Chapter 11

[TristanWebb]

Maybe his wife has an inn and he is working the gates to cover her while she is starting out?

[Neophyte]

Maybe his wife has an inn and he is working the gates to cover her while she is starting out?

 

Considering the nice fat purse of gold Mat gave them, I wouldn't have thought that would be necessary ... but maybe running an inn is more expensive than I thought.

 

Of course, if it is, I doubt that a gate-guard's pay is going to make much difference ... ah well.

[he who comes with a bong]

Maybee after him and his wife left the show they were waylaid by highway travellers so to say, wife gets killed in said fight Petra joins up with seanchan as way to get back at said bandits. Inn never got started.

[DemandredFO]

I think brandon writes Mat just fine, and I liked the excerpt. I'm thinking Mat is there to "take command" when trollocs attack Ebou Dar. If people don't like WOT with Brandon, DON'T READ IT!!! I come here so seldom anymore because of all the Brandon HATE.

[Suttree]

If people don't like WOT with Brandon, DON'T READ IT!!! I come here so seldom anymore because of all the Brandon HATE.

 

It is a truly sad state of affairs when any critique or dissenting opinion equals hate. This kind of knee jerk reaction bogs down any constructive discussion on the topic. Turning a blind eye to the very real issues(which the author and Team Jordan have admitted) and only allowing for sycophantic praise not only stalls out Brandon's growth as an author but sullys the legacy of TWoT in the long run. I know for a fact people that have personnel relationships with Brandon have risked that in order to convey the issues hoping the series continues to get better. That type of behavior should be praised and certainly not called out as hate. I can think of no further form of disrespect to the series than pretending all is well in order get our hands on the finish.

[SuperFade]

If people don't like WOT with Brandon, DON'T READ IT!!! I come here so seldom anymore because of all the Brandon HATE.

 

It is a truly sad state of affairs when any critique or dissenting opinion equals hate. This kind of knee jerk reaction bogs down any constructive discussion on the topic. Turning a blind eye to the very real issues(which the auhthor and Team Jordan have admitted) and only allowing for sycophantic praise not only stalls out Brandon's growth as an author but sullys the legacy of TWoT in the long run. I know for a fact people that have personnel relationships with Brandon have risked that in order to convey the issues hoping the series continues to get better. That type of behavior should be praised and certainly not called out as hate. I can think of no further form of disrespect to the series than pretending all is well in order get our hands on the finish.

 

Saying that all those who don't see anything wrong with Brandon's writing are all sycophants is glossing over the issue because some of the complaints are indeed the result of fan entitlement. People were going to complain no matter what Brandon did. Hugbox-style environments are pretty much the worst thing on the internet but that goes the other way as well. I find a lot of the criticism Brandon gets to be unfounded or nitpicky, with the exception of Mat, who seems to get worse and worse with every new book.

[Orderofolde]

I can't believe after 4+ pages of reading no one brought up Petra as being a Seanchan guard at the gate when Mat enters the city. Were he and his wife spies? We've seen what a great refuge Valan Luca's show has been to nearly all the main characters. And if not, then it means that Luca reversed course and went right back through all the towns and places he and the show had already been through at a distinct lack of a draw. (after all, how many times are you going to the circus in a year?) I agree that the identification was way off. Should have been more like, "It was Petra! Petra, of all people! How under the light had the man and his wife gone from wanting an Inn to being in Ebou Dar?"

 

I agree....but your gripe is an actual plot point that may well be explained. If there is no sufficient explanation that is important enough to do justice to this little detail then you are absolutely correct - this is another thing destroyed by BS. I'm holding my breath and hoping though.

It was more a statement to identify that we all know who Petra is, he didn't need the whole bit about him being the strongman from Valan Luca's Traveling Show. RJ used to just drop a name and a hint and sometimes I'd be flipping back through pages trying to remember who a person was. Of course after reading ahead a little bit he

I think brandon writes Mat just fine, and I liked the excerpt. I'm thinking Mat is there to "take command" when trollocs attack Ebou Dar. If people don't like WOT with Brandon, DON'T READ IT!!! I come here so seldom anymore because of all the Brandon HATE.

