The best Healer in WoT ?

[Entreri]

Nyaneve did heal madness as well, before long probably death.

 

Removing the taint from the mind is not healing madness. Theys are seperate things. Per RJ...

 

Interview: Oct 9th, 1996

Robert Jordan

 

Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords. In the Prologue to The Eye of the World we saw True Power used to heal insanity. The One Power cannot be used to heal insanity.

 

In relation to knowledge lost that Semi would know here is another quote from Nyn...

 

LoC

And all that knowledge lost. Moghedien might know nothing of Healing, but she had given Nynaeve a dozen hints of what was possible, and there had to be more in her head. With those to guide her, what might she discover eventually?

 

I guess it really comes down to definition. Skill and innovation perhaps Nyn(although we know Semi experimented widely with pain) in terms of knowledge most certainly it goes to Semi. Also that same passage shows Moggy put her on the right track fo that new type of healing. Sumeko discovered it all on her own. That is a pretty large check for innovation.

 

Nyaneve did cure madness, as stated by Rand. Now there is the madness caused by the taint and there is other types of madness. If that quote is accurate, TP cures both.

 

Moghdien??? She can probably heal a small wound. According to her confession to Shai'tan, she was trying to lead Nyaneve et al astray as much as possbile.

 

As for overall knowledge, it is likely Semirhage, instead of Sumeko. Overall skills/innovation, that is all Nynaeve.

 

Like I said: Nyaneve, Flinn, Semirhage and Sumkeo, in that order.

[Mr Ares]

I do find it odd that people are voting for Nyn when the book tells us Sumeko is better....

It's a combination of Nynaeve being a more well known and prominent character - so her achievements are more noted - and her being liked more. Also, people using skewed definitions. Nynaeve might have more innovations to her name than the other Healers, but her ability to actually cure an illness or heal an injury are not as good as some of the others. If people prize innovation more highly than the ability to Heal, then they will vote Nynaeve more than the others.If the correct way of dealing with the problem is not known, Nynaeve has a better chance of finding it than some of the others. But when a solution is known, others are better able to implement the solution than Nynaeve.

 

Actually, its not just a matter of familiarity.... its a matter of definitions.

Yes, that's exactly what I said.

The Poll does not ask "who is better at the Talent Healing" it ask who is the best healer.

Well, unless we are using the metric of best healer without the OP, it's an irrelevant distinction.

While Sumeko (and others?) may be able to outstrip Nynaeve at both 3 power and 5 power healing of wounds and illnesses, there is no indication that she can heal stilling, and based on circumstance would have no ability to to cure taint-inspired madness or lift compulsion, both which fit under the broad umbrella of a Healer's pervue.

There is no indication that anyone capable of Healing is incapable of Healing stilling if they know the method. Likewise removing the taint and lifting compulsion. Healing with the OP outstrips Healing without, so by any objective measure the only candidates are those who use the OP to Heal. After that, Talent for Healing, knowledge of how to Heal and strength in the Power are all important, and the first of those is the only one which cannot be changed - one can learn new weaves or use an angreal, but one cannot just get more Talent, at least so far as we have seen. So, who has the greatest Talent for Healing?

 

I am on the the same page with Mr Ares on one point - how do we value innovation? And on what scale? Sure for the individual soldier or plague victim, Sumeko is your best bet. But for Randland in general, and for future in the fourth Age, I will take Nynaeve's impact on the world every time. In Medicine we remember Alfred Blaylock, father of pediatric cardiac surgery, even though every modern surgeon in the field outstrips him in skill by several degrees.

While Nynaeve might have done more to push forward the boundaries of Healing, others are better at Healing than she is. Likewise, modern surgeons in that field might not be doing anything as ground-breaking as what Blaylock did, they are better doctors than him. They are doing the job better.

 

I thought it was established that healing was one of the Talents that women were always stronger in, like Men and Gateways. Now I'm going to rack my brain for that quote, I could have sworn someone said it (Moriane, or a forsaken or someone).

There is no indication, that I am aware of, that either of those things is true. The only person known to have a Talent for Gateways is a man, but we have nothing to say that it is more common or more powerful in men.

 

Of course Sumeko would know things that Nynaeve does not know. Sumeko is 100's of years older. That does not mean that Sumkeo is more skilled than Nyaneve, all the evidence points to a different conclusion.

What evidence points to Nynaeve having more skill than Sumeko? Or Samitsu, Flinn or Semi, for that matter? Note, I do not consider innovation to be an indicator of skill at Healing - the skill is the application of the knowledge. Nynaeve being more skilled at innovating means she is better at innovating, not Healing.

 

Beside a few handful, nobody else thought Gawyn was the best blademaster. Lan has always been protrayed as the best.

But a few have thought, for no good reason, that Gawyn was better than Galad. Likewise people can think, for no good reason, that Nynaeve is a better Healer than anyone you care to name. What indicates than Nynaeve can Heal any given condition better than someone else from our list of candidates who knows how to Heal it? Nynaeve hasn't been portrayed as the best Healer, any more than she has been portrayed as the strongest channeler. She's one of the best, but not the best. Rand's amazement is neither here nor there, nor is how amazing LTT was.

 

Being the the greatest healer in AoL, she still has not discovered how to heal severing, which is huge concern to Aes Sedai.

So? If Nynave makes one discovery, but Semi can do everything else better than Nynaeve, why conclude that Nynaeve is better? (And don't get hung up on Semi being better - that's not what I'm claiming, I'm pointing out that one discovery does not justify one being considered the best in your field if others do the job better.)

 

I don't doubt that Semirhage was learned various techinques in 100's of years, but we have not seen her perform any feats that come remotely close to Nyaneve's.

