voices in the head...why only Rand?

[XoMeltdownoX]

The voice had to be LTT's. How else would Rand be privy to the knowledge LTT had?

 

No one is saying the memories aren't real...

The voice had to be his too, even if it was constructed from memories. Even his mannerisms, habits, skills and personality traits came through.

 

Which is what the "constructers" say. The memories are real and Rand made the voice up as a coping mechanism. Follow the link I added above. It breaks things down into great detail. The debate has gone on for a very long time and this was one of the topics RJ specifially requested never be answered so I guess we will never really know. In my post above I was just pointing out how the general sentiment shifted post TGS.

If the link is Terez's take, I think it's good thinking. I just happen to think that it could simply be the two personalities fighting inside the body of one man. There's no way to really get into the discussion (for me) without getting all metaphysical. In my mind, the memories and habits of a person are quite a bit of the person's personality. We've all encountered things that have made us different in some way - more hopeful, bitter, whatever. We see in RJ's world that everyone is reborn but they don't necessarily take the habits or skills or even likes and dislikes of their prior lives into their present life. Anyway, it doesn't bother me what anyone thinks about this subject, I just think of them as two different personalities sharing the same soul and body.

Go back a page a read my explanation. Not sure but it may clear it up.

[BFG]

I appreciate that I'm opening myself up to a lot of fire with this, but...

 

Rand's been increasingly screwed up right up until VoG, but... how much of that is due to the taint, because the more I read these threads the more I think it can be explained away without the taint.

 

If we believe Semirhage, men remembering past lives has nothing to do with the taint - the taint and male madness started after she was loched away from the world, yet she implies that it's a condition she's familiar with. This implies that Rands madness caused by the conflict between Rand and 'LTT' (I'm trying not to get into the debate as to whether LTT was real or not, as it doesn't really effect my argument) isn't brought about by the taint.

 

Add in PTSD and claustrophobia caused by his kidnapping by WT AS and the fact that he's been told for the last couple of years that he's destined to go mad, destroy and save the world and die.

 

This could explain a lot of his paranoia, distrust and darkness without needing the taint.

 

Just curious as to what people think?

[muddasssir]

@meltdown you have nailed it man. I said something similar a few years back and was jeered off the board. Metaphorically speaking. , but I have to agree with you and I have always believed that the voice was his mind's way of facing what he could not face. As an example you can take any of the super girls they all have talents that no one have seen or heard in centuries. How do they do that? They get same kind of memory seepage, but they can deal with it because they have received training that allows them to accept all of these things, That is why you get wilders. They again build barriers to keep the harmful memories and feelings out. Remember that all men before the advent of BT were wilders and that includes our main protagonist Rand bloody Al Tho. So, it could simply be the defense mechanism of the brain that lets him blame that all these hideous things like chanelling and the knowledge of how to do it comes from a mad mad in his case LTT.

[thisguy]

I appreciate that I'm opening myself up to a lot of fire with this, but...

 

Rand's been increasingly screwed up right up until VoG, but... how much of that is due to the taint, because the more I read these threads the more I think it can be explained away without the taint.

 

If we believe Semirhage, men remembering past lives has nothing to do with the taint - the taint and male madness started after she was loched away from the world, yet she implies that it's a condition she's familiar with. This implies that Rands madness caused by the conflict between Rand and 'LTT' (I'm trying not to get into the debate as to whether LTT was real or not, as it doesn't really effect my argument) isn't brought about by the taint.

 

Add in PTSD and claustrophobia caused by his kidnapping by WT AS and the fact that he's been told for the last couple of years that he's destined to go mad, destroy and save the world and die.

 

This could explain a lot of his paranoia, distrust and darkness without needing the taint.

 

Just curious as to what people think?

I'm not sure that logic follows. Hear me out, please: People can go insane without the Taint, correct? So, it follows that people can hear voices without the Taint, as it is a form of insanity. Now, the Taint causes insanity, so while we can't rule out that Rand would have heard voices (a form of insanity) without the Taint, we know that the Taint would eventually cause him to go insane. The voice of LTT inside his head is most probably caused by the effects of the Taint on his mind.