It isn't BS hate. It is the fans identification of the difference in styles and showing that even BS admits he info dumps when it comes to Mat because he is likely the hardest to write. After all, fans have criticized what they thought BS wrote only to find out that RJ wrote a particular scene and lauded scenes they thought RJ wrote only to discover that BS pulled them off nicely. I think that what a lot of people haven't picked up on is the change of Mat's internal voice, not by a change in writer style, but his change as a character. We have Mat go from a village prankster, to a gambler and a rogue and a lover of all women to include a queen. More and more Mat finds himself giving a nod to his father and what the man taught him about horseflesh, and Mat was ever the shirker of chores, or at least he hated milking his father's cows and was tired of life in a small flyspeck village. Now he is maturing and realizing that odious as the chores might have been, tired as he was mucking stalls and having his sisters tattle on him, he came away with a greater understanding that has helped guide him far from home. The very chores he loathed helped him win the bulk of the gold in his chest and to impress Tuon in his choice of the perfect gift of a horse for her.

 

Mat went to the Finns thinking gleefully of three wishes/questions fulfilled and then he is told 'you are fated to marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons' and now he's not only found her, but is married to her. A woman that constantly both intrigues and vexes him. He can't figure her out and he is out of his element now as a married man. He has trouble still eyeing women, but always pushes the guilt off that she would be good for this man or that which he knows, trouble with accepting banter from Thom and Talmanes in past books. That was gone in this chapter. When he found out that assassins were after his wife whom he strangely loves without reservation, he doffs the disguise and runs off with a whole "Hell hath no fury" attitude. I actually pity Galgan and his game playing. Tuon is the only one that can save the High Lord General now. Mat has done some growing since the ToG, and of course hitting chapter 11 without Mat's input through the Prologue and chapters 1-10 leaves it a bit rough as well. We would never start reading a book partway through as it leaves a lot unknown.

[Suttree]

If people don't like WOT with Brandon, DON'T READ IT!!! I come here so seldom anymore because of all the Brandon HATE.

 

It is a truly sad state of affairs when any critique or dissenting opinion equals hate. This kind of knee jerk reaction bogs down any constructive discussion on the topic. Turning a blind eye to the very real issues(which the auhthor and Team Jordan have admitted) and only allowing for sycophantic praise not only stalls out Brandon's growth as an author but sullys the legacy of TWoT in the long run. I know for a fact people that have personnel relationships with Brandon have risked that in order to convey the issues hoping the series continues to get better. That type of behavior should be praised and certainly not called out as hate. I can think of no further form of disrespect to the series than pretending all is well in order get our hands on the finish.

 

Saying that all those who don't see anything wrong with Brandon's writing are all sycophants is glossing over the issue because some of the complaints are indeed the result of fan entitlement. People were going to complain no matter what Brandon did. Hugbox-style environments are pretty much the worst thing on the internet but that goes the other way as well. I find a lot of the criticism Brandon gets to be unfounded or nitpicky, with the exception of Mat, who seems to get worse and worse with every new book.

 

It was not my intent to impy all those who see nothing wrong to be sycophants. The context of my message was directed at those who see any critiscism as hate(notice I said "only allowing for"). In addition saying people were going to complain no matter what Brandon did is unequivicolly false. This is evidenced by the fact that fans were univerally grateful upon release. It has only been after careful study during rereads that we have seen the wholesale shift in sentiment.

[thisguy]

I can't believe after 4+ pages of reading no one brought up Petra as being a Seanchan guard at the gate when Mat enters the city. Were he and his wife spies? We've seen what a great refuge Valan Luca's show has been to nearly all the main characters. And if not, then it means that Luca reversed course and went right back through all the towns and places he and the show had already been through at a distinct lack of a draw. (after all, how many times are you going to the circus in a year?) I agree that the identification was way off. Should have been more like, "It was Petra! Petra, of all people! How under the light had the man and his wife gone from wanting an Inn to being in Ebou Dar?"

 

I agree....but your gripe is an actual plot point that may well be explained. If there is no sufficient explanation that is important enough to do justice to this little detail then you are absolutely correct - this is another thing destroyed by BS. I'm holding my breath and hoping though.

It was more a statement to identify that we all know who Petra is, he didn't need the whole bit about him being the strongman from Valan Luca's Traveling Show. RJ used to just drop a name and a hint and sometimes I'd be flipping back through pages trying to remember who a person was. Of course after reading ahead a little bit he

I think brandon writes Mat just fine, and I liked the excerpt. I'm thinking Mat is there to "take command" when trollocs attack Ebou Dar. If people don't like WOT with Brandon, DON'T READ IT!!! I come here so seldom anymore because of all the Brandon HATE.

