The best Healer in WoT ?

[driedraspberry]

You've settled the debate on whether or not damage to the CNS can be healed and regenerated using OP. However, notice that Nyn uses the traint as the map. She can't repair damage to complex systems if she doesn't know where to direct her weaves such as is the case with the damaged eye. This would put her at a disadvantage, and below Semirhage.

Detecting the tain at that resolution actually shows that she can do the same with other kinds of ailments.

And again with arthritis she knows where to direct her weaves and regenerate. Did she cure the actual autoimmune disease or just the damage? I can't recall.

We don't see her Heal the woman. But Nynaeve's Delving has improved to the molecular level, evidenced by her healing Millisair Chadmar. Heck, Siuan does it with Bryne. I fail to see what would stop her from dealing with system wide autoimmune diseases.

 

The taint is something every channeler can detect (see Rand channeling from tGH-WH). What Nyn was doing in the brain was essentially clean up and repair. It's like when we use isotopes to map out activity in physiology. She doesn't instinctively know what regions of the brain are damaged.

 

Even if we are to believe OP is akin to 10billion antigen seeking antibodies and can latch on to abnormalities, that still wouldn't make Nyn's abilities in healing superior to Semirhage's. What about stroke? Nyn can't use MRIs or even symptoms to figure out the specific region of the damage, it's not a visible wound like in the case of brain trauma. Or Huntingtons.

 

However, I have a hard time believing the OP works in that sense. It's more likely Nyn cured the poison victim and those of infectious diseases by simply repairing and regenerating where the damage has been caused while boosting the body's metabolism/immune response. Also arthritis is not necessarily a symptom of autoimmune disease. It could be infectious. Either case what Siuan does is repair damaged joints, and that's what Nyn would've done. I have yet to see proof of her suppressing an hyperactive immune response. So basically, we don't know that she can cure anything outside of poison, infection, or magical pathogen.

 

The difference between foreign entities like the taint would be that Nyn can sense them, but she can't seem to pinpoint damage if the target is too small/the organ too complex.

Well, unless huge solid lumps of poison float around inside people, Nynaeve has shown she can indeed pinpoint very tiny bits of damage.

 

Nyn most likely sped up the processing of the poison, metabolize and excretion of it. Most importantly she caused cell regeneration and repaired what it had damaged. She didn't need to reach out and pull every molecule, I seriously doubt she could do as much.

[Entreri]

Severing and curing madness.

 

Cough cough...removing the taint. Per RJ the OP can not cure madness. Hope to being saying this for the last time.

 

It is curing madness caused by the taint. Which NOBODY has been able to do, nobody. They must have tried desperately in AoL when the men went made and afterwards to decades before giving up.

 

Flinn could not either, the same Flinn who could do things "you Aes Sedai never dreamed of" according to Aginor.

 

Nynaeve >>Semirhage.

[Entreri]

as far as i recall LTT wasnt the greatest AS but the greatest Hero/Champion.

 

but i agrea that rand currently can be claimed to be an AoL AS in knowledge

the book clearly say he have LTT memories , but it not clear if its only personal memory or include channeling , all the new fighting waves the book specify that he use was during the inner dialog time.

 

He was the greatest man in his Age, the leader of the world, as strong as any man and easily as skilled.

 

Shai'tan's Chosen are always the strongest according to Shai'tan, Nae'blis is the strongest of the Chosen. Ishamael was defeatd twice by LTT.

 

In the end, the Creator's Chosen One is always the strongest.

 

Read chapter 1 of AMOL. He remembers everything that he did as LTT, not just OP usage. Rand Sedai = Rand+LTT.

[driedraspberry]

Severing and curing madness.

 

Cough cough...removing the taint. Per RJ the OP can not cure madness. Hope to being saying this for the last time.

 

It is curing madness caused by the taint. Which NOBODY has been able to do, nobody. They must have tried desperately in AoL when the men went made and afterwards to decades before giving up.

 

Flinn could not either, the same Flinn who could do things "you Aes Sedai never dreamed of" according to Aginor.

 

Nynaeve >>Semirhage.

 

You mean AoL post-War of Shadow when the male AS were causing apocalyptic destruction of the world. After Semirhage was imprisoned and likely many of the most talented AS were mindtrapped/kidnapped and likely killed by the shadow by then.

[Entreri]

Severing and curing madness.

 

Cough cough...removing the taint. Per RJ the OP can not cure madness. Hope to being saying this for the last time.

 

It is curing madness caused by the taint. Which NOBODY has been able to do, nobody. They must have tried desperately in AoL when the men went made and afterwards to decades before giving up.

 

Flinn could not either, the same Flinn who could do things "you Aes Sedai never dreamed of" according to Aginor.

