The top 10 fighters with the OP/TP

[Barid Bel Medar]

Apologies, I thought you were disputing the veracity of the statement.

[MasterAblar]

Given that Lanfear is noted in some places as being second to only Ishamael in power amongst the Forsaken I don't think we can make that "overwhelm" statement with any certainty.

 

I believe it's only stated as posibility rather than a certainty. It becomes rather unlikely, when you consider that Aginor, and probably Demandred as well, were very close behind LTT and Ishamael, and that there are several levels between the strongest woman and the strongest man. There wouldn't much point to the several levels if the difference between Lanfear and LTT is so minuscule that's even smaller than that of the difference between LTT and Aginor. It is possible of course, but I find it to be extremely unlikely, especially considering you have a similar difference in levels between Egwene and Nyneave for instance, and the gap in strength between is considerable.

 

That said I agree that Rahvin's statement should be taken with a healthy dose of skepticism considering who it's coming from. On the other hand, the fact that he also mentions Sammael would overwhelm them, and that they (Lanfear and Graendal) would link if they tried anything, gives it more credibility to me.

 

Sheer Power is not everything. Especially in opposite sex confrontations. Yes, men can handle more of OP, but you are completely ignoring the fact women are more deft with their weaves.

 

Power isn't everything but in a face to face battle, I think it probably gains importance.

 

We know Rand, Ishamael and Lanfear were top tiers of saidin and saidar. We know that means Rand and Ishamael could hold more saidin than Lanfear could hold saidar. But we also know Lanfear would have more dexterity than Rand or Ishamael. It's a case of bigger fireball vs quicker fireball. Men and women have their own advantages. They are different but equal. If Rand, Ishamael and Lanfear all had the same experience, knowledge and Talents, it would be an even match between all three of them. Any duel between two of the three would be a coin toss.

 

RJ said that in Rand and Lanfear's battle, if Rand had let LTT help he would have beaten Lanfear. You have to keep in mind that Rand had not reached his maximum strength yet. Now of course LTT was probably the best fighter anyway, and you always have to take into acount a person's individual ability in combat (Aginor for instance, was rather lame), but even so, Lanfear is no push over as you yourself state. Therefore I think Rand must have been at least a little stronger than Lanfear at this point (which considering he was only as strong as Asmodean in the previous book, should be a hint to where Lanfear ranks compared to the male Forsaken in terms of brute strength), otherwise Lanfear would have had pretty much every advantage over Rand. I rather doubt even LTT's amazing ability would make up the difference, so to me strength has to be a greater advantage in a face to face battle.

 

We don't know strongest male channelers are more clustered than female. Women can judge each other's current and potential strength by being near to each other. Men can only judge how much the other man is at that moment holding saidin. We only have Rand's perspective of how strong the other male channelers are. And that is only limited to a few and subject to Rand's opinion. Because of LTT's effect on him, he sees every channeler as a threat to himself and because of that when someone comes near him he is scared and thinks "he can almost as much saidin as I can". He is not that reliable a source and the only other one we have is BWB and Moiraine which do not say much.

 

Well, there are 8 male Forsaken compare to 5 female Forsaken, so it's probable they're more clustered together. That said it's rather difficult to rank them with any certainty. The only thing we know for sure is that Ishamael is the strongest and Aginor is second. Then things get complicated. While Demandred is probably about equal with Aginor (like Nyneave and Semirhage, or Egwene and Elayne), the rest we have no clear indication for, particularly Bel'al and Balthamel. Asmodean is probably the weakest since Rand equaled him as early as tSR. Sammael is probably pretty strong (the asha'man thought he was as strong as Rand in aCoS) and Rand thought Rahvin was about equal to him in tFoH. But it's all rather vague. Bel'al and Balthamel are probably somewhere between Asmodean and Sammael.

 

The women on the other hand are a bit easier. We know Lanfear is strongest, and that Semirhage is stronger than Moghedien (using Nyneave to compare them). Then you have Graendal claiming that it was very rare for a woman to be stronger than her probably placing her above Semirhage, and Mesaana at best being as strong as Semirhage.

 

Rahvin's confidence means absolutely nothing. RJ said don't believe in what the Forsaken think when comparing themselves to others. Each one thinks he/she is better than anyone else, so they have a tendency to see themselves more than they are and others less.

