People reborn

[Suttree]

How so? You are aware what RJ said about if the females has been involved correct? Are you suggesting they would have come up with a new plan at the last second?

Last second? They had some two years to work together on a plan, if they'd only tried. I don't know about fionwe1987, but I'm saying so, yes.

(BTW Rand and Min are presumably going to come up with a successful plan in much less time, so why not Lews and Latra?)

 

I think you know how I feel about Min coming up with the answer for Rand, I've been fairly outspoken on that.

 

As for the rest it seems as if there were the two plans and that was the extent if it. I suppose if everyone had been on the same page years before its possible as you say.

 

But I mean people always claim that Multiple months was still too short a time to try and figure out something aside from the sealing after the keys were lost. I was just looking at things on the flip side of that.

 

Edit: as an aside I agree with Barid, yoniy0 etc. on The topic of people being reborn. It cheapens things for me if everyone is some historical figure.

[Neophyte]

It can be argued strongly that failing to resolve that conflict led directly to the flawed sealing and the backlash of the taint.

 

How so? You are aware what RJ said about if the females has been involved correct? Are you suggesting they would have come up with a new plan at the last second?

 

I'm actually not aware of that quote ... I'm assuming by the context however that it says something like "Even if the women had helped out, the plan to seal the Dark One wouldn't have worked" and possibly that it would have resulted in saidar being tainted in the backlash too? I'd love to see the quote if you have it handy.

 

Having the entire True Source tainted would, of course, have been an even less desirable result - one that might have resulted in the total destruction of humanity, actually.

 

Still, there seem to be significant parallels between the situations - two of the most powerful channelers in the world, with the same putative goal (defeating the Shadow) presumably both operating in good faith, with a genuine disagreement about how to proceed. One of them is the Dragon, a recognized world leader and one of the most effective people fighting the Shadow. The other stands at the head of a group of all-female channelers, also a recognized leader and effective fighter against the Shadow. Even if the precise plans are not the same, the situations are very similar.

 

Maybe "doing it right this time" means that the Dragon finally has the right plan to propose, and so that is what resolves the conflict. When I say that, thematically, they get a chance to "do it right this time" I'm surely talking about Rand as much as I might be talking about Egwene (assuming that she is Latra Posae reborn).

 

Edit:

 

Edit: as an aside I agree with Barid, yoniy0 etc. on The topic of people being reborn. It cheapens things for me if everyone is some historical figure.

 

Aesthetically, I agree (which I did note in my initial post). I'm just pointing out that there is a theme that has been introduced of "doing it right this time," which gives a rationale for involving the reborn souls of other players from the first time around.

[Suttree]

It can be argued strongly that failing to resolve that conflict led directly to the flawed sealing and the backlash of the taint.

 

How so? You are aware what RJ said about if the females has been involved correct? Are you suggesting they would have come up with a new plan at the last second?

 

I'm actually not aware of that quote ... I'm assuming by the context however that it says something like "Even if the women had helped out, the plan to seal the Dark One wouldn't have worked" and possibly that it would have resulted in saidar being tainted in the backlash too? I'd love to see the quote if you have it handy.

 

Having the entire True Source tainted would, of course, have been an even less desirable result - one that might have resulted in the total destruction of humanity, actually.

 

Still, there seem to be significant parallels between the situations - two of the most powerful channelers in the world, with the same putative goal (defeating the Shadow) presumably both operating in good faith, with a genuine disagreement about how to proceed. One of them is the Dragon, a recognized world leader and one of the most effective people fighting the Shadow. The other stands at the head of a group of all-female channelers, also a recognized leader and effective fighter against the Shadow. Even if the precise plans are not the same, the situations are very similar.

 

Maybe "doing it right this time" means that the Dragon finally has the right plan to propose, and so that is what resolves the conflict. When I say that, thematically, they get a chance to "do it right this time" I'm surely talking about Rand as much as I might be talking about Egwene (assuming that she is Latra Posae reborn).

