The best Healer in WoT ?

[Mr Ares]

A lot of writing. Nobody has convinced me that anyone on the list is a better healer than Nyaneve and certainly not the voting public.

I doubt anyone could convince you. But, if my last attempt was too many words, allow me to summarise in five words or less: Books say Sumeko is better.

 

Actually, its not just a matter of familiarity.... its a matter of definitions.

Yes, that's exactly what I said.

 

You said skewed definitions, implying that other definitions were in error.. I disagree that all that all that defines a Healer, is the Healing talent - physical wounds and illness. It is the largest part, but there are clearly other skills that fall under the umbrella of healing. How is that skewed? Never mind, not worth discussing.

You didn't even acknowledge my point before. And if we are discussing the best Healer, what is relevant besides their ability to Heal?

 

The Poll does not ask "who is better at the Talent Healing" it ask who is the best healer.

Well, unless we are using the metric of best healer without the OP, it's an irrelevant distinction.

 

SO you are saying removing compulsion, healing stilling, and healing madness, are all under the umbrella of the ubiquitous Healing talent? Interesting. Does it say that clearly anywhere one way another, either in the text or in author interviews? Why aren't they separate? Does that mean Calling the lightning, Balls of Fire, Rolling Ring of Earth and Fire, Death BLossoms are all under the "Blowin' Stuff up real good" talent, and if you are better at one your better at all? I assumed they are similar but separate, but perhaps I am misinformed and I would like to have this confirmed one way or another.

It is irrelevant - I made clear that it is the application of knowledge, not the knowledge itself that is important. Skill, not I-know-something-you-don't. If removing the taint (not Healing madness, nor Healing taint madness - she removed the taint) is made easier by having a greater Talent for Healing, then it counts - but as long as only Nynaeve knows it, there is no basis for comparison in terms of skill, therefore it is irrelevant. If Healing stilling is easier to do for someone with a greater Talent for Healing, then it is Healing - so compare Nynaeve's ability to do so with others. Can they apply the weaves as well as she can, better than she can, worse than she can, or is no comparison possible? If they don't know, then no comparison is possible. So you cannot use it as evidence of Nynaeve being better.

 

While Sumeko (and others?) may be able to outstrip Nynaeve at both 3 power and 5 power healing of wounds and illnesses, there is no indication that she can heal stilling, and based on circumstance would have no ability to to cure taint-inspired madness or lift compulsion, both which fit under the broad umbrella of a Healer's pervue.

There is no indication that anyone capable of Healing is incapable of Healing stilling if they know the method. Likewise removing the taint and lifting compulsion. Healing with the OP outstrips Healing without, so by any objective measure the only candidates are those who use the OP to Heal. After that, Talent for Healing, knowledge of how to Heal and strength in the Power are all important, and the first of those is the only one which cannot be changed - one can learn new weaves or use an angreal, but one cannot just get more Talent, at least so far as we have seen. So, who has the greatest Talent for Healing?

 

Facts not in evidence. There also is no indication that everyone that can use Healing can heal stilling, either.

Other than it allegedly being a form of Healing, using the same methods as normal Healing. The Yellows learnt it in Salidar, although haven't exactly had a lot of opportunity to practice with it.

Nynaeve used very different weaves to heal stilling than used for conventional healing.

Nynaeve uses different weaves for all her Healing - the traditional AS method involves three powers, and one weave for all ailments. Nynaeve uses different weaves and all five powers - fire and spirit for Healing stilling. The Yellows have since learnt Nynaeve's Healing methods - and improved upon them. Her methods for Healing stilling are in line with her methods for all other Healing.

 

And does Sumeko have sufficient strength in Delving, to even see the tiny black hooks that indicate the Taint induced madness? We know that Delving and Healing do not always go hand in hand: Verin is only so-so at healing (TSR), but is one of the best at Delving (ACOS). There are a lot of exceptions.

As you point out, being better at Delving doesn't make you better at Healing. Therefore, not relevant. Different Talents.

 

And there is one case that you are ignoring where Wise Woman style healing is better than OP healing - treating oneself, remember?

Not ignoring. Limited applications. Are they enough to change the rankings? If not, then not relevant.

 

And practically, it really doesn't matter if Sumeko has the ability to do the new weaves if taught the proper weaves: while it is possible the Nynaeve taught Sumeko the weaves for healing Stilling while they were in Caemlyn (no indication that it happened, but I guess Idont see why not), Sumeko has had no opportunity to learn the weaves to erase Compulsion or Heal Madness. therefore she can't do them at this time.

And therefore there is no basis for saying Nynaeve is better, only for saying that she knows things others don't. Further, she cannot Heal compulsion, so has no leg up on any of the others there.

 

I am on the the same page with Mr Ares on one point - how do we value innovation? And on what scale? Sure for the individual soldier or plague victim, Sumeko is your best bet. But for Randland in general, and for future in the fourth Age, I will take Nynaeve's impact on the world every time. In Medicine we remember Alfred Blaylock, father of pediatric cardiac surgery, even though every modern surgeon in the field outstrips him in skill by several degrees.

While Nynaeve might have done more to push forward the boundaries of Healing, others are better at Healing than she is. Likewise, modern surgeons in that field might not be doing anything as ground-breaking as what Blaylock did, they are better doctors than him. They are doing the job better.

Um... I agree? Its exactly what I had said in the previous sentence. You can discount innovation if you want, but don't go tell a theoretical physicist that her contributions to physics are meaningless compared to those of the applied physicist. You might get shoved into a LArge Hadron Collider

In a comparison of who is the best applied physicist, the contributions of the theorist are meaningless. The topic is not who is the best at innovating with the OP. It is who is the best healer. Other people can Heal better than Nynaeve can - she is better at making discoveries, but others apply those discoveries better than she does. They refine her methods to a higher standard. If they can Heal better than she can, therefore they are better healers than she is. Therefore she is not the best, save in specialised areas where her discoveries have yet to become common knowledge.

 

Didn't Samistu bring Dobraine back so close from the brink of death that people already said he was dead? - If that can be agreed upon, and everyone has already said that Nyn, Semuko, Semi, and Flinn all far outstripe Samistu then the back from the brink part of Semi and the AoL being above Nyn, Semuko, and Flinn does not qualify for me. Obviously Samistu is the best of the Aes Sedai healer (pre Nyn) so I'm not saying Semi isn't still phenominal, just that this is not a qualification for being better than the other three.

Who is saying that the others have outstripped Samitsu? What has been admitted is that Flinn did something she couldn't. Bear in mind she's an AS, and therefore has existed for a long time in a culture than frowns on innovation. If we discard innovation as a relevant metric of skill, and merely compare the application of their knowledge of Healing (not their ability to discover new knowlege), what reason do we have to believe that any of these has outstripped her, let alone all of them?

 

Well, Samitsu, before healing Dobraine asked the Ashaman Kardlin if he knew Damer's new type of healing: She, an expert in the field, felt it was not as stressful and energy draining on the patient and much better in that case She has yet to learn the new forms - if she even can to any great degree (although she was briefly in contact with Nynaeve in KOD, given the Yellows attitudes towards her and the lack of time its unlikely she has learned it since). Given that She is really good at traditional healing but cannot do any of the new things doesnt that knock her down a few pegs?

It puts her at a disadvantage in knowledge - not in application of knowledge. In most areas, her knowledge is adequate. Her lack of more recent specialised knowledge disadvantages her, but not by a lot. Given her current knowledge deficiencies, she could only take the top spot if her Talent for Healing far outstripped the others, because she has no other specialisation to add to her strengths. All else being equal, something like Healing stilling could be a tie break, but by itself is too specialised to really be relevant, therefore Nynaeve must lose out to Sumeko due to the other being better in almost all areas, for example. Samitsu lacks anything to give her the edge in a tie break, so she just has to better in most areas.

 

Your last statement makes a lot of sense - we have so little comparative data, that its hard to make an educated guess let alone an honest assessment. But IMO Nynaeve's breadth of healing skills cannot be ignored.

