Chapter 2: Plot Specific

[Rufae]

Didn't Rand imply that LTT the taint induced madness that allowed him to talk to his previous life? To paraphrase Rand's comments, "Wouldn't it be ironic if the Dark One's backlash is what enabled his final defeat?"

[TristanWebb]

Real LTT vs construct isn't solved by that. Either way he was intergrated with his past lives in VoG which was led to by the taint.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Alright, as Yoniy0 said, for the love of Light, no more Construct v real debate. Take that to the long buried thread or create another one if you wish.

[BFG]

Shies away from the real/construct discussion...

 

Why are Androl and co. still alive? That's inexcusable right there, so I don't pay too much mind to the logic behind keeping Logain for this long but turning Mezar and what's-his-face first. Perhaps they just figure nothing at all can go wrong for them, so they're taking their time and having fun.

 

It actually makes sense at the beginning for Androl and Two River Lads not to be turned - Androl won't be considered strong enough (as far as Taim is concerned his Talent is useless with the Dreamspike, and having been trained by Forsaken he's likely to value strength and Androl's weak. Two Rivers because if Rand did come back then Taim is likely to think Rand would notice any differences with them more easily than with the others. Certainly before a Cup of Sleep he viewed Rand as 'soft' and it's uncertain how much his views would have changed. Not sure whose in the rest of Androl's party.

 

I'm wondering if the double link might actually be the thing that causes being 13x13'd to be undone. Based on what RJ himself said about being 13x13 he said it promoted the dark impulses in a person to being stronger. He states that it is possible to turn back to the light, but unlikely to happen unaided So if someone could virtually read your thoughts they might be able to pass on emotions etc (look at the closeness of Elayne and Birgitte two women bond).

 

I feel this may lead to the 13x13ing to prove completely ineffective on them, leading to them deducing the reason and thus starting a mass bonding of Asha'man, this may also be supported by the fact Taim does not allow Pevara to bond any full Asha'man.

 

I can see this. Good call.

 

I can also see this. It fits well with the whole idea of yin and yang, of men and women working together to achieve a common goal. Not exactly sure if it would undo a 13x13 though, that would seem too neat a fix. I mean come on, someone has to die or turn evil...

 

I like this to, although I'm not sure it would work.

 

Aren't the bulk of the Asha'man still essentially neutral? Loyal to Taim yes, but neither natural darkfriends nor turned. He has to move slow to keep Logain's Androl's faction from growing. Things should move to a head quickly, if for no other reason that Taim and Logain are running out of book to square off in (although I continue to think the bulk of Logain's glory will come post-series).

 

Not to mention Rand via Logain has deployed a bulk of Asha'man throughout Rand'land. To hold off the Seanchan, and fight along the Blight.

 

The whole BT bugs me a bit as a plot hole by RJ to begin with. Granted Rand's time is precious. But we see him in T'A'R spying on Elayne, Egwene, etc.. We see him jumping around for his battles with various FS. Yet, he doesn't spend ANY time checking in on the BT. A BT who he entrusted to Taim, someone he barely trusted from the moment he met him. Above any of the things he has going on, making an army of channelers (the most powerful force in all of R'land) was not even worth regularly checking up on??! Even spying on??

 

With 200-300 Ashaman, he could silence any Seanchan force. Any trolloc force. Etc etc.. Why wouldn't that be like #2 on the list besides fighting the FS... Yet he takes so little personal interest in ensuring their loyalty and ability. This makes ZERO sense even to an insane Rand.

 

It would be like the President of the US taking zero interest of the development / security / deployment of our nuclear weapons... Though not talked about, I would guess every President since Truman looks very closely at the reports regarding our nuclear status/capability on a very regular basis. And would know instantly if something were wrong there... One does not implenent a program for the most powerful weapons in existence and then not keep tabs on it..

 

Rand does not want to face Taim because it makes LTT go nuts.The more insane Rand becomes the more difficult for him to stop LTT from seizing the power so it would make sense to avoid the one person which makes LTT totally lose it.

 

Ahh the old head in the sand approach on the eve of TG. Makes sense...

 

He is insane, "sense" can hardly be attributed to things he does for several books.

