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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Chapter 11


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But I'm starting to go against the Mat takes over Seanchan armies bit (discussed on the boards somewhere), the more I think about it, the more I think Mat's going to be at the bore with the others.

 

I guess the important part question is ... where will the Horn be needed? It's bond to Mat until he dies and the Horn must be used at the LB so he'll be there (I've heard some people suggest that Mat won't be there at all but this very point makes that seem highly unlikely) ... whether at the bore or in physical battle happening all around, again, depends on a few things with the Horn: where will it be used? for what purpose will it be used? has it already been used by the time they're dealing with the DO?

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But I'm starting to go against the Mat takes over Seanchan armies bit (discussed on the boards somewhere), the more I think about it, the more I think Mat's going to be at the bore with the others.

 

I guess the important part question is ... where will the Horn be needed? It's bond to Mat until he dies and the Horn must be used at the LB so he'll be there (I've heard some people suggest that Mat won't be there at all but this very point makes that seem highly unlikely) ... whether at the bore or in physical battle happening all around, again, depends on a few things with the Horn: where will it be used? for what purpose will it be used? has it already been used by the time they're dealing with the DO?

 

Good call with the Horn, could definately be needed at SG, can you think of a better army to defend you? Depending on how much the circumstances at Falme were the norm, I've read three different interpretations of Hawkwings speech, but mine is that the heroes need to follow the Dragon Reborn - Perrin needs to be there because of the banner... Until Rands plan became clear, that he's leaving the battles to the armies of the world and heading straight to SG it was open-ended as to where this would occur. For me it now has to be blown at SG.

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I apologize in advance if I miss something, like all my posts this is from my phone

Okay, I'm sorry for the length of this post, and for occationally repeating myself in it. I felt it important to explicitly address every claim as it's been made, instead of dealing in generalities. Also, please forgive the odd typo; I really need to go to bed.

 

I said he knows better which indicates I know he is far from stupid or retarded. Saying he stubbornly sticks to his views is not an attack, it is what is expected of people in a debate

Saying I knew better was patronizing, and in the rest of your post you did demean my arguments. The fact that you know I'm not all of these things doesn't mean you get to imply I am.

. Patronizing, maybe. Suggesting you are acting in a particular manner, yes. Saying that those actions are indicative of you as person, no. By saying you know better I am sayin you are not that type of person. It says you are not an example of any of the traits you were showing. If anything it is more of a compliment because I do not see you that way at all.

 

Which points did I not address?

You didn't address the fact that considering a piece of evidence immaterial and misunderstood is a far cry from being able to explain how it supports your position, and as such the assertion you've made that Suroth's PoV should be disregarded as 'a wash' is improper.

You didn't address the difference between there being social mobility and the means by which it's achieved. That is, the difference between is it possible to get promoted (such as Tylee was, for example, or even Suroth herself) and whether one goes against one's superiors in order to do so, which RJ very clearly didn't touch on.

You didn't address the fact that we're holding the BWB up as indicative because it's supported by additional evidence to the same effect. On the contrary, you're painting a picture of our nitpicking which parts of it to uphold and which parts to disregard based on our own convenience. You can explain away every piece of evidence we present, but you can't disregard how the presence of all of that evidence supports upholding the BWB in this case.

And, you didn't address the fact that Galgan's actions (as interpreted by Suroth, let's not forget) were performed in a vacuum, and as such don't imply anything of what he'd be expected to do normally.

In short, you've addressed nothing I've said.

if I understand correctly, you are saying there is a lot we do not know and if you interpret suroth's pov one way it backs up the bwb? My point was if you interpret her pov another way, it does not support the bwb. If it does not support tr bwb then we have nothing to say the bwb is correct in this instance because we have RJ quotes contradicting the lack of social mobility

 

The boldest part is important when it comes to understanding one of his quotes which I believe I'll touch on later in this post

 

Onwards, allow me to address what you're saying, so as not to respond in kind:

I had earlier mentioned how suroth clearly cares more about get own skin than the empire and other members posted in support.

 

That you have. Yes, Suroth is a coward. She's a despicable person. Galgan is much braver, that's certainly true. However, there's a distinction between what a coward considers doing on their own, and what they consider unthinkable, horrifying for anyone to do. That difference is why we apply her thoughts to the society at large. Well, that and the fact that it fits with others' behavior, such as the Blood gasping at the revelation of what she did, and Turak's refusal to blow the Horn, out of genuine adoration of the Empress.

we do not know turak had genuine adoration or not. We do not know if RJ changed his views on seanchan culture when the series was going to be more than 3 books. If you interpret what suroth thought, as she has on more than one occasion, the way I did then there is little to no proof for your side. That is our biggest reason why we are disagreeing

 

I mentioned that I do not count Fain as a reliable witness then because his powers were still developing.