 

True, but he also mentions Sammael could overwhelm them. That can't be passed off as him trying to see himself as better than the rest. Also Rahvin being able to overwhelm Lanfear fits with Rand being able to do the same at the end of the book. And Rand though he and Rahvin might be the same strength...

 

Don't underestimate Lanfear/Cyndane. That's a deadly mistake :P

 

Words to live by.

 

I'm not sure why Ishy keeps getting put so close to the top (ahead of other forsaken) - by nature he's a philosopher, not a fighter, and Rand beat him twice while mostly untrained. His power puts him near the top, and an assumption of experience compared to most none AoL AS, but he doesn't seem #2 to me, 3 or 4 maybe.

 

His position as Nae'Blis (sp?) may give him some advantage against other Forsaken, but I'm not convinced - openly they may support him, but privately they're plotting his downfall. If it came to a 1 on 1, they wouldn't give up because of it.

 

Well, LTT was only a politician, and Lanfear... Did she even have a job? I don't think we should judge based on what they were doing before the War of Power but rather during. Mesaana was still a teacher, and Aginor a scientist. But Demandred (politician), Bel'al (lawyer), and Sammael (athlete), all became military commanders. Ishamael was the supreme commander even if he never commanded the armies personally. Then again Lanfear never commanded armies, and she was not one to piss off, nor Graendal or Semirhage, neither of whom commanded armies either. So even what they were doing during the War of Power may not be indicative of the ability in battle.

 

As for Ishamael and Rand's fights, they were all sort of special. The first time was really just Rand suddenly lashing out with the power, the second was a fight with sword and staff (still don't understand how that happened), and in the third Rand had sort of an unfair advantage with Callandor. He probably had LTT helping too though he wouldn't have been aware of it. There's a reason why the Forsaken have pretty much given up trying to take on Rand face to face.

 

No, but as someone said earlier, stronger fireball over faster fireball. As an in book example there's a 'fight' between Nyn and Talaan (WF apprentice?) where T(?) is shielding Nyn, she manages it because her weaves are more dextrous, not because they're stronger - she can maneauver around Nyns defences before Nyn has time to react.

 

So in terms of who are the better fighters, it's not determined by strength alone, although strength is an important advantage. Dexterity, demonstrably, is important, as is knowledge, experience and luck.

 

Not sure dexterity would equal greater speed. Just greater agility with their weaves I would say. The usefullness of that depends on the battle I imagine. In a face to face battle, where you're just trying to overwhelm the other, I think strength would be an advantage.

 

I have never said greater dexterity means better fighter. I'm saying it makes up for the fact they have lesser strength. Yes, men are generally better fighters. But there are exceptions to that, a lot of them.

 

My objection is to mistake that the amount of OP the channeler holds is everything. Egwene is strong in Earth. Imagine a male channeler with greater strength than Egwene, but he is nowhere near as strong as Earth as Egwene. Who would do a more effective weave the erupt the earth, Egwene or our imagined chaneller?

 

Indeed, channeller should be taken individually, even if a man is probably stronger in Earth and Fire, and a woman in Wind and Water. I wonder if dexterity works the same as strength. That is, since a woman can be stronger than a man, can a man have greater dexterity than a woman?

 

i dont think Nyn reached her full potential , rem how she keep growing in the books (the dwelling improvment for example).

 

Nyneave is equal in strength to Semirhage.

 

This is what I am saying. Assume every factor that affects a duel is the same. We have a duel between top-tier male channeler and top-tier female channeler. Male has the advantage of more OP, female has better dexterity. I am saying they would stand equal chances of being the victor in an honest, one-on-one duel.

 

And yet Rand could have defeated Lanfear had he let LTT help him in tFoH. Rand was definitely not at his maximum strength here, and Lanfear would have had the same knowledge and experience as LTT. LTT may be the better fighter, but Lanfear would have the advantage everywhere else. Unless Rand was already a little stronger than she was, in which case the combination of his greater strength and LTT's superior fighting ability would have been enought to surpass Lanfear. I think in a face to face battle, strength is going to be more of an advantage than dexterity. In a different tipe of battle, dexterity might give a greater advantage.

 

I don't think they're quite equal in every respect.