Which is a point about familiarity, not relative skill. We have seen Nynaeve do more than Semi, that does not mean that she is better, it means we have seen her do more. Why conclude that her accomplishements cannot be great compared to Nynaeve's? That makes no sense. While we don't have alot to go on, that merely makes it hard to judge their relative skill, it doesn't mean that the skill of one is higher than the other. Give some evidence to support Nynaeve being better. What can she do better than Semi can?

 

I'm not a big fan of posting "nyn's better!" "no semi's better!" (Sut you're not the one doing this)

Suttree isn't doing it at all.

 

Didn't Samistu bring Dobraine back so close from the brink of death that people already said he was dead? - If that can be agreed upon, and everyone has already said that Nyn, Semuko, Semi, and Flinn all far outstripe Samistu then the back from the brink part of Semi and the AoL being above Nyn, Semuko, and Flinn does not qualify for me. Obviously Samistu is the best of the Aes Sedai healer (pre Nyn) so I'm not saying Semi isn't still phenominal, just that this is not a qualification for being better than the other three.

Who is saying that the others have outstripped Samitsu? What has been admitted is that Flinn did something she couldn't. Bear in mind she's an AS, and therefore has existed for a long time in a culture than frowns on innovation. If we discard innovation as a relevant metric of skill, and merely compare the application of their knowledge of Healing (not their ability to discover new knowlege), what reason do we have to believe that any of these has outstripped her, let alone all of them?

 

The big problem is that we lack, in many cases, direct comparisons of skill. Therefore we have little, if any, basis for a reliable conclusion about who is the best. Just personal preference. And sometimes personal preference is leading people to ignore the facts we do have, like us being told that Sumeko is better than Nynaeve.

[Kahsm]

I can pull quotes later but off the top I my head this "new method" of healing that has recently been discovered was the standard method before. Nyn, Flinn etc are just starting to learn what can be done while in the AoL you had large scale centers of learning constantly researching and innovating. For all that forsaken are surprised at some of the things this age has come up with(warder bond etc) for every one of those there are thousands of techniques and methods lost. Semi can't be listed in the same category as these others.

 

While that SHOULD be the case, it'd have been nice if we could SEE some of that lost knowledge come out of the forsaken. Given how much the AOL should know, it would be nice if current age channelers would seem like they're weaving in a different language.

 

For example, if we both speak English, I could invent a turn of phrase like, "That's the bee's knees!" and you'd pretty quickly pick up what I mean as I use it. But if you spoke Japanese, you'd have a much harder time figuring out what I meant by that. I feel like the AOL channelers should channel so fundamentally differently that the current channelers shouldn't be able to understand and mimic so easily.

 

Now you might suggest they don't have to understand, just replicate. But here's another analogy. As a newbie guitarist I learn a bunch of chords. I can play a whole lot of songs with a handful of chords, and I learn new chords pretty easily. But once in awhile there's a chord shape that comes along that's so completely different from the ones I usually use, that I can't instantly pick up how to flow from my current forms into the new one. I have to practice the new position far more than I usually have to, and practice moving between my established ones and this new one.

 

But none of that in WOT. Really makes it hard to believe the AOL was so different, since apparently, somehow, all the staples were remembered but thousands of others were lost. We rarely see the forsaken use anything unknown, we're just told they know it. So does it really matter that they're unknown if they're so useless?

 

Just look at the not-so-slight differences between Wise Ones and Aes Sedai. That should be magnified a bajillion times when thinking back to how the AOL was.

 

I do find it odd that people are voting for Nyn when the book tells us Sumeko is better. I get that some maybe are looking at contributions over all but if we are going off skill alone?

 

Because people don't actually read the words that are on the page. They read what they want to see. Pretty sure I've brought this up in many different contexts...

[Entreri]

A lot of writing. Nobody has convinced me that anyone on the list is a better healer than Nyaneve and certainly not the voting public.

[Finnssss22]

Sumeko for me.

 

“The Wise Ones learned about Healing from me. And from Nynaeve, I suppose,” she allowed after a moment. Oh, Nynaeve would have gone up like an Illuminator’s firework, hearing that. But then, Sumeko had outstripped Nynaeve long since. “And they did learn the simple form from Aes Sedai.” A snort like ripping canvas showed what Sumeko thought of the “simple” form, the only sort of Healing Aes Sedai had known for thousands of years."

 

At the time of this PoV from Elayne, I can agree to a point. Although, I find it curious that Elayne has already forgotten about Nynaeve healing Logain.

At the end of ToM though, it's Nynaeve without question. By her own admission she can now find and do things she couldn't before. Her talent is now more refined than anyone else's.

 

She has now done the impossible twice, healed a severed person and can remove the DO's taint on men.

 

Yep, Nynaeve for me. Sumeko might be more experienced and a broader knowledge base but Nynaeve is the more talented for sure.

[Kahsm]

Sumeko for me.

 

“The Wise Ones learned about Healing from me. And from Nynaeve, I suppose,” she allowed after a moment. Oh, Nynaeve would have gone up like an Illuminator’s firework, hearing that. But then, Sumeko had outstripped Nynaeve long since. “And they did learn the simple form from Aes Sedai.” A snort like ripping canvas showed what Sumeko thought of the “simple” form, the only sort of Healing Aes Sedai had known for thousands of years."

 

At the time of this PoV from Elayne, I can agree to a point. Although, I find it curious that Elayne has already forgotten about Nynaeve healing Logain.

At the end of ToM though, it's Nynaeve without question. By her own admission she can now find and do things she couldn't before. Her talent is now more refined than anyone else's.

 

She has now done the impossible twice, healed a severed person and can remove the DO's taint on men.

 

Yep, Nynaeve for me. Sumeko might be more experienced and a broader knowledge base but Nynaeve is the more talented for sure.

