CAUTION: Super Spoiler Prologue discussion; Leave the cops out of it :)

[Terez]

I am really unsure about Demandred's actions now, nothing seems to fit in with what is being said. Unless it is just idle nonsense.

 

Moridin has killed and Mindtrapped 2 of the Chosen, and mindtrapped another. He has exclusive rights (as of WH anyway, and Graendal isn't likely to still possess what she did in her brief stint.) to the True Power. He is Nae'blis and the DO's Captain.

 

I cannot see him allowing Demandred to make any "requirements", especially in regards to Rand's life, Moridin has been particularly possessive of Rand's fate. Taim and Demandred seem to hate one another, just like he and Sammael did, I have trouble believing they are working together, Taim is Moridin's creature, and Kisman's PoV suggested Demandred lost any trust he had in Taim a long time ago. Moridin surely knows that.

 

Obviously they have been connected, but the Black Tower is Taim's domain. I doubt a 3rd splinter faction under Demandred would pose a threat to Moridin. I don't think Demandred's power lies in the Black Tower, after all, he says he has armies and his rule is secure. The Black Tower is not.

 

No one was suggesting that Demandred was still in charge at the Black Tower. Only that he was ordering Taim in Moridin's absence, and then upon Moridin's return, Taim went back to answering directly to Moridin. That explains 1) why they know each other and why Demandred was ordering Asha'man at all, and 2) why Demandred is wary of Taim (because Taim no longer answers to him and would sell him out to Moridin in a heartbeat). I'm guessing Taim is credited with all of the Black Tower accomplishments because he was the one doing the real work (and doing a commendable job as well).

 

The might of Murandy - while I think it is more considerable than some think - would hardly give Moridin pause, with the hordes of Shadowspawn and others under his control.

 

Hence why Moridin was disparaging of his accomplishments. His other plans are probably a bit less certain.

[Barid Bel Medar]

The might of Murandy - while I think it is more considerable than some think - would hardly give Moridin pause, with the hordes of Shadowspawn and others under his control.

 

Hence why Moridin was disparaging of his accomplishments. His other plans are probably a bit less certain.

 

Indeed. I didn't mean to suggest that he wasn't also in Murandy. In fact I think that is the main base of operations. But there has to be something else, something Moridin is weary of. Of course, Moridin is disparaging of everything, he will put down any of the Chosen and assert his dominance. What is strange is his sufferance of "requirements". I am willing to believe that Moridin would just simply lie to Demandred to make him happy, but not in front of Moggy, Graendal and Taim. Demandred is practically waving his "control" over Moridin in their faces, showing them that Moridin is fallible. Considering the Shadow's brutal methods, I find it highly unlikely that the DO and Moridin would put up with this kind of thing. They could simply mind-trap him and torture him and be done with it.

 

It seems to me that Moridin suspects Demandred of having something up his sleeve. And if Moridin and the DO are weary and unwilling to take that chance, chances are that threat is very real. Unless Demandred is the greatest poker player of all time and has managed to bluff both Moridin and the DO. Essentially, I agree with you, it could be something to do with the Mercenaries outside Caemlyn, they may be more than it seems. I just think that from what we have read, and Brandon's comments about Demandred being the Shadow's biggest player (I assume this to mean in terms of armed forces and brute strength) and that his doings are the biggest secret in the series, and will pay off in the end, I think that he HAS to have something big up his sleeve, or I will be very let down and feel mislead.

 

 

Edit: I suppose I could believe that the DO and Moridin simply believe Demandred himself is a tool worth the sufferance. It would certainly make him a lot more awesome, if even they respect him, but it would be a letdown in terms of plot and action etc..

[Gythwyn]

Demandrad I think, has a DF army of Aiel waiting to turn Fifth Column half way through,

 

We've not seen any Forsaken with them. I think The Brotherless will turn along with Wise Ones.