 

Here you go Neo, we know per RJ the plan was flawed regardless of whether both groups had been involved...

 

Interview: Apr, 2003

Budapest Q&A (Verbatim)

Question

 

Why saidin, why not saidar, was tainted?

Robert Jordan

 

 

Because there were only men in the party that made up the party that made up the Strike at Shayol Ghul, that were setting the seals. In the act of setting the seals, there was a backblast that affected the people doing this. As I pointed out in something...I wrote a piece called The Strike at Shayol Ghul...there was a great division at the time—I don’t know if all of you have read it...or have none of you read it?

QUESTION

 

Yes, yes.

ROBERT JORDAN

 

Okay, then you know about the political struggles that were going on, and the different plans to try and end the War of the Shadow, and seal up the...and why various groups thought that one plan or the other was the best way to go. And in the end, what resulted was the so-called “Fatal Covenant” [it was actually the “Fateful Concord”], which had the female Aes Sedai swearing not to go along with Lews Therin’s plan, that they would not support it. The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted.....

[Neophyte]

Thanks Sut. That makes sense, and still leaves thematic room for "doing it right this time." "Doing it right" would just mean that Rand has the right plan to propose this time - which apparently neither side had last time. Because while Latra Posae was right, apparently, to oppose Lews Therin's plan for the seals, it doesn't seem likely that the plan to use the Choedan Kal (which Posae seems to have supported) would have worked either. So, maybe they're both getting another chance.

 

Again, assuming that Egwene actually is Latra Posae reborn, which would not be my first choice.

[thisguy]

It seems to me the old blood calling to Mat and his past life(ves) are two different things. Unless Rand is an anomaly, you aren't necessarily born into the same gene pool of your previous life - in other words, you didn't have to be an Aiel in your past life to be an Aiel in this life. However, it seems that the older blood has stronger.... memory, which is why Mat remembers the old tongue. I don't know if that actually means that he had to be from Manetheren in his past life.

[MountaineerWV]

I think that Mat is King Aemon reborn. I'm very reluctant to agree that Mat is a descendant of King Aemon. Sure, I suppose the names are similar. Mat Cauthon and Aemon al Caar al Thorin.

 

It just seems to me, that even in a nation as broken as Manetheren, an heir to a King, and perhaps their greatest King, would not sink into obscurity and become horse traders. Unless the heir was a total dunce, he would have the backing of all the survivors to rebuild as best he can. An heir would be similar to Perrin - a local lord.

 

OTOH, I believe someone has suggested that maybe the Wheel is spinning out all these people in the time of its greatest need.

 

Not saying that I was the first to suggest it, but that is something I brought up in the 'Is Lan a HotH' thread. I strongly follow this belief. While there are many times in the Pattern that a Hero is needed to redirect the Pattern to it's natural progression, there are only a few events such as what is happening in Randland currently. At most, one per Age (so seven) and more likely less because there is not a Dark One (and the end of existence) in every Age.

 

If there was ever a time that the Pattern needed to spin out as many Heros as possible, and therefore induce a major redirection in the Pattern, the time is now.

[thisguy]

It's possible that Tam Al'Thor is a descendant of Aemon, as Al'Thor maybe derived from Al'Thorin. Although, Al does mean son of. So, it could have just been some dude named Thor.

[TristanWebb]

If Aemon had a kid, if it was old enough to carry a sword it would of been killed without an heir, if it wasn't it would of stayed with its mother in Manetheren and been exploded by her. The direct bloodline is dead.

[yoniy0]

Unless the heir was a total dunce, he would have the backing of all the survivors to rebuild as best he can.

You mean, the same way Lan is? Yes, probably, an heir would be recognized in the courts of the time (keep in mind, a daughter might not enjoy the same status as a son, depending on local customs). But if the heir refused to take on the mantle of leadership (in the exact same manner Lan did), his or her bloodline could've disappeared into obscurity.