 

That's almost reasonable. Unfortunately, since people still take quotes from the second book to definitively say Gawyn is still better than Galad -- your cause is hopeless.

[Finnssss22]

 

That's almost reasonable. Unfortunately, since people still take quotes from the second book to definitively say Gawyn is still better than Galad -- your cause is hopeless.

 

You mean the other way around don't you?

[Nightstrike]

Most have no channeling potential, and half of those who have potential are men. Healing stilling is less required, and it's not immediately life-threatening. Healing the taint is for men, and once the Bore is unmade it's not an issue any more. I thought more of Healing as what's mostly done than in the broader sense.

[Suttree]

That's almost reasonable. Unfortunately, since people still take quotes from the second book to definitively say Gawyn is still better than Galad -- your cause is hopeless.

 

Come now Kael, don't be disingenuous. You know very well that isn't what people do. They combine those quotes saying Galad is better, with the only objective results we have in the text, and throw in the fact that both authors stated flat out Galad is better. Until we have a way to gauge Galad and Gawyn's recent accomplishments against each other there is nothing to say Gawyn has surpassed him aside from screen time.\

 

A lot of writing. Nobody has convinced me that anyone on the list is a better healer than Nyaneve and certainly not the voting public.

 

A lot of writing from Mr Ares that pretty much shot down the points you've made.

[driedraspberry]

"In an advanced society as that of AoL stilling most likely wasn't a common occurrence, so I doubt Semi spent time studying it.

 

In any case, look at all of Semi's innovation when she describes her torture techniques. Her understanding of how the human body can be manipulated with OP is unmatched.

 

And have we seen current AS heal complex diseases like cancer or autoimmune disorders? Nyn said healing Rand's eyes would be too risky. I imagine these are areas AoLers surpassed current AS"

 

 

It is something that all AS would be concerned about and unquestionably they had studied it extensively. Ishamael himself has stated that it is "impossible".

 

I don't doubt that Semirhage was the best torturer. AoLers could have surpassed the current top healers in some areas and vice versa, Semirhage had not shown an area where she has surpassed Nyaneve in healing. And there is no mention of her big healing "discoveries" in AoL. Aginor for instance is credited with the likes of creating the gholams, Trollocs etc.

 

There is nothing in the books to indicate that Semirhage surpasses Nyaneve in healing.

 

Nyaneve did heal madness as well, before long probably death.

 

So by that logic all current AS and Wise Ones are superior in OP use to AoL AS because they've discovered things that were unknown/considered impossible then...

 

Sorry but that doesn't make sense.

 

The fact that Semi can remove your blood while keeping you alive speaks of her knowledge in the area and her brilliance. Healing and harming go hand in hand. Nyn is a brilliant young healer, but a few discoveries mean nothing when Semi has built a career on doing just that in an age with far higher standards.

 

And considering that AoL was an age of vast research in virtually every field, it's silly to assume there were no discoveries in healing. Semi's torture innovation practically nullifies it.

 

Also Aginor must have been a biologist and knowledgeable of genetics. Both are connected to medical sciences and make it even less likely AS weren't outdoing our modern physicians if their healing was so revered.

[elric]

Dried u nominating Aginor as contender ?

i must say that the biologist part do hold some water.

[Damer Sedai]

Actually, its not just a matter of familiarity.... its a matter of definitions.

Yes, that's exactly what I said.

 

You said skewed definitions, implying that other definitions were in error.. I disagree that all that all that defines a Healer, is the Healing talent - physical wounds and illness. It is the largest part, but there are clearly other skills that fall under the umbrella of healing. How is that skewed? Never mind, not worth discussing.

 

The Poll does not ask "who is better at the Talent Healing" it ask who is the best healer.

Well, unless we are using the metric of best healer without the OP, it's an irrelevant distinction.

 

SO you are saying removing compulsion, healing stilling, and healing madness, are all under the umbrella of the ubiquitous Healing talent? Interesting. Does it say that clearly anywhere one way another, either in the text or in author interviews? Why aren't they separate? Does that mean Calling the lightning, Balls of Fire, Rolling Ring of Earth and Fire, Death BLossoms are all under the "Blowin' Stuff up real good" talent, and if you are better at one your better at all? I assumed they are similar but separate, but perhaps I am misinformed and I would like to have this confirmed one way or another.

 

While Sumeko (and others?) may be able to outstrip Nynaeve at both 3 power and 5 power healing of wounds and illnesses, there is no indication that she can heal stilling, and based on circumstance would have no ability to to cure taint-inspired madness or lift compulsion, both which fit under the broad umbrella of a Healer's pervue.

There is no indication that anyone capable of Healing is incapable of Healing stilling if they know the method. Likewise removing the taint and lifting compulsion. Healing with the OP outstrips Healing without, so by any objective measure the only candidates are those who use the OP to Heal. After that, Talent for Healing, knowledge of how to Heal and strength in the Power are all important, and the first of those is the only one which cannot be changed - one can learn new weaves or use an angreal, but one cannot just get more Talent, at least so far as we have seen. So, who has the greatest Talent for Healing?

 

Facts not in evidence. There also is no indication that everyone that can use Healing can heal stilling, either. Stating that a lack of evidence to the contrary indicates that a proposition is true, in the absence of any positive proof, is usually considered a fallacy of informal logic. Nynaeve used very different weaves to heal stilling than used for conventional healing.

 

"what made you thing of using Fire?" Dagdara asked in a strangled tone " and Earth? You used Earth. Healing is Spirit, Air, and Water" LoC Ch 29

And while Sumeko may have decent strength in Earth and Fire (rarely women do) given that she can used all five powers in healing, is it enough to "bridge the gap" in stilling? . And does Sumeko have sufficient strength in Delving, to even see the tiny black hooks that indicate the Taint induced madness? We know that Delving and Healing do not always go hand in hand: Verin is only so-so at healing (TSR), but is one of the best at Delving (ACOS). There are a lot of exceptions.