 

Nynaeve >>Semirhage.

 

You mean AoL post-War of Shadow when the male AS were causing apocalyptic destruction of the world. After Semirhage was imprisoned and likely many of the most talented AS were mindtrapped/kidnapped and likely killed by the shadow by then.

 

Many female AoL AS without a doubt tried to heal the madness. No success. For 1000's years they had opportunities, nobody could heal the madness, except Nyaneve. Rand Sedai was AMAZED.

 

next.

[Suttree]

Many female AoL AS without a doubt tried to heal the madness. No success. For 1000's years they had opportunities, nobody could heal the madness, except Nyaneve. Rand Sedai was AMAZED.

 

next.

 

Yes yes, you've repeated the fact that Rand Sedai was amazed a number of times. We get that he tossed a throwaway complement to Nyn. None of that does anyting to change the fact that removing the taint from the brain is seperate from curing madness however, which we know for fact the OP can not do.

[Entreri]

Many female AoL AS without a doubt tried to heal the madness. No success. For 1000's years they had opportunities, nobody could heal the madness, except Nyaneve. Rand Sedai was AMAZED.

 

next.

 

Yes yes, you've repeated the fact that Rand Sedai was amazed a number of times. We get that he tossed a throwaway complement to Nyn. None of that does anyting to change the fact that removing the taint from the brain is seperate from curing madness however, which we know for fact the OP can not do.

 

Rand Sedai is amazed at Nyaneve and continues to be.

 

Removing the taint is curing the madness created by the taint. That is still curing madness. Not the madness you are thinking about.

[driedraspberry]

Severing and curing madness.

 

Cough cough...removing the taint. Per RJ the OP can not cure madness. Hope to being saying this for the last time.

 

It is curing madness caused by the taint. Which NOBODY has been able to do, nobody. They must have tried desperately in AoL when the men went made and afterwards to decades before giving up.

 

Flinn could not either, the same Flinn who could do things "you Aes Sedai never dreamed of" according to Aginor.

 

Nynaeve >>Semirhage.

 

You mean AoL post-War of Shadow when the male AS were causing apocalyptic destruction of the world. After Semirhage was imprisoned and likely many of the most talented AS were mindtrapped/kidnapped and likely killed by the shadow by then.

 

Many female AoL AS without a doubt tried to heal the madness. No success. For 1000's years they had opportunities, nobody could heal the madness, except Nyaneve. Rand Sedai was AMAZED.

 

next.

 

A lot of the female AoL AS had more important things to deal with, like actually subduing the 1000s or more of male AS destroying the world. And honestly we have no proof they didn't heal the taint. They could have....and then shortly after every guy they managed to perform the procedure on would go insane again, never mind all the men running about wreaking havoc. We have very little knowledge of the stuff happening during this time. Rand and the Forsaken were not involved. Rand's assessment is irrelevant since LTT was dead by the time anyone even knew about the taint.

[Entreri]

Severing and curing madness.

 

Cough cough...removing the taint. Per RJ the OP can not cure madness. Hope to being saying this for the last time.

 

It is curing madness caused by the taint. Which NOBODY has been able to do, nobody. They must have tried desperately in AoL when the men went made and afterwards to decades before giving up.

 

Flinn could not either, the same Flinn who could do things "you Aes Sedai never dreamed of" according to Aginor.

 

Nynaeve >>Semirhage.

 

You mean AoL post-War of Shadow when the male AS were causing apocalyptic destruction of the world. After Semirhage was imprisoned and likely many of the most talented AS were mindtrapped/kidnapped and likely killed by the shadow by then.

 

Many female AoL AS without a doubt tried to heal the madness. No success. For 1000's years they had opportunities, nobody could heal the madness, except Nyaneve. Rand Sedai was AMAZED.

 

next.

 

A lot of the female AoL AS had more important things to deal with, like actually subduing the 1000s or more of male AS destroying the world. And honestly we have no proof they didn't heal the taint. They could have....and then shortly after every guy they managed to perform the procedure on would go insane again, never mind all the men running about wreaking havoc. We have very little knowledge of the stuff happening during this time. Rand and the Forsaken were not involved. Rand's assessment is irrelevant since LTT was dead by the time anyone even knew about the taint.

 

I don't want to have a never ending conversation with you. Clearly, you don't think Nyaneve is the #1 healer, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

Personaly, I have no question that Nyaneve is #1. It is plainly clear as day.

[elric]

if a cure for the taint madness had existed , i believe thec WT would have record of it.

so it safe to assume that Nyn the first to cure it.

 

beeing the greatest man DONT MEEN beeing the greatest AS.

actually i precieve Aginor as the greatest genius/OP user of AoL .

