Dark Prophecy from ToM

[flinn]

Back to WOT, having reread TOM, the Broken Wolf has to be Itulrade

We have a winner.

 

Also in the city with the Guardian (far madding I think). The borderlanders have that prophecy and Rand says something like....

 

"No, this prophecy was LIKE THE OTHERS. A declaration of what MIGHT HAPPEN, not advice."

 

I would think the Dragon would know something about prophecies and according to the dragon there are prophecies (like the others) that are what MIGHT happen, not what is going to happen.

[Suttree]

Back to WOT, having reread TOM, the Broken Wolf has to be Itulrade

We have a winner.

 

Also in the city with the Guardian (far madding I think). The borderlanders have that prophecy and Rand says something like....

 

"No, this prophecy was LIKE THE OTHERS. A declaration of what MIGHT HAPPEN, not advice."

 

I would think the Dragon would know something about prophecies and according to the dragon there are prophecies (like the others) that are what MIGHT happen, not what is going to happen.

 

Not sure how Ituralde's destruction would "bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself".

[FarShainMael]

Back to WOT, having reread TOM, the Broken Wolf has to be Itulrade

We have a winner.

 

Also in the city with the Guardian (far madding I think). The borderlanders have that prophecy and Rand says something like....

 

"No, this prophecy was LIKE THE OTHERS. A declaration of what MIGHT HAPPEN, not advice."

 

I would think the Dragon would know something about prophecies and according to the dragon there are prophecies (like the others) that are what MIGHT happen, not what is going to happen.

 

Not sure how Ituralde's destruction would "bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself".

 

I think they may be two separate, unconnected statements:

 

'Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and

be consumed by the Midnight Towers.'

 

The Broken Wolf..

 

"And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."

 

someone else..

 

Another point to consider. Is it destruction of him or by him?

 

And does 'destruction' mean 'death' in this context necessarily?

 

Recall that what we are given is a transcript of collected prophecies, so there may be some interpretation by those who collected them and those who transcribed them.

[yoniy0]

"No, this prophecy was LIKE THE OTHERS. A declaration of what MIGHT HAPPEN, not advice."

Lanfear once said a similar thing. And yet, every last prophecy we've seen has come to pass in one way or another (or rather, we've yet to see one fail); that begs the question: does Rand know what he's talking about? Is he even saying what we think he is? (For example, he might've meant that a prophecy isn't advice because there's no foolproof way of interpreting it prior to its fulfillment; that it only might happen could be a product of the one loophole we're all aware of, that of the DO breaking free.)

[Neophyte]

That's hardly unusual [Removed]

 

And that, boys and girls, is called "being rude" while engaging in a "personal attack."

 

What it's called is the truth.

 

PS—if my post was a personal attack, then so is yours, and so are several of your preceding posts. But some of us are not so trigger-happy with the report button.

 

Terez - I didn't touch the report button. I say what I feel is appropriate, and if the mods come for me, so be it. Fortunately, I don't need to resort to personal attacks to make my point. I can stick with referring to what has been said, rather than castigating the person saying it, to make my point. I'm sorry if that difference was not apparent to you.

 

 

Endnote: And in the interim, FarShainMaiel has provided an example of uncertainty in what is supposed to be the most reliable kind of prophecy of all. Direct from the stories. How interesting ... I wonder if you will just ignore that too ...

 

I already addressed it. Guess you ignored that.

 

Very good. You addressed hers. Interesting how you still can't say the same thing about mine.

[thisguy]

Back to WOT, having reread TOM, the Broken Wolf has to be Itulrade

We have a winner.

 

Also in the city with the Guardian (far madding I think). The borderlanders have that prophecy and Rand says something like....

 

"No, this prophecy was LIKE THE OTHERS. A declaration of what MIGHT HAPPEN, not advice."

 

I would think the Dragon would know something about prophecies and according to the dragon there are prophecies (like the others) that are what MIGHT happen, not what is going to happen.

 

Not sure how Ituralde's destruction would "bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself".

 

I think they may be two separate, unconnected statements:

 

'Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and

be consumed by the Midnight Towers.'

 

The Broken Wolf..

 

"And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."

 

someone else..

 

Another point to consider. Is it destruction of him or by him?

 

And does 'destruction' mean 'death' in this context necessarily?

