of paragraphs that begin with what looks to be a AOLism, "Sure as the sea and the sky." The description of the Two Rivers camp being faintly brighter and warmer. Little things like that.

 

It's not Jordan's writing style; had Jordan been writing it we'd have greater description of the camp, perhaps some dogs running about, we'd know something about the smell of the food or decay in the air and the quality of the tents. We'd see men sharpening swords, women bustling about carrying water or fletching arrows, we'd hear about whether the ground under them was muddy or dry and cracked, we'd see some Aiel wandering about the Two River's camp in search of friends among Perrin's forces or just looking for someone to drink or trade with. We've lost that, and I do miss it. What we've gained is a greater focus on the characters themselves, their dialog and their relationships, and that's a fair trade.

 

I'm being completely serious when I say that this is one of the best chapters in the series to date, and I'm sorry for anyone who can't enjoy it like I did.

 

First off Hope let me say thank you for this post. It is close to the first time I have seen someone offer a detailed explanation of why they liked it as opposed to just saying it was great and calling those who critique "haters". Suffice to say we have different ideas on subtlety and "lovely" description but I do really respect your thoughts on the matter. It's come to my attention in another thread that I really need to read through it again as much of it didn't stick the first time. It was just really hard for me to get past the obvious retcons, stuccoing over of issues from ToM, and blunt plotwork. Add to this the constant separation of inner monlogue and dialogue when someone is talking and it reads like a rough draft.

[mjasghar786]

How can people say there's no complaining for the sake of complaining?

Look at the chapter 1 spoiler thread - people complaining egghead has changed because people complained about how she was in the last 2 books! Like he was sucking up to the fan base

So complain about problems then complain that the problem gets addressed or complain there shouldn't have been a problem in the first place

This is why the Internet is rarely constructive and mostly good at being destructive

[mjasghar786]

Tbf I've not read other Sanderson stuff - does he rarely use internal dialogue? As the last books seem to be like that - either a chunk if internal or chunk of external with little of RJ intertwining

[Neophyte]

How can people say there's no complaining for the sake of complaining?

Look at the chapter 1 spoiler thread - people complaining egghead has changed because people complained about how she was in the last 2 books! Like he was sucking up to the fan base

So complain about problems then complain that the problem gets addressed or complain there shouldn't have been a problem in the first place

This is why the Internet is rarely constructive and mostly good at being destructive

 

It is the heavy-handed way in which the problem was corrected, while trying to pretend that the problem didn't exist in the first place. That is, I'll admit, mostly a matter of taste, but it is not "complaining for the sake of complaining."

[The Fisher King]

I was about to post my opinion - then I read Sid and Sutt's posts and now I don't. need to.

 

I will say to Hopefire that I am VERY glad she enjoyed it so much :)

 

I guess I just feel a need to address four points that keep being made by those who continue to be so offended at criticism.

 

1 You're GETTING the changes fans asked for in Chapter Uno!!! Does ANYTHING make you peeeooooplez HAPPY??!!!.......its not always so much WHAT Sanderson does things as it is HOW. We have. over TEN THOUSAND pages of experience now at Jordan doing things with a deft, subtle, natural and organic touch when interweaving significant moments. Brandon is young and may well develop that touch one day. Just because he hasn't yet doesn't mean we cant feel jarred by the difference.

 

2 Just be THANKFUL you're getting an ending at ALL, DOOOODEZ!!! ...LoL. We ARE. But can we still not have high standards for how we would like to see that ending handled?

 

3 You just cant expect Sanderson to write like Jordan did!! ...You know, I have actually NEVER seen anyone say that THAT was their expectation. What disappoints us is when BRANDON cuts corners or doesn't use all the resources available to him.

 

4 Haterz just gonna Hate, DUDEZ!!!...Perphaps the most absurd of all. Sanderson has been treated magnificently. And NOTHING was wanted more than to see him do an AMAZING job with this series so many of us love so much.

 

 

Fish

[Werthead]

Its clear from Brandon's statements that a lot of plot in these books came from him. For example, in tGS, Egwene's very first meeting with Elaida was to turn into a confrontation which ended up with Egwene imprisoned. Brandon instead added several chapters, and split the meeting with Elaida into two. Its also fairly clear the Mesaana plotline in ToM was actually to be fitted with the events in tGS. But to accomodate it in ToM, we got any number of nonsense chapters on the Gawyn-Egwene relationship, the Hall trying tactics it had already tried, etc. That's a huge chunk of Egwene's storyline right there that were clearly added to spread her story out into more books. Jordan clearly had no such plans.

 

etc...

 

Interesting. What is the source of this info?

 

If accurate, this would back up the suggestion that it was Tor who pushed Sanderson into expanding the finale from two to three books (and Sanderson was clearly unhappy when he announced the split) by adding filler. Personally I did not notice anything too filler-like in the last two novels, but the idea that certain plot points could have been handled more quickly and indeed were planned to be by Jordan himself is interesting.

 

We have. over TEN THOUSAND pages of experience now at Jordan doing things with a deft, subtle, natural and organic touch when interweaving significant moments.