[bigdoug1971]

This is a good topic. We never really see any other male-chanelers POV from the books, but Cadsuane does make it clear that men hear voices the 1st time she meets Rand. Semirhage, if you can believe anything she says, also mentions it too when she is captured. She also says that Graendal is aware of it too and this is also the 1st time "integration" is mentioned.

 

For those people arguing about Mat's memories, they aren't from the "old blood". They are memories stuffed into his head from travelers brave enough to go through the Ter'angreal in Rhuidian, or perhaps enter through the Tower of Ghenji. Mat specifically asked for the holes in his memory to be filled.

When he blurts out the old tongue in situation before going to Rhuidian, that was when the old blood was singing.

[BFG]

I appreciate that I'm opening myself up to a lot of fire with this, but...

 

Rand's been increasingly screwed up right up until VoG, but... how much of that is due to the taint, because the more I read these threads the more I think it can be explained away without the taint.

 

If we believe Semirhage, men remembering past lives has nothing to do with the taint - the taint and male madness started after she was loched away from the world, yet she implies that it's a condition she's familiar with. This implies that Rands madness caused by the conflict between Rand and 'LTT' (I'm trying not to get into the debate as to whether LTT was real or not, as it doesn't really effect my argument) isn't brought about by the taint.

 

Add in PTSD and claustrophobia caused by his kidnapping by WT AS and the fact that he's been told for the last couple of years that he's destined to go mad, destroy and save the world and die.

 

This could explain a lot of his paranoia, distrust and darkness without needing the taint.

 

Just curious as to what people think?

I'm not sure that logic follows. Hear me out, please: People can go insane without the Taint, correct? So, it follows that people can hear voices without the Taint, as it is a form of insanity. Now, the Taint causes insanity, so while we can't rule out that Rand would have heard voices (a form of insanity) without the Taint, we know that the Taint would eventually cause him to go insane. The voice of LTT inside his head is most probably caused by the effects of the Taint on his mind.

 

This is pretty much what I always assumed and I agree that it would eventually send him nuts(ier). I'm just wondering how much is the taint and how much is due to other stuff.

[thisguy]

I appreciate that I'm opening myself up to a lot of fire with this, but...

 

Rand's been increasingly screwed up right up until VoG, but... how much of that is due to the taint, because the more I read these threads the more I think it can be explained away without the taint.

 

If we believe Semirhage, men remembering past lives has nothing to do with the taint - the taint and male madness started after she was loched away from the world, yet she implies that it's a condition she's familiar with. This implies that Rands madness caused by the conflict between Rand and 'LTT' (I'm trying not to get into the debate as to whether LTT was real or not, as it doesn't really effect my argument) isn't brought about by the taint.

 

Add in PTSD and claustrophobia caused by his kidnapping by WT AS and the fact that he's been told for the last couple of years that he's destined to go mad, destroy and save the world and die.

 

This could explain a lot of his paranoia, distrust and darkness without needing the taint.

 

Just curious as to what people think?

I'm not sure that logic follows. Hear me out, please: People can go insane without the Taint, correct? So, it follows that people can hear voices without the Taint, as it is a form of insanity. Now, the Taint causes insanity, so while we can't rule out that Rand would have heard voices (a form of insanity) without the Taint, we know that the Taint would eventually cause him to go insane. The voice of LTT inside his head is most probably caused by the effects of the Taint on his mind.

 

This is pretty much what I always assumed and I agree that it would eventually send him nuts(ier). I'm just wondering how much is the taint and how much is due to other stuff.

Personally, the only other thing I can see possibly causing it is - The Eye of The World.

Someone else on this forum (I don't remember who), I believe, attributed Rand's realizing his past life to the Eye. It's never stated in the books, I don't know if RJ has commented on it either. However, knowing of RJ's use of folklore, religion, mythology, mysticism in the books, I wouldn't be surprised. Why call it The Eye of the World? It's like the 3rd Eye. Open it and realize the truth of life - yours and in general. Many people believe opening your third eye would result in knowledge of your past lives.