 

if u want to claim that LTT was the greatest AS u first need to define what AS is, but that an issue for a seperated thread (it will railroad this thread if done here)

[driedraspberry]

I'm just pointing out the flaw in your argument dude. I don't expect to change your opinion. :)

 

if a cure for the taint madness had existed , i believe thec WT would have record of it.

so it safe to assume that Nyn the first to cure it.

 

There are tons of things AoL AS were capable of and recorded, but were lost during the Breaking. Think of all the ter'angreal with unknown purposes.

[Entreri]

"beeing the greatest man DONT MEEN beeing the greatest AS."

 

That is not the only thing I pointed out: Never being defeated in a one-on-one battle, beating TP wielding Ishamael, AS leader, world leader, leader of the Light, Creator's Chosen and so forth. Even his greatest enemy Demandred thinks him brilliant.

 

Aginor was the greatest scientist, sure.

 

"I'm just pointing out the flaw in your argument dude. I don't expect to change your opinion. :)" I can point out a lot of flaws in your arguments as well, starting with you making a lot of assumptions, but that is pointless tit-for-tat.

[BFG]

One last point for me. At the time of Elayne's pov that Sumeko had "outstripped Nynaeve long since.", no one is really arguing that correct?

Whyever not? Elayne and Egwene's comprehension of Healing seems restricted to "complex weaves are made". I'm doubtful if either is a great judge of the nuances of Healing, which is where differences between Nynaeev and Sumeko are likely to show up.

 

Just one thing - Elayne has no particular skillfor healing, so for her to make the comment it has to be based on easy to observe things, ease of healing, the effect of healing, the time taken. The book doesn't define what has made Elayne think this, but there's no reason to think that there's no reason behind the thought. She has no reason to lie in her own thoughts.

 

I suspect that the method by why which Elayne measures Sumeko's skill relative to Nynaeve, and I say this with love, is by intensity of braid pulling, glares,sniffing and the occasional spell of temper on Nynaaeve's part.

 

Additionally, with regards to Semi - surely we must acknowledge that she has the potential to be a great healer, but her temperament surely rules this out. At the moment she's using her knowledge to torture people, so although there's no reason to doubt her knowledge, that doesn't make her a good healer. It would be like calling Harold Shipman a good doctor.

 

I agree! I said the same early in the thread, but that interests no one.

 

LOL, except Elayne knows that the braid-tugging, losing temper is how Nyn used to channel the best, so is unlikely to judge against Nyn for it - and to an extent that's been calmed a little since she almost drowned and started to be able to channel without being angry.

 

As I said we don't know how Elayne ahs come to that conclusion and her judgement hasn't always proven to be the best, but she's not entirely stupid, there must be a reason for her to come to that conclusion and it's likely to be basic - the most likely one I can think of is how much power is used to heal things, or possibly time taken, as those are things that El can observe. I'm pretty sure we have at least one pov when Nyn is working on Logain that she can't even follow the delving/healing that Nyn's attempted, so she's unlikely to be able to tell the difference between the two weaves used.

 

I did notice your comments on Semi, and wasn't trying to steal your thunder, but I was surprised they weren't initially given more weight! For all her knowledge, she hasn't actually done much/any(?) healing yet, so I don't see how she rates against even a basic AS in terms of healing - the initial post was who was the best healer, not the one with the most potential skill (which in Semis case, even more than the others it seems pertinent to distinguish between the two).

 

(to fionwe) It is a basic pov, but imo doctor with all the skill in the world, that doesn't use it, is not a very good doctor despite all that skill and as I said the thread distinguishes between the best healer and the most skill (although if I keep that up I may have to switch my vote to Nyn, will have to think some more).

 

Severing and curing madness.

 

Cough cough...removing the taint. Per RJ the OP can not cure madness. Hope to being saying this for the last time.

 

It is curing madness caused by the taint. Which NOBODY has been able to do, nobody. They must have tried desperately in AoL when the men went made and afterwards to decades before giving up.

 

Flinn could not either, the same Flinn who could do things "you Aes Sedai never dreamed of" according to Aginor.

 

Nynaeve >>Semirhage.

 

Dried rasberry beat me to it, but to second that it wouldn't have done any good for AoL AS to remove the taint, as until the source was cleansed it would have come straight back.

[elric]

considering the the amount of effort that was invested in trying to heal the taint madness, i believe if a cure would been found it would be recorded and beeing put as a must know lesson in the WT.

curing the T-Madness is not a trick u save for yourself for power or some gadget, its the answer to THE MOST pressing problem in the world (at that time) u make sure everyoone know it and that it will be passed on.