 

If Aemon had a kid, if it was old enough to carry a sword it would of been killed without an heir, if it wasn't it would of stayed with its mother in Manetheren and been exploded by her. The direct bloodline is dead.

And again, do you mean like Lan died with his father or mother? People have a way of trying to protect their children, even when they knowingly march to their deaths.

[MountaineerWV]

Unless the heir was a total dunce, he would have the backing of all the survivors to rebuild as best he can.

You mean, the same way Lan is? Yes, probably, an heir would be recognized in the courts of the time (keep in mind, a daughter might not enjoy the same status as a son, depending on local customs). But if the heir refused to take on the mantle of leadership (in the exact same manner Lan did), his or her bloodline could've disappeared into obscurity.

 

Manetheren was not swallowed by the Blight. People still live there, they have rebuilt after a fashion. Malkier is inhabitable. Though we do see communities of Malkieri that settle and live together and maintain their national traditions.

[Mulk]

RJ has made clear that time is cyclical in WoT and therefore everyone is someone reborn, with the possible exception of souls that are balefired. I'm not sure how exactly that works. I doubt we'll know for sure that Egwene is Latra Posae or anyone else in particular reborn as aside from Rand, Mat (for whom we can't say for sure), Birgitte and perhaps Elayne, who mimics both the name and appearance, or at least hair color of Ilyena, we have no idea who is who and we have no real indication of being able to learn that. Mat's memories of the fall of Manetheren could indicate he was a commander in the army who is subject to Aemon but trusted to issue orders and command a section of the army; a general in short - given that Mat never names who he is in those memories, it's open to conjecture.

 

As to the reason Manetheren never rose again, their city was completely gone and the vast majority of their people were dead; remember, they didn't flee the capital, they went to join the army and they weren't quite destroyed to the man and woman but it came close. There wasn't enough left to restart a country from scratch, and the Trolloc Wars weren't over yet so it wasn't like there was a massive amount of aid to be sent to rebuild. There were probably far fewer of them than there were Malkieri who survived the fall of Malkier. By the time the Trolloc Wars were fully and finally over, people elsewhere had begun to move on from the fall of one of their greatest allies and begun to forget. I don't think any of the Ten Nations survived the Trolloc Wars intact, so people had plenty to worry about on their own fronts, regardless of where they lived.

[pamela]

The old generals are not from Mat's own memories, they were just randon travellers who had adventured to see the Finns. There is a fair amount of evidence that Mat is King Aemon reborn however.

 

Sorry, but how can you be so sure of it? I mean, the memories belonging to random travellers and not Mat's previous lives?

[Barid Bel Medar]

The old generals are not from Mat's own memories, they were just randon travellers who had adventured to see the Finns. There is a fair amount of evidence that Mat is King Aemon reborn however.

 

Sorry, but how can you be so sure of it? I mean, the memories belonging to random travellers and not Mat's previous lives?

 

INTERVIEW: Jul, 2002

COT: 'Glimmers' Ebook Q&A (Verbatim)

 

QUESTION

Are all of Mat’s memories from his past lives?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

No, Mat’s “old” memories are not from his past lives at all. The “sickness” he got from the Shadar Logoth dagger resulted in holes in his memory. He found whole stretches of his life that seemed to be missing. When he passed through the “doorframe” ter’angreal in Rhuidean, one of the things he said – not knowing that the rules here were different than in the other ter’angreal he had used – was that he wanted the holes in his memory filled up, meaning that he wanted to recover his own memories. In this place, however, it was not a matter of asking questions and receiving answers, but of striking bargains for what you want. What he received for that particular demand was memories gathered by the people on that side of the ter’angreal, memories from many men, all long dead, from many cultures. And since not everyone passing by has the nerve to journey through a ter’angreal to some other world, the memories he received were those of adventurers and soldiers and men of daring.

[pamela]

The old generals are not from Mat's own memories, they were just randon travellers who had adventured to see the Finns. There is a fair amount of evidence that Mat is King Aemon reborn however.