She only has a marginally better knowledge base than any other contender - even Samitsu isn't lacking that much.

 

Let me ask you this: If you wanted one healer at your side in a foxhole, through thick and thin, who do you want out of all of candidates, disregarding their relative offensive talents?

I would want the person best able to keep me alive and fighting. Ability to Heal stilling, or remove the taint, or compulsion are unimportant. Semi loses out due to her propensity to hurt people, Nynaeve due to her skills being surpassed by others and her knowledge being irrelevant, Samitsu due to her Healing leaving me weaker in the short term - useful for her if she has to Heal hundreds of people, but no benefit to me in that situation - therefore it would have to be either Flinn or Sumeko. I have no rational basis for giving one the edge over the other.

 

You are completely missing the point. Nynaeve has only been channeling just over a year. She has made so many discoveries that were thought to be impossible at the height of civilization. That shows her sheer talent and brilliance for the healing arts.

So many? You mean one. And, again, making new discoveries doesn't matter when it is the application that is under discussion.

 

The greatest Aes Sedai of all time, Rand Sedai was amazed at Nyaneve when she healed madness! "You never cease to..."

Rand is no AS at all, still less the greatest of all time. Even if he was, it would be irrelevant, as Rand's comments are not enough for a comparison with the Healing ability of others. Nynaeve can do amazing things. What is under discussion is can she Heal things better than other people? And the answer is no - others can apply her methods better than she can. She is better at making discoveries, not at Healing with them.

[Finnssss22]

So basically what you're saying is that Sumeko should be ranked the best because of her knowledge base and experience.

That's fair but at the same time, I think it's pretty obvious that both Nynaeve and Flinn have the greater actual talent for healing, given what they have each accomplished in the short time they have been channeling.

 

I don't think what Sumeko does is all that special to be honest. She simply knows how to heal like they used to in the AoL and has had a lot of practice at it. And while Nynaeve admits she could learn some things from her, Sumeko also admitted that she learned some things from Nynaeve. Considering Nynaeve's short time channeling, that says something.

We have heard numerous Forsaken comment on how the healing the AS do today is crude and is more of a quick battlefield kinda thing.

 

Oh and whether you consider Rand is an AS or not doesn't matter. What matters is that he knows what LTT knew and if he is impressed with what Nynaeve has been able to do, that most definitely means something, something huge in fact.

[Damer Sedai]

SO you are saying removing compulsion, healing stilling, and healing madness, are all under the umbrella of the ubiquitous Healing talent? Interesting. Does it say that clearly anywhere one way another, either in the text or in author interviews? Why aren't they separate? Does that mean Calling the lightning, Balls of Fire, Rolling Ring of Earth and Fire, Death BLossoms are all under the "Blowin' Stuff up real good" talent, and if you are better at one your better at all? I assumed they are similar but separate, but perhaps I am misinformed and I would like to have this confirmed one way or another.

It is irrelevant - I made clear that it is the application of knowledge, not the knowledge itself that is important. Skill, not I-know-something-you-don't. If removing the taint (not Healing madness, nor Healing taint madness - she removed the taint) is made easier by having a greater Talent for Healing, then it counts - but as long as only Nynaeve knows it, there is no basis for comparison in terms of skill, therefore it is irrelevant. If Healing stilling is easier to do for someone with a greater Talent for Healing, then it is Healing - so compare Nynaeve's ability to do so with others. Can they apply the weaves as well as she can, better than she can, worse than she can, or is no comparison possible? If they don't know, then no comparison is possible. So you cannot use it as evidence of Nynaeve being better.

 

For clarity, I will stop saying healing taint inspired madness, even though that is descriptive of what she is doing. That seems to bug a lot of people here. From now on I will decribe the feat as removing the taint.

 

Frankly, I find this line of reasoning ..odd. First theoretical considerations are discounted, which is fine, but then you state Nynaeve's expanded breadth of applied knowledge is irrelevant, because they both haven't had the same opportunity to learn the exact same skills and be compared under strict laboratory conditions... You again are trying to measure Talent in some way, when in the real world (and by real I mean fantasy world) a healer is measure by actually successes and real-time skill set, not what ifs, and maybes given all possible opportunities (applying your previous criteria). Lets say Sumekos talent at healing is the same as it is now, but instead she was born in Seanchan, and never joined the Return. We know that she still has great potenital for HEaling weaves, but if she never learns the skill of healing weaves of any sort, is your argument still that comparative skill is irrelevant and she is still a great healer? Despite, you know, never actually healing anybody? Inability to perform a task, no matter the reason, makes you no good at it. ITs actually the easiest comparison you can make. One can do it, the other cant.

 

While Sumeko (and others?) may be able to outstrip Nynaeve at both 3 power and 5 power healing of wounds and illnesses, there is no indication that she can heal stilling, and based on circumstance would have no ability to to cure taint-inspired madness or lift compulsion, both which fit under the broad umbrella of a Healer's pervue.

There is no indication that anyone capable of Healing is incapable of Healing stilling if they know the method. Likewise removing the taint and lifting compulsion. Healing with the OP outstrips Healing without, so by any objective measure the only candidates are those who use the OP to Heal. After that, Talent for Healing, knowledge of how to Heal and strength in the Power are all important, and the first of those is the only one which cannot be changed - one can learn new weaves or use an angreal, but one cannot just get more Talent, at least so far as we have seen. So, who has the greatest Talent for Healing?

Nynaeve uses different weaves for all her Healing - the traditional AS method involves three powers, and one weave for all ailments. Nynaeve uses different weaves and all five powers - fire and spirit for Healing stilling. The Yellows have since learnt Nynaeve's Healing methods - and improved upon them. Her methods for Healing stilling are in line with her methods for all other Healing.

 

You may be right, but when I read the post-Logain text on Nynaeve's weaves, there are a lot of references to the Yellows assuming they can make improvements after viewing the weave once, they mention other refinements and innovations related other elements of healing, and Elayne mentions (when Nynaeve is finally able to rest) that the Yellows must be able to replicate the weave right now (without being present)? Is Suian coming to Nynaeve to re-try the ehaling of Stilling for secrecy's sake, enough of an indication, that it is now a ubiquitous skill amongst the Salidar Yellows? I saw no clear indication that they can truly heal stilling, but perhaps because it wasnt stated clear out,I just presumed. I will go back and look. Thank you.

 

And does Sumeko have sufficient strength in Delving, to even see the tiny black hooks that indicate the Taint induced madness? We know that Delving and Healing do not always go hand in hand: Verin is only so-so at healing (TSR), but is one of the best at Delving (ACOS). There are a lot of exceptions.

As you point out, being better at Delving doesn't make you better at Healing. Therefore, not relevant. Different Talents.

 

But what if the talent for Delving allows one to actually perform some form of healing where it could not be done before, because it could not have been previously identified? Isn't that how Nynaeve is able to remove the taint on Naeff in TOM? Are you saying that this Delving wasn't essential in finding each and every little thorn, pulling it free, and then lifting the whole mass off, and instead could be done blindly? I disagree. Here 1 talent seems to COmpliment another. And if HEaler A can't even find subtle problems to heal due to insufficient Delving, where healer B can, doesnt that make B a better healer, at least for that specific case?. DIagnostic skills are hugely important in modern medicine, and it seems to be true in Randland in specific, challenging cases as well.

 

And there is one case that you are ignoring where Wise Woman style healing is better than OP healing - treating oneself, remember?

Not ignoring. Limited applications. Are they enough to change the rankings? If not, then not relevant.

 

Fair enough. I disagree on irrelevancy, but since it doesnt help differentiate Nynaeve and Sumeko it is indeed moot to our discussion.

 

And practically, it really doesn't matter if Sumeko has the ability to do the new weaves if taught the proper weaves: while it is possible the Nynaeve taught Sumeko the weaves for healing Stilling while they were in Caemlyn (no indication that it happened, but I guess Idont see why not), Sumeko has had no opportunity to learn the weaves to erase Compulsion or Heal Madness (edit: REmove the Taint). therefore she can't do them at this time.