[BFG]

Except, surely there's no point - you heal them from the madness, they channel - seems unavoidable - they get mad again, all that happens is the same people add to the damage over and over. AoL AS have no way, after the breaking to know the taint will be removed, therefore their is little point in passing on teh knowledge.

[Whizbang]

If they healed it, they could just re-heal it. So, unless they go mad immediately, then just have male chanellers "clensed" every month or so. Male channellers were spending time in Stedding to try and avoid the taint. They would be more than happy to have regular healings if it meant they could channel without going mad. Sure, they would be dependant on female AS, but that is better than nothing.

[BFG]

Maybe, but if you need to have Nyn's talent with both delving and healing then you're going to have your best healers doing nothing but heal madness - I'm not sure how long any of them would agree to it for, and maybe nobody in the AoL ever figured it out - if they did, I doubt it was similar to the current method - delving seems to be a modern Talent. We don't have the information one way or another.

[Mr Ares]

So basically what you're saying is that Sumeko should be ranked the best because of her knowledge base and experience.

No, I'm saying that Sumeko's knowledge and experience puts her above Nynaeve. We cannot rate her in relation to everyone else.

 

That's fair but at the same time, I think it's pretty obvious that both Nynaeve and Flinn have the greater actual talent for healing, given what they have each accomplished in the short time they have been channeling.

I don't. If someone else can do it better than you, how are you the best?

 

Oh and whether you consider Rand is an AS or not doesn't matter. What matters is that he knows what LTT knew and if he is impressed with what Nynaeve has been able to do, that most definitely means something, something huge in fact.

Yes, it means he was impressed. It doesn't mean that Nynaeve is better than Sumeko. It says nothing of relevance to the conversation, it only says that Nynaeve's achievements are, by any measure, impressive, but that much was not in doubt.

 

SO you are saying removing compulsion, healing stilling, and healing madness, are all under the umbrella of the ubiquitous Healing talent? Interesting. Does it say that clearly anywhere one way another, either in the text or in author interviews? Why aren't they separate? Does that mean Calling the lightning, Balls of Fire, Rolling Ring of Earth and Fire, Death BLossoms are all under the "Blowin' Stuff up real good" talent, and if you are better at one your better at all? I assumed they are similar but separate, but perhaps I am misinformed and I would like to have this confirmed one way or another.

It is irrelevant - I made clear that it is the application of knowledge, not the knowledge itself that is important. Skill, not I-know-something-you-don't. If removing the taint (not Healing madness, nor Healing taint madness - she removed the taint) is made easier by having a greater Talent for Healing, then it counts - but as long as only Nynaeve knows it, there is no basis for comparison in terms of skill, therefore it is irrelevant. If Healing stilling is easier to do for someone with a greater Talent for Healing, then it is Healing - so compare Nynaeve's ability to do so with others. Can they apply the weaves as well as she can, better than she can, worse than she can, or is no comparison possible? If they don't know, then no comparison is possible. So you cannot use it as evidence of Nynaeve being better.

 

Frankly, I find this line of reasoning ..odd. First theoretical considerations are discounted, which is fine, but then you state Nynaeve's expanded breadth of applied knowledge is irrelevant, because they both haven't had the same opportunity to learn the exact same skills and be compared under strict laboratory conditions... You again are trying to measure Talent in some way, when in the real world (and by real I mean fantasy world) a healer is measure by actually successes and real-time skill set, not what ifs, and maybes given all possible opportunities (applying your previous criteria). Lets say Sumekos talent at healing is the same as it is now, but instead she was born in Seanchan, and never joined the Return. We know that she still has great potenital for HEaling weaves, but if she never learns the skill of healing weaves of any sort, is your argument still that comparative skill is irrelevant and she is still a great healer? Despite, you know, never actually healing anybody? Inability to perform a task, no matter the reason, makes you no good at it. ITs actually the easiest comparison you can make. One can do it, the other cant.

Allow me to be clearer. Nynaeve can currently perform some things better than others, and others can do things better than Nynaeve. In some cases, this is due to differences in knowledge - so we don't know how well the others would do if they had the same knowledge, and therefore it presents little basis for comparison of their respective skill sets, only their knowledge base (and there is only limited difference in their respective knowledge bases). Other things are done better by one person despite the other knowing how to do it. That is, one has demonstrated greater skill than the other. The differences in their knowledge is tiny, the difference in their skill is significant. Nynaeve can score a few points Sumeko can't, but Sumeko will score better across the board.

 

And does Sumeko have sufficient strength in Delving, to even see the tiny black hooks that indicate the Taint induced madness? We know that Delving and Healing do not always go hand in hand: Verin is only so-so at healing (TSR), but is one of the best at Delving (ACOS). There are a lot of exceptions.

