Chapter 2: Plot Specific

[MasterAblar]

I don't really think this... but maybe Logain's glory genuinely will come in serving the Shadow--or perhaps being the first to brought back from the Shadow to the Light.

 

Would you really call that glory though? For the one who brought him back perhaps, but for Logain?

[Valley of Death]

Can you bring someone back to the light afer they got 13x13?

[Luckers]

I don't really think this... but maybe Logain's glory genuinely will come in serving the Shadow--or perhaps being the first to brought back from the Shadow to the Light.

 

Would you really call that glory though? For the one who brought him back perhaps, but for Logain?

 

Unless he brings himself back. Rand's light has interesting effects on Darkfriends, and Logain due to his ability to see ta'veren has seen at least some aspect of Rand's light long before anyone else, a reality which may now be inhanced by Rand's Post-VoG Lightshow, and we don't know what effect it would have on the Turned. Perhaps seeing it would allow him enough clarity to fight his way clear of the inversion influence of being 13'd

 

Again, I don't really think this, just talking... lol.

 

 

Can you bring someone back to the light afer they got 13x13?

 

The ambiguos answer we got on this didn't really answer it, but did say that the people of Randland would like to believe so.

[joeron bigelow]

question - who taught Logain how to bond women?

[Suttree]

question - who taught Logain how to bond women?

 

Ashaman at the BT figured out how to bond their wives while experimenting widely with the weaves. It's how they found to add the "extra bit" compulsion aspect.

[Durinax]

What if logain leads the turned groups back to the light, that would be a lot of glory.

[herid]

it's not a simple matter of leading. RJ explained that turning completely changes the personality and they won't want to go back to the Light. It would have to be something involving channeling or else Rand's mysterious new powers as luckers suggested. It does seem very unfair that these people have been turned through no fault of their own and seemingly have no way back right now.

Most of the other things in WOT are symmetric or can be undone. But in any case Logain's gory likely has to do with leading male channelers in the LB after Rand dies. there is a dream of Egwene pointing in that direction.

[Aulduron]

I think Weilyn is faking it, as part of Logains trap. (I hate audio books. I can't absorb the words like I can when reading them)

[b3arz3rg3r]

I think Weilyn is faking it, as part of Logains trap. (I hate audio books. I can't absorb the words like I can when reading them)

 

Impossible. There is no way Weilyn is so good an actor he can pretend to have lost his soul by being forcibly turned and have the ones who turned him believe it.

[kght22]

I think Weilyn is faking it, as part of Logains trap. (I hate audio books. I can't absorb the words like I can when reading them)

 

Impossible. There is no way Weilyn is so good an actor he can pretend to have lost his soul by being forcibly turned and have the ones who turned him believe it.

not to mention taim would know, he would have likely been in the loop when it was done.

[Rufae]

Could Weilyn be Logain in a Mask of Mirrors inverted weave? Rand could have taught Logain how to accomplish this. The Logain could strike when least expected.

[Rufae]

And just how exactly is that supposed to work? Physically I mean. Min said Avi was going to have four kids at once and Elayne is four or five months pregnant I believe is Aviendha supposed to keep Elayne's twins in her womb for a total of 13 o14 months just so they can be born at the same time as her own twins? And how are they supposed to transplant two babies?

 

Perhaps Elayne is 5-6 mos along and as she dies, Avi wants to save the children, Rand's children, and so she bonds the babies. This gives them strength enough to survive. Or perhaps she does the First Sister bonding the WO's used on she and Elayne thereby attaching the babies to herself spirtiually. A 6 month old fetus can survive outside fo the womb if helped.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I suppose it's possible, i just find it hard to see how anyone could act like a twisted Shadow of a person, they would have to be a damn good actor.

[kght22]

i just don't see how weilyn could be acting. not because of acting per say, but because i see no way that taim would not know if he had been turned or not. wouldn't taim have been told by a fade or something? just do not see how taim would not be in the loop, and while taim does visit morridin in the world of dreams through a gateway, i find it unlikely that he cannot get around the dream spike, i would expect that he has a key as morridin hinted at existing in tom, he can likely come and go at will.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Indeed, and as soon as Taim saw Weilyn he would no it was a ruse, and he would be screwed. Plus, what does it gain? Scaring the crap out of your allies, while Taim knows that it is a lie.

[TonyMacaroniGlenholmes]

question - who taught Logain how to bond women?

 

Ashaman at the BT figured out how to bond their wives while experimenting widely with the weaves. It's how they found to add the "extra bit" compulsion aspect.

 

I thought the extra bit was the 'orgasm' they had while being bonded.