And therefore there is no basis for saying Nynaeve is better, only for saying that she knows things others don't. Further, she cannot Heal compulsion, so has no leg up on any of the others there.

 

The topic is not who is the best at innovating with the OP. It is who is the best healer. Other people can Heal better than Nynaeve can - she is better at making discoveries, but others apply those discoveries better than she does. They refine her methods to a higher standard. If they can Heal better than she can, therefore they are better healers than she is. Therefore she is not the best, save in specialized areas where her discoveries have yet to become common knowledge.

 

If you think treating all heath issues is as simple as finding Problem A and applying the perfectly matched, previously developed Cure A, you would be right. But modern medicine is a lot more complicated, and I believe it applies to Randland as well, otherwise it would no be emphasized so much in the text. I suspect that you have heard that medicine is as much an art as it is a science? Its true. In truly complicated cases there is no clear solution, and outside of the box problem solving and innovation on the fly is essential.. Obviously, Sumeko, over 300 years, has developed a lot of great strategies to handle a lot of problems in unique ways, and she has superior problem solving to most Yellow Ajah I suspect. Damer and and Semi are obviously great for this as well. But for big time, brand new problems that need a quick, unorthodox solution such as say, the Dragon REborn dead and buried for 3 days? I will take Nynaeve and her awkward brilliance every time.

 

SHe can heal compulsion, or remove it anyway. Its not perfect, and may be of limited use, but I see scenarios where it would be helpful in non-Graendal related cases. DO you disagree?

 

Well, Samitsu, before healing Dobraine asked the Ashaman Kardlin if he knew Damer's new type of healing: She, an expert in the field, felt it was not as stressful and energy draining on the patient and much better in that case She has yet to learn the new forms - if she even can to any great degree (although she was briefly in contact with Nynaeve in KOD, given the Yellows attitudes towards her and the lack of time its unlikely she has learned it since). Given that She is really good at traditional healing but cannot do any of the new things doesnt that knock her down a few pegs?

It puts her at a disadvantage in knowledge - not in application of knowledge. In most areas, her knowledge is adequate. Her lack of more recent specialised knowledge disadvantages her, but not by a lot. Given her current knowledge deficiencies, she could only take the top spot if her Talent for Healing far outstripped the others, because she has no other specialisation to add to her strengths. All else being equal, something like Healing stilling could be a tie break, but by itself is too specialised to really be relevant, therefore Nynaeve must lose out to Sumeko due to the other being better in almost all areas, for example. Samitsu lacks anything to give her the edge in a tie break, so she just has to better in most areas.

 

Your last statement makes a lot of sense - we have so little comparative data, that its hard to make an educated guess let alone an honest assessment. But IMO Nynaeve's breadth of healing skills cannot be ignored.

She only has a marginally better knowledge base than any other contender - even Samitsu isn't lacking that much.

Well if you dont count her 3 major discoveries as significant, or that their arent very helpful, that is true. I disagree with that assumption. Especially considering there isn't a vast gap in the ability to heal injuries and illness between Sumeko and Nynaeve. Thats the problem... we are told that Sumeko's is better at HEaling better, but not given examples. Its she 10% faster and uses less power? Are the patients less exhausted? DO they have more function post healing? THere is no evidence in the text that Sumeko has succeeded where Nynaeve has failed, and there doesn't' seem to be a lot of opportunity for that kind of evidence given the time that they are together in Caemlyn. On a ten point scale, I would probably put Sumeko at a 10, and Nynaeve at a 9 in HEaling right now.

 

Samitsu? She is the best at traditional healing, but are there any scenarios where that is an advantage over 5 power healing? Hmmm.. I didnt think so, but I will have to think on this

 

Let me ask you this: If you wanted one healer at your side in a foxhole, through thick and thin, who do you want out of all of candidates, disregarding their relative offensive talents?

I would want the person best able to keep me alive and fighting. Ability to Heal stilling, or remove the taint, or compulsion are unimportant. Semi loses out due to her propensity to hurt people, Nynaeve due to her skills being surpassed by others and her knowledge being irrelevant, Samitsu due to her Healing leaving me weaker in the short term - useful for her if she has to Heal hundreds of people, but no benefit to me in that situation - therefore it would have to be either Flinn or Sumeko. I have no rational basis for giving one the edge over the other.

 

Fair enough. I just hope that neither the hypothetical Randlander version of you nor any of your allies is stilled, has the taint, or is compulsed. Or you never have a problem that Aes Sedai generally accept as impossible to heal. It seems as if Nynaeve is able to handle nearly every battlefield injury she come across, but I suppose that their are a limited amount of scenarios where the gap in knowledge between Sumeko would make a critical difference. I chose differently, and have plenty of justification for it.

 

I want to make it clear - I understand your reasoning Mr Ares, and you justify your choice well. But I disagree with the logic that Best Healing Talent = Best Healer based purely ontological reasons. MAny other related factors apply.

[elric]

Siuan clearly stated that the ONLY reason she want Nyn to reheal her stilling is secracy.

 

my personal impression is that Sumako used wave that been better/more advance then Nyn, the way Nyn comment that the yellow will want to question Sum gave me the impression of "and leave me alone" -> yellow finding a bigger fish to grill.

but again is only my personal impression and there is Nyn discoveries to consider as well :)

 

and let not forget Flinn and our beloved angel of marcy (or atleast FALLEN angel) Semi :))

[Damer Sedai]

But our capabilities differ from the innate abilities attached to healing with OP. We can't exactly stimulate cell regeneration (well, we can, but I assume you know that's it's not a cake walk), whereas it seems to be easy work with the OP. The problem is the knowledge of where and how. We have the knowledge and not the ability. It's basically the situation reversed. What I assume happened to Rand wasn't damage/severing of his optical nerve, but over-stimulation and death of a percentage of his cone cells. He could still see, but there was problems with clarity etc. OP can repair this kind of damage easily. Logically however, Nynaeve wouldn't have much knowledge of the eye (no clue as to what cells are most likely) and where she should prod with the OP...hence her not being able to repair the damage.

 

I hesitate to get too deep into this, because One Power healing is involves a lot of hand waving, especially the way most Aes Sedai do it. It acutally seems arbitrary that macular damage cannot be healed without special care using the complex healing, when traumatic brain injury and gaping wounds that destroy muscle, bone, peripheral nerves, ligaments, and arteries, are a piece of cake when the regular One Power is used. I am unaware of any other example of eye damage specifically being healed in the books so we can't assume anything about the difficultly level except perhaps this: the eyes are embryologically differentiated from the neural crest, and they are basically equivalent tissue as the brain. I suspect true brain damage at the level of the central nervous system seems is much more difficult to heal (see Mesaana). Cellular regeneration of the central nervous system is much harder to accomplish than in peripheral nerves or really other body tissues, at least in modern medicine, so maybe it is true as well for the one power. Perhaps this is why the One Power cannot heal insanity.

 

In any case, I am almost certain RJ didnt put as much thought into this little element as we are, so I am not going to read TOO much into the eye injury problem. Its interesting in a case.

 

You're underestimating Semirhage's prodding of pleasure/pain centers. The fact that she knows how to stimulate the neurons so as to keep her subjects alive while simultaneously produce maximum pain shows that she has very high knowledge of what she's actually doing with the power. That's not something we can quite attribute to current AS. Nyn "knows" on an instinctive level, but cells/genes are concepts that are more than likely completely lost on her.

 

Oh, I agree that what Semirhage is doing is difficult, and beyond modern Aes Sedai. You do not need to work at the level of the individual neuron to cause different kinds and intensities of pain (in theory, I swear I am not experimenting on raccoons in my basement!). IN addition, the concept of dying directly from pain is controversial at best, and very rare last I recall. Torture victims usually die from damage from the methods of torture, not the pain itself without underlying medical conditions, or so i was taught. IN theory pain might cause either a massive dump of epinephrine from the adrenal glands, OR overloaded stimuli of the sympathetic chain, which in theory could cause rhythm problems in the heart, or possibly even arrest in a healthy heart, or I suppose severe vasospasm in the coronary or blood vessels of the brain. I am betting the Semi is able to shut down these impulses down at the spinal cord and adrenal glands, and while beyond other chanellers, but she idoes not need to actually work at a microscopic level or anything quite THAT complex.