As you point out, being better at Delving doesn't make you better at Healing. Therefore, not relevant. Different Talents.

 

But what if the talent for Delving allows one to actually perform some form of healing where it could not be done before, because it could not have been previously identified?

Can you show Nynaeve's greater Talent for Deliving giving her an advantage over Sumeko? Naeff doesn't count, because Sumeko has not had opportunity to study him. Could someone with a lesser Talent for Healing but the same for Healing Heal it as well as Nynaeve - perhaps with the aid of a skilled Delver to find the problem for he, perhaps alone? I see no reason why not.

 

And there is one case that you are ignoring where Wise Woman style healing is better than OP healing - treating oneself, remember?

Not ignoring. Limited applications. Are they enough to change the rankings? If not, then not relevant.

 

Fair enough. I disagree on irrelevancy, but since it doesnt help differentiate Nynaeve and Sumeko it is indeed moot to our discussion.

 

And practically, it really doesn't matter if Sumeko has the ability to do the new weaves if taught the proper weaves: while it is possible the Nynaeve taught Sumeko the weaves for healing Stilling while they were in Caemlyn (no indication that it happened, but I guess Idont see why not), Sumeko has had no opportunity to learn the weaves to erase Compulsion or Heal Madness (edit: REmove the Taint). therefore she can't do them at this time.

And therefore there is no basis for saying Nynaeve is better, only for saying that she knows things others don't. Further, she cannot Heal compulsion, so has no leg up on any of the others there.

 

The topic is not who is the best at innovating with the OP. It is who is the best healer. Other people can Heal better than Nynaeve can - she is better at making discoveries, but others apply those discoveries better than she does. They refine her methods to a higher standard. If they can Heal better than she can, therefore they are better healers than she is. Therefore she is not the best, save in specialized areas where her discoveries have yet to become common knowledge.

 

If you think treating all heath issues is as simple as finding Problem A and applying the perfectly matched, previously developed Cure A, you would be right. But modern medicine is a lot more complicated, and I believe it applies to Randland as well, otherwise it would no be emphasized so much in the text. I suspect that you have heard that medicine is as much an art as it is a science? Its true. In truly complicated cases there is no clear solution, and outside of the box problem solving and innovation on the fly is essential.. Obviously, Sumeko, over 300 years, has developed a lot of great strategies to handle a lot of problems in unique ways, and she has superior problem solving to most Yellow Ajah I suspect. Damer and and Semi are obviously great for this as well. But for big time, brand new problems that need a quick, unorthodox solution such as say, the Dragon REborn dead and buried for 3 days? I will take Nynaeve and her awkward brilliance every time.

Why? She has not demonstrated superiority over the others in this respect. Flinn, with less channeling experience than Nynaeve, has discovered how to Heal gentling and stilling. Sumeko has not had opportunity to study it, so whether she would have discovered it under the same circumstances is unknown. BT men were euthanised if they went mad, therefore Flinn likely hasn't had much opportunity to study it, and Sumeko hasn't - so we don't know if they would have reached the same conclusions as Nynaeve. Nynaeve doing something the others never had an opportunity to try doesn't indicate that she is better at finding solutions than they are, simply that she has had access to problems they didn't. The same with Healing compulsion, or someone turned by 13/13, or someone three days dead. If they have not had opportunity to study the problem but Nynave has, then we have no basis for suggesting they could not have done the same, so we cannot use it as evidence of Nynaeve outstripping the others. It's like taking a test - if all the kids take the same test, then you can compare their marks against one another. If one kid takes a test with a few questions the others didn't have, you have no basis for saying that that child's answers were better than another's would have been if the others had got the extra questions as well.

 

Samitsu? She is the best at traditional healing, but are there any scenarios where that is an advantage over 5 power healing? Hmmm.. I didnt think so, but I will have to think on this

Three power Healing was initially used by AoL AS as a form of battlefield Healing. Given that it is one weave for all problems, it requires less time for diagnosis. If it requires less energy from the Healer, then the combination of the two allows for one Healer to Heal significantly more people than would otherwise be the case. So, if you had a large number of people needing Healing, then Samitsu likely beats out Nynaeve.

 

I want to make it clear - I understand your reasoning Mr Ares, and you justify your choice well. But I disagree with the logic that Best Healing Talent = Best Healer based purely ontological reasons. MAny other related factors apply.

Likewise, I understand your reasoning, but I also disagree with your logic.

 

In response to Ares:

 

"Books say Sumeko is better."