And, aside from the Eye being used to keep and conceal the DR Banner and one of the Seals for the DO's prison, what was its purpose? It could very well be that this was used to awaken Rand to his past life so he could gain the knowledge necessary for his battle in a much quicker way. As others have pointed out (Terez being the foremost in my thoughts) the voice of LTT starts out in Book 2 ( the Hunt for the Horn) but it's a small voice at that poiint and not attributed to LTT. However, the voice does show itself after Rand's experience at the Eye.

 

So, if it's not the Taint, it's that, IMO. It could be both.

[Kahsm]

The burden of proof is on those saying that it isn't LTT. I have read the arguments, and it introduces far too many new variables and fits far less well than simply accepting that the voice is LTT. Even before Semi said it was the real voice it was obvious it was real and VoG is clearly the nail in the coffin when it comes to Rand was just making things up.

 

On the contrary. The VoG scene was what swung a good deal of the "realers" over to the "constructers" side. If you look at polls and arguments on both sites that is when the numbers shifted heavily to the current state of "realers" pretty much being in the minority.

 

https://docs.google....6IjAohU6c8MULqg

 

I'll refrain from bragging about being a "constructor" all along... this is me refraining. But if the voice is a coping mechanism for memories (which I contend it is), is he actually insane the same way that Semi and Cads would think?

 

If some Asha'man hear voices that are not based on real memories, then they are not coping mechanisms, the voice is the direct result of the taint. Rand's voice is different, it's a result of something else.

 

Luckers seems to suggest that both are options for any tainted MC. I'm not sure about that. I think Rand got the special voice, which you can read more about in a few of the past "Eye of the world" or "taint inoculation" threads ;)

[Mr Ares]

For those people arguing about Mat's memories, they aren't from the "old blood". They are memories stuffed into his head from travelers brave enough to go through the Ter'angreal in Rhuidian, or perhaps enter through the Tower of Ghenji. Mat specifically asked for the holes in his memory to be filled.

Except for that one in TDR, when he is being Healed of the dagger's influence.

 

I'll refrain from bragging about being a "constructor" all along... this is me refraining. But if the voice is a coping mechanism for memories (which I contend it is), is he actually insane the same way that Semi and Cads would think?

 

If some Asha'man hear voices that are not based on real memories, then they are not coping mechanisms, the voice is the direct result of the taint. Rand's voice is different, it's a result of something else.

 

Luckers seems to suggest that both are options for any tainted MC. I'm not sure about that. I think Rand got the special voice, which you can read more about in a few of the past "Eye of the world" or "taint inoculation" threads ;)

He might not be insane in the way Cadsuane thinks he is, but he is in the way Semi thinks he is - she's the one who identifies past life voices as a form of insanity. The taint causes all manner of forms of insanity. Some real voices, some not real voices. There's really no reason to think Rand's voice is anything other than what it was identified as - a symptom of a rare form of insanity.

[thisguy]

For those people arguing about Mat's memories, they aren't from the "old blood". They are memories stuffed into his head from travelers brave enough to go through the Ter'angreal in Rhuidian, or perhaps enter through the Tower of Ghenji. Mat specifically asked for the holes in his memory to be filled.

Except for that one in TDR, when he is being Healed of the dagger's influence.

 

I'll refrain from bragging about being a "constructor" all along... this is me refraining. But if the voice is a coping mechanism for memories (which I contend it is), is he actually insane the same way that Semi and Cads would think?

 

If some Asha'man hear voices that are not based on real memories, then they are not coping mechanisms, the voice is the direct result of the taint. Rand's voice is different, it's a result of something else.

 

Luckers seems to suggest that both are options for any tainted MC. I'm not sure about that. I think Rand got the special voice, which you can read more about in a few of the past "Eye of the world" or "taint inoculation" threads ;)

He might not be insane in the way Cadsuane thinks he is, but he is in the way Semi thinks he is - she's the one who identifies past life voices as a form of insanity. The taint causes all manner of forms of insanity. Some real voices, some not real voices. There's really no reason to think Rand's voice is anything other than what it was identified as - a symptom of a rare form of insanity.