It isn't BS hate. It is the fans identification of the difference in styles and showing that even BS admits he info dumps when it comes to Mat because he is likely the hardest to write. After all, fans have criticized what they thought BS wrote only to find out that RJ wrote a particular scene and lauded scenes they thought RJ wrote only to discover that BS pulled them off nicely. I think that what a lot of people haven't picked up on is the change of Mat's internal voice, not by a change in writer style, but his change as a character. We have Mat go from a village prankster, to a gambler and a rogue and a lover of all women to include a queen. More and more Mat finds himself giving a nod to his father and what the man taught him about horseflesh, and Mat was ever the shirker of chores, or at least he hated milking his father's cows and was tired of life in a small flyspeck village. Now he is maturing and realizing that odious as the chores might have been, tired as he was mucking stalls and having his sisters tattle on him, he came away with a greater understanding that has helped guide him far from home. The very chores he loathed helped him win the bulk of the gold in his chest and to impress Tuon in his choice of the perfect gift of a horse for her.

 

Mat went to the Finns thinking gleefully of three wishes/questions fulfilled and then he is told 'you are fated to marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons' and now he's not only found her, but is married to her. A woman that constantly both intrigues and vexes him. He can't figure her out and he is out of his element now as a married man. He has trouble still eyeing women, but always pushes the guilt off that she would be good for this man or that which he knows, trouble with accepting banter from Thom and Talmanes in past books. That was gone in this chapter. When he found out that assassins were after his wife whom he strangely loves without reservation, he doffs the disguise and runs off with a whole "Hell hath no fury" attitude. I actually pity Galgan and his game playing. Tuon is the only one that can save the High Lord General now. Mat has done some growing since the ToG, and of course hitting chapter 11 without Mat's input through the Prologue and chapters 1-10 leaves it a bit rough as well. We would never start reading a book partway through as it leaves a lot unknown.

Good points. How do we know that Mat's 'growth' isn't part of RJ's notes and that BS is trying to write this more.... mature Mat into the book???

 

Rand's changed at least 4x I can think of, off the top of my head. His internal voice changes throughout the reading - and I've read some people here don't like the HardRand or DarkRand voices.

[Suttree]

Rand's changed at least 4x I can think of, off the top of my head. His internal voice changes throughout the reading - and I've read some people here don't like the HardRand or DarkRand voices.

 

Truly? I find that odd, Rand's descent and Brandon's handling of Dark Rand receieve as much if not more praise than anything in the series.

 

As for Mat you can allow for a certian amount of leeway for this mature Mat and yet he has gone from rogue to jester which doesn't fit. Further these ridiculous invented "back stories" and inner thoughts are just painful. Also keep in mind Brandon himself admitted how off the mark he was. Those issues that made it off the mark in TGS are still very much evident.

[thisguy]

Rand's changed at least 4x I can think of, off the top of my head. His internal voice changes throughout the reading - and I've read some people here don't like the HardRand or DarkRand voices.

 

Truly? I find that odd, Rand's descent and Brandon's handling of Dark Rand receieve as much if not more praise than anything in the series.

 

As for Mat you can allow for a certian amount of leeway for this mature Mat and yet he has gone from rogue to jester which doesn't fit. Further these ridiculous invented "back stories" and inner thoughts are just painful. Also keep in mind Brandon himself admitted how off the mark he was. Those issues that made it off the mark in TGS are still very much evident.

I don't have a problem with BS's version of Rand. I have read people here complain about both the Hard Rand and Dark Rand characters. I'm not bringing up Rand exclusively in a BS writing context. I bring him up as we've seen him change throughout the books more than any other main character (IMO) aside from maybe Nyna. I don't mean more drastically (although, there is that, too), I mean more personality shifts. Maybe, BS had to write a personality change in Mat. I don't know. Maybe he didn't. While there is nothing wrong with criticism, these boards are full of BS hate. I don't mean that everyone with a gripe hates the guy's writing, but if you look at the BS criticisms, it seems as if - at the very least - an aggressive minority just hate what he's done.

[Suttree]

While there is nothing wrong with criticism, these boards are full of BS hate. I don't mean that everyone with a gripe hates the guy's writing, but if you look at the BS criticisms, it seems as if - at the very least - an aggressive minority just hate what he's done.

 

What constitutes hate to your mind? Is it an unfair critique or bashing without any basis? Is it over the top anti-BS posts? Would be interested to see you post an example of what you consider BS "hate". I don't believe I have ever seen someone claim what he has done to be universally bad. I don't think I have really seen much unfounded critisciscm. If anything the fan base inititally gave him a huge amount of leeway.

 

As I mentiond above many of the Dark Rand scenes were excellant. Think the issue is most of the two books are just so uneven. You are clipping along enjoying yourself and then get bounced right out of the narrative due to poor writing, a timeline issue, or characters being off(being a lit major I'm sure it isn't fun for you to have to read down at times, it becomes terribly distracting). Again this is especially troubling given what we now know of how he handled the process and the amount of work he pushed off on to Team Jordan.