 

I agree with a previous poster, so long as Rand got the Ashaman he needed when he needed them he wouldn't care about what was happening in the Tower, that changed after DragonMount.

 

Yes, but we have to take everything into the context of Androl's unusual Talent. That--like Perrin, Min and Hurin--might be unknown in the AoL.

 

This, and everyone that posted the same :)

[shadowofomioc]

Personally I think Androl is Logain.

 

He has just been masking himself to be able to see exactly what is happening in the Tower and know that he senses the trouble and knows whats up, he is gathering his " army " and working to spring a trap.

[OptimusPrime]

Didn't Rand imply that LTT the taint induced madness that allowed him to talk to his previous life? To paraphrase Rand's comments, "Wouldn't it be ironic if the Dark One's backlash is what enabled his final defeat?"

 

He did say that but tbh I think this is yet another case of Rand accepting the simplest explanation.

 

We have much information contradicting what Rand says. First off, Mat has memories of other men, acts on their instincts EXACTLY like Rand does, yet isnt crazy, doesnt lose it. Second, Rand says his madness is the memories, but there is the milky white stuff around his brain which SUPPOSEDLY is suppressing the madness. Yet, he still has the memories, clearer now more than ever, while the madness (which is supposedly the memories) is supposedly supressed.

 

Whole situation isnt as simple as Rand thinks, even now.

 

I still maintain that the memories themselves are not the madness.

[herid]

Didn't Rand imply that LTT the taint induced madness that allowed him to talk to his previous life? To paraphrase Rand's comments, "Wouldn't it be ironic if the Dark One's backlash is what enabled his final defeat?"

 

He did say that but tbh I think this is yet another case of Rand accepting the simplest explanation.

 

We have much information contradicting what Rand says. First off, Mat has memories of other men, acts on their instincts EXACTLY like Rand does, yet isnt crazy, doesnt lose it. Second, Rand says his madness is the memories, but there is the milky white stuff around his brain which SUPPOSEDLY is suppressing the madness. Yet, he still has the memories, clearer now more than ever, while the madness (which is supposedly the memories) is supposedly supressed.

 

Whole situation isnt as simple as Rand thinks, even now.

 

I still maintain that the memories themselves are not the madness.

+1 on all of this. We also need to remember that Rand is still mad. The madness still affects his judgement just in less obvious ways than before.

I also want to point out the following. In the past Rand's access to the memories jumped when he channeled huge amounts of saidin, sometimes to the point where he had a hard time distinguishing himself from LTT. This is mentioned several times throughout the series.

There are two possible explanations for this. One is that this is because of the taint which was seeping into his brain in large amounts when he channeled a lot. and two that it was just because he channeled a lot of saidin and the taint was simply making the memories come up in a mad way as LTT's voice but Rand, being the Dragon, would have gotten them gradually anyway. I believe it's the latter. The first time this jump in the access to LTT occurrs is at the end of tEoTW (he isn't sure who he is afterwards and even has a hard time recognizing Egwene). However, in that sequence he was mostly channeling using the Eye which had completely clean saidin. So the taint was not much if at all in play there. The same is true of the final jump in his access to the memories during Rand's transformation on the dragonmount. Saidin was cleansed by then.

[yoniy0]

I'm not sure that I see the correlation you're talking of between Rand's channeling large amounts of the Power and either his madness or access to his memories as LTT. In the two cases you mentioned, for example, the former was probably no more than the regular experience of channeling without guidance, the latter his Dragon-ness no longer hindered by the taint (as a consequence of coming to terms with who and what he was).

[Carnacarn]

The avi/elayne children debate is easily solved. When avi goes through the second time, her descendents walk into caemlyn to speak to Elaynes descendents. No passing off of the babes involved.

 

Gateways/dreamspikes at the BT... Taim can still Travel. He goes to the Forsaken meeting. I know its not Chap 2 but no one else has mentioned it

[mbuehner]

The avi/elayne children debate is easily solved. When avi goes through the second time, her descendents walk into caemlyn to speak to Elaynes descendents. No passing off of the babes involved.