 

Simply because i haven't seen anyone mention it yet :P

[Terez]

...But there has to be something else, something Moridin is weary of. Of course, Moridin is disparaging of everything, he will put down any of the Chosen and assert his dominance. What is strange is his sufferance of "requirements". I am willing to believe that Moridin would just simply lie to Demandred to make him happy, but not in front of Moggy, Graendal and Taim. Demandred is practically waving his "control" over Moridin in their faces, showing them that Moridin is fallible. Considering the Shadow's brutal methods, I find it highly unlikely that the DO and Moridin would put up with this kind of thing. They could simply mind-trap him and torture him and be done with it.

 

A friend of mine thinks that Demandred was the only serious contender for Nae'blis, and that his reward was a sort of consolation prize for having his authority taken away at the Black Tower, etc. Clearly at the end of LOC the Dark One is very happy with Demandred, for whatever reason. But this sufferance, as you call it, is not new; Demandred made the same claim in the TGS prologue, and all Moridin did was remind him that the Dark One had the authority to change the plans (which was obvious enough).

 

It seems to me that Moridin suspects Demandred of having something up his sleeve. And if Moridin and the DO are weary and unwilling to take that chance, chances are that threat is very real. Unless Demandred is the greatest poker player of all time and has managed to bluff both Moridin and the DO. Essentially, I agree with you, it could be something to do with the Mercenaries outside Caemlyn, they may be more than it seems. I just think that from what we have read, and Brandon's comments about Demandred being the Shadow's biggest player (I assume this to mean in terms of armed forces and brute strength) and that his doings are the biggest secret in the series, and will pay off in the end, I think that he HAS to have something big up his sleeve, or I will be very let down and feel mislead.

 

Well, everyone's got these perceptions about what sort of thing he HAS to have up his sleeve, but most people tend to go off the deep end into places where we have no evidence for any Demandred involvement whatsoever. Which to me is boring.

[Terez]

Demandrad I think, has a DF army of Aiel waiting to turn Fifth Column half way through,

 

We've not seen any Forsaken with them.

 

Moridin, in this very prologue. And that scene was told in a way that makes it clear that Forsaken are not a regular occurrence in the town. That is, if you're talking about the channelers. I doubt there are enough Aiel Darkfriends to make an army, honestly. And if you're talking about regular Aiel, they have had dealings with several Forsaken, especially if you count the Shaido: Lanfear, Asmodean, Sammael, and Graendal for sure.

[Gythwyn]

Regular Aiel, and I was thinking (on the spot so full of holes) we've not seen a Forsaken encamped like Mesaana at WT, or Aran'gar / Osan'gar.

That is, deep cover organising things from within.

 

Probably not a full DF army as you say, but a possibility, maybe.

 

Speaking of which, I haven't read the Prologue (sleep is a terrible thing) but does it say if Aiel male channelers are still being recruited to either the BT or the Aiel town?

We've not seen any emerge as you think they would, Pattern should be throwing channelers out like anything to help defend itself (if it can).

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

 

A friend of mine thinks that Demandred was the only serious contender for Nae'blis, and that his reward was a sort of consolation prize for having his authority taken away at the Black Tower, etc. Clearly at the end of LOC the Dark One is very happy with Demandred, for whatever reason. But this sufferance, as you call it, is not new; Demandred made the same claim in the TGS prologue, and all Moridin did was remind him that the Dark One had the authority to change the plans (which was obvious enough).

 

Well, everyone's got these perceptions about what sort of thing he HAS to have up his sleeve, but most people tend to go off the deep end into places where we have no evidence for any Demandred involvement whatsoever. Which to me is boring.

 

1. Very possible, which is why I suggested that Moridin has been restricted by the DO. (Moridin doesn't want Rand dead by anyone's hand because of the link, but the DO may not care who does it, as long as they do it "properly" at the appointed time) The tGS prologue did show signs of this agreement, it is just that this piece seems a bit dramatic and misleading as to what is actually going on. Although I find it hard to believe simply setting up Taim earned him that much leeway.

 

2. Oh I agree, and obviously my own bias plays a part in it. I wasn't necessarily trying to dig into deep and wild territory, I don't actually have any strong feelings either way on what he actually does. My main concern was that the interaction was misleading and over-dramatized (although you could say that the Forsaken meetings are purposely dramatic) It just seems that if there is no legitimate cause, the interactions seem very out-of-character and inconsistent with both the DO and Moridin's character.