[thisguy]

When someone says he's destroyed parts of the book - Destroyed - I take that as a strong negative perception of his handling of the books. If you don't want to label it hate, fine. It's a semantic argument. And, saying he wholesale destroyed plots or characters is not constructive criticism, in my mind..

 

As for what he pushed off onto team Jordan - if team Jordan didn't give him enough time, and I've read this here, then I have no problem with him pushing off tasks to them.

 

I have a hard time criticizing the man's work if he wasn't even given enough time to do a good job. And, I think he did a pretty good job overall. No matter what he, or anyone else did, there would be plenty of gripes. The most telling sign of this is that people mistook his writing for RJ's and RJ's for his writing.

 

Edit to add - I'm not talking about your criticisms exclusively here - at all. Other people have complained about Dark Rand and Hard Rand.

 

Edit to add more - again, my bringing up Rand's personality shifts were not BS exclusive. I've read people's posts on this forum that say they were bored or tired of reading or just didn't like Hard Rand - they didn't like his whole list of women he killed and his recitation of it, etc. This is a part written by RJ. My point being, that when I read people lay all of this blame on BS, obviously people also had problems with RJ's writing of characters or plot lines. All of this is to be expected. To quote 'History of the world' - "And of course, with the birth of the artist came the inevitable afterbirth... the critic. "

[Suttree]

When someone says he's destroyed parts of the book - Destroyed - I take that as a strong negative perception of his handling of the books. If you don't want to label it hate, fine. It's a semantic argument. And, saying he wholesale destroyed plots or characters is not constructive criticism, in my mind..

 

As for what he pushed off onto team Jordan - if team Jordan didn't give him enough time, and I've read this here, then I have no problem with him pushing off tasks to them.

 

I have a hard time criticizing the man's work if he wasn't even given enough time to do a good job. And, I think he did a pretty good job overall. No matter what he, or anyone else did, there would be plenty of gripes. The most telling sign of this is that people mistook his writing for RJ's and RJ's for his writing.

 

Edit to add - I'm not talking about your criticisms exclusively here - at all. Other people have complained about Dark Rand and Hard Rand.

 

Hmm I never have seen the "destroyed" claim, that is a bit much obviously and I may have an inkling to who you are referring to. In regards to people mistaking the writing I think it is a bit overblown. The only scene I really recall that happening with was the ToG sequence that RJ wrote "most" of but still had elements of BS worked in. It is not something that happens often and the chapters such as Hinderstrap would never be confused with RJ's writing. People need to keep in mind RJ's written parts have turned out to be far less robust than what was previously thought.

 

As for the time issue the books were produced far too quickly. That can not be argued and it was a huge mistake. To my mind though it is the authors duty to say stop, this is not ready to publish. It needs more work and then take responsibility for getting it right. You can't just pass it up the line and say this is what you get(which is why the announcement of him being done before edits were finished and a beta reader had even seen AMoL was so shocking). Further many of the things Brandon shrugged off were things he claimed he could not do better than RJ and decided to not even try instead of working to get better. We know this for fact.

[thisguy]

When someone says he's destroyed parts of the book - Destroyed - I take that as a strong negative perception of his handling of the books. If you don't want to label it hate, fine. It's a semantic argument. And, saying he wholesale destroyed plots or characters is not constructive criticism, in my mind..

 

As for what he pushed off onto team Jordan - if team Jordan didn't give him enough time, and I've read this here, then I have no problem with him pushing off tasks to them.

 

I have a hard time criticizing the man's work if he wasn't even given enough time to do a good job. And, I think he did a pretty good job overall. No matter what he, or anyone else did, there would be plenty of gripes. The most telling sign of this is that people mistook his writing for RJ's and RJ's for his writing.

 

Edit to add - I'm not talking about your criticisms exclusively here - at all. Other people have complained about Dark Rand and Hard Rand.

 

Hmm I never have seen the "destroyed" claim, that is a bit much obviously and I may have an inkling to who you are referring to. In regards to people mistaking the writing I think it is a bit overblown. The only scene I really recall that happening with was the ToG sequence that RJ wrote "most" of but still had elements of BS worked in. It is not something that happens often and the chapters such as Hinderstrap would never be confused with RJ's writing. People need to keep in mind RJ's written parts have turned out to be far less robust than what was previously thought.

 

As for the time issue the books were produced far too quickly. That can not be argued and it was a huge mistake. To my mind though it is the authors duty to say stop, this is not ready to publish. It needs more work and then take responsibility for getting it right. You can't just pass it up the line and say this is what you get(which is why the announcement of him being done before edits were finished and a beta reader had even seen AMoL was so shocking). Further many of the things Brandon shrugged off were things he claimed he could not do better than RJ and decided to not even try instead of working to get better. We know this for fact.