[yoniy0]

No, it's definitely the add-on to the Bond which allows the Bonder to compel the Bonded. It was the name of the chapter in which Logaine Bonded Toveine.

[GB]

i thought the extra bit was the kiss :p

[hjustinpace]

Aren't the bulk of the Asha'man still essentially neutral? Loyal to Taim yes, but neither natural darkfriends nor turned. He has to move slow to keep Logain's Androl's faction from growing. Things should move to a head quickly, if for no other reason that Taim and Logain are running out of book to square off in (although I continue to think the bulk of Logain's glory will come post-series).

[Barid Bel Medar]

Aren't the bulk of the Asha'man still essentially neutral? Loyal to Taim yes, but neither natural darkfriends nor turned. He has to move slow to keep Logain's Androl's faction from growing.

 

Indeed, I think this explains why they haven't just taken and Turned Androl and co. Doing so would be extremely suspicious to the others who are just normal and have no idea Taim is a Darkfriend. As for Pevara, she probably just got lucky that Androl came when he did, she was probably the next to go - because what Asha'man would pay attention to the wellbeing of the Aes Sedai? - but now she is constantly with him and his group.

 

Weilyn and Kurin of course, are different, since they have been on a secret mission with Logain, so ambushing Logain's party and capturing them, turning them, then having them turn up at the BT would be relatively smooth.

[herid]

@Osan'gar's Razor, yes, the bulk of the Asha'man are neutral. They are certainly not DFs, at least they didn't use to be. It's not really clear though how fast Taim has been turning people. But Taim doesn't have to declare for the shadow or bring in Trollocs or anything of that sort when confronting Androl's faction.

edit: ninjad by BBM.

 

One other (unrelated) point I noticed. I found it somewhat strange that Androl doesn't know how to undo the Warder bond. Even if he doesn't know the required weaves himself he should know that he can ask others. Some of the Asha'man definitely know (Rand and Logain discuss this in COT, ch 24) and the most likely ones would be the married men who created the bond in the first place.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I suspect that he secretly doesn't want to undo the bond. What he said was true, but he could probably ask someone, but he would rather not. Also with only Emarin, Naalam, Canler Evin and some of the TR boys loyal to Logain in the BT, I don't think that at this point there is anyone he is willing to ask for help.

 

I mentioned this on the other thread because I think it could be an oversight, but I am interested to know where Sandomere is. He was the third of Logain's party, but when Weilyn comes back, everyone forgets about Donalo and assumes Logain is doomed now that Mezar and Weilyn are caught.

[herid]

this might be it although Androl makes it sound like the weaves to undo the bond are just unknown and Pevara doesn't feel anything else through the bond when he talks about it.

 

Speaking of Logain's party,

Logain told Rand back in KoD, ch 18 that he sent all the Asha'man with bonded Aes Sedai to Arad Doman and Illian. How does this square with Welyn and Denira being somewhere else with Logain? Sandomere has also bonded Ayako.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Speaking of Logain's party,

Logain told Rand back in KoD, ch 18 that he sent all the Asha'man with bonded Aes Sedai to Arad Doman and Illian. How does this square with Welyn and Denira being somewhere else with Logain? Sandomere has also bonded Ayako.

 

Logain apparently appeared back at the Black Tower after this and left in the middle of the night. Androl makes the distinction because he says that Logain got Rand to promote him to Dedicated (Androl) so Logain had come back, then he leaves again.

 

ToM: Working Leather

 

Androl had been worrying for weeks now. Ever since Logain had left in the night. Where had he gone? Why had he taken Donalo, Mezar and Welyn - three of the most powerful Dedicated loyal to him - along?

 

Here is where it makes it clear that this is after Logain returns from Rand.

 

ToM: Working Leather

 

Perhaps so weak he should never have been promoted from soldier. Logain had gone to the Lord Dragon about it; and made the promotion happen, against Taim's express wishes.

 

I suspect he took the three away from their duties, returned to the Black Tower, then went wherever it is they went.

[Suttree]

question - who taught Logain how to bond women?

 

Ashaman at the BT figured out how to bond their wives while experimenting widely with the weaves. It's how they found to add the "extra bit" compulsion aspect.

 

I thought the extra bit was the 'orgasm' they had while being bonded.

 

It is a somehwat common misconception.

 

QUESTION

The NEXT guy asked how the bond the Asha'man use is different than the Warder bond of the Aes Sedai.

ROBERT JORDAN

He explained that the bond is different because it contains that "extra bit" about obedience. Aes Sedai bound to Asha'man are compelled to comply with the demands of the men. While Aes Sedai can do this to their Warders, it requires work each time....

 

It's why Logain could have done without it in that chapter.