[TootThatHorn]

Was it not Demandred that was always jealous of being second to LTT? Now he carries this grudge and wants to off Rand, but for all his well doing and being acknowledged by the DO he has failed to gain Nae'blis, so second to Moridin there, and now there is M'Hael, who as a new Chosen really hasn't messed up yet so sits in good favor just from being so fresh, that could be very frustrating to someone who has put in their time and already gets jealous over other people. As aloof as Demandred has been, I feel it keeps him as the biggest wild card. It will take aMoL to see how deep his scheming goes, and realistically what side it ultimately puts him on.

 

I don't see him going to the light, although it's not out of the question, but he may wreak some havoc with the other Forsaken. Dare I say Demandred could unleash a mighty tempest.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Indeed, I feel more and more that his "awesomeness" in aMoL will be himself, not the size or power of his armies. I think it might be the damage he will do personally. A huge army is all well and good, but it only takes 1 person to take out a few of the big guns. For example (and I don't believe this will happen, but as the best example) killing Moridin or Rand would be a HUGE blow, more important than any number of armies or channellers.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Having only read the tidbits here and on theoryland I'm still not convinced that Roemandred isn't partly true. Demandred may be posing as Roedran, but it probably isn't all Demandred is doing. What we know is that Demandred was from Rahvin's point of view to the south and we know that it involves armies and that whatever he does will be huge or RJ/BS wouldn't have kept it hidden for the final book. Murandy by itself certainly is too small for that and even if he is their king most of the people there aren't Darkfriends and they wouldn't ally with trollocs to fight other humans. But it could be an important strategic location for Demandred's plan.

But if Murandy is not the center of Demandred's plan there is one thought I've had. There is a rather large and empty piece of land with a suspicious name we've heard next to nothing about: The Shadow Coast

 

What if Demandred has been using that land as a staging ground? There is nothing there aside from a few steddings and several isolated villages as far as we know. A piece of land more than half as large as Andor which is unclaimed by any nation. Sure it's surrounded by Seanchan occupied nations, but Semirhage, Demandred's ally, was with the Seanchan long enough that she may have ensured that no one paid the area any mind. Demandred could have been bringing Shadowspawn through Waygates ever since he regained his freedom unnoticed. The Seanchan are the strongest single military power other than the combined Aiel clans, but unlike the Aiel they are almost completely unprepared for Shadowspawn. They regard them as myths and superstitions and don't believe in their power. That makes them vulnerable.

 

More and more it seems likely to me that the battleground of the Last Battle will be split. One half will happen in the Blight, starting with Lan at Tarwin's Gap, those evil Aiel and the majority of the Shadowspawn, but the other half starting with Caemlyn and the Black Tower and if my guess is correct Murandy and the Shadow Coast will happen to the south. And we even have a prophecy which would fit that scenario. The one about tying north and east together and binding south and west together.

The north and east, mostly Borderlanders and Aiel fight in the Blight. While to the south and west Seanchan, Illian, Tear Arad Doman fight. That would just leave Andor/Cairhien smack in the middle both of which could go either way.

Two fronts in the battle between Light and Shadow. It is hardly coincidence that Mat is brought to Ebou Dar. If Demandred were to start a battle campaign he could attack the Seanchan from two sides and it would probably take Mat to win the southern war.

[TootThatHorn]

Indeed, I feel more and more that his "awesomeness" in aMoL will be himself, not the size or power of his armies. I think it might be the damage he will do personally. A huge army is all well and good, but it only takes 1 person to take out a few of the big guns. For example (and I don't believe this will happen, but as the best example) killing Moridin or Rand would be a HUGE blow, more important than any number of armies or channellers.

 

For sure, Moridin is essentially the anti-Dragon and the dramatic foil to Rand, so either being killed is huge. Demandred has got to be set up for huge things that will be important to the story, whereas I feel like Moridin is there to die; seriously, what will he do, given that I know Moridin is the leader but doesn't actively do a whole heck of a lot.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Indeed, I feel more and more that his "awesomeness" in aMoL will be himself, not the size or power of his armies. I think it might be the damage he will do personally. A huge army is all well and good, but it only takes 1 person to take out a few of the big guns. For example (and I don't believe this will happen, but as the best example) killing Moridin or Rand would be a HUGE blow, more important than any number of armies or channellers.