 

Indeed. It's overall that they're equal. Women can make longer bridges of air for instance. They travel differently, they heal fatigue differently (the asha'man's weave is more extreme. It gave a big energy boost, but leaves you exhausted later on), and their weaves are just different in general. And what about cuendillar? Earth and Fire are the most important when making. Does that mean men would be better at it? Would women be better at manipulating the weather for instance? While there are undoubtebly exceptions, I imagine men are generally better at some things, and women at others, all of it balancing out in the end of course.

[Whizbang]

Re: Rand's battle with Lanfear

 

Also, don't forget Lanfear had that bracelet Angreal. Rand still would have been able to defeat her if he let LTT take control. That is a huge indicator of the difference in strengths. Unless we are reading this wrong and the advantage LTT/Rand has is not in strength, but in knowledge. He knew Lanfear pretty damn well, better than anyone else, I would guess. If he were LTT, he could distract her, play her weaknesses, avoid her strengths. He would not need full strength to confuse her. Also, although she was hoping LTT would take control, the transition would still startle her. Going from barely being able to cut her shielding weaves to suddenly cranking out advanced weaves from the AoL would require a huge and instantaneous shift in tactics on Lanfear's part.

 

So, it could be read two ways. 1: Rand's strength could make all the difference if he had at least marginal training/experience, even over Lanfear with an Angreal. or 2: Rand's greater dexterity and experience as LTT would overcome Lanfear, despite her greater strength when using the Angreal.

[MasterAblar]

Re: Rand's battle with Lanfear

 

Also, don't forget Lanfear had that bracelet Angreal. Rand still would have been able to defeat her if he let LTT take control. That is a huge indicator of the difference in strengths. Unless we are reading this wrong and the advantage LTT/Rand has is not in strength, but in knowledge. He knew Lanfear pretty damn well, better than anyone else, I would guess. If he were LTT, he could distract her, play her weaknesses, avoid her strengths. He would not need full strength to confuse her. Also, although she was hoping LTT would take control, the transition would still startle her. Going from barely being able to cut her shielding weaves to suddenly cranking out advanced weaves from the AoL would require a huge and instantaneous shift in tactics on Lanfear's part.

 

So, it could be read two ways. 1: Rand's strength could make all the difference if he had at least marginal training/experience, even over Lanfear with an Angreal. or 2: Rand's greater dexterity and experience as LTT would overcome Lanfear, despite her greater strength when using the Angreal.

 

Rand had an angreal as well. I think it's a combination of his strength and LTT's help that would allow him to win. I don't think it's a coincidence that earlier in the book Rahvin asked her if he (Rand) could overwhelm her face to face.

[Whizbang]

Oh yeah. Thanks. I had forgotten that. Thanks for the reminder.

 

That just gives greater strength to the argument that dexterity and experience overcomes strength.

[MasterAblar]

Oh yeah. Thanks. I had forgotten that. Thanks for the reminder.

 

That just gives greater strength to the argument that dexterity and experience overcomes strength.

 

Rand doesn't have either. Lanfear probably had greater dexterity than LTT, and they had the same experience and knowledge. LTT was probably a better fighter, but even so Rand was nowhere near his maximum strength at this point. I don't think LTT's knowledge alone would have allow him to overcome his disadvantage. Which is why I think Rand was a little stronger than Lanfear at this point, so that his superior strength would tip the balance in his favor.

[Entreri]

As much as I like Alivia, no way she will be able to take out Taim, who would not only be stronger than her but has defense capabilities.

 

I would say that possibly aside from Asmodean, all the male Chosen are clustered closely together in OP strength. Logain came very close to Rand's strength and presumably, Taim's is right there with Logain.

 

Interestingly, all the strongest males are clustered together in OP strength (Rand, Ishamael, Agnior, Demandred...Logain, Taim etc), while the top females, you have what? Lanfear and Alivia, after which there is a considerably drop. The strength of someone like Rahvin was commented on both by Grandael and Moghdien and even Lanfear indirectly.

 

Rahvin was very confident that he or Sammael would overwhelm Lanfear in a face-to-face confrontation. Male strength has several levels above the female. I don't see any of the strongest males (at least among the Chosen) losing to Lanfear in a face-to-face confrontation (balefire excluded).