There is a great reason to thing it is something other than a rare form of insanity - the memories, knowledge and skills he has access to are 100% real. He's not just talking to an imaginary personality.

[Mr Ares]

For those people arguing about Mat's memories, they aren't from the "old blood". They are memories stuffed into his head from travelers brave enough to go through the Ter'angreal in Rhuidian, or perhaps enter through the Tower of Ghenji. Mat specifically asked for the holes in his memory to be filled.

Except for that one in TDR, when he is being Healed of the dagger's influence.

 

I'll refrain from bragging about being a "constructor" all along... this is me refraining. But if the voice is a coping mechanism for memories (which I contend it is), is he actually insane the same way that Semi and Cads would think?

 

If some Asha'man hear voices that are not based on real memories, then they are not coping mechanisms, the voice is the direct result of the taint. Rand's voice is different, it's a result of something else.

 

Luckers seems to suggest that both are options for any tainted MC. I'm not sure about that. I think Rand got the special voice, which you can read more about in a few of the past "Eye of the world" or "taint inoculation" threads ;)

He might not be insane in the way Cadsuane thinks he is, but he is in the way Semi thinks he is - she's the one who identifies past life voices as a form of insanity. The taint causes all manner of forms of insanity. Some real voices, some not real voices. There's really no reason to think Rand's voice is anything other than what it was identified as - a symptom of a rare form of insanity.

There is a great reason to thing it is something other than a rare form of insanity - the memories, knowledge and skills he has access to are 100% real. He's not just talking to an imaginary personality.

Which Semi referenced as a rare form of insanity. The reality of the memories, etc. in no way discredits the notion that this is a rare form of insanity.

[thisguy]

For those people arguing about Mat's memories, they aren't from the "old blood". They are memories stuffed into his head from travelers brave enough to go through the Ter'angreal in Rhuidian, or perhaps enter through the Tower of Ghenji. Mat specifically asked for the holes in his memory to be filled.

Except for that one in TDR, when he is being Healed of the dagger's influence.

 

I'll refrain from bragging about being a "constructor" all along... this is me refraining. But if the voice is a coping mechanism for memories (which I contend it is), is he actually insane the same way that Semi and Cads would think?

 

If some Asha'man hear voices that are not based on real memories, then they are not coping mechanisms, the voice is the direct result of the taint. Rand's voice is different, it's a result of something else.

 

Luckers seems to suggest that both are options for any tainted MC. I'm not sure about that. I think Rand got the special voice, which you can read more about in a few of the past "Eye of the world" or "taint inoculation" threads ;)

He might not be insane in the way Cadsuane thinks he is, but he is in the way Semi thinks he is - she's the one who identifies past life voices as a form of insanity. The taint causes all manner of forms of insanity. Some real voices, some not real voices. There's really no reason to think Rand's voice is anything other than what it was identified as - a symptom of a rare form of insanity.

There is a great reason to thing it is something other than a rare form of insanity - the memories, knowledge and skills he has access to are 100% real. He's not just talking to an imaginary personality.

Which Semi referenced as a rare form of insanity. The reality of the memories, etc. in no way discredits the notion that this is a rare form of insanity.

Unless I'm missing something then, I do not think truly remembering your past life is a form of insanity.

[Sharaman]

Nb:

Since Semirhage and Graendal operated in the AOL - that is, pre-Taint -hearing voices is not just a documented sign of insanity, it is a sign of non-taint, "natural" insanity.

Again, Semirhage specifically mentioned that it made no difference whether the memory/ voices were real. That suggests it is something that the AoL medical experts (Semir and Graendal were among the best) checked about - when a loony mentioned incidents or people a voice had informed him/ her about, the AoL doctors tried to verify if that those were real incidents/ people.

They discovered that it sometimes was, and they also found that it didn't matter - the hearers were nuts anyway.

BTW auditory hallucinations are not uncommon - the WoT twist is that these are sometimes about verifiable past-lives.