 

As to Aginor, if his research touches upon genetic engineering/cell biology he doesn't have to be a pharmaceutical manufacturer/medical researcher to contribute to medicine. He may not be directly involved, but if he was as genius as we are to believe, it would silly to assume every scientist in relevant fields wouldn't be well versed in his work and drive a lot of their own research using his findings.

 

I see. I thought you were thing Aginor himself had a big impact in the HEaling world. His research might be very useful to others, but if the AoL is anything like out world, the greatest works came through specialization and I doubt he directly made much contribution to the art of healing in either a scientific, or one power sense.

 

I haven't read the whole of this thread, so I might be repeating someone:

 

There seems to be a fundamental difference between how Nynaeve and Semirhage carry out Healing. Nynaeve delves first, as most Aes Sedai do. As we know, modern Delving was not an AoL Talent. Nynaeve, by statements she has made over several books, has refined the typical Aes Sedai Delving, first by adding all five powers to it, then by seeming to modulate it so she can focus on a particular part of the body (connection to the source, taint in the brain, center of the brain affected by a cut Warder Bond, etc.).

 

In contrast, Semirhage uses her great knowledge of the body's mechanics to directly deal with certain portions of it. She didn't need to delve Cabriana to know where the pain centers were located. For all we know, AoL Healers did diagnostics like modern doctors, then used the OP to deal with the actual Healing.

 

Which brings me to my point: Nynaeve may have a very rudimentary knowledge of human biology. She uses terms like "brain", which shows at least some anatomical knowledge, but clearly Semirhage far outstrips her there. But, while Nynaeve might not have the terminology to describe cells, genes, proteins and so on, but does she need to? Her lack of knowledge of cells certainly didn't stop her from completely regenerating skin, muscle, vasculature and nerves in Rand's hand. And doing so without leaving any scarring, something we know was rare even in the AoL. What's more, she somehow managed to learn enough from his other hand to even reproduce the dragon on his forearm, though she obviously didn't know what mechanism was used to set it in the first place.

 

Similarly, she had no issues repairing central nervous system damage in Naeff. And anyone who's worked in neuroscience knows that that's insanely difficult. She also has no issues purging out poison from Mellisair Chadmar, or handling specific infectious diseases, or even toxins with metaphysical oomph like whatever was killing Talmanes.

 

All these examples show that while Nynaeve's structured knowledge of biology at the cellular and molecular level may be abysmal, that doesn't stop her from operating at those levels. And she operated in those levels with absolute ease. I would say that it is not so much that she isn't aware of these things as that she doesn't possess the terminology to describe them. I doubt even genetic diseases, or cancer, are beyond her ability, for all that she doesn't really know their basis.

 

It might just be that Semirhage's greater knowledge is a moot point in the discussion of who's a better Healer.

 

Great stuff, Fionwe. A lot to think on. Nynaeve intiially did a lot on instinct and as her delving ability has developed she has been able to get more and more "descriptive" detail,even if that information and level is very different that what science gives us here in the (presumed) first age, allowing for more complicated works.

 

As for Nynaeve affecting the brain, is anyone aware of any examples of other Healers treating structural brain injuries? IN addition to the Taint treatment of Naeff, Nynaeve healed Elyane in TGH from a skull fracture, with a likely intercranial bleed, but the injury was acute and presumably the was no direct (shear injury) to the brain, or herniation from terminal swelling in the interval before the healing occurred. BUt there presumably was concussion/impact syndrome and therefore at least some mild swelling/bruising, and after one power healing she seem just fine.

 

As for Cancer/Autoimmune disease, etc... although it would be funny to diagnose Balwer with Lupus or the like, while I suspect that the one power can affect these conditions, I imagine that Nynaeve's delving will need to get a little more sophisticated first. Heck, for autoimmune problems, that may be a condition where herbalism has a better shot of treating, if not curing the problem considering the current state of Randland healthcare.

 

Given Elyane plans for the Kin and healing in Andor, I wonder if there will be another series of protests against the Queen about free national TrakandCare, and how it limits the patients choice from Aes Sedai.

[Suttree]

Ont Sumeko, per 13th depository she is Level 9 strength which means she can travel and use the Choedan Kal. Think it is difficult to say she doesn't have enough strength based off that to do some of the things calld into question above.

 

One last point for me. At the time of Elayne's pov that Sumeko had "outstripped Nynaeve long since.", no one is really arguing that correct? Now we have no way to compare whether Sumeko has greater skill at some of the things Nyn has done since. There is nothing to say Nyn has turned the tables and become more skilled. The evidence simply doesn't exist.

[Damer Sedai]

Ont Sumeko, per 13th depository she is Level 9 strength which means she can travel and use the Choedan Kal. Think it is difficult to say she doesn't have enough strength based off that to do some of the things calld into question above.

 

One last point for me. At the time of Elayne's pov that Sumeko had "outstripped Nynaeve long since.", no one is really arguing that correct? Now we have no way to compare whether Sumeko has greater skill at some of the things Nyn has done since. There is nothing to say Nyn has turned the tables and become more skilled. The evidence simply doesn't exist.

 

Sure thing, Scalia :)

[driedraspberry]

But our capabilities differ from the innate abilities attached to healing with OP. We can't exactly stimulate cell regeneration (well, we can, but I assume you know that's it's not a cake walk), whereas it seems to be easy work with the OP. The problem is the knowledge of where and how. We have the knowledge and not the ability. It's basically the situation reversed. What I assume happened to Rand wasn't damage/severing of his optical nerve, but over-stimulation and death of a percentage of his cone cells. He could still see, but there was problems with clarity etc. OP can repair this kind of damage easily. Logically however, Nynaeve wouldn't have much knowledge of the eye (no clue as to what cells are most likely) and where she should prod with the OP...hence her not being able to repair the damage.

 

I hesitate to get too deep into this, because One Power healing is involves a lot of hand waving, especially the way most Aes Sedai do it. It acutally seems arbitrary that macular damage cannot be healed without special care using the complex healing, when traumatic brain injury and gaping wounds that destroy muscle, bone, peripheral nerves, ligaments, and arteries, are a piece of cake when the regular One Power is used. I am unaware of any other example of eye damage specifically being healed in the books so we can't assume anything about the difficultly level except perhaps this: the eyes are embryologically differentiated from the neural crest, and they are basically equivalent tissue as the brain. I suspect true brain damage at the level of the central nervous system seems is much more difficult to heal (see Mesaana). Cellular regeneration of the central nervous system is much harder to accomplish than in peripheral nerves or really other body tissues, at least in modern medicine, so maybe it is true as well for the one power. Perhaps this is why the One Power cannot heal insanity.

 

In any case, I am almost certain RJ didnt put as much thought into this little element as we are, so I am not going to read TOO much into the eye injury problem. Its interesting in a case.

 

You're underestimating Semirhage's prodding of pleasure/pain centers. The fact that she knows how to stimulate the neurons so as to keep her subjects alive while simultaneously produce maximum pain shows that she has very high knowledge of what she's actually doing with the power. That's not something we can quite attribute to current AS. Nyn "knows" on an instinctive level, but cells/genes are concepts that are more than likely completely lost on her.

 

Oh, I agree that what Semirhage is doing is difficult, and beyond modern Aes Sedai. You do not need to work at the level of the individual neuron to cause different kinds and intensities of pain (in theory, I swear I am not experimenting on raccoons in my basement!). IN addition, the concept of dying directly from pain is controversial at best, and very rare last I recall. Torture victims usually die from damage from the methods of torture, not the pain itself without underlying medical conditions, or so i was taught. IN theory pain might cause either a massive dump of epinephrine from the adrenal glands, OR overloaded stimuli of the sympathetic chain, which in theory could cause rhythm problems in the heart, or possibly even arrest in a healthy heart, or I suppose severe vasospasm in the coronary or blood vessels of the brain. I am betting the Semi is able to shut down these impulses down at the spinal cord and adrenal glands, and while beyond other chanellers, but she idoes not need to actually work at a microscopic level or anything quite THAT complex.