 

For sure, Moridin is essentially the anti-Dragon and the dramatic foil to Rand, so either being killed is huge. Demandred has got to be set up for huge things that will be important to the story, whereas I feel like Moridin is there to die; seriously, what will he do, given that I know Moridin is the leader but doesn't actively do a whole heck of a lot.

 

Yeah, Moridin is awesome, but plot-wise, all he really is is fodder for Rand, or a way to defeat the DO (something to do with the link) I don't think he will have a lot to do until Rand goes to Shayol Ghul, and we know Rand won't lose, so Moridin basically just has to die or be used by Rand.

 

That is what makes Cyndane and Demandred so interesting. They are the biggest wildcards, they could do absolutely anything.To a lesser extent even Moggy and Graendal.

[Terez]

Having only read the tidbits here and on theoryland I'm still not convinced that Roemandred isn't partly true. Demandred may be posing as Roedran, but it probably isn't all Demandred is doing.

 

No one ever believed that it was.

[TristanWebb]

Anyway anyone could give me a brief outline about what happens? PM would be fine if anyone has time.

[Terez]

Talmanes: kind of confusing, since he has six POVs and they're all mixed up, but we know a few things. He and Guybon try to defend Caemlyn. Talmanes gets wounded with Fade steel and is not in good shape at the end of the prologue.

 

Slayer: we find out he (Isam) was raised in the Aiel Town near Shayol Ghul. They call themselves the Samma N'Sei, or Eye Blinders. Moridin shows up, for what, we don't know. We do find out all of the red-veiled Aiel were turned to the Shadow by 13-13. Cyndane comes to visit him and tells him to kill Rand, and that he should concentrate on that short of direct orders from the Dark One.

 

Egeanin: She and Domon are at Merrilor looking for Elayne and Nynaeve, because of their history. She thinks to herself that the Seanchan way of thinking is wrong.

 

Aviendha: She tells the Wise Ones (dreamwalkers, Sorilea, etc.) about her visions. They send Bair to Rhuidean to see if it still works. They discuss Rand's plans.

 

Androl: they're trying to figure out what to do about Taim. Rebels still outside. Androl needs an hour to think.

 

Moghedien: Most interesting POV. Taim's new name is M'Hael and he is Chosen now. It's confirmed that he and Demandred know each other. Moridin praises Taim's accomplishments to the disparagement of Moghedien, Demandred, and Graendal. Moghedien is now wearing her own mindtrap; she's on probation. Cyndane is still mindtrapped. Graendal has a new body and a new name: Hessalam, which means 'without forgiveness'. Her new body is extremely ugly. It appears she was also mindtrapped and then allowed to wear her own mindtrap. We learn that Moridin personally rescued Lanfear, and he did it by killing her so that the Dark One could transmigrate her. The Aelfinn are apparently called the Sindhol in the Old Tongue. Demandred again reiterates that he has the right to kill Rand (as per TGS prologue and then Shaidar Haran in TOM), but his equity is not so great, hence the disparagement. Also, Moridin's little constructs in Tel'aran'rhiod are now called 'dreamshards', apparently because Brandon hates us.

[Mik]

So... some theories that have been killed:

 

Taim is Moridin (though I suppose there's still a small chance of that).

 

It's DEAD and I for one could not be happier. It got a bit tiring poking holes in that theory over and over. Sorry Drekka and hey Mik...not so epic!!!! ;)

Aww shucks.

The world has just turned a lot paler.

I just liked the story so much better & I thought it made so much more sense with Ishy transmigrated in Taim's body.

 

Gratz Suttree. (and Koven/ Mr Ares/ Maj/ and the rest of the world I guess)

Haven't read any of the new stuff myself, but I'll take your word for it.

 

<--- sad

 

 

Edit:

@Terez

Thanks for that summary.

I both crave and dread to read the real thing.