 

Gateways/dreamspikes at the BT... Taim can still Travel. He goes to the Forsaken meeting. I know its not Chap 2 but no one else has mentioned it

 

Assumedly, Taim controls the dreamspike in the BT, or at least knows the key.

[MasterAblar]

Personally I think Androl is Logain.

 

He has just been masking himself to be able to see exactly what is happening in the Tower and know that he senses the trouble and knows whats up, he is gathering his " army " and working to spring a trap.

 

Not sure if you're serious, but Androl showed up in the same scene as Logain back in WH. And Androl was shown to be pretty weak, whereas Logain is extremely strong.

[Carnacarn]

Assumedly, Taim controls the dreamspike in the BT, or at least knows the key.

 

Possibly, but the way I remember it in ToM was it was placed there by Isam in addition to the one placed near Perrin. Maybe the True Power isn't affected by the DS? This could mean Rand is the only one capable of saving the BT.

[TristanWebb]

No, in ToM Greandal was told the other was in use, nothing about where besides gateways not working in the BT.

[Carnacarn]

My mistake then

[The Fisher King]

Logain is totally Adorol. The only reason they were seen in the same room that time was because Logain was using...wait...what was it called?...a Mountain of Mist?

 

 

Fish

[SonOfBattles20]

Logain is totally Adorol. The only reason they were seen in the same room that time was because Logain was using...wait...what was it called?...a Mountain of Mist?

 

 

Fish

 

I think you're onto something with this Mountain of Mist... reminds me of something I read looking through that old Cadsuane's chastity belt ter'angreal theory.

[JonathanEisfeld]

This has probably already been covered multiple times elsewhere...but I think there was a ton of foreshadowing in this chapter...coupled with the nature of Androl's characterization thus far, that he will be the leader of the Black Tower after TG. His weakness in the power will be the ultimate Yin to to strength-stratification Yang of the Aes Sedai.

[MasterAblar]

This has probably already been covered multiple times elsewhere...but I think there was a ton of foreshadowing in this chapter...coupled with the nature of Androl's characterization thus far, that he will be the leader of the Black Tower after TG. His weakness in the power will be the ultimate Yin to to strength-stratification Yang of the Aes Sedai.

 

Logain would have to die for that to happen.

[yoniy0]

Fish, that was uncalled for.

[herid]

I'm not sure that I see the correlation you're talking of between Rand's channeling large amounts of the Power and either his madness or access to his memories as LTT. In the two cases you mentioned, for example, the former was probably no more than the regular experience of channeling without guidance, the latter his Dragon-ness no longer hindered by the taint (as a consequence of coming to terms with who and what he was).

channeling without guidance? why would that produce an effect like that? Nobody else experiences it as far as I can tell. I thought the fact that the more Rand channels the more access he has to LTT memories was quite well established. Is there some argument about it? I was just saying that this becomes even more pronounced when he channels large amounts of power. I'm pretty sure this one is not new either. I think there are many examples of this, especially early on. When he uses Callandor in TSR to kill the Trollocs in the Stone he gets an unconscious thought transfer that allows him to channel the weaves he does not know

Just beneath the ceiling, right above his head, air slowly began to revolve, spinning faster, milling in streaks of red and black and silver. It roiled and collapsed inward, boiling harder, whining as it whirled and grew smaller still.

Sweat rolled down Rand’s face as he stared up at it. He had no idea what it was, only that racing flows he could not begin to count connected him to the mass. It had mass; a weight growing greater while the thing fell inward on itself. Callandor flared brighter and brighter, too brilliant to look at; he closed his eyes, and the light seemed to burn, through his eyelids. The Power raced through him, a raging torrent that threatened to carry all that was him into the spinning. He had to let go. He had to. He forced his eyes open, and it was like looking at all the thunderstorms in the world compressed to the size of a Trolloc’s head. He had to . . . had to . . . had to . . .

Now. The thought floated like cackling laughter on the rim of his awareness. He severed the flows rushing out of him, leaving the thing still whirling, whining like a drill on bone. Now.

-TSR, ch 10.

 

When he later fights Asmodean using the Chedan Kal he gets what I think is one of the early actual thought transfers (maybe even THE first?)