 

Recall that what we are given is a transcript of collected prophecies, so there may be some interpretation by those who collected them and those who transcribed them.

I like that; your line of thinking. While I assume it's the broken wolf's destruction the prophecy speaks of, that's a very good point. I feel the same way about your question of whether destruction = death. A person may be considered broken and not dead.

 

As for "And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself" - if it were all the men (people) in the world, the closest any character to come to affecting all men would be Rand, as he's needed to fight the DO. If it's not him then I would venture a guess that it's just a lot of people. That could be Ran, Perrin, Ituralde, Lan... probably most of the characters that people have speculated may be the broken wolf. Even Slayer might be able to fill the role as it's possible that 1000s of DFs would be shaken by his destruction.

 

It's also hard to say - if one of the characters were destroyed in the presence of a large army (or any group of people) in some horrible way, it might shake the will of those people.

I wonder if it's Perrin. Will is equated with strength in TAR. Maybe, his destruction would shake the will of his compatriots in TAR, if they're on a mission there. Who knows???

[FarShainMael]

Not sure how Ituralde's destruction would "bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself".

 

I think they may be two separate, unconnected statements:

 

'Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and

be consumed by the Midnight Towers.'

 

The Broken Wolf..

 

"And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."

 

someone else..

 

Another point to consider. Is it destruction of him or by him?

 

And does 'destruction' mean 'death' in this context necessarily?

 

Recall that what we are given is a transcript of collected prophecies, so there may be some interpretation by those who collected them and those who transcribed them.

I like that; your line of thinking. While I assume it's the broken wolf's destruction the prophecy speaks of, that's a very good point. I feel the same way about your question of whether destruction = death. A person may be considered broken and not dead.

 

Exactly! Recall that in the ToM glossary it describes Graendal as having been responsible for the deaths of Aran'gar and Asmodean, and the destruction of Mesaana. Mesaana is still alive, but she's a vegetable.

 

As for "And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself" - if it were all the men (people) in the world, the closest any character to come to affecting all men would be Rand, as he's needed to fight the DO. If it's not him then I would venture a guess that it's just a lot of people. That could be Ran, Perrin, Ituralde, Lan... probably most of the characters that people have speculated may be the broken wolf. Even Slayer might be able to fill the role as it's possible that 1000s of DFs would be shaken by his destruction.

 

It's also hard to say - if one of the characters were destroyed in the presence of a large army (or any group of people) in some horrible way, it might shake the will of those people.

I wonder if it's Perrin. Will is equated with strength in TAR. Maybe, his destruction would shake the will of his compatriots in TAR, if they're on a mission there. Who knows???

 

If it's destruction by him, consider Mat's cannon (see ToM29 for the reactions of Birgitte and Elayne; Also Egwene's dreams in ACoS10 and CoT20) - and Perrin's Hammer.

[elric]

my vote is Perrin

 

a. wolf from obvious reasons :)

b. it was told to graendal before she was ordered to kill Perin

c. the D.O DONT want to kill Rand , he want to kill Mat and Perrin becouse without them Rand cant win (there a quote about a 3 legged thingy Morridin use , and there the seeing of min about lights against the darkness)

d. all of Perrin family Died-> know death

e. Perrin is the hearth and will of 2 river who are the remain of Manthhern (sp ??) who was the Epitome of heart and will in its time (an apperently in these times as well)

[flinn]

Back to WOT, having reread TOM, the Broken Wolf has to be Itulrade

We have a winner.

 

Also in the city with the Guardian (far madding I think). The borderlanders have that prophecy and Rand says something like....

 

"No, this prophecy was LIKE THE OTHERS. A declaration of what MIGHT HAPPEN, not advice."

 

I would think the Dragon would know something about prophecies and according to the dragon there are prophecies (like the others) that are what MIGHT happen, not what is going to happen.

 

Not sure how Ituralde's destruction would "bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself".

 

I think they may be two separate, unconnected statements:

 

'Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and

be consumed by the Midnight Towers.'

 

The Broken Wolf..

 

"And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."

 

someone else..

 

Another point to consider. Is it destruction of him or by him?

 

And does 'destruction' mean 'death' in this context necessarily?

