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You cannot walk so long in the shadow...


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I think this may have already been discussed, but I've just searched 9 pages of thread titles in spoilers and didn't come across it so...

 

It's been mentioned several times that you cannot walk so long in the shadow that you cannot come back into the light - but the only time we really see this is with Ingtar, I'm not convinced Verin really counts as she never completely left the light. I think this has to mean one of the Forsaken comes back to the Light (whose been walking in the Shadow longer?). But their aren't many candidates left:

 

I think the time involved should rule out the M'Hael. So that leaves us with Moridin, Hessalem (sp?), Cyndane, Moghedian and Demandred (can't think of anyone else on the top of my head)

 

I think the mindtraps may rule out Cyndane (besides the only reason for her to turn is if she had ever genuinely loved LTT and I don't think she did, although the last passage in ToM means she can't be ruled out completely) and Moghedian (and Moggy wouldn't have the courage). I can't think of any reason for Hessalem to turn.

 

That leaves Morridin and it's perhaps reasonable that if someone managed to out philosophise him than he may regain hope - maybe even have a memory of light? :wink: But he's been the big bad since forever, so it would be hugely disappointing if he does turn back.

 

So I think that when Rand muses with regret on Demandred in Chapter 1 it's setting up his return to the good guys. Maybe they have a showdown somehow - if he is Roedran and he does turn up at FoM then their's potentially confusion enough for them to talk (and possibly for Rand to apologise for LTT) before the fighting starts.

 

Just curious as to what people think.

 

 

Cheers

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I have always though Demandred was set up to betray the Shadow. I don't know about turning back to the Light, but definitely abandoning the Shadow.

 

There is a heap of foreshadowing for his betrayal of the Shadow. I will have to compose a full theory on it at some point. I may just do it in the near future.

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Moghedien. For a couple of reasons.

 

-It's already been set up that she has had an on-screen association with several of the good guys. Not a good or happy association, but still. Demandred walking into the camp is a different matter from Moghedien - Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene know her.

 

-She's partially conquered her fear as of the aftermath of the battle for the Cleansing. Also, she's been given back her mindtrap, so I think it's quite physically possible for her to walk away - which is more than can be said about Cyndane right now.

 

-Beyond everything else, Moghedian wants to survive. If she learns that the Dark One plans to annihilate everything that ever is and was and will be, she'll switch sides without hesitation IMO.

 

-She's gotten a lot of sympathetic POV chapters over the course of the series.

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I like Graendal. Not sincerely, but out of self-interest. She's never been kind toward those who don't give her what she wants, and Shadar Haren stepped wrong in punishing her.

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Moghedien. For a couple of reasons.

 

-It's already been set up that she has had an on-screen association with several of the good guys. Not a good or happy association, but still. Demandred walking into the camp is a different matter from Moghedien - Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene know her.

 

-She's partially conquered her fear as of the aftermath of the battle for the Cleansing. Also, she's been given back her mindtrap, so I think it's quite physically possible for her to walk away - which is more than can be said about Cyndane right now.

 

-Beyond everything else, Moghedian wants to survive. If she learns that the Dark One plans to annihilate everything that ever is and was and will be, she'll switch sides without hesitation IMO.

 

-She's gotten a lot of sympathetic POV chapters over the course of the series.

 

But if she was to walk into the camp she'd be recognised by people that have reason to fear her, they all treated her badly, Moggy tried to balefire Nyn..., and thus would be likely to have a, uh, negative reaction. If Demandred walked in, unless disguised, Rand is the only one who could ID him, and his thoughts in chapter 1 were mostly regretful, not vengeful - although that may well have changed once Rand learned of the attack on Caemlyn.

 

That's an excellent point about the cleansing and her desire to survive tho.

 

I like Graendal. Not sincerely, but out of self-interest. She's never been kind toward those who don't give her what she wants, and Shadar Haren stepped wrong in punishing her.

