Snakes.Foxes.Mat.Moiraine.Rand - we SHOULD have *18* pieces of info here...DO WE??

[Stevros]

see that's one of the problems I have with the whole series. If FInnland really is another place entirely, why is the One Power reachable there?

 

And if it really was that easy to just kill Finns to be let free, any channeler could do it. Just weave a shield around yourself to prevent physical trauma and go to town on them until enough die that they say we give up. Any Aes Sedai or Asha'man could rip them apart, it wouldn't require being an almighty forsaken with the true power to do that.

 

Why shouldn't the One Power be reachable there, THE Wheel of Time is driven by the One Power and it pervades into everything (except the Stedding) What I doubt is its effectiveness, despite Rand using it to make his sword of fire I think they were wary of it only because it was a source of light. I think the True Power may be much more effective there as they probably have large defences against channelers as proven by the fact that they took Lanfear and Moraine hostage.

[Mulk]

ok, make a giant wave of fire. Beyond the ability of some channelers, but not beyond the ability of many others. Wall to wall fire would put a damper on the Finn's desire to cause harm.

 

And as to why not, we don't know that the Creator made Finnland, or that the same Wheel that runs it runs the Finn world plus the place that Ogier came from, only that it is parallel to Randland. We have no idea what all that entails. If it does work, fine. I can live with that. But then the Finns should still be appalling vulnerable to anyone who can weave fire.

[Stevros]

ok, make a giant wave of fire. Beyond the ability of some channelers, but not beyond the ability of many others. Wall to wall fire would put a damper on the Finn's desire to cause harm.

 

And as to why not, we don't know that the Creator made Finnland, or that the same Wheel that runs it runs the Finn world plus the place that Ogier came from, only that it is parallel to Randland. We have no idea what all that entails. If it does work, fine. I can live with that. But then the Finns should still be appalling vulnerable to anyone who can weave fire.

 

Fire to blind

Fire doesn't actually hurt them it only blinds them, and I think the are capable of sensing roughly where a person is by smell etc.

 

 

Also on a unrelated topic I think it would be quite nice if now Mat has escaped ToG that part of the unravelling of the pattern now means that it is possible to win at the game of snakes and foxes.

[Neophyte]

And as to why not, we don't know that the Creator made Finnland, or that the same Wheel that runs it runs the Finn world plus the place that Ogier came from, only that it is parallel to Randland.

 

I'm about 99.99% sure that RJ confirmed that the True Source turns the Wheel in all of the parallel and perpendicular worlds as well as Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

 

ok, make a giant wave of fire. Beyond the ability of some channelers, but not beyond the ability of many others. Wall to wall fire would put a damper on the Finn's desire to cause harm.

 

In all directions at once? The whole time you're there? I think that would sort of defeat the purpose of making the trip in the first place, as well as exhausting any normal channeler in minutes.

[Neophyte]

 

Fire to blind

Fire doesn't actually hurt them it only blinds them, and I think the are capable of sensing roughly where a person is by smell etc.

 

 

I'm pretty sure that setting them on fire would hurt them, and is not what the rhyme is talking about.

[Mulk]

a shield made of fire then. And you can tie off the weave, it's not like you have to channel continously. /shrug

 

The Finns should be remarkably easy for any Aes Sedai or Asha'man to deal with unless they have a trick, but if they have that trick, they ought to be able to use it on anyone, not just non-Shadow people. Unless, of course, there is an agreement with the Shadow that the Light is unaware of. I find that far more compelling and interesting than Moridin is a badass that no one can mess with ever - that's a rather poor caricature of who the guy is as he doesn't win by blunt-force trauma but by strategy. Moiraine was apparently in some kind of suspension and unable to do anything, and if they can do that to her they can do it to anyone. Which leads inexorably to the question of why they do not. The only explanation that might make sense is a third redstone doorway that also leads to the foxes, so Moridin wouldn't be in danger of death just by entering the doorway - and being a good strategist he foresaw a way to bargain for what he wanted without losing his skin in the process. Unless it wasn't Moridin at all.

 

Bah. We're getting nowhere. :(

[Neophyte]

They may have a trick that would work on 95% of channelers, but that Moridin is smart/skilled/strong/prepared enough to defeat.

 

It is a mistake to equate what Moridin can do, either with the One Power or the True Power, to what Sally Aes Sedai or Joe Asha'man can do.