Beyond, Chaendaer’s peak looked different, lower, and on the other side of the valley some of the mountains were definitely lower. Where one mountain had stood, a fan of stone and dirt stretched across the north end of the valley.

I destroy. Always I destroy! Light, will it ever end?

--TSR ch 58

It's perhaps debatable if this is LTT or not but LTT definitely shows up shortly thereafter when Rand thinks in tFoH, ch 2 that Ilyena never gave him the rough side of her tounge.

There is more of the same in tFOH during the battle for Cairhien. He channels a lot and for a long time using the fat man angreal and has an extended recollection about Sammael.

You are certainly right about Rand's dragonmount transformation in tGS but this doesn't mean that channeling a lot there doesn't play any role. I think it does.

[yoniy0]

channeling without guidance? why would that produce an effect like that? Nobody else experiences it as far as I can tell.

I don't know. Why would it give you the worst fever, or make you giddy for no apparent reason? If we've seen more people learn to channel on their own (all we get from Nynaeve is a description of one of her sicknesses), perhaps we'd know more.

 

I thought the fact that the more Rand channels the more access he has to LTT memories was quite well established. Is there some argument about it?

It's just that I never thought of it that way, and I don't at all find it compelling.

 

When he uses Callandor in TSR to kill the Trollocs in the Stone he gets an unconscious thought transfer that allows him to channel the weaves he does not know

Even before that, he channeled certain things without knowing where he picked it up. And in like manner, conversing with Lanfear was enough to provoke a memory. I don't think it's anything specific to channeling, but rather simply being in familiar situations. And, naturally, progression over time.

 

When he later fights Asmodean using the Chedan Kal he gets what I think is one of the early actual thought transfers (maybe even THE first?)

Beyond, Chaendaer’s peak looked different, lower, and on the other side of the valley some of the mountains were definitely lower. Where one mountain had stood, a fan of stone and dirt stretched across the north end of the valley.

I destroy. Always I destroy! Light, will it ever end?

--TSR ch 58

Hmm, why would that be LTT? He did destroy an awful lot by the end, but he hardly has "always". And his madness can't really be considered a pattern, now can it? It seems to me that he contemplates the same thing Moiraine would tell him in the beginning of TFoH, that everywhere he went he left ruin in his wake.

 

LTT definitely shows up shortly thereafter when Rand thinks in tFoH, ch 2 that Ilyena never gave him the rough side of her tounge.

Well yes, but that was provoked by Egwene, I'd think. Was it really that soon after events in Rhuidean?

 

There is more of the same in tFOH during the battle for Cairhien. He channels a lot and for a long time using the fat man angreal and has an extended recollection about Sammael.

This is the only example you've provided that I find fit the bill, but since I don't see a pattern up until this point, it just seems like a natural progression, coupled with his fatigue (which meant he didn't plan to say what he has; we know from his first meeting with Taim that he knows more than he usually lets on about the Forsaken).

[Suttree]

I thought the fact that the more Rand channels the more access he has to LTT memories was quite well established. Is there some argument about it?

 

No argument against but then again I can't recall an argument for either. It certainly can't be considered "well established".

[The Fisher King]

SonOfBattles and Yoniyo:

 

1 I meant Mask of Mirrors!! (and yes, I was just being silly)

 

2 Its ALWAYS called for!!! ;-)

 

 

Fish

[sumquy]

hmmm. lot of interesting comments. my own thoughts on hearing that passage were that Weilyns' capture means Taim et al. know where Logain will be tomorrow and intend to ambush him.

[Kevin Freeheart]

I destroy. Always I destroy! Light, will it ever end?

 

Hmm, why would that be LTT? He did destroy an awful lot by the end, but he hardly has "always".

 

LTT had the same "bubbling up" from Rand that Rand had from LTT. Considering that he, and "his pride" led to the Breaking of the World, I can imagine why a madman might conflate "everything, literally, the face of the planet" with "always". From the march to SG, until 3000+ years later, everything LTT touched went to hell. And he KNEW it, with seepage from Rand.

 

BUT... I actually think the most damning evidence that this IS LTT isn't the "always" part. It's the last part wanting it to end. It wasn't until Rand went to DM in VoG that he want it to end, but LTT called for it many times after this moment.