Look on this page - someone wrote "another thing destroyed by BS".

 

As for whose duty it was.... that's arguable. Sure, I can see the blame laid at BS's feet for that. But, seeing as he was hired by people to do a job and they gave him the time table, they have to take at least half of the blame. I've worked on jobs where myself or my boss (depending on the job) told those who hired us that we needed more time. They either gave in or didn't. If we stayed and they didn't give in, they got the best that could be given in the alloted time and not the best that could be given.

[Suttree]

Look on this page - someone wrote "another thing destroyed by BS".

 

and my guess was correct...

[yoniy0]

I think we've really gone round the bend if we're not even talking about BS's work anymore, but rather about those who speak about it. That being said, feel free to carry this on in one of the (many) threads dedicated to that issue, but please keep this one for talk of the actual chapter.

[Luckers]

Please respect Yoni's request and keep discussion on the subject of this chapter. That can be criticism or response to criticism, if its specific to the subject matter of the chapter.

 

There are threads for people to express their general like or dislike of Brandon's work on the Wheel, keep that, and discussion of it, there.

[Hyronimus]

It seems plausable that Avi will have revealed her vision of the future with the gathering at merrilor given that the clans are there. And has been said, this is a great reason for mat to head over to invite Tuon to the party.

 

If Avi also revealed that Tuon doesn't last as Emperess, which seems like an important detail for mat to notice, this could but him on guard against threats to Tuon and account for his reaction thatb she is threatened by Galgan. Indeed, in that case he would read far more into it then tipical high blood highjinx.

 

Considering the Petra thing, it just seems another example of the lands of the seanchan offering the greatest safety for common people, following on from the comment about the tinkers. I could hope for a bit of follow up, but then he's hardly a major character so...

 

I have a feeling we may see a lot of minor characters in passing, putting names to the normally faceless masses.

[Vardar]

Glad I'm not the only one wondering about Petra. I like the slain wife theory, adds something. (Although I think it would be a senseless death).

 

Considering the Petra thing, it just seems another example of the lands of the seanchan offering the greatest safety for common people, following on from the comment about the tinkers. I could hope for a bit of follow up, but then he's hardly a major character so...

 

 

 

I think we're more discussing the fact that he's a guard, not the location where they are. I can see them opening their inn in Seanchan lands, but not him soldiering. That's serious.

[GYLD]

I missed the slain wife theory, but it makes a certain amount of sense. Tylee was attacked by Trollocs only a day's march outside of Ebou Dar and if Luca did decide to return to the city, it seems very possible his menagerie could have had an encounter with Trollocs. Then assuming Petra's wife dies in the attack, I could see Petra enlisting as it would be the only means within reach to strike back at the Shadow.

[he who comes with a bong]

Maybee after him and his wife left the show they were waylaid by highway travellers so to say, wife gets killed in said fight Petra joins up with seanchan as way to get back at said bandits. Inn never got started.

 

Wife gets killed

[GYLD]

Ah, there it is. I would take it in a different direction though. As far as I recall, the Seanchan remain ignorant of Shadowspawn traveling through the Ways, which is presumably how they showed up so close to Ebou Dar in Tylee's brief encounter. If any more came through, travelers on the road would make a very tempting target for Trollocs.

 

The more I think about it though, I'm beginning to believe Petra enlisting might be another example of the pull that is drawing your every day men and women to the Last Battle. We've seen it with Renald Fanwar and many others. Few want to sit idly by while the Last Battle is fought. Unless apparently you're a cameo and are just too badass to care.

[Mulk]

It's not known whether the Seanchan know anything at all about the Ways. They've been gone from Randland for over a thousand years, and even in Randland that knowledge is not that far spread. An invention like the Ways was not necessary on their end of the World, as the Ogier never developed the Longing. None of the major cities outside of Tar Valon and the Borderlands even realize they still have a Waygate within and if they do, they no longer remember what it is for. They probably know even less (if that's possible) of the Portal Stones and we know the Shadow can use those as well.

 

I'd agree that seeing Petra in arms is likely a side effect of the general pull of the population toward service in the Last Battle. I'd love to see a viewpoint from someone currently in Seanchan to see if the sky and world are behaving the same way there, or if its distance from Randland offers it a bit of insulation. I'd guess not, but it would be interesting to see.

[Drawwod]

I loved it Mat's my favourite character and if that's just a taste of chaper 11 I can't wait to read the rest of it