[Stevros]

The other thing that occurs to me is the way the Aelfinn & Eelfinn feed off the ability to channel, seems linked to the way the fox-head (and gholam) dissipate the one power, as it seems to absorb the power and retain it. It may just be the fact that Mat got the fox-head from Sindhol that links them in my head.

 

This makes me believe the Finns may have a similar resistance to the One Power???

 

You never know Aginor may have studied the Finns in creating the gholam?

[thisguy]

Even if the Finns (Ja, nice to meet you!) can suck OP channelers dry, Moridin is channeling the TP. The TP's source is the DO himself, which means they'd want him out of their realm as quickly as possible.

[Mulk]

if they put you into a state of induced unconsciousness like they do with Moiraine, I doubt anyone could fight against that. Which leads to how do they do that and why don't they do that to everyone?

 

As an aside, I think the backstory on how the redstone doorways and their covenants came to be would be fascinating.

 

And while I agree Moridin has more knowledge than almost anyone, without knowing what his trick is or how the FInns deal in general with One Power users I think it's also a mistake to overestimate him. Even with massive preparation, entering Finnland is something to be avoided at all costs. Unless there is an agreement or a third doorway, that is. And even with an agreement, striking Bargains with those people seems at best a chancy proposition.

 

If it was Moridin, I wonder what he had to give up to get what he wanted.

[BFG]

Also on a unrelated topic I think it would be quite nice if now Mat has escaped ToG that part of the unravelling of the pattern now means that it is possible to win at the game of snakes and foxes.

 

Pretty sure this already happened - Olver won a game, but I think it coincided with Mat's escape - I'm not sure if it will continue to be the case.

[The Fisher King]

Pretty sure this already happened - Olver won a game, but I think it coincided with Mat's escape - I'm not sure if it will continue to be the case.

 

- Bingo.

 

 

Fish

[Senexx]

I've just finished the book.

 

I agree with the above two statements.

 

I surmise that the entire game that Olver and Talmanes played is exactly what Mat, Thom and Noal did inside.

[Orderofolde]

Ok, I'm going to kick off with what we know:

 

Foxes:

Mat - memory filled, a way to be free of Aes Sedai and the Power, away from you and back to Rhuidean

Moiraine - angreal, ?, ? (although I think one of them will be to survive)

 

Snakes:

Moiraine - ?, ?, ?

Rand - ?, ?, ? Only thing here is that Rhuidean was not one of the answers.

Mat - Should I go home to help my people? (You must go to Rhuidean) Why should I? (If you do not go to Rhuidean, you will die) Why will I die if I do not go to Rhuidean? (You will have sidestepped the thread of fate, left your fate to drift on the winds of time, and you will be killed by those who do not want that fate fulfilled. Now, go.) What fate? Burn your hearts, what fate? What fate? (To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons! To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was! To give up half the light of the world to save the world! Go to Rhuidean, son of battles! Go to Rhuidean, trickster! Go, gambler! Go)

 

 

Any other clues?

 

Fish - true, but that doesn't mean she didn't need to take precautions, we can see with Elayne what happens when you use those predictions to guide your actions (or something like that)

I think that you are the only person that picked up that Mat asked FOUR questions and got three answers for his last and final question.

[Elisaroth]

Ok, I'm going to kick off with what we know:

 

Foxes:

Mat - memory filled, a way to be free of Aes Sedai and the Power, away from you and back to Rhuidean

Moiraine - angreal, ?, ? (although I think one of them will be to survive)

 

Snakes:

Moiraine - ?, ?, ?

Rand - ?, ?, ? Only thing here is that Rhuidean was not one of the answers.

Mat - Should I go home to help my people? (You must go to Rhuidean) Why should I? (If you do not go to Rhuidean, you will die) Why will I die if I do not go to Rhuidean? (You will have sidestepped the thread of fate, left your fate to drift on the winds of time, and you will be killed by those who do not want that fate fulfilled. Now, go.) What fate? Burn your hearts, what fate? What fate? (To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons! To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was! To give up half the light of the world to save the world! Go to Rhuidean, son of battles! Go to Rhuidean, trickster! Go, gambler! Go)

 

 

Any other clues?

 

Fish - true, but that doesn't mean she didn't need to take precautions, we can see with Elayne what happens when you use those predictions to guide your actions (or something like that)

I think that you are the only person that picked up that Mat asked FOUR questions and got three answers for his last and final question.