 

Sorry, but how can you be so sure of it? I mean, the memories belonging to random travellers and not Mat's previous lives?

 

INTERVIEW: Jul, 2002

COT: 'Glimmers' Ebook Q&A (Verbatim)

 

QUESTION

Are all of Mat’s memories from his past lives?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

No, Mat’s “old” memories are not from his past lives at all. The “sickness” he got from the Shadar Logoth dagger resulted in holes in his memory. He found whole stretches of his life that seemed to be missing. When he passed through the “doorframe” ter’angreal in Rhuidean, one of the things he said – not knowing that the rules here were different than in the other ter’angreal he had used – was that he wanted the holes in his memory filled up, meaning that he wanted to recover his own memories. In this place, however, it was not a matter of asking questions and receiving answers, but of striking bargains for what you want. What he received for that particular demand was memories gathered by the people on that side of the ter’angreal, memories from many men, all long dead, from many cultures. And since not everyone passing by has the nerve to journey through a ter’angreal to some other world, the memories he received were those of adventurers and soldiers and men of daring.

 

Thanks a lot, I didn't know the quote. I just remembered some discussions about Mat's memories on DM.

[New Ashaman]

I tend to disagree on the trend being established. While I don't think all of the characters are reborn from major historical figures at least Ta'veren are. I think all of the hero's of the horn when reborn are Ta'veren. the rest of the people reborn are probably just normal people. So Rand, Perrin, and Mat are all reborn of some famous people the rest of the characters don't seem likely. At least to me.

[yoniy0]

Do you know that Rand, Perrin and Mat weren't ta'veren until just before Moiraine came to the Two Rivers? Ta'veren-hood is fleeting, one is only ta'veren as long as the Pattern needs one to be.

Also, we've never heard of any other ta'veren but LTT, Artur Paendrag Tanreall and the three boys, whereas Birgitte at least has been spun out many times between the Breaking and TG. Did everyone simply miss there being many more ta'veren around?

[Neophyte]

Do you know that Rand, Perrin and Mat weren't ta'veren until just before Moiraine came to the Two Rivers? Ta'veren-hood is fleeting, one is only ta'veren as long as the Pattern needs one to be.

Also, we've never heard of any other ta'veren but LTT, Artur Paendrag Tanreall and the three boys, whereas Birgitte at least has been spun out many times between the Breaking and TG. Did everyone simply miss there being many more ta'veren around?

 

I imagine that many "weaker" ta'veren might go completely unnoticed, at least, as being ta'veren. They're probably considered lucky, or relatively influential, but unless someone with a Talent for seeing ta'veren takes a peek at them, it's likely no one would be sure whether they were or not. As Verin implied, ta'veren effects often mimic random chance - random chance just works randomly in their favor.

 

Also, I think it is generally believed that Mabriam en Shareed, founder of the Compact of the Ten Nations was ta'veren (TFoH chapter 3).

 

But there must have been a few minor ones kicking around from time to time. Otherwise how would Siuan Sanche have known that the glow she saw around Rand at Fal Dara was the glow of seeing ta'veren? Unless that's just an early bookism, she must have seen one before ...

[yoniy0]

Also, I think it is generally believed that Mabriam en Shareed, founder of the Compact of the Ten Nations was ta'veren (TFoH chapter 3).

Yes, you're right. Forgot about her. Anyway, I'm really unsure about Siuan; hard to trust that sort of thing in TEotW and TGH. And yet, I find it hard to believe a ta'veren would escape notice, because their very function is to induce a change in the Pattern.

[Durinax]

Also, I think it is generally believed that Mabriam en Shareed, founder of the Compact of the Ten Nations was ta'veren (TFoH chapter 3).