 

We know that Alivia would overwhelm Nynaeve, whatever she did, Alivia was far too strong for Nynaeve. Likely any of the strongest males (Chosen) would overwhelm any of the women, including Lanfear.

 

In turn, Lanfear would overwhelm Semirhage, Messana and Moghdien.

Sheer Power is not everything. Especially in opposite sex confrontations. Yes, men can handle more of OP, but you are completely ignoring the fact women are more deft with their weaves.

 

We know Rand, Ishamael and Lanfear were top tiers of saidin and saidar. We know that means Rand and Ishamael could hold more saidin than Lanfear could hold saidar. But we also know Lanfear would have more dexterity than Rand or Ishamael. It's a case of bigger fireball vs quicker fireball. Men and women have their own advantages. They are different but equal. If Rand, Ishamael and Lanfear all had the same experience, knowledge and Talents, it would be an even match between all three of them. Any duel between two of the three would be a coin toss.

 

Alivia and Taim both are one step below respectively Lanfear and Rand. That means Taim has the advantage of more OP while Alivia has more dexterity. These advantages negate each other. Then you have to look at the other factors:

Experience: Alivia by far. She is over 400 years old and 400 of those years are spent being used as a weapon or being trained as a weapon. We don't exactly know how old Taim is because of the slowing but he is nowhere near Alivia.

Skill: Both are fighters. They are equal in this.

Knowledge: Alivia claims the Asha'man are good weapons but she is better. In return she has no idea how to defend herself, while Taim does. Taim has a big advantage in defense while Alivia has a small one in offense. That puts Taim ahead but not by that much.

 

Overall, one-on-one Alivia has the advantage.

 

We don't know strongest male channelers are more clustered than female. Women can judge each other's current and potential strength by being near to each other. Men can only judge how much the other man is at that moment holding saidin. We only have Rand's perspective of how strong the other male channelers are. And that is only limited to a few and subject to Rand's opinion. Because of LTT's effect on him, he sees every channeler as a threat to himself and because of that when someone comes near him he is scared and thinks "he can almost as much saidin as I can". He is not that reliable a source and the only other one we have is BWB and Moiraine which do not say much.

 

Rahvin's confidence means absolutely nothing. RJ said don't believe in what the Forsaken think when comparing themselves to others. Each one thinks he/she is better than anyone else, so they have a tendency to see themselves more than they are and others less.

 

You probably read saidar strength comparison in the 13th Depository but read it again. And this time remember sheer Power is only one of the factors that affect how someone would do in a duel. Cyndane and Alivia are equal in OP, but Alivia had a paralis-net which included an angreal and pretty cool ter'angreal. Cyndane managed to beat Alivia and escape unscathed.

 

 

Don't underestimate Lanfear/Cyndane. That's a deadly mistake :P

 

Greater dexterity would not necessarily mean a faster fireball. A fireball is a simple weave. It would mean the ability to conjure more complex weaves faster. In a face-to-face confrontation, one is unlikely to have time to conjure complex weaves...the contest would be fast and brutal.

 

Rand's children for instance can weave fast as thought, regardless of sex. The female children could still conceivably be able to weave more complex weaves do to their greater dexterity.

 

If would never be an even match between Ishamael, Lanfear and Rand even given your analogy. Rand and Ishamael would overwhelm her in a face-to-face confrontation.

 

The likes of Rahvin and Sammael would overwhelm Lanfear...and this cannot be taken as an ego driven trip, given that he mentions Sammael. Rahvin was shocked however that an untrained sheepherder could "overwhelm" Lanfear...Lanfear said LTT "was strong as any".

 

Taim is unquestionably > Alivia. Bear in mind that Asha'man CAPTURED Aliva. UNLINKED Asha'man. Taim is a CHOSEN and one of the most powerful channelers.

 

OP strenght of males: Logain came "very close" to Rand. Aginor, came "very close" to Rand. Ishamael was EQUAL to LTT. From what we have see so far, the strongest males are indeed clustered together.

 

Lanfear is much stronger than Grandael (since Cydane is stronger). Alivia is very much stronger than Nyaneve ("considerably stronger", Nyaneve was SO amazed at her strength).

 

 

Imagine Lanfear's mind set when confronting Alivia: NOTHING was going to stop her from taking out Rand, who had betrayed her with another woman. It took her "death" in book 5 for her to let go of Rand.