 

You did at that. It wasn't any part of the 4-point argument I've made, but you did. I disagree, by the way, as I already said -- he was acting in his Mordeth persona, and while he still couldn't exute a killer-fog, he was very much the weasel Mordeth was by then (as apparent in the prologue of TDR). That, however, is a point I don't mind giving up -- as there isn't any way to know for sure. What we do know is that Turak refused to use the Horn.

he was using mordeth's name but the two had not fully merged at that point. The DO was still fighting for his control over his hound

 

We have only had a few views from the seanchan and some are in awe and others, like suroth, seem more self serving but only the ones in awe of the emperess are considered valid here.

 

No, you've simply presented no evidence of Seanchan not in awe of her. Again, Galgan's actions were performed in a void, where he believed Suroth was the only one he had to contend with. And again, that he might continue in that vein after Tuon was back is certainly believable, even that Tuon would expect it, but not the way she referred to it as if it's to be expected in normal days, nor the way the masses disregard his public flirtation with having her killed as a matter of norm.
if I understand correctly, your biggest issues with the passage are the acceptance of it by Tuon and the commoners. I agree, somewhat. Unless it was a very public farce, the common folk would know nothing of it, though their acceptance of it could be explained by the fact the this seanchan married a randlandier and she told him it is common. Remember, it was not the masses but two individuals. In wot the women can convince the men of anything. Regarding Tuon, this is a unique situation. There is no royal family but her. We know nothing of what succession might involve if the emperess were to suddenly trip and break her neck. We have no idea what would happen if she were barren and had no one in line to take over after her. Tuon has been emperess for a few weeks and there is no royal family. Maybe she expects it in times like this

 

The RJ quote OBVIOUSLY refers to social mobility through promotions/demotions and not regardinh subterfuge, but again that interpretation is being thrown out because it does not jive with interpretations people already made and the BWB seems to be an authority for this case when for others it is disregarded.

 

I honestly disagree. The way one gets promoted in Seanchan can have a lot to do with winning a power struggle, and I don't think RJ said anything to suggest he was excluding that. After all, you have to ask yourself, why did he make a point of putting the throne beyond such mobility? If one can be raised to the Imperial family, supposedly one can also be chosen as heir afterwards. Only RJ did put that out of the question.

as I molded above, you show RJ didn't give any info on power struggles or assassinations. That is exactly why I interpreted his quote the way I did AND why he excluded the CT as something you can be elevated to. If the CT does the elevating, they are not going to raise someone to the top. Because of pronoun confusion: if the president promotes someone they will not promote them to the position of president. RJ did not leave out heir to the CT so you can get within an assassination of ruling it all

 

Please accept my skepticism when it comes to people being receptive of ideas that are not theirs or admitting there is an alternative that COULD make sense.

You can doubt whatever you wish to, but I don't think I've given you any sign of not being open to persuation, and I resent the way you voice that skepticism. Go ahead and search my post history, if you want; you'll find I'm usually confidant in my opinions, but I never bulk at admitting fault when persuaded by others' arguments.

you are not the only poster on the forums and when I speak in generalities, I am not necessarily referring to you.

 

Nothing I said was not true nor was it something that should have offended because in an earlier post I mentioned I was doing some of that as well. The only difference is I noticed and acknowledged it. Pointing out flaws in someone's style of arguing is not always a strawman, sometimes it shows a flaw in the argument itself.

I beg to differ. What I previously bolded was untrue, and parts of it offensive. And while pointing out flaws needn't be done through straw-man arguments, what you did in this case is exactly that, as evident by the fact that I could go over my original post one sentence at a time and show how you've disregarded what I actually said.

then we agree to disagree. A lot of what you bolded was true, but probably not all of it

 

 

I do not have time to respond to what you said to sharaman so I won't

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I've always looked at Seanchan as the mix of Aiel and Cairhein. The Aiel are fierce and are driven by a belief ... even if most of the common folk don't fully understand it. The belief drives and unites them. The Cairhein are broken into all their separate houses and there is no real loyalty to anything outside of that ... and that mentally runs all the way down to anyone inside the walls. Nothing is "against the rules" ... even sending assassins to kidnap a lowly gleeman and kill anyone that may just happen to unfortunately be in their way.