 

And there is one case that you are ignoring where Wise Woman style healing is better than OP healing - treating oneself, remember? Other situations would include operation in Seanchen controlled lands (or other places it is dangerous to Channel)... or stedding... or Far Madding... or near Shayol Guhl... get the point? Clearly, Semhirage, Damer, and Samitsu lack in this department. Much harder to compare Sumeko to Nynaeve... Sumeko cleared has a huge edge on experience, and even if she used OP healing most of the time the past 300 years to do her thing, I suspect she had a leg up on even Nynaeve's extensive training in herb lore.

 

And practically, it really doesn't matter if Sumeko has the ability to do the new weaves if taught the proper weaves: while it is possible the Nynaeve taught Sumeko the weaves for healing Stilling while they were in Caemlyn (no indication that it happened, but I guess Idont see why not), Sumeko has had no opportunity to learn the weaves to erase Compulsion or Heal Madness. therefore she can't do them at this time.

 

I am on the the same page with Mr Ares on one point - how do we value innovation? And on what scale? Sure for the individual soldier or plague victim, Sumeko is your best bet. But for Randland in general, and for future in the fourth Age, I will take Nynaeve's impact on the world every time. In Medicine we remember Alfred Blaylock, father of pediatric cardiac surgery, even though every modern surgeon in the field outstrips him in skill by several degrees.

While Nynaeve might have done more to push forward the boundaries of Healing, others are better at Healing than she is. Likewise, modern surgeons in that field might not be doing anything as ground-breaking as what Blaylock did, they are better doctors than him. They are doing the job better.

Um... I agree? Its exactly what I had said in the previous sentence. You can discount innovation if you want, but don't go tell a theoretical physicist that her contributions to physics are meaningless compared to those of the applied physicist. You might get shoved into a LArge Hadron Collider

 

I don't doubt that Semirhage was learned various techinques in 100's of years, but we have not seen her perform any feats that come remotely close to Nyaneve's.

Which is a point about familiarity, not relative skill. We have seen Nynaeve do more than Semi, that does not mean that she is better, it means we have seen her do more. Why conclude that her accomplishements cannot be great compared to Nynaeve's? That makes no sense. While we don't have alot to go on, that merely makes it hard to judge their relative skill, it doesn't mean that the skill of one is higher than the other. Give some evidence to support Nynaeve being better. What can she do better than Semi can?

Can Semhirage heal stilling? But you are right, there are possibly 100s of wonders Semi discovered, and perfected during the the AoL that equal the healing of stilling, we just don't know. ON the other hand, if the person who is the best at the HEaling talent rarely heals anyone, and only does so in exacting horrible pain in equal measure, she still makes for a piss-poor healer. ONtologically great, practically not nearly so. Or do real world implications not matter either?

 

Didn't Samistu bring Dobraine back so close from the brink of death that people already said he was dead? - If that can be agreed upon, and everyone has already said that Nyn, Semuko, Semi, and Flinn all far outstripe Samistu then the back from the brink part of Semi and the AoL being above Nyn, Semuko, and Flinn does not qualify for me. Obviously Samistu is the best of the Aes Sedai healer (pre Nyn) so I'm not saying Semi isn't still phenominal, just that this is not a qualification for being better than the other three.

Who is saying that the others have outstripped Samitsu? What has been admitted is that Flinn did something she couldn't. Bear in mind she's an AS, and therefore has existed for a long time in a culture than frowns on innovation. If we discard innovation as a relevant metric of skill, and merely compare the application of their knowledge of Healing (not their ability to discover new knowlege), what reason do we have to believe that any of these has outstripped her, let alone all of them?

 

Well, Samitsu, before healing Dobraine asked the Ashaman Kardlin if he knew Damer's new type of healing: She, an expert in the field, felt it was not as stressful and energy draining on the patient and much better in that case She has yet to learn the new forms - if she even can to any great degree (although she was briefly in contact with Nynaeve in KOD, given the Yellows attitudes towards her and the lack of time its unlikely she has learned it since). Given that She is really good at traditional healing but cannot do any of the new things doesnt that knock her down a few pegs?

 

The big problem is that we lack, in many cases, direct comparisons of skill. Therefore we have little, if any, basis for a reliable conclusion about who is the best. Just personal preference. And sometimes personal preference is leading people to ignore the facts we do have, like us being told that Sumeko is better than Nynaeve.

 

I am curious, are you including me in the group that are ignoring the facts about relative healing talent? I cant tell because of the volume of responses. I really didn't ignore the fact, I and I thought I explained why, but No biggie either way.

 

Your last statement makes a lot of sense - we have so little comparative data, that its hard to make an educated guess let alone an honest assessment. But IMO Nynaeve's breadth of healing skills cannot be ignored. When I think about it, we know very little about Semirhage's skill except for the fact that she was the best in the world in a golden age of one power talents. Perhaps it makes sense that she is better than Nynaeve, Damer and the rest. Since she is dead, its kind of a moot point, but since she is in the pool maybe I should reassess. But Sumeko > Nynaeve?... I disagree and have given plently evidence for it - I suspect that the gap in HEaling talent isnt big enough to account for other lack of skills that Nynaeve possesses. That is not even taking Sumeko's track record (Accepted testing) and how it might affect stressful situations as well. Damer's skills are so different (and he has been so marginalized in the plot) that is too hard to compare.