 

I see the self-interest thing as a possibility for most of the Forsaken once they learn the truth, but I think the turn to the Light has to be more than just fighting for them. Shadar Logath technically fought for the Light, but I don't think anyone would argue that their motives were right, or that fighting that way would constitute a return. Ingtar seemed to show a real desire to walk in the light, and then his actions/sacrifice proved it - as did Verins, but I suspect his/and her intentions counted a lot for it (- maybe the only way to truly walk in the light is to sacrifice yourself - maybe that's the only way to prove you really mean it?)

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http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/64135-elan-morin-tedronai-or-mierin-eronaile/ - there's a discussion on this topic exactly. Like I wrote there, I don't think Moridin would turn back to the Light. Apart from philosophical reasons, does he have any other for doing that? I mean, maybe he just doesn't want to live, there's emptyness in him. Rand has already found his reason for fighting - love. Well... (actually it was suggested that Ishy once loved Lanfear, hence his hate for LTT :smile:)
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I thought I'd read it elsewhere, but couldn't remember which thread - at least it passes the 15 day rule.

 

I agree that Moridin's unlikely - the only thing that really gives it credance is the link between him and Rand, but storywise it would almost bring the whole series crashing down, unless done extraordinarily well - maybe it's the GRRMesque thing he was talking about? Two things GRRM does is kill people unexpectedly - difficult to do in the last book in a similar style - and take nice people, 'heroes' (or as close as GRRM gets to them) and turn them bad and vice versa.

 

 

As you can tell I'm far from certain who it will be, although the Demandred stuff in the first chapter seems quite strong to me.

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I see the self-interest thing as a possibility for most of the Forsaken once they learn the truth, but I think the turn to the Light has to be more than just fighting for them. Shadar Logath technically fought for the Light, but I don't think anyone would argue that their motives were right, or that fighting that way would constitute a return. Ingtar seemed to show a real desire to walk in the light, and then his actions/sacrifice proved it - as did Verins, but I suspect his/and her intentions counted a lot for it (- maybe the only way to truly walk in the light is to sacrifice yourself - maybe that's the only way to prove you really mean it?)

 

Except Graendal is the one to be stated as being the one who would flip if it served her interest [by Sammael]. She is also the one who was most clear about her reasons for serving the Shadow [immortality an power] and what would happen if they were threatened [as they have been].

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So I think that when Rand muses with regret on Demandred in Chapter 1 it's setting up his return to the good guys. Maybe they have a showdown somehow - if he is Roedran and he does turn up at FoM then their's potentially confusion enough for them to talk (and possibly for Rand to apologise for LTT) before the fighting starts.

 

If Dem really is Roedran, as the safe money seems to suggest, then his reveal is going to need to include more then just "he's got Murandy's army". I think Brandon and maybe even Jordan hinted that there is more to what Dem has been plotting then just one army. If he does have his hand in all kinds of different Shadow sided plots, a turn to the Light could set up a good plot arc where Dem informs Rand of some particularly nasty plots the Shadow has aimed at him that he needs to diffuse.

 

If Moridin turned, it would be mixed up with the body swap, and likely be a "deathbed" conversion. Which makes it both too complicated to consider(to me, at least) and have far less impact on the plot.

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I see the self-interest thing as a possibility for most of the Forsaken once they learn the truth, but I think the turn to the Light has to be more than just fighting for them. Shadar Logath technically fought for the Light, but I don't think anyone would argue that their motives were right, or that fighting that way would constitute a return. Ingtar seemed to show a real desire to walk in the light, and then his actions/sacrifice proved it - as did Verins, but I suspect his/and her intentions counted a lot for it (- maybe the only way to truly walk in the light is to sacrifice yourself - maybe that's the only way to prove you really mean it?)

 

Except Graendal is the one to be stated as being the one who would flip if it served her interest [by Sammael]. She is also the one who was most clear about her reasons for serving the Shadow [immortality an power] and what would happen if they were threatened [as they have been].

 

I'd forgotten that bit about Sammael, *muses*

 

So I think that when Rand muses with regret on Demandred in Chapter 1 it's setting up his return to the good guys. Maybe they have a showdown somehow - if he is Roedran and he does turn up at FoM then their's potentially confusion enough for them to talk (and possibly for Rand to apologise for LTT) before the fighting starts.