 

Without any question, Alivia inflicted damage on her and made her retreat. Like I said, Alivia has a massive gap, essentially no defense (thus she would lose to Taim), Lanfear no doubt was able to quickly adjust around the foxhead (indirect weave attacks).

 

Bear in mind that, Asha'man defeated Alivia. Unlinked Asha'man.

[MasterAblar]

Bear in mind that, Asha'man defeated Alivia. Unlinked Asha'man.

 

Well, in Alivia's defense that wouldn't have been a one on one battle. She was not only up against numerous Asha'man, but there is also the chaos of battle to consider, and finally there's the fact that she was a damane then, and was vulnerable through the suldam.

[Suttree]

Without any question, Alivia inflicted damage on her and made her retreat. Like I said, Alivia has a massive gap, essentially no defense (thus she would lose to Taim), Lanfear no doubt was able to quickly adjust around the foxhead (indirect weave attacks).

 

Bear in mind that, Asha'man defeated Alivia. Unlinked Asha'man.

 

First off once again it is hard to rank where Lanfeat pre-Finns stood. The BWB speculates she was second only to Ishy, even if that isn't proof we have no conclusive proof that she sits below most of the other males either.

 

In addition not only was Alivia in their fight more powerful than Lanfear(let alone Cyndane) she also had a terangreal to disrupt flows which Lanfear had never heard of. All in all it does very little to help your point that brute strength easily overwhelms a dexterous fighter. In fact it shows the exact opposite.

[Damer Sedai]

Alivia is an interesting case. She is very powerful. She has centuries more battle channeling experience that most others, but it comes with several caveats.

 

1. She wasn't the one making decisions in combat pre WH, her sul'dam was, in each and every battle she had participated aside from the cleansing. I expect that would have a major effect that would have on ones strategy and keeping on ones toes in the fog of war. She did well enough against Cyndane, but she had several huge advantages (immune to direct weaves, detecting channeling, angreal) and still came out worse for wear.

2. I recall that in APOD that battles in Sanchean in regions in rebellion do occur, but the implication is that they are rare (General Miraj, I think?). My guess is that Alivia doesn't have nearly as much practical experience in fighting other channelers compared to her ability as heavy artillery, to wreak massive damage on non-channelers.

3. Alivia was defeated by Asha'man, true, but there are other factors involved in the Illian campaign where she was taken, She was leashed to a sul'dam, who may not have been particularly good at either tactics or controlling damane, inhibiting her. In addition, the suldam is a potential weakness... she could be killed, or the ad'am channeled open, and a freed/unpaired Alivia is effectively neutralized.

[Knivy]

Damane arent great at actually fighting. They are shock troops, relying on common soldiers to protect them. Blowing things up isn't a very effective way to win a battle 1v1. Id say Alivia has almost no experience pre-freeing of this sort of combat.

[Entreri]

Without any question, Alivia inflicted damage on her and made her retreat. Like I said, Alivia has a massive gap, essentially no defense (thus she would lose to Taim), Lanfear no doubt was able to quickly adjust around the foxhead (indirect weave attacks).

 

Bear in mind that, Asha'man defeated Alivia. Unlinked Asha'man.

 

First off once again it is hard to rank where Lanfeat pre-Finns stood. The BWB speculates she was second only to Ishy, even if that isn't proof we have no conclusive proof that she sits below most of the other males either.

 

In addition not only was Alivia in their fight more powerful than Lanfear(let alone Cyndane) she also had a terangreal to disrupt flows which Lanfear had never heard of. All in all it does very little to help your point that brute strength easily overwhelms a dexterous fighter. In fact it shows the exact opposite.

 

Are you talking about the "The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time"?

 

That was written by the perspective of a particular scholar and not meaninful. I believe Moraine also spouts off that men and women are equal and Lanfear is the 2nd most powerful.

 

All of that holds far far less weight than the opinion of the Chosen. Why? Bear in mind that in AoL, everyone knew the maximum strength level of men and women and their capabilities (taking into account such factors as dexterity). Further the fact that Ravhin included Sammael in his discussion and he stated this as a fact in his PoV.

 

So there is no question that the top male Chosen such as Rahvin, Sammael etc would overwhelm Lanfear in a face-to-face confrontation. The men are simply just too strong. To balance things out, the women can link and dexterity has some impact no doubt.