 

Not they do not. Elayne thinks Sumeko is better. Elayne with her great healing skills would be a wonderful judge, no doubt. We have never seen Sumeko perform anything or discover anything which is remotely close to remarkable, unlike Nyaneve.

Elayne's skill with Healing is not relevant. It's like using "well, you do better then" as a response to criticism. Just as I can see a difference between the skills of RJ and BS, even though I can't write as well as either of them, so Elayne can see a difference between Sumeko and Nynaeve, even if she cannot Heal as well as either of them. Elayne is a character in the books. Therefore, the books certainly do say that Nynaeve is better. Of course, that is the opinion of just one character, and a character's opinions can be wrong. So, let us look at the evidence suggesting Elayne is wrongin her assessment:1... 2... 3... 4... Funny, there isn't any. So, if we have evidence saying that Sumeko is better, and nothing saying that Nynaeve is, then the most reasonable conclusion is that Sumeko is better. As for the quality of discoveries, I've already said that I hold them in low regard - what matters is the application of discoveries, no matter who made them. Nynaeve has done impressive things. Sumeko has come after he, looked at what she did, and did it better. And if Sumeko is doing it better than Nynaeve, it is silly to say that Nynaeve is better.

 

"So many? You mean one. And, again, making new discoveries doesn't matter when it is the application that is under discussion."

 

Severing and curing madness. Her greatest discovery could well be in AmoL. The greatest of a particular field are the people who make new discoveries. In a span of around a year, Nyaneve made two remarkable ones in healing.

Sumeko's greatest discovery could be in AMoL as well. Or Flinn's, or Samitsu's. In the AoL, they didn't have the taint to try to Heal, until the end, at which point they had hundreds of crazy men and the war against the Shadow. Not forgetting that every AoL AS died in the Breaking, and a huge amount of knowledge was lost. Nynaeve has made one discovery that the people in the AoL could have made - Healing severing. And calling those who make discoveries the greatest is a highly suspect claim. It would surely depend on the field. If I go to a doctor, it's because I have a medical problem that I would like him to solve. Now, if the doctor I go to has discovered several new things, but others have learned his methods and improved upon them, why should he be considered the best? He did something new that became accepted. Others didn't do anything new, perhaps, they merely perfected the old. Those who make discoveries are often the most celebrated, but best and most celebrated are not the same thing.

 

"Rand is no AS at all, still less the greatest of all time"

 

????

 

Rand gained all of LTT's knowledge. He considered himself an Aes Sedai, only one remaining not turned to the Shadow. He was considered the greatest man of his Age, led the Aes Sedai. He is without a doubt the greatest AS of all time, the only person all the Chosen all fear.

Rand gained LTT's knowledge, but that doesn't make him LTT. Mat gained a lot of men's knowledge - is he those people as well? No. Rand knows what LTT knows, but that alone does not make him LTT. Him being a dick and calling himself Rand Sedai is really neither here nor there. It speaks to a desire to wind up Cadsuane more than it does a metaphysical reality.

 

His persecptive of Nyaneve's abilties thus have tremendous weight.

Fine. Show me the quote where he says Nynaeve is better than Sumeko. Nynave having some remarkable accomplishments to her name does not mean she can Heal better than Sumeko can, it means she can accomplish remarkable things. As the topic is who is the best Healer, not who accomplishes the most remarkable Healing-related feat, Nynaeve's accomplishments don't matter. What matters is can she Heal better than other people? And with most people, the answer is yes, with some the answer is unknown, and with Sumeko the answer is no. As she cannot Heal as well as Sumeko, she cannot be as good a Healer as Sumeko. Therefore she cannot be the best Healer. QED.

 

If you don't think Rand Sedai is the greatest Aes Sedai of all time, who is your choice?

I don't think there is enough information to say. But of those we have information on, LTT is a solid choice. But LTT is not Rand.

[Wandering Channeler]

Since the Nyn/Semi thing is getting a little boring - stir the pot

 

 

Removing the taint from the mind is not healing madness. Theys are seperate things. Per RJ...

 

Interview: Oct 9th, 1996

Robert Jordan

 

Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords. In the Prologue to The Eye of the World we saw True Power used to heal insanity. The One Power cannot be used to heal insanity.

 

 

Hmmm looks like maybe Ishy could come in the back door as best healer, I mean truely healing insanity is pretty impressive.

[driedraspberry]

Since the Nyn/Semi thing is getting a little boring - stir the pot

 

 

Removing the taint from the mind is not healing madness. Theys are seperate things. Per RJ...

 

Interview: Oct 9th, 1996

Robert Jordan

 

Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords. In the Prologue to The Eye of the World we saw True Power used to heal insanity. The One Power cannot be used to heal insanity.