 

As to Aginor, if his research touches upon genetic engineering/cell biology he doesn't have to be a pharmaceutical manufacturer/medical researcher to contribute to medicine. He may not be directly involved, but if he was as genius as we are to believe, it would silly to assume every scientist in relevant fields wouldn't be well versed in his work and drive a lot of their own research using his findings.

 

I see. I thought you were thing Aginor himself had a big impact in the HEaling world. His research might be very useful to others, but if the AoL is anything like out world, the greatest works came through specialization and I doubt he directly made much contribution to the art of healing in either a scientific, or one power sense.

 

I haven't read the whole of this thread, so I might be repeating someone:

 

There seems to be a fundamental difference between how Nynaeve and Semirhage carry out Healing. Nynaeve delves first, as most Aes Sedai do. As we know, modern Delving was not an AoL Talent. Nynaeve, by statements she has made over several books, has refined the typical Aes Sedai Delving, first by adding all five powers to it, then by seeming to modulate it so she can focus on a particular part of the body (connection to the source, taint in the brain, center of the brain affected by a cut Warder Bond, etc.).

 

In contrast, Semirhage uses her great knowledge of the body's mechanics to directly deal with certain portions of it. She didn't need to delve Cabriana to know where the pain centers were located. For all we know, AoL Healers did diagnostics like modern doctors, then used the OP to deal with the actual Healing.

 

Which brings me to my point: Nynaeve may have a very rudimentary knowledge of human biology. She uses terms like "brain", which shows at least some anatomical knowledge, but clearly Semirhage far outstrips her there. But, while Nynaeve might not have the terminology to describe cells, genes, proteins and so on, but does she need to? Her lack of knowledge of cells certainly didn't stop her from completely regenerating skin, muscle, vasculature and nerves in Rand's hand. And doing so without leaving any scarring, something we know was rare even in the AoL. What's more, she somehow managed to learn enough from his other hand to even reproduce the dragon on his forearm, though she obviously didn't know what mechanism was used to set it in the first place.

 

Similarly, she had no issues repairing central nervous system damage in Naeff. And anyone who's worked in neuroscience knows that that's insanely difficult. She also has no issues purging out poison from Mellisair Chadmar, or handling specific infectious diseases, or even toxins with metaphysical oomph like whatever was killing Talmanes.

 

All these examples show that while Nynaeve's structured knowledge of biology at the cellular and molecular level may be abysmal, that doesn't stop her from operating at those levels. And she operated in those levels with absolute ease. I would say that it is not so much that she isn't aware of these things as that she doesn't possess the terminology to describe them. I doubt even genetic diseases, or cancer, are beyond her ability, for all that she doesn't really know their basis.

 

It might just be that Semirhage's greater knowledge is a moot point in the discussion of who's a better Healer.

 

Great stuff, Fionwe. A lot to think on. Nynaeve intiially did a lot on instinct and as her delving ability has developed she has been able to get more and more "descriptive" detail,even if that information and level is very different that what science gives us here in the (presumed) first age, allowing for more complicated works.

 

As for Nynaeve affecting the brain, is anyone aware of any examples of other Healers treating structural brain injuries? IN addition to the Taint treatment of Naeff, Nynaeve healed Elyane in TGH from a skull fracture, with a likely intercranial bleed, but the injury was acute and presumably the was no direct (shear injury) to the brain, or herniation from terminal swelling in the interval before the healing occurred. BUt there presumably was concussion/impact syndrome and therefore at least some mild swelling/bruising, and after one power healing she seem just fine.

 

As for Cancer/Autoimmune disease, etc... although it would be funny to diagnose Balwer with Lupus or the like, while I suspect that the one power can affect these conditions, I imagine that Nynaeve's delving will need to get a little more sophisticated first. Heck, for autoimmune problems, that may be a condition where herbalism has a better shot of treating, if not curing the problem considering the current state of Randland healthcare.

 

Given Elyane plans for the Kin and healing in Andor, I wonder if there will be another series of protests against the Queen about free national TrakandCare, and how it limits the patients choice from Aes Sedai.

 

I have a hard time believing Semi couldn't have fixed the damage to Rand's eyes (which in all likely hood, was solely to the photoreceptors). In fact Nyn said if she does attempt it she could blind him, which suggests she couldn't pinpoint the location of damage and that was the primary issue. Semi obviously wouldn't have the problem.

 

As to Semi requiring no knowledge at the neural level...sorry but how would you get that idea? She would at the very least be familiar with general principles of neurotransmitters and hyperstimulation, otherwise she could hardly hope to achieve sustained excitatory/inhibitory states or increase/decrease the level of perceived sensory response at precise increments as she considered she was doing.

 

To add to that Semi can make a blood substitute, which goes to show how steep her knowledge at the cellular level runs. AoLers had modern medicine, they had advanced genetic technology. Considering what Aginor could do with that level of knowledge and equipment, why assume the famed Semirhage would be any less innovative? Less than Nyn? Nah. Not logically.

[Entreri]

In response to Ares:

 

"Books say Sumeko is better."

 

Not they do not. Elayne thinks Sumeko is better. Elayne with her great healing skills would be a wonderful judge, no doubt. We have never seen Sumeko perform anything or discover anything which is remotely close to remarkable, unlike Nyaneve.

 

"So many? You mean one. And, again, making new discoveries doesn't matter when it is the application that is under discussion."

 

Severing and curing madness. Her greatest discovery could well be in AmoL. The greatest of a particular field are the people who make new discoveries. In a span of around a year, Nyaneve made two remarkable ones in healing.

 

"Rand is no AS at all, still less the greatest of all time"

 

????

 

Rand gained all of LTT's knowledge. He considered himself an Aes Sedai, only one remaining not turned to the Shadow. He was considered the greatest man of his Age, led the Aes Sedai. He is without a doubt the greatest AS of all time, the only person all the Chosen all fear.

 

Even the Chosen agree (Messana PoV, if LTT was not around, Demandred would have been the greatest man in AoL etc).

 

His persecptive of Nyaneve's abilties thus have tremendous weight.

 

If you don't think Rand Sedai is the greatest Aes Sedai of all time, who is your choice?

[elric]

as far as i recall LTT wasnt the greatest AS but the greatest Hero/Champion.

 

but i agrea that rand currently can be claimed to be an AoL AS in knowledge

the book clearly say he have LTT memories , but it not clear if its only personal memory or include channeling , all the new fighting waves the book specify that he use was during the inner dialog time.

[fionwe1987]

But in Naeff's case she didn't repair anything. If we are to to take RJ's word as fact about OP not being able to heal madness, then what she did was remove the taint, which is an external magical substance.

She heals the damage to the brain done by the thorns of the taint:

 

She Delved deeper. The darkness had tiny, thornlike projections stuck into Naeff's mind. She ignored the people gathering around

her, and inspected those thorns. She carefully used weaves of Spirit to pry one free. It came out with some resistance, and she quickly Healed the spot where it had punctured Naeff's flesh. The brain seemed to pulse, looking more healthy.

 

She's Healing microscopic parts of the brain. While those are most likely not individual neurons or glia, they're certainly not whole tissue either. And since after her Healing, the brain seems to "pulse" and look healthier, it seems to me that the description implies that the natural circuitry that was damaged is back to functioning again.

 

Based on the description, I'd say the taint sends thorn-like structures to damage neuronal circuits, then substitutes those with an altered network. Notce Nynaeve's description of the taint:

 

She could see the madness, like a dark network of veins digging into his mind. It seemed to pulse, like a small beating heart.