 

I think we have about five thousand pages of him doing that, and then losing the ability to do that reliably (witness the quite impressive drop in writing quality between the epic depiction of Dumai's Wells and the muddled, dull mess of the Cleansing) before getting it back - somewhat - at the end of Knife of Dreams.

 

Criticising Sanderson is fine. But I think criticising him whilst claiming that Jordan was a paragon of writing ability is somewhat lop-sided. We are, after all, talking about Book Fourteen of a series that could have been wrapped up in ten books or less with tighter planning and writing discipline.

[The Fisher King]

Wert...do you believe WOT could have been done (and done well) in saaaaay eight books of around 600-650 pages each? In other words - a 5, 000 page saga?

 

 

Fish

[Werthead]

Wert...do you believe WOT could have been done (and done well) in saaaaay eight books of around 600-650 pages each? In other words - a 5, 000 page saga?

 

A version of it could have been, certainly. That version would have lacked a lot of the elements present now (taking a chainsaw to much of the internal politics of the White Tower and the rebel Aes Sedai, the hunters in the Tower plot, Faile being a prisoner of the Shaido for seven years etc), some of which would have been sorely missed and some not so much, but I think an acceptable version of it could have been done in eight. Clearly Robert Jordan and Tom Doherty did as well, since the original plan (at least once Doherty read Jordan's original trilogy outline and called BS on its planned length) was for six.

 

I think a version closer to what we have now but with merely the more needless fat trimmed away could have been done in ten books, certainly. I've been looking into this for the WoT TV adaptation essay project (which will resume at some point in the future) which would require a fair bit of such trimming and it's doable without damaging the overall storyline.

[thisguy]

You know, rereading the books, not a whole lot seemed to go into Faile being kidnapped and the battle with the Shaido.

[Suttree]

Criticising Sanderson is fine. But I think criticising him whilst claiming that Jordan was a paragon of writing ability is somewhat lop-sided. We are, after all, talking about Book Fourteen of a series that could have been wrapped up in ten books or less with tighter planning and writing discipline.

 

This is a very important point that we need to remember. Well said Wert.

[The Fisher King]

Agreed. I personally wish Mr Jordan would have severely trimmed the Salidar Aes Sedai and Faile's Kidnapping storylines AND held off on all New Spring-related work until the end of WOT. And possibly allowed an outside editor (not that Harriet isnt awesome) to look over each book. ... If just those four things had been done...what kind of situation might we hypothetically be looking at NOW?

 

 

Fish

[he who comes with a bong]

Agreed. I personally wish Mr Jordan would have severely trimmed the Salidar Aes Sedai and Faile's Kidnapping storylines AND held off on all New Spring-related work until the end of WOT. And possibly allowed an outside editor (not that Harriet isnt awesome) to look over each book. ... If just those four things had been done...what kind of situation might we hypothetically be looking at NOW?

 

 

Fish

 

We would of probally already have read the last book lol.

[fionwe1987]

Interesting. What is the source of this info?

Verious interviews, twitter posts, etc. I will admit that some of it might be second hand information, but I'm fairly sure most of this is in the Theoryland database. I can get all the quotes I can find, if you want, but it would have to be later.

If accurate, this would back up the suggestion that it was Tor who pushed Sanderson into expanding the finale from two to three books (and Sanderson was clearly unhappy when he announced the split) by adding filler. Personally I did not notice anything too filler-like in the last two novels, but the idea that certain plot points could have been handled more quickly and indeed were planned to be by Jordan himself is interesting.

I don't know about that. Like you said, the "filler" wasn't exactly typical filler. Its just that Jordan likely planned to have some of these as flashback episodes rather than being actual plot points that happen fully on screen. Mat's entire tGS plot, including meeting Verin, could have been off screen. This was DomA's idea, by the way. But I can certainly agree with it. Based on the way RJ wrote KoD, I think he was indeed at a point where he wasn't interested in detailing all these events.

Criticising Sanderson is fine. But I think criticising him whilst claiming that Jordan was a paragon of writing ability is somewhat lop-sided. We are, after all, talking about Book Fourteen of a series that could have been wrapped up in ten books or less with tighter planning and writing discipline.

This, I can agree with. But I think the fact that Jordan was not a paragon of writing sometimes makes Sanderson's missteps a lot harder to swallow. Perhaps some part of the anger is that the actually good parts of Jordan's writing: the carefully considered plot, the consistent characterization, the introspection of the characters- all take a hit with Sanderson. And what Sanderson brought to the table: a pacier, more exciting story, can't entirely be credited to him.

 

But none of this should be taken to mean others' would do it better, or that no one should have done this at all. For all the flaws in these books, they still remain a rare exception to the rule that a new author can never successfully complete a series. And that this is the case with the completion of a series as complex and vast as WoT makes it all the more remarkable.

[MarkDiLillo]

Honestly, the only flaw I find in Jordans writing is a tendancy to be too descriptive. Otherwise, I would call him a master author in every sense of the word. I'm sure some others disagree, but if you compare his writing to 99% of author fiction writers it really is very good. There are other writing styles that are more direct and have a faster pace, but its important to remember pacing and other aspects are a part of the individual authors writing style and that is subjective.