Cadsuane also clearly knew from personal experience about the fact that voices often happened to Taint-maddened channelers.

There is more than a hint that Taim also knew this - he tells Rand that he must hold on, somehow.

 

I've followed the real/ construct argument with amusement for years.

What difference does it make anyway?

Rand-LTT share the same soul - it's not an external entity. Whatever he hears is coming from inside his own head. Whether it's a construct that helps him cope or the madder LTT "bits of his mind" directly stimulate his auditory functions, it's still from inside his own head.

FWIW if the madder LTT bits of his mind can seize saidin against his conscious will, it can probably directly stimulate his auditory functions and make him hear voices. Or it may be a construct where the saner Rand bit of the mind process LTT memories and impulses verbally.

.

[Luckers]

For those people arguing about Mat's memories, they aren't from the "old blood". They are memories stuffed into his head from travelers brave enough to go through the Ter'angreal in Rhuidian, or perhaps enter through the Tower of Ghenji. Mat specifically asked for the holes in his memory to be filled.

Except for that one in TDR, when he is being Healed of the dagger's influence.

 

I'll refrain from bragging about being a "constructor" all along... this is me refraining. But if the voice is a coping mechanism for memories (which I contend it is), is he actually insane the same way that Semi and Cads would think?

 

If some Asha'man hear voices that are not based on real memories, then they are not coping mechanisms, the voice is the direct result of the taint. Rand's voice is different, it's a result of something else.

 

Luckers seems to suggest that both are options for any tainted MC. I'm not sure about that. I think Rand got the special voice, which you can read more about in a few of the past "Eye of the world" or "taint inoculation" threads ;)

He might not be insane in the way Cadsuane thinks he is, but he is in the way Semi thinks he is - she's the one who identifies past life voices as a form of insanity. The taint causes all manner of forms of insanity. Some real voices, some not real voices. There's really no reason to think Rand's voice is anything other than what it was identified as - a symptom of a rare form of insanity.

There is a great reason to thing it is something other than a rare form of insanity - the memories, knowledge and skills he has access to are 100% real. He's not just talking to an imaginary personality.

Which Semi referenced as a rare form of insanity. The reality of the memories, etc. in no way discredits the notion that this is a rare form of insanity.

Unless I'm missing something then, I do not think truly remembering your past life is a form of insanity.

 

It is. Semirhage makes this very clear.

[thisguy]

She sure does. Hadn't gotten to that in my reread. Doesn't make sense, but that's ok. I guess the Buddha, if you believe in him, was insane.

[Kahsm]

For those people arguing about Mat's memories, they aren't from the "old blood". They are memories stuffed into his head from travelers brave enough to go through the Ter'angreal in Rhuidian, or perhaps enter through the Tower of Ghenji. Mat specifically asked for the holes in his memory to be filled.

Except for that one in TDR, when he is being Healed of the dagger's influence.

 

I'll refrain from bragging about being a "constructor" all along... this is me refraining. But if the voice is a coping mechanism for memories (which I contend it is), is he actually insane the same way that Semi and Cads would think?

 

If some Asha'man hear voices that are not based on real memories, then they are not coping mechanisms, the voice is the direct result of the taint. Rand's voice is different, it's a result of something else.

 

Luckers seems to suggest that both are options for any tainted MC. I'm not sure about that. I think Rand got the special voice, which you can read more about in a few of the past "Eye of the world" or "taint inoculation" threads ;)

He might not be insane in the way Cadsuane thinks he is, but he is in the way Semi thinks he is - she's the one who identifies past life voices as a form of insanity. The taint causes all manner of forms of insanity. Some real voices, some not real voices. There's really no reason to think Rand's voice is anything other than what it was identified as - a symptom of a rare form of insanity.

There is a great reason to thing it is something other than a rare form of insanity - the memories, knowledge and skills he has access to are 100% real. He's not just talking to an imaginary personality.

Which Semi referenced as a rare form of insanity. The reality of the memories, etc. in no way discredits the notion that this is a rare form of insanity.

Unless I'm missing something then, I do not think truly remembering your past life is a form of insanity.