 

Let me ask you this: If you wanted one healer at your side in a foxhole, through thick and thin, who do you want out of all of candidates, disregarding their relative offensive talents? I want one who can do everything, with Excellent healing (even if its not the best of the best), and if something comes up that supposedly cant be healed, I want the one with the passion and the track record to figure it out and heal the unthinkable as well. And preferably one that won't exact extra pain as payment. IF you want Sumeko - you get the best of the best at Healing, but with other gaps and a possibly track record of choking at crunch time (although age may have taken care of this problem), If you want Samitsu, you have the same missing holes.as SUmeko, plus a few more, but lots of practical skill.. Semirhage? The light have mercy on your soul. THe choice is clear to me Nynaeve, or Damer and I pick Nynaeve by an eyelash.

[elric]

i dont agrea Sumaco choke at crunch time, rem her fast reaction at the Abu Dar warehouse.

we dont know what her visions been and if it related to healing, she may have problem in killing /hurting for example.

 

and EVERY channeler who mentioed in the bookS NO MATTER live or dead or in between (if u pro ghost -> go for it :) ) is an option.

it best healer not best healer currently leaving :)

 

and btw what so wrong in having a beutifull /experienced /with GREAT knowledge on how the body work woman near u in a foxhole ? , so she is SLIGHTLY DISTURBE and have a bit of MURKY reputation and probably a MILD tendecy to play roughly ,but is this a reason to ban Semi from your foxhole ? :)))

[Damer Sedai]

i dont agrea Sumaco choke at crunch time, rem her fast reaction at the Abu Dar warehouse.

we dont know what her visions been and if it related to healing, she may have problem in killing /hurting for example.

I was thinking how a battlefield medic operating during the fighting requires a certain kind of courage and focus, and Sumeko responded quickly enough, but after the battle was done... however, thinking on it, I expect 300 years more experience has probably wrung that sort of problem out of her, and I was probably unfair to Sumeko. All we know is that she had a breakdown in her test for the shawl, and we now know how brutal those can be.

 

and EVERY channeler who mentioed in the bookS NO MATTER live or dead or in between (if u pro ghost -> go for it :) ) is an option.

it best healer not best healer currently leaving :)

 

If the poll is asking about the best healer EVER is Dr Gregory House, First Age... but I can't remember if he is in the Books

 

and btw what so wrong in having a beutifull /experienced /with GREAT knowledge on how the body work woman near u in a foxhole ? , so she is SLIGHTLY DISTURBE and have a bit of MURKY reputation and probably a MILD tendecy to play roughly ,but is this a reason to ban Semi from your foxhole ? :)))

You are a braver man/woman/mammal than I, Elric.

[Suttree]

SO you are saying removing compulsion, healing stilling, and healing madness, are all under the umbrella of the ubiquitous Healing talent?

 

She didn't heal madness. That and removing the taint are two seperate things. Per RJ the OP can not be used to heal insanity.

 

Also in curious. Can we call what she has done with compulsion a success given the state it leaves the subject in?

[Damer Sedai]

SO you are saying removing compulsion, healing stilling, and healing madness, are all under the umbrella of the ubiquitous Healing talent?

 

She didn't heal madness. That and removing the taint are two seperate things. Per RJ the OP can not be used to heal insanity.

 

Also in curious. Can we call what she has done with compulsion a success given the state it leaves the subject in?

 

Yes, yes.... I should have said healing taint-induced madness (Like I did every other time I mentioned that particular skill in this thread). Clarity is important.

 

Oh, I agree that with heavy compulsion the cure is as bad as the disease, but light compulsion... like what Verin does in ACOS, what Liandrin is capable of, perhaps even the

amount left on MOrgase, it still might be very useful. For Graendal's victims, its no great solution, really.

 

Mind control, whether by Ad'am or Compulsion, or other means, is pretty abhorrent... and I think removing it, no matter how problematic, is an impressive skill to have in a healers back pocket.

[fuzz1717]

SO you are saying removing compulsion, healing stilling, and healing madness, are all under the umbrella of the ubiquitous Healing talent?

 

She didn't heal madness. That and removing the taint are two seperate things. Per RJ the OP can not be used to heal insanity.

 

Also in curious. Can we call what she has done with compulsion a success given the state it leaves the subject in?

 

Is there an alternative really? I think she did the best anyone could ever possibly do. When Rand got his hand blasted off, Nyn acknowledged that there was no bringing it back. Once Kerb was compulsed so heavily by Graendal, he had hit the point of no return, and at that point, all Nyn could do was bring him back. Perhaps the shock of being normal was what killed Kerb, who knows. I'm no doctor (or Aes Sedai).

 

But yes... "success" has different definitions. It was a success for Rand, but I recall Nyn calling it a failure. Kerb probably thought it was a success during his last moments... but its hard to say if compulsion is prefereable to death.

[Entreri]

"In an advanced society as that of AoL stilling most likely wasn't a common occurrence, so I doubt Semi spent time studying it.

 

In any case, look at all of Semi's innovation when she describes her torture techniques. Her understanding of how the human body can be manipulated with OP is unmatched.

 

And have we seen current AS heal complex diseases like cancer or autoimmune disorders? Nyn said healing Rand's eyes would be too risky. I imagine these are areas AoLers surpassed current AS"

 

 

It is something that all AS would be concerned about and unquestionably they had studied it extensively. Ishamael himself has stated that it is "impossible".

 

I don't doubt that Semirhage was the best torturer. AoLers could have surpassed the current top healers in some areas and vice versa, Semirhage had not shown an area where she has surpassed Nyaneve in healing. And there is no mention of her big healing "discoveries" in AoL. Aginor for instance is credited with the likes of creating the gholams, Trollocs etc.

 

There is nothing in the books to indicate that Semirhage surpasses Nyaneve in healing.