 

Alivia was captured by the Asha'man! Asha'man are essentially brute strength. Alivia lacks defensive weaves.

 

Even with all her accessories, it is not suprising that she took a pounding. But at the end of the day, Lanfear retreated, and it must have take a lot to make Lanfear run given her crazy, irrational, obesssion with LTT. This is primarily due to Lanfear's superior SKILLS/KNOWLEDGE in the OP. For all we know, Alivia could have the dexterity advantage over Lanfear.

 

Rahvin was shocked that a sheepherder like Rand could overwhelm Lanfear. Lanfear stated that LTT was "as strong as any". Lanfear clearly knows the impact that strength has on a fight.

 

If I was to rank them:

 

1/ Skills/knowledge of the OP

2/ Strength in the OP

3/ Luck

 

A distant fourth in face-to-face confrontation would be dexterity. The only example I can think of is Semirhage removing honey from the tea...

 

 

I believe that Grandael said that Cyndane was "stronger" than her and Messana said she is "weaker" than Lanfear. Lanfear's strenght and capabilities were well known by the other Chosen.

[Entreri]

Bear in mind that, Asha'man defeated Alivia. Unlinked Asha'man.

 

Well, in Alivia's defense that wouldn't have been a one on one battle. She was not only up against numerous Asha'man, but there is also the chaos of battle to consider, and finally there's the fact that she was a damane then, and was vulnerable through the suldam.

 

There were many damane, we know that 100's died. So we really don't know how many Alivia faced off against. Bear in mind that Alivia is probably as strong as Lanfear (pre-Finn).

Alivia is so strong that Nyaneve thinks maybe some of the Chosen could be stronger and that she would overwhelm Nyaneve, whatever she did.

 

I have no doubt that top male Chosen would overwhelm Lanfear. Of course Lanfear can link with Grandael (as Rahvin stated) or use balefire, the great equalizer.

[fuzz1717]

So we really don't know how many Alivia faced off against. Bear in mind that Alivia is probably as strong as Lanfear (pre-Finn).

 

Hate to be that guy, but Alivia is one step weaker than Lanfear according to this:

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

 

One way or another, I agree with you that Moridin/Ishy could and still can overcome Lanfear/Cyndane or however you spell it. It was well recognized among the Forsaken that while Lanfear claimed she was as strong as Ishy, Ishy in reality was the true leader.

[XXX]

So we really don't know how many Alivia faced off against. Bear in mind that Alivia is probably as strong as Lanfear (pre-Finn).

 

Hate to be that guy, but Alivia is one step weaker than Lanfear according to this:

http://13depository....th-ranking.html

 

One way or another, I agree with you that Moridin/Ishy could and still can overcome Lanfear/Cyndane or however you spell it. It was well recognized among the Forsaken that while Lanfear claimed she was as strong as Ishy, Ishy in reality was the true leader.

 

I don;t think the Forsaken ever claimed the Lanfear was the equal of the top males. And that is actually very doubful she was.As has been said here there are a no of levels between the strongest man and the strongest female.A lot of the male forsaken seem really close to the strongest man's strength.Logically this means they are most likely stronger than Lanfear.

 

Lanfear being the second strongest among forsaken seems to be a third age rumor similar to Moraine's claim of Men and Women being equal in OP strength.

[BFG]

I suspect they stem from the same source. With no proof to the contrary they assume that men and women have similar levels of power - therefore as Lanfear is the strongest female Forsaken they assumed that that meant she was level with Ishmael on power.

[James Andrew Powell]

1. Rand- It is hinted that Rand is the most powerful male Channler in existence. As well as having at least an instinctual knowledge of the AoL. Took out four of the Forsaken prior to gaining a concious knowledge of AoL weaiving. Add to that access to the Choden Kal, Callandor and the Dark Ones True Source. Commanding lead.

 

2. Moridin- Ishameal Resurrected. Possesing all of the knowledge and power from his previous life. Unlimited access to the True Source. A stockpile of Angreal, Sa'angreal and Ter'angreal. A clear number 2

 

3. Demandred- Vast power and experience from the AoL. From the books it seems he is one of Lews Therins most hated nemesis'. And shows an uncanny ability to stay alive and unbound. Some would say the showdown during the cleansing showed him not to be a fighter. But there is no such thing as a fair fight, and I don't forsee this guy fighting fair.