[fionwe1987]

Honestly, the only flaw I find in Jordans writing is a tendancy to be too descriptive. Otherwise, I would call him a master author in every sense of the word. I'm sure some others disagree, but if you compare his writing to 99% of author fiction writers it really is very good. There are other writing styles that are more direct and have a faster pace, but its important to remember pacing and other aspects are a part of the individual authors writing style and that is subjective.

What he did not have is anything above serviceable prose. There are few moments of really good writing in WoT, and they only highlight the utter lack of them elsewhere. Many places, the writing is clunky. Not what is being written, but the how of it. It wasn't ever quite as bad as Sanderson as consistently, but it was there.

 

The rest, the kind of characterization, the gentle pace (even very early in the series, WoT could never be accused of being fast paced) are more stylistic choices. I prefer how Jordan handled these compared to Sanderson, but that's a personal choice.

[MarkDiLillo]

Honestly, the only flaw I find in Jordans writing is a tendancy to be too descriptive. Otherwise, I would call him a master author in every sense of the word. I'm sure some others disagree, but if you compare his writing to 99% of author fiction writers it really is very good. There are other writing styles that are more direct and have a faster pace, but its important to remember pacing and other aspects are a part of the individual authors writing style and that is subjective.

What he did not have is anything above serviceable prose. There are few moments of really good writing in WoT, and they only highlight the utter lack of them elsewhere. Many places, the writing is clunky. Not what is being written, but the how of it. It wasn't ever quite as bad as Sanderson as consistently, but it was there.

 

The rest, the kind of characterization, the gentle pace (even very early in the series, WoT could never be accused of being fast paced) are more stylistic choices. I prefer how Jordan handled these compared to Sanderson, but that's a personal choice.

 

Please go into detail. I'm not trying to be a smartass either. I'd love to see examples and explanations why his prose is just average.

 

Or a link to some places where I can learn how to distinguish good/bad prose with some conrete examples.

[fionwe1987]

Honestly, the only flaw I find in Jordans writing is a tendancy to be too descriptive. Otherwise, I would call him a master author in every sense of the word. I'm sure some others disagree, but if you compare his writing to 99% of author fiction writers it really is very good. There are other writing styles that are more direct and have a faster pace, but its important to remember pacing and other aspects are a part of the individual authors writing style and that is subjective.

What he did not have is anything above serviceable prose. There are few moments of really good writing in WoT, and they only highlight the utter lack of them elsewhere. Many places, the writing is clunky. Not what is being written, but the how of it. It wasn't ever quite as bad as Sanderson as consistently, but it was there.

 

The rest, the kind of characterization, the gentle pace (even very early in the series, WoT could never be accused of being fast paced) are more stylistic choices. I prefer how Jordan handled these compared to Sanderson, but that's a personal choice.

 

Please go into detail. I'm not trying to be a smartass either. I'd love to see examples and explanations why his prose is just average.

 

Or a link to some places where I can learn how to distinguish good/bad prose with some conrete examples.

I'll be perfectly honest here. This is one of the things I can sense, but don't really have the tools to critique. I may be able to pick out random paragraphs and point to flaws and clunky sections in it, but its not going to be close to what you'll get from someone who actually does this for a living.

 

So, I'm going to leave it with saying that based on my personal reading experience, Jordan doesn't really come close to matching the prose of any number of authors. And since I can't prove it, I'm okay with that being called my opinion, and not a fact.

 

ETA: That said, just compare any of Jordan's writing with this piece. Its the start of Satanic Verses. I've always felt that it was the reason I got so into this book:

 

‘To be born again,’ sang Gibreel Farishta tumbling from the heavens, ‘first you have to die. Ho ji! Ho ji! To land upon the bosomy earth, first one needs to fly. Tat-taa! Taka-thun! How to ever smile again, if first you won’t cry? How to win the darling’s love, mister, without a sigh? Baba, if you want to get born again …’ Just before dawn one winter’s morning, New Year’s Day or thereabouts, two real, full-grown, living men fell from a great height, twenty-nine thousand and two feet, towards the English Channel, without benefit of parachutes or wings, out of a clear sky.

 

‘I tell you, you must die, I tell you, I tell you,’ and thusly and so beneath a moon of alabaster until a loud cry crossed the night, ‘To the devil with your tunes,’ the words hanging crystalline in the iced white night, ‘in the movies you only mimed to playback singers, so spare me these infernal noises now.’

 

Gibreel, the tuneless soloist, had been cavorting in moonlight as he sang his impromptu gazal, swimming in air, butterfly-stroke, breast-stroke, bunching himself into a ball, spreadeagling himself against the almost-infinity of the almost-dawn, adopting heraldic postures, rampant, couchant, pitting levity against gravity. Now he rolled happily towards the sardonic voice.

 

Jordan never wrote like that. Not everyone can, of course. And nor does everyone have to. But in my head, there's this perfect version of WoT, where Jordan's ability at storytelling is matched to the lyrical beauty of Rushdie's prose, or even Dickens's.