 

i did notice it and if u remember they answered becose they whole world was about to brake becose of 2 strong taverien in they realm.

this was said in hurry by all 3 and then they grabed him and threw him out of they realm. i still find it funny.(To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons! To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was! To give up half the light of the world to save the world! Go to Rhuidean, son of battles! Go to Rhuidean, trickster! Go, gambler! Go)

[BFG]

Ok, I'm going to kick off with what we know:

 

Foxes:

Mat - memory filled, a way to be free of Aes Sedai and the Power, away from you and back to Rhuidean

Moiraine - angreal, ?, ? (although I think one of them will be to survive)

 

Snakes:

Moiraine - ?, ?, ?

Rand - ?, ?, ? Only thing here is that Rhuidean was not one of the answers.

Mat - Should I go home to help my people? (You must go to Rhuidean) Why should I? (If you do not go to Rhuidean, you will die) Why will I die if I do not go to Rhuidean? (You will have sidestepped the thread of fate, left your fate to drift on the winds of time, and you will be killed by those who do not want that fate fulfilled. Now, go.) What fate? Burn your hearts, what fate? What fate? (To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons! To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was! To give up half the light of the world to save the world! Go to Rhuidean, son of battles! Go to Rhuidean, trickster! Go, gambler! Go)

 

 

Any other clues?

 

Fish - true, but that doesn't mean she didn't need to take precautions, we can see with Elayne what happens when you use those predictions to guide your actions (or something like that)

I think that you are the only person that picked up that Mat asked FOUR questions and got three answers for his last and final question.

 

i did notice it and if u remember they answered becose they whole world was about to brake becose of 2 strong taverien in they realm.

this was said in hurry by all 3 and then they grabed him and threw him out of they realm. i still find it funny.(To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons! To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was! To give up half the light of the world to save the world! Go to Rhuidean, son of battles! Go to Rhuidean, trickster! Go, gambler! Go)

 

I wonder if he got three answers because he asked the question three times, or if that was just coincidence?

 

Back to the title, I think we're up to 3 questions for Rand and Moiraine, 4 for Mat, 3 wishes for Moiraine, Lanfear (Moriden as well?) and 6 for Mat,

 

So 25 bits of info or 19 excluding the forsaken, 10 of which are all Mat.

[driedraspberry]

For Rand's last question, I can't imagine it being anything other than involving sealing the bore or getting rid of DO's influence on the world. I always found Rand's very thought of killing DO more than unusual, even for the hero figure since we're in human to god scales. It makes me wonder if the answer he got pointed him in that direction, falsely assumed or not.

[BFG]

But the problem with either Rand or Moiraine directly asking questions about the shadow (and I think sealing the bore would count) is that there are consequences. Moiraine has been the foxes prisoner and they've been feeding off her for months she may have been able to bargain because of that, but I don't think Rand will have gotten away with it.

[driedraspberry]

True, though that's undermined by Rand asking about the taint and LB without consequences. He could have worded his question carefully, maybe instead asked about the nature of the creator and like beings...I assume their answers could touch upon the shadow, just not his questions.

[Razdif]

Well we know the answer to one or multiple of Moiraine's questions is that she will go through the doorway with Lanfear (do we know whether she knew it would be Lanfear specifically or just a forsaken?) and that Mat and Thom and another will save her etc unless I'm missing a Min viewing or something.

[BFG]

Well we know the answer to one or multiple of Moiraine's questions is that she will go through the doorway with Lanfear (do we know whether she knew it would be Lanfear specifically or just a forsaken?) and that Mat and Thom and another will save her etc unless I'm missing a Min viewing or something.

 

I think this comes from going through the rings - that's why in the letter she gives multiple outcomes and knows that it has to be 3 that go including Mat and Thom

[Razdif]

Oh right, for some reason I keep thinking the rings are similar to the ones in the tower,

[BFG]

I can never remember what she learnt where - at some stage she finds out that sleeping with Rand would be disastrous, but is that from the archway in Tear or the rings? I can't remember

[Razdif]

I personally think rings but I haven't searched. It doesn't seem like something that would come up in her questions unless she asked how to deal with Rand, which we generally agree she didn't because of her saidar epiphany.

[BFG]

True - plus at least first time round we know that she believes that you can't ask any questions that touch on the shadow, that the questions have to relate to herself or her future and that she would find it difficult to ask a question about the Dragon because how can you do that and not touch on the shadow.