 

Nyaneve did heal madness as well, before long probably death.

 

So by that logic all current AS and Wise Ones are superior in OP use to AoL AS because they've discovered things that were unknown/considered impossible then...

 

Sorry but that doesn't make sense.

 

The fact that Semi can remove your blood while keeping you alive speaks of her knowledge in the area and her brilliance. Healing and harming go hand in hand. Nyn is a brilliant young healer, but a few discoveries mean nothing when Semi has built a career on doing just that in an age with far higher standards.

 

And considering that AoL was an age of vast research in virtually every field, it's silly to assume there were no discoveries in healing. Semi's torture innovation practically nullifies it.

 

Also Aginor must have been a biologist and knowledgeable of genetics. Both are connected to medical sciences and make it even less likely AS weren't outdoing our modern physicians if their healing was so revered.

 

You are completely missing the point. Nynaeve has only been channeling just over a year. She has made so many discoveries that were thought to be impossible at the height of civilization. That shows her sheer talent and brilliance for the healing arts.

 

The greatest Aes Sedai of all time, Rand Sedai was amazed at Nyaneve when she healed madness! "You never cease to..."

 

Agnior for example was very impressed with Flinn: "he can do things you Aes Sedai never dreamed of" . Yet, Nynaeve discovered how to fix severing first and she is the one to discover on how to remove madness.

 

I wouldn't even put Semirhage 2nd, that goes to Flinn.

 

Nynaeve did remove Grandael's Compulsion, Grandael was very surprised by this. However, like Rand's hand there was nothing left on the child's mind, as Rand stated.

 

Bear in mind that most scientist still consider the likes of Newton as the greatest of all time, regardless of the primitive nature of society back then.

 

Nyaneve >> Semirhage

[driedraspberry]

"In an advanced society as that of AoL stilling most likely wasn't a common occurrence, so I doubt Semi spent time studying it.

 

In any case, look at all of Semi's innovation when she describes her torture techniques. Her understanding of how the human body can be manipulated with OP is unmatched.

 

And have we seen current AS heal complex diseases like cancer or autoimmune disorders? Nyn said healing Rand's eyes would be too risky. I imagine these are areas AoLers surpassed current AS"

 

 

It is something that all AS would be concerned about and unquestionably they had studied it extensively. Ishamael himself has stated that it is "impossible".

 

I don't doubt that Semirhage was the best torturer. AoLers could have surpassed the current top healers in some areas and vice versa, Semirhage had not shown an area where she has surpassed Nyaneve in healing. And there is no mention of her big healing "discoveries" in AoL. Aginor for instance is credited with the likes of creating the gholams, Trollocs etc.

 

There is nothing in the books to indicate that Semirhage surpasses Nyaneve in healing.

 

Nyaneve did heal madness as well, before long probably death.

 

So by that logic all current AS and Wise Ones are superior in OP use to AoL AS because they've discovered things that were unknown/considered impossible then...

 

Sorry but that doesn't make sense.

 

The fact that Semi can remove your blood while keeping you alive speaks of her knowledge in the area and her brilliance. Healing and harming go hand in hand. Nyn is a brilliant young healer, but a few discoveries mean nothing when Semi has built a career on doing just that in an age with far higher standards.

 

And considering that AoL was an age of vast research in virtually every field, it's silly to assume there were no discoveries in healing. Semi's torture innovation practically nullifies it.

 

Also Aginor must have been a biologist and knowledgeable of genetics. Both are connected to medical sciences and make it even less likely AS weren't outdoing our modern physicians if their healing was so revered.

 

You are completely missing the point. Nynaeve has only been channeling just over a year. She has made so many discoveries that were thought to be impossible at the height of civilization. That shows her sheer talent and brilliance for the healing arts.

 

The greatest Aes Sedai of all time, Rand Sedai was amazed at Nyaneve when she healed madness! "You never cease to..."

 

Agnior for example was very impressed with Flinn: "he can do things you Aes Sedai never dreamed of" . Yet, Nynaeve discovered how to fix severing first and she is the one to discover on how to remove madness.

 

I wouldn't even put Semirhage 2nd, that goes to Flinn.

 

Nynaeve did remove Grandael's Compulsion, Grandael was very surprised by this. However, like Rand's hand there was nothing left on the child's mind, as Rand stated.

 

Bear in mind that most scientist still consider the likes of Newton as the greatest of all time, regardless of the primitive nature of society back then.

 

Nyaneve >> Semirhage

 

You're ignoring the fact that Semirhage has discovered and is able to do many things with OP that are impossible to Nynaeve, things that made her famous amongst AS of AoL. (Your comparison to Newton is meaningless since Semir was famed for her accomplishments amongst her colleagues, for procedures she alone was capable of performing during AoL days. What you're suggesting implies someone performing medieval era surgery would be famed amongst current surgeons.)

 

Anyway refer back to Semirhage's knowledge of the human brain, locating pain/pleasure centers is far beyond Nyn's understanding. Sure she can remove the taint, an external thing, but actually understanding the function of the brain and how to stimulate it is not something Nyn is capable of. She couldn't even heal Rand's eye...a mere receptor. Semirhage can touch neural networks effectively and knowledgeably with the OP. Nynaeve is a half-trained child compared to Semirhage. A brilliant half-trained child with an open mind to what's possible, but still not very knowledgeable as of yet.

 

Dried u nominating Aginor as contender ?

i must say that the biologist part do hold some water.

 

Not necessarily as a healer in the regular sense, but the fact that he can create novel species speaks of how far advanced AoLers were in genetic technology. I would think Aginor would be a contender in healing using medicine and not OP though, depending on his research.