 

4. Cyndane- Leanfear or not. This mysterious girl has great power. She is an unknown quantity.

 

5. Taim- M'hael of the Asha'man. Possesing strength in the one power possibly rivaling one of the forsaken (or is he one of the forsaken??? dum dum dummmmm) He is another that won't fight fair and will come at an enemy from where least expected. Not to mention having a large number of Asha'man under his control and at his beck and call.

 

6. Logain- One of the last false Dragons. Severed from the Source then healed. A very powerful channeler. Surpassed only by the Dragon Reborn and what male forsaken remain alive.

 

7. Alivia- 400 year old freed damane. Trained during all of that time to be a living weapon. Another unknown quantity but one can assume from statements in the books that she is more powerful the Cyndane, equal to Lanfear in raw, brute power. But she is naive and inexperienced in anything but attack.

 

8. Egwene- Young Amyrlin. A short time as a Damane forced her to great strength, lessens from Moghieden tought her to be a deadly channler. And a supreme force of will drives her to number 8 on the list.

 

9. Nynaeve- Possessing great strength in the Power and fiery temper. Tutored by Moghieden in some ancient weives, possesing an angreal and several ter'angreal. What she lacks in some areas she makes up for in being the strongest Aes Sedai in over 1000 years.

 

10. Moraine- The ultimate wild card. Moraine has 3 Forsaken notches on her belt. As well as a drive and determination to see things through to the end. While she lost much power during her imprisonment. An angreal, one that is almost a Sa'angreal. boosts her power back up far past where she was prior.

 

:: there are others that could be counted on the list, Graendal, With a angreal, extreame power and knowledge of the AoL. Cadsuane with her Ter'angreal and no fear attitude, Shader Haran with the powers of a Myddraal's abilities and access to the True Source.

I feel that the list represents the Best Fighters with the power. Not the strongest per say, but the ones that would win a fight. No matter how it was one. "Its not the size of the sword but how well you swing it.

[Entreri]

So we really don't know how many Alivia faced off against. Bear in mind that Alivia is probably as strong as Lanfear (pre-Finn).

 

Hate to be that guy, but Alivia is one step weaker than Lanfear according to this:

http://13depository....th-ranking.html

 

One way or another, I agree with you that Moridin/Ishy could and still can overcome Lanfear/Cyndane or however you spell it. It was well recognized among the Forsaken that while Lanfear claimed she was as strong as Ishy, Ishy in reality was the true leader.

 

None of the Chosen ever claimed Lanfear was the 2nd strongest.

 

Rahvin stated that either of them (Sammael as well) would overwhelm Lanfear. Bear in mind that is the same exact word Nynaeve used when facing Alivia...that Alivia would "overwhelm" her. Alivia was "considerably stronger" than Nynaeve.

 

Asmodean points out that men and women are different in strength, similar to arm strength. Men's upper body strength is far superior to that of women.

 

Moggy points out that men are stronger to Nyaneve.

 

When Rahvin was shocked that Rand would overwhelm Lanfear (since Rand was at best half-trained), Lanfear stated LTT was as strong as any. Lanfear is well aware of the strength superority of men.

 

As for Alivia's strength:

We do not know if Alivia is as strong Lanfear or if she is weaker.

 

What we know about Alivia: "considerably stronger" than Nyaneve and whatever Nyaneve did, Aliva would "overwhelm" her. Nynaeve was so amazed at her strength that she thought nobody but possibly some of the Chosen could be stronger. Bear in mind that she has been around the strongest channelers in WoT.

 

Nyaneve is >= Semirhage and is stronger than Messana and Moghdien.

 

In order to overwhelm someone like Nynaeve, one has to be very much stronger in the OP.

 

Given this, I would speculate that Alivia is as strong or almost as strong as Lanfear.