 

 

Hmmm looks like maybe Ishy could come in the back door as best healer, I mean truely healing insanity is pretty impressive.

 

Not surprising. Ish wins at everything.

[elric]

to emphasize Whisbang:

 

think about Taint mad channeler as dialisa patints:

1 per week /2 week u go and get it fixed :)

IF cure for madness had existed pre-Nyneav.

as far as i recall Far-Meding was created to try and find a solytion the male madness

think of the amount of energy invested on that.

 

Mr Ares

there few speicific points i disgrea with u.

even if 3 weave healing is more economic on the healer i douth Semitsu out do Nyn due to Nyn beeing MUCH stronger -> vast more access to the OP

the breakiung happen AFTER the winover the shadow, so the only threat WAS the crazed male cxhannelers, and it was never said that all AoL AS died in the breaking , we know of atleast 3 tat survived with the Gen-Aial, there was the 2 male who created the EYE, that cuncil who give the green man the horn, the AS who created Far -Medding...

 

 

btw i dont think the jesus scene will happen, not on the 3 day dead +resurrection wagon , but i think that Nyn will probably (altough it may be Flin or Sum or even a new char altogether) heal 13*13 in aMoL

[Damer Sedai]

Allow me to be clearer. Nynaeve can currently perform some things better than others, and others can do things better than Nynaeve. In some cases, this is due to differences in knowledge - so we don't know how well the others would do if they had the same knowledge, and therefore it presents little basis for comparison of their respective skill sets, only their knowledge base (and there is only limited difference in their respective knowledge bases). Other things are done better by one person despite the other knowing how to do it. That is, one has demonstrated greater skill than the other. The differences in their knowledge is tiny, the difference in their skill is significant. Nynaeve can score a few points Sumeko can't, but Sumeko will score better across the board.

 

Ah, I think I see where we disagree philosophically.

 

1. Its a matter of terminology: You feel that Sumeko may possess superior skill at an ability she cannot actually perform, in that case due to a lack of knowledge. i believe you are confusing aptitude and skill. Skill denotes the ability to do something (at least that's the the dictionary definition). If SUmeko can't Remove the Taint, for instance, she does not possess the skill, because she, for whatever the reason, doesnt' have the ability at this current juncture in the books. Knowledge is just the reason why she lacks in skill in this case.. that is to say she lacks skill because she lacks knowledge. Lets say you are a reknowned brain surgeon, and you are asked if you have the skill to perform a cardiac transplant: there is no reason with training you couldn't perform one with proper training (knowledge) because you are really good at surgery (high aptitude), and cardiac transplant while difficult, isn't the hardest surgery ever; but you would be remiss to claim you are skilled at cardiac transplant. But since arguing semantics is never productive, I will drop it and go from there.

2. You argue that there is a large gap in the Healing Talent between Sumeko and Nynaeve based on the text; I argue that the text only says that Nynaeve isnt as good, are there is plenty of evidence that the gap is not large

3. You feel that the ability to Delve, heal stilling, Removing the Taint, and removing compulsion are of very limited use compared to Healing Wounds and Illness (inferred from saying Sum vs/ Nyns knowledge base are very different); I disagree

4. You argue that I cannot assume that Sumeko cannot do what Nynaeve does, because the only difference is a lack of opportunity; I counter that you cannot assume Sumeko can do perform as well, for the same reasons. Didactically, the lack of evidence to the positive is given higher weight than disproving a negative fact. I can argue that I would have done a better job than RJ writing the WOT from book 8 on, because I can write a little bit and I simply haven't had the opportunity that RJ did - but you would be coming from a much stronger position to say that I am giving insufficient evidence. This is obviously an exaggerated example, but do you see where I am coming from? Does this give the benefit of the doubt the Nynaeve, just because she a major character and Sumeko a minor one? Sure, but I don't see how to correct for that unless you want to contact Maria or someone else on Team Jordan.

5. You discount innovation as unrelated, which I do not. Especially considering that Nynaeve has proved she can innovate and use the new treatment on the fly at the same time!

 

Agree to disagree. Have a good one.

[elric]

not taking sides (and really enjoying the debate :) ), i believe Sumako will be able to heal Stilling if shown the wave (and i dont discount her ability to find a cure by her own).

 

dont know about T-Madness

[Whizbang]

Re: Healing Stilling

 

Many of the Yellows in Salidar were able to duplicate the weave to heal Stilling. They did not have a severed woman to practice on, but they could at least mimic the weave (it was demonstrated that you can do the weave without actively curing someone when Egwene becomes Amerlyn and Nyn and Elayne give her the Adam and explain everything that has been going on. Nyn demonstrates the weave, which Egween describes as weaving a tapestry with your toes, blindfolded {or something like that}).