[Suttree]

Anyway refer back to Semirhage's knowledge of the human brain, locating pain/pleasure centers is far beyond Nyn's understanding. Sure she can remove the taint, an external thing, but actually understanding the function of the brain and how to stimulate it is not something Nyn is capable of. She couldn't even heal Rand's eye...a mere receptor. Semirhage can touch neural networks effectively and knowledgeably with the OP. Nynaeve is a half-trained child compared to Semirhage. A brilliant half-trained child with an open mind to what's possible, but still not very knowledgeable as of yet.

 

Pretty much...

 

Nyaneve >> Semirhage

 

Ahhh so this is what Wandering Channeler was referring to.

[Damer Sedai]

Anyway refer back to Semirhage's knowledge of the human brain, locating pain/pleasure centers is far beyond Nyn's understanding. Sure she can remove the taint, an external thing, but actually understanding the function of the brain and how to stimulate it is not something Nyn is capable of. She couldn't even heal Rand's eye...a mere receptor. Semirhage can touch neural networks effectively and knowledgeably with the OP. Nynaeve is a half-trained child compared to Semirhage. A brilliant half-trained child with an open mind to what's possible, but still not very knowledgeable as of yet.

 

Actually, while what you say on the surface may sound reasonable, you actually have it backwards. VIsion is one of the most complicated systems in the body, it is not merely " a receptor'. With a disturbance in vision, there are an incredible variety of possibilities of where the lesion occurs: the cornea, the lens (Cataracts), increased production of the vitreous leading to increased pressure, the retina (where the receptors are.... millions of them all with VERY specific pathways and purposes (Rods vs. Cones)), the optic nerve the optic chiasm, optic tract, and the visual cortex in the occipital lobe. Given that the damage was from the ball of fire, the damage probably occurred at the cornea or retina. As an aside, it is unlike that the ball of fire Semi threw would actually damage vision... compared the blinding light of Calandor and several other effects we have seen, a ball of fire is relatively small potatoes; More importantly, the light caused by even a roaring fire doesnt produce sufficient lumens for long enough time to damage the eyes.... but hey its magic... I try not to think that deep about it...cause then it all falls apart. IN any case, opthalmologic surgery of the retina at that level is incredibly delicate, fraught with danger of worsening the problem, and often not effective. Suprisingly enough, THAT part of the book is accurate.

 

COntrast that with stimulating the pain and pleasure centers of the brain: heck, folks in China have been doing that with acupuncture for 2000 years. That is manipulating the "primal brain" and while still complex, not nearly as sophisticated. Not to say what Semihrage is doing with the power inst very impressive, it really is, but this can be duplicated in an undergraduate lab in a rat in a stereoscopic array and a cranial drill. Fixing the above vision problem.... not so much.

 

The funny thing is I am coming around to the idea that Semi is almost certainly the best in skill, if not in practice, despite her lack of activity as a healer and or any direct evidence of the fact... the circumstancial evidence is so strong that its hard to refute. But I definitely would want her as MY healer.

 

Dried u nominating Aginor as contender ?

i must say that the biologist part do hold some water.

 

Not necessarily as a healer in the regular sense, but the fact that he can create novel species speaks of how far advanced AoLers were in genetic technology. I would think Aginor would be a contender in healing using medicine and not OP though, depending on his research.

 

I doubt it. Aginor's research is clearly focused on cellular biology and genetic engineering, which has a lot less to do with Non-One Power medicine than one might think. Except in science fiction... which is a whole nother genre. :)

[driedraspberry]

Anyway refer back to Semirhage's knowledge of the human brain, locating pain/pleasure centers is far beyond Nyn's understanding. Sure she can remove the taint, an external thing, but actually understanding the function of the brain and how to stimulate it is not something Nyn is capable of. She couldn't even heal Rand's eye...a mere receptor. Semirhage can touch neural networks effectively and knowledgeably with the OP. Nynaeve is a half-trained child compared to Semirhage. A brilliant half-trained child with an open mind to what's possible, but still not very knowledgeable as of yet.

 

Actually, while what you say on the surface may sound reasonable, you actually have it backwards. VIsion is one of the most complicated systems in the body, it is not merely " a receptor'. With a disturbance in vision, there are an incredible variety of possibilities of where the lesion occurs: the cornea, the lens (Cataracts), increased production of the vitreous leading to increased pressure, the retina (where the receptors are.... millions of them all with VERY specific pathways and purposes (Rods vs. Cones)), the optic nerve the optic chiasm, optic tract, and the visual cortex in the occipital lobe. Given that the damage was from the ball of fire, the damage probably occurred at the cornea or retina. As an aside, it is unlike that the ball of fire Semi threw would actually damage vision... compared the blinding light of Calandor and several other effects we have seen, a ball of fire is relatively small potatoes; More importantly, the light caused by even a roaring fire doesnt produce sufficient lumens for long enough time to damage the eyes.... but hey its magic... I try not to think that deep about it...cause then it all falls apart. IN any case, opthalmologic surgery of the retina at that level is incredibly delicate, fraught with danger of worsening the problem, and often not effective. Suprisingly enough, THAT part of the book is accurate.

 

COntrast that with stimulating the pain and pleasure centers of the brain: heck, folks in China have been doing that with acupuncture for 2000 years. That is manipulating the "primal brain" and while still complex, not nearly as sophisticated. Not to say what Semihrage is doing with the power inst very impressive, it really is, but this can be duplicated in an undergraduate lab in a rat in a stereoscopic array and a cranial drill. Fixing the above vision problem.... not so much.

 

The funny thing is I am coming around to the idea that Semi is almost certainly the best in skill, if not in practice, despite her lack of activity as a healer and or any direct evidence of the fact... the circumstancial evidence is so strong that its hard to refute. But I definitely would want her as MY healer.