 

If Dem really is Roedran, as the safe money seems to suggest, then his reveal is going to need to include more then just "he's got Murandy's army". I think Brandon and maybe even Jordan hinted that there is more to what Dem has been plotting then just one army. If he does have his hand in all kinds of different Shadow sided plots, a turn to the Light could set up a good plot arc where Dem informs Rand of some particularly nasty plots the Shadow has aimed at him that he needs to diffuse.

 

If Moridin turned, it would be mixed up with the body swap, and likely be a "deathbed" conversion. Which makes it both too complicated to consider(to me, at least) and have far less impact on the plot.

 

I like Miks theory on Amel, but if Roedran is Demandred then the attack on Caemlyn allows him to enter a pretty disorganised camp and mount a surprise attack on an unprepared enemy. I think it's been stated that he prefers bold tactics, and this would seem like a pretty bold move, not that this precludes him turning, but it does allow the possibility of a meeting before they talk.

 

I guess it could well be a deathbed conversion - ala Catholic Church confession style, but I don't see it being Moridin.

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Given that Moridin is the only one who seems to really know what it is that the Dark One wants to do, I think if it becomes widely known to the Forsaken that he really wants to destroy reality, almost any of the Forsaken could be a candidate to turn back to the Light. They want power and immortality, not eternal annihilation.

 

That said, I think it likely that only one at most turns back and I won't be surprised if none do. It's hard to unlearn the desire something you've wanted for decades at the least. I go back and forth between Demandred and Moghedien personally.

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It's Rand/LTT. He obviously chose wrong and almost ruined the world during the breaking. He set the taint upon the world and destroyed his kin. Everything the Dragon did led more to current events than even lanfear creating the bore. Demandred knew this so he sided with the Dark One to play out his part during the next age. How better to best LTT than to show him how to succeed when he couldn't himself. Demandred will show Rand/LTT how to unbreak a world that LTT broke. Why else has Demandred poised as a Logain with a Mirror of Mist.

 

Not a real serious statement just something I would find fun. Who says a male can't fool a women with a weave showing a so called stilling. Nynaeve never cured Logain, he just let her think he did!

 

Taim/Demandred are really the 2 "chosen" I want to see the most from in AMoL. Now saying chosen instead of forsaken makes me think I lean towards the dark one in WoT since it was unintended.

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Now saying chosen instead of forsaken makes me think I lean towards the dark one in WoT since it was unintended.

 

I'm not sure if it was intended, or if he just chose language as he was thinking about it, but I noticed that my references to groups changed like RJ's did. I refer to them as Chosen, and I refer to Aes Sedai as "sisters". Which means, either RJ was good at making us connect with groups OR I'm natually Black Ajah.

 

That last option gets confusing, being male...

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I think the time involved should rule out the M'Hael. So that leaves us with Moridin, Hessalem (sp?), Cyndane, Moghedian and Demandred (can't think of anyone else on the top of my head)

Slayer is a valid candidate, if we're not discussion forsaken only. I've always wanted to see more of him - just how evil he is and how much humanity remains in him.

To be honest, I don't think anyone will turn, though it would be nice to see it. If I had to bet on one of them, it would probably be Demandred, just for Rand's thought in chapter 1.

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Man I hope Demandred doesn't turn. That would be really lame in my opinion. Dem has been built up by BS as the best Chosen for this book and everything about him will pay off. If he turns back to the Light then all of the Chosen will have been absolutely worthless as real villains. Hopefully Rand says something like "I'm really sorry I was such a douche for so long. Please forgive me Barid. I should've embraced you instead of competing with you. Barid, I was just really lucky. You really are the brilliant one." And then Dem is like "No way I can't bloody believe that you really think that. Goodbye Lews Therin!" And then Rand falls down as Dem's sword leaves his body. That would be cool.

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I think the time involved should rule out the M'Hael. So that leaves us with Moridin, Hessalem (sp?), Cyndane, Moghedian and Demandred (can't think of anyone else on the top of my head)

Slayer is a valid candidate, if we're not discussion forsaken only. I've always wanted to see more of him - just how evil he is and how much humanity remains in him.