 

It is. Semirhage makes this very clear.

 

Luckily it doesn't invalidate taint inoculation, because the voice isn't the result of the taint, the memory leakage is. I'm sure voices is a common comping mechanism to that uncommon manifestation, but clearly Rand figured out how to cope with it, before he started rearranging the face of the planet. That seems to suggest that he's protected in other ways. For example, a flu inoculation doesn't keep you from ever sneezing or getting a fever -- it just helps you fight it off.

 

Thus my point of how the difference is relevant.

 

And those who keep pulling out occam's razor need to remember that this is fantasy. We're often arguing over what is normal, so i'm arguing that my idea actually has fewer assumptions because of how I perceive their universe. You're assumption of starting at "real life" and counting the assumptions from there often doesn't apply.

[MarkDiLillo]

@Suttree - what are the other topics that RJ specifically requested never be addressed/answered?

 

To the rest of the thread - I think it is very obvious that the voice of LTT in Rand's head was taint induced madness causing Rand to construct the voice. In fact, given VoG, there is no real argument anymore to be made. If you recall...prior to Rand hearing any voices he was already starting to remember things from LTT. At that point, he was actually remembering them as if he had done them himself. There was no madness or anything funny except memories arising. This was very clear. He stopped remembering and started hearing the voice after he began using saidin a lot and at that point most of the memories manifested themselves in the voice only. Until he started to drift towards total insanity and then they began to leak over.

[BFG]

@Suttree - what are the other topics that RJ specifically requested never be addressed/answered?

 

To the rest of the thread - I think it is very obvious that the voice of LTT in Rand's head was taint induced madness causing Rand to construct the voice. In fact, given VoG, there is no real argument anymore to be made. If you recall...prior to Rand hearing any voices he was already starting to remember things from LTT. At that point, he was actually remembering them as if he had done them himself. There was no madness or anything funny except memories arising. This was very clear. He stopped remembering and started hearing the voice after he began using saidin a lot and at that point most of the memories manifested themselves in the voice only. Until he started to drift towards total insanity and then they began to leak over.

 

I suppose it comes doen to how believable Semirhage is as a witness. I don't have the book to hand, but in tGS she states that hearing voices is a form of insanity known in the AoL, since the taint occurred after she was sealed in, voices in heads must have been a condition known before the counterstrike. I can believe that the taint makes it more likely, but the condition itself is not caused by the taint as such.

[MarkDiLillo]

@Suttree - what are the other topics that RJ specifically requested never be addressed/answered?

 

To the rest of the thread - I think it is very obvious that the voice of LTT in Rand's head was taint induced madness causing Rand to construct the voice. In fact, given VoG, there is no real argument anymore to be made. If you recall...prior to Rand hearing any voices he was already starting to remember things from LTT. At that point, he was actually remembering them as if he had done them himself. There was no madness or anything funny except memories arising. This was very clear. He stopped remembering and started hearing the voice after he began using saidin a lot and at that point most of the memories manifested themselves in the voice only. Until he started to drift towards total insanity and then they began to leak over.

 

I suppose it comes doen to how believable Semirhage is as a witness. I don't have the book to hand, but in tGS she states that hearing voices is a form of insanity known in the AoL, since the taint occurred after she was sealed in, voices in heads must have been a condition known before the counterstrike. I can believe that the taint makes it more likely, but the condition itself is not caused by the taint as such.

 

Yes, I think that it is a known form of insanity. In this instance though, Rand was a mentally healthy person and the taint is what was causing the insanity to develop. Prior to the taint, Rand was remembering LTT memories on his own and accepting them despite not liking them and refusing to accept that he was LTT. The taint caused the "damage" that resulted in him construing a voice to deal with those memories. A healthy person wouldn't just imagine a voice in their head because they were remembering something they didn't like.

[TommyRocker]

For those people arguing about Mat's memories, they aren't from the "old blood". They are memories stuffed into his head from travelers brave enough to go through the Ter'angreal in Rhuidian, or perhaps enter through the Tower of Ghenji. Mat specifically asked for the holes in his memory to be filled.