 

There's a substitute network, and it has taken over certain parts of Naeff's sensory processing, at the very least, and also likely to have altered his memory, thus allowing him to hallucinate Myrdraal. Notice that pre-healing, it is the darkness that is pulsing. Post-healing, it is the brain that is pulsing. To me, that implies that information flow was through the veins of darkness before, and after Nynaeve individually Healed the "dead spots" in Naeff's brain and removed their cause, his natural circuitry was restored, and information flow was directed through them.

 

This is insanely advanced work. Naeff had no side effects, and his memory of his hallucinations is intact too. The sudden alteration in his visual cognition did not confuse him or send him into shock. Which means Nynaeve didn't simply regenerate new neurons to replace the dead stuff (new neurons, having had no experience dependent alterations, wouldn't have been able to take over smoothly). Nynaeve didn't perform regeneration (itself an immensely complex proposition in the brain). She restored function to damaged CNS tissue. A good correlate would be people have damage in brain regions due to hypoxia or epileptifrom activity. Far in the future, we may be able to restore some function from such damage by introducing stem-cell derived neurons. But we can never make it as if the damage never was. If there's serious damage to the occipital lobe and we regenerate the lobes, the patient would have to relearn how to see and re-form the connections to other visual centers. What Nynaeve did is frankly impossible without something like the OP. She took damaged neurons, and reset the various molecular-genetic circuits to normalcy, but did so in a way that this return to normal function was seamless, and didn't affect connected neurons. That's high levels of precision, and if you can do that, you can do anything to the body.

 

How I see it is that Nyn hits her limits when she has to fine tune her weaving to a very specific location.

Clearly not, as we saw above.

This is the case with Rand's eyes. And it would also be the case if she were to damage a neurodegenerative disease.

Nynaeve didn't say she couldn't Heal Rand's eyes. Just that she wanted to study it more. And this was before her Delving abilities took a leap (probably since the time she was forced by Rand to deal with compulsion). Secondly, Rand says in tGS that his eyesight was slowly getting better on its own. Which implies to me that this is a case of something that should be left alone to Heal naturally. Rand was hit with blinding light that probably maxed out various receptors in his visual pathway. After what she did with Naeff, I'm sure Nynaeve could deal with that, but she might also have left it to heal on its own if it showed signs of doing so.

There is no reason to believe Nyn can heal cancer, or autoimmune diseases. Anything that can't be healed by extracting an foreign substance and stimulating cell regeneration.

That's a meaningless distinction. The genetic circuits involved in regeneration are the same ones getting unregulated in cancer. And if Nynaeve can extract herbal toxins from all over the body, she can do any kind of molecular alterations. And if she can heal arthritis, she can deal with any other autoimmune diseases (Elayne offers to have one of the Kin Heal her old maid who has stiff joints). Unless you subscribe to the antiquated notion that biological components of the body have some special properties, there's no reason to think external agents like poisons will require less work than internal components of a disease. Not to mention Nynaeve has no issues dealing with any number of infectious diseases.

 

welcome to the thread fionwe :)

 

i disgarea with u on 1 thing , we dont know that Semi or AoL healer didnt delved

about semi not delving to find Cabriana pain and pleasure centers, i'm under the impression that even if u drunk + drug semi and then wake her up in the middle of night and blindfold her , she be able to find the pain and pleasure center in an alien mind :)))

We know from the Glossary that Delving as the Aes Sedai do it was not used in the AoL. And since the one time any AoL version could have shown up, we didn't see any such thing, there's a reasonable case for there being no Delving equivalent in the AoL.

 

One last point for me. At the time of Elayne's pov that Sumeko had "outstripped Nynaeve long since.", no one is really arguing that correct?

Whyever not? Elayne and Egwene's comprehension of Healing seems restricted to "complex weaves are made". I'm doubtful if either is a great judge of the nuances of Healing, which is where differences between Nynaeev and Sumeko are likely to show up.

Now we have no way to compare whether Sumeko has greater skill at some of the things Nyn has done since. There is nothing to say Nyn has turned the tables and become more skilled. The evidence simply doesn't exist.

Why? She has clearly shown ability at levels of biological function that we've never seen before. Why would you assume only her skill in Delving improved?

[driedraspberry]

But in Naeff's case she didn't repair anything. If we are to to take RJ's word as fact about OP not being able to heal madness, then what she did was remove the taint, which is an external magical substance.

She heals the damage to the brain done by the thorns of the taint:

 

She Delved deeper. The darkness had tiny, thornlike projections stuck into Naeff's mind. She ignored the people gathering around

her, and inspected those thorns. She carefully used weaves of Spirit to pry one free. It came out with some resistance, and she quickly Healed the spot where it had punctured Naeff's flesh. The brain seemed to pulse, looking more healthy.

 

She's Healing microscopic parts of the brain. While those are most likely not individual neurons or glia, they're certainly not whole tissue either. And since after her Healing, the brain seems to "pulse" and look healthier, it seems to me that the description implies that the natural circuitry that was damaged is back to functioning again.

 

Based on the description, I'd say the taint sends thorn-like structures to damage neuronal circuits, then substitutes those with an altered network. Notce Nynaeve's description of the taint:

 

She could see the madness, like a dark network of veins digging into his mind. It seemed to pulse, like a small beating heart.

 

There's a substitute network, and it has taken over certain parts of Naeff's sensory processing, at the very least, and also likely to have altered his memory, thus allowing him to hallucinate Myrdraal. Notice that pre-healing, it is the darkness that is pulsing. Post-healing, it is the brain that is pulsing. To me, that implies that information flow was through the veins of darkness before, and after Nynaeve individually Healed the "dead spots" in Naeff's brain and removed their cause, his natural circuitry was restored, and information flow was directed through them.

 

This is insanely advanced work. Naeff had no side effects, and his memory of his hallucinations is intact too. The sudden alteration in his visual cognition did not confuse him or send him into shock. Which means Nynaeve didn't simply regenerate new neurons to replace the dead stuff (new neurons, having had no experience dependent alterations, wouldn't have been able to take over smoothly). Nynaeve didn't perform regeneration (itself an immensely complex proposition in the brain). She restored function to damaged CNS tissue. A good correlate would be people have damage in brain regions due to hypoxia or epileptifrom activity. Far in the future, we may be able to restore some function from such damage by introducing stem-cell derived neurons. But we can never make it as if the damage never was. If there's serious damage to the occipital lobe and we regenerate the lobes, the patient would have to relearn how to see and re-form the connections to other visual centers. What Nynaeve did is frankly impossible without something like the OP. She took damaged neurons, and reset the various molecular-genetic circuits to normalcy, but did so in a way that this return to normal function was seamless, and didn't affect connected neurons. That's high levels of precision, and if you can do that, you can do anything to the body.

 

How I see it is that Nyn hits her limits when she has to fine tune her weaving to a very specific location.

Clearly not, as we saw above.

This is the case with Rand's eyes. And it would also be the case if she were to damage a neurodegenerative disease.

Nynaeve didn't say she couldn't Heal Rand's eyes. Just that she wanted to study it more. And this was before her Delving abilities took a leap (probably since the time she was forced by Rand to deal with compulsion). Secondly, Rand says in tGS that his eyesight was slowly getting better on its own. Which implies to me that this is a case of something that should be left alone to Heal naturally. Rand was hit with blinding light that probably maxed out various receptors in his visual pathway. After what she did with Naeff, I'm sure Nynaeve could deal with that, but she might also have left it to heal on its own if it showed signs of doing so.

There is no reason to believe Nyn can heal cancer, or autoimmune diseases. Anything that can't be healed by extracting an foreign substance and stimulating cell regeneration.

That's a meaningless distinction. The genetic circuits involved in regeneration are the same ones getting unregulated in cancer. And if Nynaeve can extract herbal toxins from all over the body, she can do any kind of molecular alterations. And if she can heal arthritis, she can deal with any other autoimmune diseases (Elayne offers to have one of the Kin Heal her old maid who has stiff joints). Unless you subscribe to the antiquated notion that biological components of the body have some special properties, there's no reason to think external agents like poisons will require less work than internal components of a disease. Not to mention Nynaeve has no issues dealing with any number of infectious diseases.