To be honest, I don't think anyone will turn, though it would be nice to see it. If I had to bet on one of them, it would probably be Demandred, just for Rand's thought in chapter 1.

 

Discussion's not really limited to anyone, the only reason I've only included the Forsaken is the time they've walked in the Shadow. Slayers, what 50-60?

 

Man I hope Demandred doesn't turn. That would be really lame in my opinion. Dem has been built up by BS as the best Chosen for this book and everything about him will pay off. If he turns back to the Light then all of the Chosen will have been absolutely worthless as real villains. Hopefully Rand says something like "I'm really sorry I was such a douche for so long. Please forgive me Barid. I should've embraced you instead of competing with you. Barid, I was just really lucky. You really are the brilliant one." And then Dem is like "No way I can't bloody believe that you really think that. Goodbye Lews Therin!" And then Rand falls down as Dem's sword leaves his body. That would be cool.

 

I agree with the sentiment, either Moridin or Demandred turning would be disappointing, but if a Forsaken was to turn I'd want it to be significant.

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Slayer seems to enjoy being evil more than anyone besides Semi. Even Graendal was more 'I just want to feel good' than actually enjoying destroying people.Demandred is only on the side of evil because he didn't like the people on the side of good. Lanfear wants to be in charge and couldn't get that in the Light.

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I don't think any of the Foresaken will turn back to the Light or flip; however, I do think that one of them will have a moment or single action/inaction that will benefit the Light. For example, one of them could have an opportunty to strike a deat blow to Rand, but will turn and walk away instead, or he/she will have an chance to balefire Ny or Mor, but instead will will just watch them. I expect it to be subtle to most readers, but obvious to the hardcore fans.

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I thought it would be Moridin. Being described as a most logical man. I think he analyzed everything logically and found that the only way to win was to 'betray' the Light until such time he can return the favor. His actions prevent other, more sadisticor cruel Forsaken, from become Nae'blis.

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Moridin is the most sadistic of them all. PETA certainly wouldn't be happy with his treatment of rats. Or the thousands of (potential, if it is imagination, it is worse) of tortured souls at his mercy in the Dreamshard.

 

Ishamael was a cruel man, even if he did turn for logic reasons.

 

 

He does seem to be affected by Rand, so the possibility still remains, but if not for that, he is a cruel and insane one.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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I believe Moridin might turn. But only in one way. Rand being philosofic (sp?) and convincing him that the Light CAN defeat the Dark One forever, instead of what Moridin thinks, a draw every time until the DO wins.

 

(if the staff/admins mind me using colored posts outside Social Groups, just PM me please. I'm normally not here, so I don't know it)

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Moridin is the most sadistic of them all. PETA certainly wouldn't be happy with his treatment of rats. Or the thousands of (potential, if it is imagination, it is worse) of tortured souls at his mercy in the Dreamshard.

 

Ishamael was a cruel man, even if he did turn for logic reasons.

 

 

He does seem to be affected by Rand, so the possibility still remains, but if not for that, he is a cruel and insane one.

 

Actually, doesn't Graendal say that Ishamael (and herself) had to do some adjusting when they turned to the Shadow? I took this to mean that he wasn't into torturing and murdering at first, and then started to like it once he had been at it for a while.

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Maybe the Dark One himself..... He has apparently walked in the shadow for all the other turnings of the Wheel. Not to turn this into a 'is this the true Last Battle' debate, but this incarnation of the wheel is calling it the Last Battle. So maybe it is the Dark One who no longer walks in the shadow

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Maybe the Dark One himself..... He has apparently walked in the shadow for all the other turnings of the Wheel. Not to turn this into a 'is this the true Last Battle' debate, but this incarnation of the wheel is calling it the Last Battle. So maybe it is the Dark One who no longer walks in the shadow

 

I've thought that if the Dark One could think even a little that Light is right, the Shadow would lose forever. However, DO doesn't seem to be that kind of source of evil. We know almost nothing of His thoughts, so it would seem very implausible if He'd think about Light.

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