Except for that one in TDR, when he is being Healed of the dagger's influence.

 

I'll refrain from bragging about being a "constructor" all along... this is me refraining. But if the voice is a coping mechanism for memories (which I contend it is), is he actually insane the same way that Semi and Cads would think?

 

If some Asha'man hear voices that are not based on real memories, then they are not coping mechanisms, the voice is the direct result of the taint. Rand's voice is different, it's a result of something else.

 

Luckers seems to suggest that both are options for any tainted MC. I'm not sure about that. I think Rand got the special voice, which you can read more about in a few of the past "Eye of the world" or "taint inoculation" threads ;)

He might not be insane in the way Cadsuane thinks he is, but he is in the way Semi thinks he is - she's the one who identifies past life voices as a form of insanity. The taint causes all manner of forms of insanity. Some real voices, some not real voices. There's really no reason to think Rand's voice is anything other than what it was identified as - a symptom of a rare form of insanity.

There is a great reason to thing it is something other than a rare form of insanity - the memories, knowledge and skills he has access to are 100% real. He's not just talking to an imaginary personality.

Which Semi referenced as a rare form of insanity. The reality of the memories, etc. in no way discredits the notion that this is a rare form of insanity.

Unless I'm missing something then, I do not think truly remembering your past life is a form of insanity.

 

It is. Semirhage makes this very clear.

 

She makes it very clear that she is saying he is insane. That doesn't make it fact. If it had turned out that Naeff really WAS followed by fades that only he could see, could we still say it was a form of insanity? However, him hearing real voices in his head could certainly help to drive him insane, especially if he attributes it to insanity from the start.

[TommyRocker]

@Suttree - what are the other topics that RJ specifically requested never be addressed/answered?

 

To the rest of the thread - I think it is very obvious that the voice of LTT in Rand's head was taint induced madness causing Rand to construct the voice. In fact, given VoG, there is no real argument anymore to be made. If you recall...prior to Rand hearing any voices he was already starting to remember things from LTT. At that point, he was actually remembering them as if he had done them himself. There was no madness or anything funny except memories arising. This was very clear. He stopped remembering and started hearing the voice after he began using saidin a lot and at that point most of the memories manifested themselves in the voice only. Until he started to drift towards total insanity and then they began to leak over.

 

I suppose it comes doen to how believable Semirhage is as a witness. I don't have the book to hand, but in tGS she states that hearing voices is a form of insanity known in the AoL, since the taint occurred after she was sealed in, voices in heads must have been a condition known before the counterstrike. I can believe that the taint makes it more likely, but the condition itself is not caused by the taint as such.

 

A healthy person wouldn't just imagine a voice in their head because they were remembering something they didn't like.

 

And here is a divergence. If it is LTT's soul, memories and experiences, consciousness, et cetera, is it not LTT? And if it is LTT, even if it turns out that Rand gave voice to the prior LTT consciousness, it is still LTT's voice by proxy, isn't it?

[MarkDiLillo]

Dude...they are the same person. Literally, Rand and LTT are the exact same person. Rand was merely remembering his past life and the taint was twisting it into insanity. His insanity revolved around LTT and his memories because Rand didn't want to accept that he was LTT and therefor it was causing him a lot of stress. It was mentally a big deal for him. If spiders were the major thing in his mind that caused him stress then it is likely his insanity would have involved spiders. Without the taint, he would have just been stressed out and worried about the memories/spiders.

[Mr Ares]

Rand should not have been hearing voices. He should not have had LTT's memories. Those memories are real, but the fact that they manifested in Rand is itself an indication that the taint is having an effect. It is a sign of insanity. What Semi says is true. Almost everything she said is something we can independently verify, and everything we can verify is true. She is a woman disinclined to lie. Hearing another man's voice is insanity - that it is a past life voice is still a form of insanity. How did the memories get in his head? Well, maybe it was convenient Dragon magic. But it was probably him going mad. His mind broke down the barriers between lives. That's not something a healthy mind does. All of LTT's memories, all the voices, they are a function of him going mad, which is largely caused by the taint.