 

Recall that what we are given is a transcript of collected prophecies, so there may be some interpretation by those who collected them and those who transcribed them.

I like that; your line of thinking. While I assume it's the broken wolf's destruction the prophecy speaks of, that's a very good point. I feel the same way about your question of whether destruction = death. A person may be considered broken and not dead.

 

As for "And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself" - if it were all the men (people) in the world, the closest any character to come to affecting all men would be Rand, as he's needed to fight the DO. If it's not him then I would venture a guess that it's just a lot of people. That could be Ran, Perrin, Ituralde, Lan... probably most of the characters that people have speculated may be the broken wolf. Even Slayer might be able to fill the role as it's possible that 1000s of DFs would be shaken by his destruction.

 

It's also hard to say - if one of the characters were destroyed in the presence of a large army (or any group of people) in some horrible way, it might shake the will of those people.

I wonder if it's Perrin. Will is equated with strength in TAR. Maybe, his destruction would shake the will of his compatriots in TAR, if they're on a mission there. Who knows???

Well once again we cant downplay the effect it would have... Rand himself says....

 

"And I saw him trying so hard to destroy that.(Light in the soldiers defying the dark one).He knows that if he could break them, it would mean something. Something much more than Maradon. Breaking the spirit of men....he thirsts for that. He struck far harder than he otherwise would have because he wanted to break my spirit."

[thisguy]

Back to WOT, having reread TOM, the Broken Wolf has to be Itulrade

We have a winner.

 

Also in the city with the Guardian (far madding I think). The borderlanders have that prophecy and Rand says something like....

 

"No, this prophecy was LIKE THE OTHERS. A declaration of what MIGHT HAPPEN, not advice."

 

I would think the Dragon would know something about prophecies and according to the dragon there are prophecies (like the others) that are what MIGHT happen, not what is going to happen.

 

Not sure how Ituralde's destruction would "bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself".

 

I think they may be two separate, unconnected statements:

 

'Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and

be consumed by the Midnight Towers.'

 

The Broken Wolf..

 

"And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."

 

someone else..

 

Another point to consider. Is it destruction of him or by him?

 

And does 'destruction' mean 'death' in this context necessarily?

 

Recall that what we are given is a transcript of collected prophecies, so there may be some interpretation by those who collected them and those who transcribed them.

I like that; your line of thinking. While I assume it's the broken wolf's destruction the prophecy speaks of, that's a very good point. I feel the same way about your question of whether destruction = death. A person may be considered broken and not dead.

 

As for "And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself" - if it were all the men (people) in the world, the closest any character to come to affecting all men would be Rand, as he's needed to fight the DO. If it's not him then I would venture a guess that it's just a lot of people. That could be Ran, Perrin, Ituralde, Lan... probably most of the characters that people have speculated may be the broken wolf. Even Slayer might be able to fill the role as it's possible that 1000s of DFs would be shaken by his destruction.

 

It's also hard to say - if one of the characters were destroyed in the presence of a large army (or any group of people) in some horrible way, it might shake the will of those people.

I wonder if it's Perrin. Will is equated with strength in TAR. Maybe, his destruction would shake the will of his compatriots in TAR, if they're on a mission there. Who knows???

Well once again we cant downplay the effect it would have... Rand himself says....

 

"And I saw him trying so hard to destroy that.(Light in the soldiers defying the dark one).He knows that if he could break them, it would mean something. Something much more than Maradon. Breaking the spirit of men....he thirsts for that. He struck far harder than he otherwise would have because he wanted to break my spirit."

Where is this, please?

[FarShainMael]

It's in ToM32, 'A Storm of Light'. Rand has gone back to Tear, and is telling Min about the battle at Maradon.

[thisguy]

Thanks, FSM. Good find, Flinn.

[Neophyte]

After some review, I've changed my vote from Perrin to Bashere. The wolf's head baton, plus the "something dark" that Min saw around him ... and the fact that he could be put in command of a key position during the Last Battle all make him seem likely to me. If his position is overrun, it could be a serious blow to morale (as well as a big tactical problem). Heck, Rand saying what he did about the fall of Maradon and breaking the spirits of men could be direct foreshadowing - Bashere might well end up in charge of Maradon's future defense.

 

(Acknowledgements to the others who got to this conclusion first.)