Yes, you're right. Forgot about her. Anyway, I'm really unsure about Siuan; hard to trust that sort of thing in TEotW and TGH. And yet, I find it hard to believe a ta'veren would escape notice, because their very function is to induce a change in the Pattern.

wasn't rands dad also a taveren? When he almost united the clans

[Neophyte]

Also, I think it is generally believed that Mabriam en Shareed, founder of the Compact of the Ten Nations was ta'veren (TFoH chapter 3).

Yes, you're right. Forgot about her. Anyway, I'm really unsure about Siuan; hard to trust that sort of thing in TEotW and TGH. And yet, I find it hard to believe a ta'veren would escape notice, because their very function is to induce a change in the Pattern.

wasn't rands dad also a taveren? When he almost united the clans

 

He might have been for a time, but we don't know if that was ever confirmed.

 

 

Also, I think it is generally believed that Mabriam en Shareed, founder of the Compact of the Ten Nations was ta'veren (TFoH chapter 3).

Yes, you're right. Forgot about her. Anyway, I'm really unsure about Siuan; hard to trust that sort of thing in TEotW and TGH. And yet, I find it hard to believe a ta'veren would escape notice, because their very function is to induce a change in the Pattern.

 

Just because they're inducing a change in the Pattern doesn't mean others will necessarily notice that they're inducing a change in the Pattern. What happens will just seem like what would have happened. Relatively small ta'veren would make small scale changes - that sort of thing might happen in a cabin in the woods as easily as it might happen in the court of a king - and never appear in the pages of history.

[MountaineerWV]

Also, I think it is generally believed that Mabriam en Shareed, founder of the Compact of the Ten Nations was ta'veren (TFoH chapter 3).

Yes, you're right. Forgot about her. Anyway, I'm really unsure about Siuan; hard to trust that sort of thing in TEotW and TGH. And yet, I find it hard to believe a ta'veren would escape notice, because their very function is to induce a change in the Pattern.

 

Dang it, Neophyte beat me to it.

 

He should have used that tired old quote that goes somewhat like "A butterfly flaps it's wings and causes an earthquake on the other side of the world."

 

:)

 

Birgitte mentions that she has had boring lives, but she may have still had a huge effect. Another example would be the one she mentioned to Mat, where she died in the ToG. Only the Creator and the Pattern knows how she was to affect the future by dying in the ToG...but she must have. Mat remembers hearing tales of that death - so something came about because of it.

[Durinax]

Also, I think it is generally believed that Mabriam en Shareed, founder of the Compact of the Ten Nations was ta'veren (TFoH chapter 3).

Yes, you're right. Forgot about her. Anyway, I'm really unsure about Siuan; hard to trust that sort of thing in TEotW and TGH. And yet, I find it hard to believe a ta'veren would escape notice, because their very function is to induce a change in the Pattern.

 

Dang it, Neophyte beat me to it.

 

He should have used that tired old quote that goes somewhat like "A butterfly flaps it's wings and causes an earthquake on the other side of the world."

 

:)

 

Birgitte mentions that she has had boring lives, but she may have still had a huge effect. Another example would be the one she mentioned to Mat, where she died in the ToG. Only the Creator and the Pattern knows how she was to affect the future by dying in the ToG...but she must have. Mat remembers hearing tales of that death - so something came about because of it.

like she said the weird thing is that the story of that came out of the tower, even though she did not

[Neophyte]

 

He should have used that tired old quote that goes somewhat like "A butterfly flaps it's wings and causes an earthquake on the other side of the world."

 

 

LOL ... I wrote a line about the butterfly effect, then wrote another about how I hate that theory but it seems to fit here ... then just edited the whole thing out.

[ozimandias]

Lately I've felt pretty strongly that Oliver is Gaidal Cain. Not that it will come into play much, but I think it will be a little easter egg at a point.

 

Birgitte mentions Gaidal has been missing from Tel'aran'rhiod before she was pulled out (though not for long and time runs differently there).

They overly focus on Oliver's ugliness, as they often do with Gaidal.

He's living a pretty darn interesting life and being trained by one of the greatest generals of an age.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Ughh