[James Andrew Powell]

It was in the books that typically Men were stronger in the power, but that was balanced by womens ability to form circles of 13. The average from what I gather is that typically men are stronger but there are exceptions to every rule. I would say that with Rand and the Forsaken, there are no females who could equal them in power. Om TFoH, Lanfear, (likely the most powerful of the female channlers in the series) Was just able to overpower Rand with the help of an angreal that in the ToM was stated to be close to a Sa'angreal in its ability to amplify the source. With that, I do not think that any of the females in the series could take out the males in a straight up fight. By the stage of the final book, experience has become a moot point. Its not a who knows more fight anymore, it a who can bring the most resources to the table fight now.

[Entreri]

It was in the books that typically Men were stronger in the power, but that was balanced by womens ability to form circles of 13. The average from what I gather is that typically men are stronger but there are exceptions to every rule. I would say that with Rand and the Forsaken, there are no females who could equal them in power. Om TFoH, Lanfear, (likely the most powerful of the female channlers in the series) Was just able to overpower Rand with the help of an angreal that in the ToM was stated to be close to a Sa'angreal in its ability to amplify the source. With that, I do not think that any of the females in the series could take out the males in a straight up fight. By the stage of the final book, experience has become a moot point. Its not a who knows more fight anymore, it a who can bring the most resources to the table fight now.

 

Rand also had an angreal, but at best it is an average one. Of course, Rand was nowhere near to gaining his full potential OP strength at that point. And if Rand had let LTT take over, he would have still won.

[morkhon]

I'm surprised so many people are ranking Demandred highly. Damer Flinn beat him back pretty severely at the cleansing in WH. Demandred even thinks to himself that he was a great general, but generals don't fight alongside their troops..or something like that. What I take from that is he might be a great strategic leader...but not a frontline fighter.

[fuzz1717]

I'm surprised so many people are ranking Demandred highly. Damer Flinn beat him back pretty severely at the cleansing in WH. Demandred even thinks to himself that he was a great general, but generals don't fight alongside their troops..or something like that. What I take from that is he might be a great strategic leader...but not a frontline fighter.

 

Damer Flinn was also in a circle with two others. But yes, i agree that I think Demandred is more brain than brawn. He's smart enough to still be alive, and maybe he's not Nae'blis, but he certainly has influence. On the front lines, though, I think he's only an above-average forsaken. I believe Aginor was stronger than him in terms of sheer amount of Saidin, but Aginor wasn't really a fighter

[Kahsm]

Alivia and Taim both are one step below respectively Lanfear and Rand. That means Taim has the advantage of more OP while Alivia has more dexterity. These advantages negate each other. Then you have to look at the other factors:

Experience: Alivia by far. She is over 400 years old and 400 of those years are spent being used as a weapon or being trained as a weapon. We don't exactly know how old Taim is because of the slowing but he is nowhere near Alivia.

Skill: Both are fighters. They are equal in this.

Knowledge: Alivia claims the Asha'man are good weapons but she is better. In return she has no idea how to defend herself, while Taim does. Taim has a big advantage in defense while Alivia has a small one in offense. That puts Taim ahead but not by that much.

 

Overall, one-on-one Alivia has the advantage.

 

Uhh, no freaking way. Training to blow up helpless OP fodder is nothing compared to a guy trained to actually fight another OP user. Normally I'd give the advantage to women over men in an OP v OP duel, but not in this case. Alivia has been trained to use brute strength just to make things to boom. We know from Mogh v. Nynaeve that those "skills" can be made completely useless in OP v OP.

 

Actually a lot of this discussion really doesn't look at HOW one OP user would fight another OP user. Sure, strength is great if you want to make a giant fireball or a large balefire beam. But any channeler who's just strong enough to slice your flows, fast enough to do it before you can finish the weave, and agile enough to use enough flows at once you can't get anything going, is going to win. And who's the most agile channeler we've seen to date? Egwene. Not going to claim she's actually good enough to do that yet, but she's got the potential. She lacks real OP v. OP experience.

[elric]

cant c Egy win against the like of Nyn or Ali.

she just not strong enough to slice their flows.

[Suttree]

Actually a lot of this discussion really doesn't look at HOW one OP user would fight another OP user. Sure, strength is great if you want to make a giant fireball or a large balefire beam. But any channeler who's just strong enough to slice your flows, fast enough to do it before you can finish the weave, and agile enough to use enough flows at once you can't get anything going, is going to win.

 

Spot on, agility is being massively underestimated in this discussion. Per RJ greater agility for the females makes up for the strength difference between men and women.