 

And of course, when Tenobia goes down in her bloody spear blaze of glory, and Bashere gets wiped out, the path is clear for Perrin and Faile.

[yoniy0]

I'm not sure falling in combat against an army of Shadowspawn qualifies as being consumed by the Midnight Towers. What do you guys think?

[thisguy]

I'm not sure falling in combat against an army of Shadowspawn qualifies as being consumed by the Midnight Towers. What do you guys think?

I don't know. Do we know if the midnight towers are the 13 in seanchan for sure? If they are, it would seem someone has to fall to the Seanchan... unless I'm missing something.

[Suttree]

I'm not sure falling in combat against an army of Shadowspawn qualifies as being consumed by the Midnight Towers. What do you guys think?

I don't know. Do we know if the midnight towers are the 13 in seanchan for sure? If they are, it would seem someone has to fall to the Seanchan... unless I'm missing something.

 

Midnight towers or the forsaken.

[thisguy]

I'm not sure falling in combat against an army of Shadowspawn qualifies as being consumed by the Midnight Towers. What do you guys think?

I don't know. Do we know if the midnight towers are the 13 in seanchan for sure? If they are, it would seem someone has to fall to the Seanchan... unless I'm missing something.

 

Midnight towers or the forsaken.

Good point. The Towers represent the Forsaken.

[yoniy0]

Yes well, I ask again. Does being killed in combat qualify?

[thisguy]

Yes well, I ask again. Does being killed in combat qualify?

 

"fall and be consumed by the midnight towers..." Possibly. But, since you've brought it up, you made me think. Hallelujah! ;)

 

The fall could be a fall from grace. Consumed could be going to the dark side.

 

The whole thing could be balefire, too.

[Neophyte]

Yes well, I ask again. Does being killed in combat qualify?

 

Well, obviously I think so. If I devise a plan that results in your death, I imagine that I could be said to have "consumed" you.

 

(Where's Luckers? There's got to be something dirty in that ...)

 

Anywho ...

 

If, for example, Demandred is in charge of an army that overruns Bashere's, then I would certainly think that qualifies as being "consumed by the Midnight Towers." Though, just for the sake of selective literalism, it would be interesting to see Demandred go all Tantalus and serve up a Pelops-like Bashere stew at the next Forsaken tea party.

[thisguy]

Doesn't Egwene have a dream foretelling about the Towers? They break and one stands and grows? Are any of the Forsaken compared to a wolf? I don't think so.

 

If the "vermin", "fallen blacksmith", etc are who people think they are. I don't think it's Rand or Perrin. I don't think Fain is ever compared to a wolf in any way either.

 

Ituralde, Bashere, Lan and Slayer, I feel are the best choices. If Lan, Ituralde or Bashere went evil during a battle, I think the will of men would break.

[Neophyte]

Doesn't Egwene have a dream foretelling about the Towers? They break and one stands and grows? Are any of the Forsaken compared to a wolf? I don't think so.

 

Yes. This dream is why many of us equate the "Midnight Towers" with the Forsaken. Her Dream in ToM ch 3 directly reflects the status of the Forsaken. The actual physical Towers of Midnight are in Imfaral, in Seanchan.

 

If the "vermin", "fallen blacksmith", etc are who people think they are. I don't think it's Rand or Perrin. I don't think Fain is ever compared to a wolf in any way either.

 

Ituralde, Bashere, Lan and Slayer, I feel are the best choices. If Lan, Ituralde or Bashere went evil during a battle, I think the will of men would break.

 

Well, Bashere and Ituralde aren't Darkfriends right now, or Rand's newfangled Darkfriend detection skills would have caught them. And we have far too much interior Lan for him to be a Darkfriend. So I doubt it is a matter of "going evil" so much as being destroyed by evil.

 

I'm not sure that Lan's fall would shake men's will - pretty much everyone expects him to die, including himself, I think. And I choose Bashere over Ituralde only because of the wolf baton and Min's viewing. Bashere has been one of Rand's longest public and loyal supporters, outside of the Two Rivers group. His death, especially if it is the result of some kind of betrayal, or a major thrust by the Shadow, could have the effect predicted.