 

So, Sumeko would only need to be shown the weave (if she hasn't already) to heal Severing.

 

I believe that the difference between Sumeko and Nyn is about the same as the difference between Lan and Ruarc (a mouse could starve on the difference). Nyn grudgingly admits that Sumeko could maybe teach her some things, and Sumeko grudgingly admits that Nyn may have taught some of the new healing to the Wise Ones. They are rivals in Healing. It is yet to be determined in a Heal-off which is better, but I bet on Nyn simply because of her achievements on screen.

[fionwe1987]

I disagree. The one advantage with cancer, no matter the staging or level of metastasis, is that you have the same undifferentiated cell to identify, isolate, and remove throughout the body- probably not that dissimilar to the tiny black hooks seen when Nynaeve was Removing the Taint (happy, Suttree?) . Paraneoplastic syndrome is typical secreted directly by the tumor or are a immune response to the tumor, and therefore you don't even have to address to hormonal changes... remove the tumor, treat the syndrome.

This would have been considered true... in the 1980s maybe. What we know of cancer stem cells now totally negates all this. And do remember that unlike the taint, cancer cells are going to be extremely similar to normal cells, with a few key differences. And unlike autoimmune conditions, cancer is a constant danger. DNA will mutate no matter what you do. Channeling the OP yourself might negate this for you, but unless Healers can somehow constantly keep watch on each cell in the body all life long, they have no way of destroying all dormant cancer stem cells, or preventing new cancers from forming.

There is no single concrete factor to remove, add, or 'fix' in autoimmunity, far too often.

And you think there is, in cancer?

Half the time Immunologists don't seem to understand the complex cascades that occurs in the 80+ autoimmune conditions.

Huh? They understand just fine. And you seem to forget that the same kind of disruption of normal signaling pathways cause cancer too.

We have less than mediocre tests to identify autoimmune conditions, and that speaks to how hard they are to identify, let alone treat.

Sadly, this is even more true of cancer. We can identify tumors. But many times, that's too late. Tumors are symptoms, and given how easily cancer can hide and stay dormant, it highly doubtful even the OP will catch it all the time.

I have no idea how Delving would frame and/or identify the problems. There are a lot more moving parts compared to cancers, as they are include dysfunctional B cells AND T cells in most cases, with very little to differentiate them from happy healthy B and T cells.

And how is this not true in the various lymphomas, leukemias, etc? You seem to think all cancers are solid tumors, whereas we know for a fact that just like autoimmunity is not one diseases, cancer too is a spectrum of diseases.

How would you use the OP to alter the memory B cells that carry the Ab that causes these conditions to persist?

The same as how you'd destroy cancer cells that also differ from other cells only a little?

How would you stop triggering of complement cascades, and antibody/antigen complexes, etc.?

You're throwing terminology here, but I'm not getting what you're saying. What do you mean "triggering" antibody-antigen complexes? And what makes you think serious immune issues are not associated with cancer? Paraneoplastic syndrome is one case, where immune cells generated to cancel cell surface antigens migrate to other parts of the body and start attacking there. And removal of the cancer doesn't solve this. This is basically an autoimmune condition secondary to cancer.

There are a lot more moving parts. here.

That's simply not true. You seem to have a very antiquated idea of cancer.

You can suppress the whole immune process, but if permanent that often seriously compromises the immune system, which is a big deal in a pre-industrial pre-plumbing society unless your OP healer is on your beck and call.

We're talking about the ability of the OP to cure autoimmune conditions. How does the complication of treating those conditions in a pre-industrial society come into play? A competent healer can easily ablate the bone marrow of the patient, and then regenerate marrow (bypassing graft-versus-host entirely).

 

Secondly, while current research is yet to reach this point, there are likely to be "nexus" points in signaling cascades related to immune response and cancer. But believe you me, the signaling pathways for immunity are going to prove easier to dissect (not easy, mind) than for development (and hence cancer). But with the OP? We have already established Nynaeve's ability to at least set complex neuronal singaling pathways right. Those are immensely complex too, and I really don't see autoimmunity (or even cancer, though this is probably the most most complex by a bit) present a much greater challenge.

 

Much simpler to look for, and identify, a single type of bad actor such as cancer,

No. Just no. Cancer is NOT "a single type" of anything. Cancer cells are not the "black bile" of Greek medicine!

no matter how microscopic, and then remove it; rather than wade into the swamp of autoimmune conditions.

 

PS - I know I am intentionally simplifying cancer and autoimmune disorders, but we have gone far afield already, and only a select few of us are interested I think.

Nope. What you're doing is simplifying cancer more than anything else.