Is there a place where I can read this, so I can clean the wound in my soul with some more self-applied salt?

[Gythwyn]

Is it confirmed Moggy can channel with her mindtrap on?

 

Because usually you can't channel near it, and thats just nasty otherwise!

 

(I likes my Moggy)

[Vardar]

Also, Moridin's little constructs in Tel'aran'rhiod are now called 'dreamshards', apparently because Brandon hates us.

 

Constructs? How did I miss this?

 

Also, daaaaayyyyyyyyuuuuuuuuummmmmmmm!

 

What did Grandeal die?

[snooze1128]

Some food for thought that nobody's really touched upon, and I have to admit, it's really not as interesting as the Foresaken speculation that's going on... But, Ardol's POV, IMHO, completely confirms the 13x13 business at the black tower when he says something along the lines of "they completely change over night, from allies to near enemies."

[Sid]

The mindtrap thing just bugs the hell out of me. I almost wish I could skip to the end to avoid the inevitable pitfalls and speed bumps along the way.

[mccullough]

It's weird that Moridin recognizes M'Hael as Taim's name, given it essentially means the Leader (of everything).

Yeah, that weirded me out too. Though it could be his way of snubbing the others. New successful Chosen gets to be called Leader, old ones who failed get names like "wihtout forgiveness" and "last chance".

 

Incidentally, we're missing the section where Hessalam is revealed as Graendal. How does it happen, and does she seem at all broken or changed by her recent punishements?

 

Slayer POV: I leaped for joy when 2 of my theories turned out to be spot on (about the Red-veils, and that Slayer would be ordered to kill Rand and that will be the "other time" Perrin will have to be there for him). I thoroughly enjoyed this. It was damn creepy, and blood and bloody ashes, I actually feel sorry for poor old Isam. No wonder he is a mess. Good old red-veils. Moridin was made real badass here, walking into the lair of the Samma N'sei and killing a few of them to prove his Nae'blis-ness. Brings up a few questions, like the "restrictions" that do not apply to Moridin, but the Samma N'sei.(I like the word, not only the nice irony of the meaning, but it sounds nice and foreboding) The Chosen I think was Cyndane. The change was pretty rough, but it makes sense. Graendal failed, Moridin revoked her status, and now orders Cyndane to order Isam to kill Rand.

 

 

 

I am also very interested to see what the restrictions are. Are they similar to the Aiel and swords, but with a block on using the Power in some way? Hopefully we learn more.

[Necavit]

For those wanting a more detailed Talmanes account.

 

Talmanes goes to save the cannons.

Talmanes is wounded by a Fade off screen, he kills it.

He leads refugees out of the city, and also convinces the mercs to lend a hand.

Heads into the city, finds Guyborn holding the palace still.

Guyborn explains that the Kinswoman who makes gateways has been assassinated.

One kinswoman left, she cant help Talmanes.

Guybron wants to hold the palace untill Elayne sends someone to check up.

Talmanes convinces him thats stupid, and they both set out to get the cannons.

They find Aludra with the cannons, they gather the cannons and head out.

Trollocs have taken the walls, they are surrounded. No way out.

Talames orders that they shoot the walls.

Talmanes blacks out as the walls come down.

 

*Neat tidbit, a Borderlander names Talmanes Dreadbane, apparently a title earned by killing a fade.

[fionwe1987]

Even though we don't have the text for this, it has been confirmed that Lielwin is planning to become da'covale to the Amyrlin. While I'd love to be a fly on the wall to see Egwene's face when this is revealed to her, the important thing is that it seems clear Egwene is definitely going to be the major force in the reconciliation with the Seanchan. If her various Dreams and the thematic clues weren't enough, this seals the deal.

 

Thoughts?

[Necavit]

I'd say Lielwin POV puts an end to any doubts about who the Seanchan woman is in Egwene's dream.

[fionwe1987]

I'd say Lielwin POV puts an end to any doubts about who the Seanchan woman is in Egwene's dream.

There were two. Lielwin is certain now to be the Seanchan woman with Egwene confronting Rand. But the woman with the sword on the mountain? She carries a sword, and Egeanin has a cudgel.