 

Perhaps Bashere is placed in overall command of the Armies of Light. He is acknowledged a great Captain, and has been working with Rand the longest. The Borderlanders would accept him, Perrin would accept him, and while I think Mat might be better, Mat may be busy with the Seanchan. If that is the case (if, I say) the Shadow overrunning Light-side Central Command could be really bad for morale.

[yoniy0]

If I devise a plan that results in your death, I imagine that I could be said to have "consumed" you.

Only if I were the target of your plan. If I was merely roadkill, i.e., your plan resulted with my death but that wasn't its objective, then I don't think so.

 

Doesn't Egwene have a dream foretelling about the Towers? They break and one stands and grows?

That is Ishamael, dying then returning to be named nae'blis.

[thisguy]

Doesn't Egwene have a dream foretelling about the Towers? They break and one stands and grows? Are any of the Forsaken compared to a wolf? I don't think so.

 

Yes. This dream is why many of us equate the "Midnight Towers" with the Forsaken. Her Dream in ToM ch 3 directly reflects the status of the Forsaken. The actual physical Towers of Midnight are in Imfaral, in Seanchan.

 

If the "vermin", "fallen blacksmith", etc are who people think they are. I don't think it's Rand or Perrin. I don't think Fain is ever compared to a wolf in any way either.

 

Ituralde, Bashere, Lan and Slayer, I feel are the best choices. If Lan, Ituralde or Bashere went evil during a battle, I think the will of men would break.

 

Well, Bashere and Ituralde aren't Darkfriends right now, or Rand's newfangled Darkfriend detection skills would have caught them. And we have far too much interior Lan for him to be a Darkfriend. So I doubt it is a matter of "going evil" so much as being destroyed by evil.

 

I'm not sure that Lan's fall would shake men's will - pretty much everyone expects him to die, including himself, I think. And I choose Bashere over Ituralde only because of the wolf baton and Min's viewing. Bashere has been one of Rand's longest public and loyal supporters, outside of the Two Rivers group. His death, especially if it is the result of some kind of betrayal, or a major thrust by the Shadow, could have the effect predicted.

 

Perhaps Bashere is placed in overall command of the Armies of Light. He is acknowledged a great Captain, and has been working with Rand the longest. The Borderlanders would accept him, Perrin would accept him, and while I think Mat might be better, Mat may be busy with the Seanchan. If that is the case (if, I say) the Shadow overrunning Light-side Central Command could be really bad for morale.

I don't think it's Lan, but for the sake of discussion. ;) You're one of the Malkieri, or other borderlanders, who came to Lan to ride to Tarwin Gap. You're al RaRa! We're gonna do it! Malkieri rides again! And stuff.

Maybe 10000 of you make it to the Gap. You're fighting and Lan goes down, how do you feel? Is your will shaken?

 

I do agree with you, though: Bashere seems the best choice. How about Min's viewing of the darkness around him?

[Neophyte]

I don't think it's Lan, but for the sake of discussion. ;) You're one of the Malkieri, or other borderlanders, who came to Lan to ride to Tarwin Gap. You're al RaRa! We're gonna do it! Malkieri rides again! And stuff.

Maybe 10000 of you make it to the Gap. You're fighting and Lan goes down, how do you feel? Is your will shaken?

 

I do agree with you, though: Bashere seems the best choice. How about Min's viewing of the darkness around him?

 

Is my will shaken? Probably not, since I'm likely dead at that point.

 

But seriously, would Lan's death shake the will of any of his followers who survived? Sure. I just don't think there will be enough of those to satisfy the prophecy. But I acknowledge that's purely a matter of opinion.

 

 

If I devise a plan that results in your death, I imagine that I could be said to have "consumed" you.

Only if I were the target of your plan. If I was merely roadkill, i.e., your plan resulted with my death but that wasn't its objective, then I don't think so.

 

I'm not sure why any distinction in intentionality would make the deceased any less "consumed." If I go to a buffet for dinner, and my "plan" is to eat a bunch of shrimp, but I happen to see some chicken wings and they get chomped too, I've still consumed them, even though that wasn't my "plan."

 

Well, maybe that isn't the best metaphor ... for my waistline!

 

But the intent of the "consumer" (the bad puns won't stop!) doesn't make the "consumed" any less "consumed."

 

But hey, I'm not going to fight to the death on that one. It would work, in my opinion. What actually happens? We'll see.