 

welcome to the thread fionwe :)

 

i disgarea with u on 1 thing , we dont know that Semi or AoL healer didnt delved

about semi not delving to find Cabriana pain and pleasure centers, i'm under the impression that even if u drunk + drug semi and then wake her up in the middle of night and blindfold her , she be able to find the pain and pleasure center in an alien mind :)))

We know from the Glossary that Delving as the Aes Sedai do it was not used in the AoL. And since the one time any AoL version could have shown up, we didn't see any such thing, there's a reasonable case for there being no Delving equivalent in the AoL.

 

One last point for me. At the time of Elayne's pov that Sumeko had "outstripped Nynaeve long since.", no one is really arguing that correct?

Whyever not? Elayne and Egwene's comprehension of Healing seems restricted to "complex weaves are made". I'm doubtful if either is a great judge of the nuances of Healing, which is where differences between Nynaeev and Sumeko are likely to show up.

Now we have no way to compare whether Sumeko has greater skill at some of the things Nyn has done since. There is nothing to say Nyn has turned the tables and become more skilled. The evidence simply doesn't exist.

Why? She has clearly shown ability at levels of biological function that we've never seen before. Why would you assume only her skill in Delving improved?

 

You've settled the debate on whether or not damage to the CNS can be healed and regenerated using OP. However, notice that Nyn uses the traint as the map. She can't repair damage to complex systems if she doesn't know where to direct her weaves such as is the case with the damaged eye. This would put her at a disadvantage, and below Semirhage.

 

And again with arthritis she knows where to direct her weaves and regenerate. Did she cure the actual autoimmune disease or just the damage? I can't recall.

 

The difference between foreign entities like the taint would be that Nyn can sense them, but she can't seem to pinpoint damage if the target is too small/the organ too complex.

[Damer Sedai]

I have a hard time believing Semi couldn't have fixed the damage to Rand's eyes (which in all likely hood, was solely to the photoreceptors). In fact Nyn said if she does attempt it she could blind him, which suggests she couldn't pinpoint the location of damage and that was the primary issue. Semi obviously wouldn't have the problem.

 

I agree w/ Fionwe, who described it better than I could.

 

As to Semi requiring no knowledge at the neural level...sorry but how would you get that idea? She would at the very least be familiar with general principles of neurotransmitters and hyperstimulation, otherwise she could hardly hope to achieve sustained excitatory/inhibitory states or increase/decrease the level of perceived sensory response at precise increments as she considered she was doing.

 

Precisely Semhirage located the center's of woman brain that received messages of pain from the body, and just as meticulous began to stimulate them with Spirit and Fire. Only a little at first, building slowly. Too much at once could kill in moments, yet it was remarkable how far the system could be taken if fed in finely increasing increments. Working with something you could not see was difficult, even this close, but she was a knowledgable about the human body as anyone had every been. LOC, Ch4

 

That reads exactly like Deep Brain Stimulation, but instead of microvolts of electricity on tiny platinum leads, instead weaves of OP trigger pain-centered nuclei (collections of neural tracts) target areas in the brain: specifically in the thalamus, brains stem, the primary sensory cortex, cingulate gyrus,etc The reference to her anatomy skills would explain that she knows these very small, but identifiable landmarks of neuroanatomy... which is impressive but credible. There is no way, without some special power, that Semi can identify single neurons to trigger based on knowledge, and weaving Fire and Spirit in 10 micron thick tendrils with that level of precision also beggars belief. Furthermore, its not necessary... acting at the neuronal tract level should get the effect that Semhirage is looking for, given her more than sufficient experience and talent.

 

To add to that Semi can make a blood substitute, which goes to show how steep her knowledge at the cellular level runs. AoLers had modern medicine, they had advanced genetic technology. Considering what Aginor could do with that level of knowledge and equipment, why assume the famed Semirhage would be any less innovative? Less than Nyn? Nah. Not logically.

 

I dont deny that Semi has an extensive knowledge of anatomy and biology, even at the microsopic level. Its just hard to channel at that micrometer level when you can't see what you are working with.

 

We dont know exactly how Aginor preformed his horrific experiments, but I expect that it involved a lot of time, equipment that is no longer available in the 3rd age, AND the OP. ITs probably why Aginor ended up as second rate muscle instead of creating more armies and other science/magic hybrid monstrosities for Team Dark.

[elric]

"We know from the Glossary that Delving as the Aes Sedai do it was not used in the AoL"

and we also know that the forsaken view the AS healing as crude battlfield Medic

and we also know that Nyn (and to my believe Sumako) use very diffrent and better methods of healing then what the AS use (or used to regarding Salidar)

 

so u can claim that Nyn use a version of delving Semi is using, which is not Delving as the Aes Sedai do it .

(btw nice points regarding the neuro healing of the brain :) )

[Kahsm]

Re: fionwe1987's delving theory.

 

It's entirely possible that semi just doesn't have to Delve anymore. Due to pure experience. Like when Kovach from ER goes to the Sudan or whatever and then when he comes back he stops using X-Rays and MRI's because he learned how to diagnose broken bones and such using other methods.

 

Doesn't mean that she never did at one point. The times we see Nynaeve delving, she's basically learning how the body works at that level. We don't even know that she'd still delve if she saw a similar ailment. Maybe she'd just slap on the same stuff she used last time.

 

For all we know, the way that Nynaeve delves is the way the AoL delved, which is the difference with the typical AS delving. Semi could be like Dr.House, just prostar diagnostician. She COULD do all the expensive tests, by why bother?

[elric]

i think beeing killed at the VERY START help in neutrelising Aginor as well :)

[Suttree]

Severing and curing madness.

 

Cough cough...removing the taint. Per RJ the OP can not cure madness. Hope to being saying this for the last time.

[BFG]

One last point for me. At the time of Elayne's pov that Sumeko had "outstripped Nynaeve long since.", no one is really arguing that correct?

Whyever not? Elayne and Egwene's comprehension of Healing seems restricted to "complex weaves are made". I'm doubtful if either is a great judge of the nuances of Healing, which is where differences between Nynaeev and Sumeko are likely to show up.

 

Just one thing - Elayne has no particular skillfor healing, so for her to make the comment it has to be based on easy to observe things, ease of healing, the effect of healing, the time taken. The book doesn't define what has made Elayne think this, but there's no reason to think that there's no reason behind the thought. She has no reason to lie in her own thoughts.

 

 

 

 

Additionally, with regards to Semi - surely we must acknowledge that she has the potential to be a great healer, but her temperament surely rules this out. At the moment she's using her knowledge to torture people, so although there's no reason to doubt her knowledge, that doesn't make her a good healer. It would be like calling Harold Shipman a good doctor.

[Damer Sedai]

Thanks for the Summary and analysis on the Removal of the Taint, Fionwe - that is exactly sort of detail I was looking for showing Nynaeve's exapnding skills

 

 

You've settled the debate on whether or not damage to the CNS can be healed and regenerated using OP. However, notice that Nyn uses the traint as the map. She can't repair damage to complex systems if she doesn't know where to direct her weaves such as is the case with the damaged eye. This would put her at a disadvantage, and below Semirhage.

 

Well, she couldn't then, in KoD. Perhaps she can now, given her experience with Naeff in TOM. Another example where Delving + Healing are synergistic skills.

 

And again with arthritis she knows where to direct her weaves and regenerate. Did she cure the actual autoimmune disease or just the damage? I can't recall.

sorry to by pedantic, but given her age and movement problems, Essande probably had osteoarthritis, a disease of wear and tear of the joints of cartilage and bone, not rheumatoid arthritis which is an autoimmune disorder (I cant say it for sure of course). And thats why she probably needs routine healing... can't replace missing cartilage, but can heal damages cartilage and threadbare bone, replace synovial fluid, etc.

 

As you folks probably know, using the OP to treat cancer would be a pincic compared to dealing with autoimmune disorders - the dysfunctional cascade of antibodies and interleukins and complement and what all is terribly complex, and cant just be eliminated because it goes part and parcel with the immune system. Unless the OP can be used as an antiinflmmatory (and I suppose it could, but hard), herbs might be the thing.