 

Dried u nominating Aginor as contender ?

i must say that the biologist part do hold some water.

 

Not necessarily as a healer in the regular sense, but the fact that he can create novel species speaks of how far advanced AoLers were in genetic technology. I would think Aginor would be a contender in healing using medicine and not OP though, depending on his research.

 

I doubt it. Aginor's research is clearly focused on cellular biology and genetic engineering, which has a lot less to do with Non-One Power medicine than one might think. Except in science fiction... which is a whole nother genre. :)

 

But our capabilities differ from the innate abilities attached to healing with OP. We can't exactly stimulate cell regeneration (well, we can, but I assume you know that's it's not a cake walk), whereas it seems to be easy work with the OP. The problem is the knowledge of where and how. We have the knowledge and not the ability. It's basically the situation reversed. What I assume happened to Rand wasn't damage/severing of his optical nerve, but over-stimulation and death of a percentage of his cone cells. He could still see, but there was problems with clarity etc. OP can repair this kind of damage easily. Logically however, Nynaeve wouldn't have much knowledge of the eye (no clue as to what cells are most likely) and where she should prod with the OP...hence her not being able to repair the damage.

 

You're underestimating Semirhage's prodding of pleasure/pain centers. The fact that she knows how to stimulate the neurons so as to keep her subjects alive while simultaneously produce maximum pain shows that she has very high knowledge of what she's actually doing with the power. That's not something we can quite attribute to current AS. Nyn "knows" on an instinctive level, but cells/genes are concepts that are more than likely completely lost on her.

 

As to Aginor, if his research touches upon genetic engineering/cell biology he doesn't have to be a pharmaceutical manufacturer/medical researcher to contribute to medicine. He may not be directly involved, but if he was as genius as we are to believe, it would silly to assume every scientist in relevant fields wouldn't be well versed in his work and drive a lot of their own research using his findings.

[fionwe1987]

I haven't read the whole of this thread, so I might be repeating someone:

 

There seems to be a fundamental difference between how Nynaeve and Semirhage carry out Healing. Nynaeve delves first, as most Aes Sedai do. As we know, modern Delving was not an AoL Talent. Nynaeve, by statements she has made over several books, has refined the typical Aes Sedai Delving, first by adding all five powers to it, then by seeming to modulate it so she can focus on a particular part of the body (connection to the source, taint in the brain, center of the brain affected by a cut Warder Bond, etc.).

 

In contrast, Semirhage uses her great knowledge of the body's mechanics to directly deal with certain portions of it. She didn't need to delve Cabriana to know where the pain centers were located. For all we know, AoL Healers did diagnostics like modern doctors, then used the OP to deal with the actual Healing.

 

Which brings me to my point: Nynaeve may have a very rudimentary knowledge of human biology. She uses terms like "brain", which shows at least some anatomical knowledge, but clearly Semirhage far outstrips her there. But, while Nynaeve might not have the terminology to describe cells, genes, proteins and so on, but does she need to? Her lack of knowledge of cells certainly didn't stop her from completely regenerating skin, muscle, vasculature and nerves in Rand's hand. And doing so without leaving any scarring, something we know was rare even in the AoL. What's more, she somehow managed to learn enough from his other hand to even reproduce the dragon on his forearm, though she obviously didn't know what mechanism was used to set it in the first place.

 

Similarly, she had no issues repairing central nervous system damage in Naeff. And anyone who's worked in neuroscience knows that that's insanely difficult. She also has no issues purging out poison from Mellisair Chadmar, or handling specific infectious diseases, or even toxins with metaphysical oomph like whatever was killing Talmanes.

 

All these examples show that while Nynaeve's structured knowledge of biology at the cellular and molecular level may be abysmal, that doesn't stop her from operating at those levels. And she operated in those levels with absolute ease. I would say that it is not so much that she isn't aware of these things as that she doesn't possess the terminology to describe them. I doubt even genetic diseases, or cancer, are beyond her ability, for all that she doesn't really know their basis.

 

It might just be that Semirhage's greater knowledge is a moot point in the discussion of who's a better Healer.

[driedraspberry]

Similarly, she had no issues repairing central nervous system damage in Naeff. And anyone who's worked in neuroscience knows that that's insanely difficult. She also has no issues purging out poison from Mellisair Chadmar, or handling specific infectious diseases, or even toxins with metaphysical oomph like whatever was killing Talmanes.

 

All these examples show that while Nynaeve's structured knowledge of biology at the cellular and molecular level may be abysmal, that doesn't stop her from operating at those levels. And she operated in those levels with absolute ease. I would say that it is not so much that she isn't aware of these things as that she doesn't possess the terminology to describe them. I doubt even genetic diseases, or cancer, are beyond her ability, for all that she doesn't really know their basis.

 

It might just be that Semirhage's greater knowledge is a moot point in the discussion of who's a better Healer.

 

But in Naeff's case she didn't repair anything. If we are to to take RJ's word as fact about OP not being able to heal madness, then what she did was remove the taint, which is an external magical substance.

 

How I see it is that Nyn hits her limits when she has to fine tune her weaving to a very specific location. This is the case with Rand's eyes. And it would also be the case if she were to damage a neurodegenerative disease. There is no reason to believe Nyn can heal cancer, or autoimmune diseases. Anything that can't be healed by extracting an foreign substance and stimulating cell regeneration.

[elric]

welcome to the thread fionwe :)

 

i disgarea with u on 1 thing , we dont know that Semi or AoL healer didnt delved

about semi not delving to find Cabriana pain and pleasure centers, i'm under the impression that even if u drunk + drug semi and then wake her up in the middle of night and blindfold her , she be able to find the pain and pleasure center in an alien mind :)))