 

The difference between foreign entities like the taint would be that Nyn can sense them, but she can't seem to pinpoint damage if the target is too small/the organ too complex.

Again, not as of KoD. She is getting better all the time.

[fionwe1987]

You've settled the debate on whether or not damage to the CNS can be healed and regenerated using OP. However, notice that Nyn uses the traint as the map. She can't repair damage to complex systems if she doesn't know where to direct her weaves such as is the case with the damaged eye. This would put her at a disadvantage, and below Semirhage.

Detecting the tain at that resolution actually shows that she can do the same with other kinds of ailments.

And again with arthritis she knows where to direct her weaves and regenerate. Did she cure the actual autoimmune disease or just the damage? I can't recall.

We don't see her Heal the woman. But Nynaeve's Delving has improved to the molecular level, evidenced by her healing Millisair Chadmar. Heck, Siuan does it with Bryne. I fail to see what would stop her from dealing with system wide autoimmune diseases.

The difference between foreign entities like the taint would be that Nyn can sense them, but she can't seem to pinpoint damage if the target is too small/the organ too complex.

Well, unless huge solid lumps of poison float around inside people, Nynaeve has shown she can indeed pinpoint very tiny bits of damage.

As you folks probably know, using the OP to treat cancer would be a pincic compared to dealing with autoimmune disorders - the dysfunctional cascade of antibodies and interleukins and complement and what all is terribly complex, and cant just be eliminated because it goes part and parcel with the immune system. Unless the OP can be used as an antiinflmmatory (and I suppose it could, but hard), herbs might be the thing.

What makes you think that? A localized stage one tumor, sure. Any metastatic cancer is going to be at least as complex as autoimmune diseases, let alone paraneoplastic syndrome and other complications. And if Nynaeve has enough skill to not just regenerate burned skin but to be able to extract information on changed pigmentation of the skin before it was burned and replicate it, she can certainly do any kind of modulation needed for reversing autoimmunity, rather than simply providing temporary relief.

 

Just one thing - Elayne has no particular skillfor healing, so for her to make the comment it has to be based on easy to observe things, ease of healing, the effect of healing, the time taken. The book doesn't define what has made Elayne think this, but there's no reason to think that there's no reason behind the thought. She has no reason to lie in her own thoughts.

We've seen Nynaeve handle immensely complex Healing without difficulty, and effect of Healing and time taken is the same with the OP. Whatever differences exist between Nynaeve and Sumeko are going to be subtle. That's why its necessary to take Elayne's word with a grain of salt.

Additionally, with regards to Semi - surely we must acknowledge that she has the potential to be a great healer, but her temperament surely rules this out. At the moment she's using her knowledge to torture people, so although there's no reason to doubt her knowledge, that doesn't make her a good healer. It would be like calling Harold Shipman a good doctor.

That's a valid point. I think, though, that the debate has moved onto technical skills, rather than overall effectiveness.

 

"We know from the Glossary that Delving as the Aes Sedai do it was not used in the AoL"

and we also know that the forsaken view the AS healing as crude battlfield Medic

and we also know that Nyn (and to my believe Sumako) use very diffrent and better methods of healing then what the AS use (or used to regarding Salidar)

 

so u can claim that Nyn use a version of delving Semi is using, which is not Delving as the Aes Sedai do it .

(btw nice points regarding the neuro healing of the brain :) )

That's terrible logic. For one, the Aes Sedai have knowledge that the Foresaken don't. Add to that, what reason do we have to believe that Nynaeve hit upon a Delving method similar to the AoL? Just because she does it differently from modern AS doesn't mean she does it like the ancient AS (if they did it at all).

[Damer Sedai]

One last point for me. At the time of Elayne's pov that Sumeko had "outstripped Nynaeve long since.", no one is really arguing that correct?

Whyever not? Elayne and Egwene's comprehension of Healing seems restricted to "complex weaves are made". I'm doubtful if either is a great judge of the nuances of Healing, which is where differences between Nynaeev and Sumeko are likely to show up.

 

Just one thing - Elayne has no particular skillfor healing, so for her to make the comment it has to be based on easy to observe things, ease of healing, the effect of healing, the time taken. The book doesn't define what has made Elayne think this, but there's no reason to think that there's no reason behind the thought. She has no reason to lie in her own thoughts.

 

I suspect that the method by why which Elayne measures Sumeko's skill relative to Nynaeve, and I say this with love, is by intensity of braid pulling, glares,sniffing and the occasional spell of temper on Nynaaeve's part.

 

Additionally, with regards to Semi - surely we must acknowledge that she has the potential to be a great healer, but her temperament surely rules this out. At the moment she's using her knowledge to torture people, so although there's no reason to doubt her knowledge, that doesn't make her a good healer. It would be like calling Harold Shipman a good doctor.

 

I agree! I said the same early in the thread, but that interests no one.

[elric]

i was showing that like u use "We know from the Glossary that Delving as the Aes Sedai do it was not used in the AoL" to claim Semi dont delve, u can use the SAME argument to claim Nyn delve like in AoL.

 

yes IT is a terrible logic , on BOTH cases :).

[Damer Sedai]

As you folks probably know, using the OP to treat cancer would be a pincic compared to dealing with autoimmune disorders - the dysfunctional cascade of antibodies and interleukins and complement and what all is terribly complex, and cant just be eliminated because it goes part and parcel with the immune system. Unless the OP can be used as an antiinflmmatory (and I suppose it could, but hard), herbs might be the thing.

What makes you think that? A localized stage one tumor, sure. Any metastatic cancer is going to be at least as complex as autoimmune diseases, let alone paraneoplastic syndrome and other complications. And if Nynaeve has enough skill to not just regenerate burned skin but to be able to extract information on changed pigmentation of the skin before it was burned and replicate it, she can certainly do any kind of modulation needed for reversing autoimmunity, rather than simply providing temporary relief.

I disagree. The one advantage with cancer, no matter the staging or level of metastasis, is that you have the same undifferentiated cell to identify, isolate, and remove throughout the body- probably not that dissimilar to the tiny black hooks seen when Nynaeve was Removing the Taint (happy, Suttree?) . Paraneoplastic syndrome is typical secreted directly by the tumor or are a immune response to the tumor, and therefore you don't even have to address to hormonal changes... remove the tumor, treat the syndrome.

 

There is no single concrete factor to remove, add, or 'fix' in autoimmunity, far too often. Half the time Immunologists don't seem to understand the complex cascades that occurs in the 80+ autoimmune conditions. We have less than mediocre tests to identify autoimmune conditions, and that speaks to how hard they are to identify, let alone treat. I have no idea how Delving would frame and/or identify the problems. There are a lot more moving parts compared to cancers, as they are include dysfunctional B cells AND T cells in most cases, with very little to differentiate them from happy healthy B and T cells. How would you use the OP to alter the memory B cells that carry the Ab that causes these conditions to persist? How would you stop triggering of complement cascades, and antibody/antigen complexes, etc.? There are a lot more moving parts. here. You can suppress the whole immune process, but if permanent that often seriously compromises the immune system, which is a big deal in a pre-industrial pre-plumbing society unless your OP healer is on your beck and call.

 

Much simpler to look for, and identify, a single type of bad actor such as cancer, no matter how microscopic, and then remove it; rather than wade into the swamp of autoimmune conditions.

 

PS - I know I am intentionally simplifying cancer and autoimmune disorders, but we have gone far afield already, and only a select few of us are interested I think.

[Suttree]

not that dissimilar to the tiny black hooks seen when Nynaeve was Removing the Taint (happy, Suttree?) .

 

Good man...

[Damer Sedai]

not that dissimilar to the tiny black hooks seen when Nynaeve was Removing the Taint (happy, Suttree?) .

 

Good man...

not that dissimilar to the tiny black hooks seen when Nynaeve was Removing the Taint (happy, Suttree?) .

 

Good man...

 

I live to serve.