 

The Seanchan people are driven by the ideal of the Return of Hawkwing's armies to the land that turned their back on them. Just like the Aiel, each man down to the lowest understands that and will fight to the death to see that belief become reality. However, just like the Cairhein, the upper ranks of the Seanchan society are publicly respectable to each other while privately always trying to find a way to get the upper hand on those ahead of them in order to the Crystal Throne. The key element is that the belief in Hawkwing's Return becomes somewhat lost on The Blood as they bicker and fight for rank. In the Aiel, the Clan Chiefs and Wise Ones never lose sight of what drives their people (darkfriends, being the obvious exception) and actually drive their belief home to their people in every action they do.

 

I've always seen them as RJ's way of saying: People who lose sight of their beliefs become corrupt and more prone to human failings. Those who cling strongly to their beliefs lead their people without fail and are to be respected.

 

I can only speak for myself, but I see the Aiel society as the best in Randland and the Cairhein as one of the worst. My feeling toward the Seanchan (and I assume the general thought) is that, while they provide such strong stability and order to even people they conquer, the upper ranks are almost despicable in the way they carry themselves, treat other people and especially how they treat themselves.

 

I would not put anything past The Blood that I wouldn't put past the Cairhein lords ... which isn't saying much.

 

This isn't based on exact moments or physical evidence as much as the general feeling I get from RJ's way he writes them.

 

The power of deeply rooted cultural institutions, mores, and norms was a recurrent theme for Jordan. It's why Wise Ones and Windfinders don't need the Three Oaths and Aes Sedai do. The Shaido were a case study in the deleterious effects on a society from a breakdown of those institutions, mores, and norms. Faile (I think) comments that Saldea is willing to accept a tyrant because of the importance of stability (with the explicit or implicit idea that the presence of the Blight changes the cost-benefit analysis). The Seanchan, evilness aside, are very effective because of their culture.

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The "thinness" in the Pattern near SG in relation to TAR has been much commented on in these boards. What seems to have escaped the same level of tension is what happens when the Horn is blown. We know the Heroes come from TAR. The descriptions of the action at the end of The Great Hunt suggest what happens is far different than the Heroes making a quick sojourn to the real world in the flesh. Reality is altered in the immediate vicinity, an effect perhaps a result of the barrier between the real world and TAR being "thinned." I think it's the only reasonable explanation for Rand and Ishmael's battle in the sky (I'm inclined to believe that these types of elements that we saw in the first couple books and never again are, rather than things Jordan dropped, keys to the final endgame). So yeah, I think Mat will be blowing the Horn at SG.

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Reading all the excerpts, I think I've been convinced that the assassination plot is screwy.

 

Mat's thoughts on Tylin are another matter. His thoughts on her were confused enough while it was happening (his only personal bootmaker...), and his thoughts (understandably) lurch as soon as he learns of her death in COT. Ch. 11 only shows a continued evolution of what he thinks happened.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I was reading through another thread on general board about Avi's walk through the pillars and started wondering about Tuon. In Avi's future Tuon disappears sometime in the next 20 years and the way things were phrased made me think she'd been assassinated and that preventing this was one of the ways in which to change the future (pretty sure she's said to be reasonable by the Aiel). So maybe in this future, Galgan assassinates Tuon and takes control? Maybe sometime between chapters 2 and 11 we see a meeting that involves Avi telling Rand of this future, Mat finding out about it, after all people are starting to know that he's married to Tuon and going to stop it. This then means Tuon and Mat survive to partake in the outrigger novels that were planned.

 

 

This doesn't explain the 'common persons' apparant okness with the assassination attempts, but if true suggests that the Galgan attempted assassination is a valid plot point and not just BS making a mistake on culture. If true, it's possible, though unlikely that Mat's tavereness stuff draws to him the 1 in 1000 people that can actually tell him what he needs to know.

 

This isn't a great explanation and I haven't spent much time working on it, but I haven't seen it before so I thought I'd see what people think.

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It does, but we're seeing a gradual escalation of Galgans attempts, initially he killed them, then sent people to fail. Maybe sometime in the future he sends them to succeed? The fact that Mat is trying to deal with it now doesn't change the fact that if he did nothing, maybe eventually, say 2 or 3 years down the line, something would kill her.

 

We don't have anywhere near enough information to speculate accurately as to why in Avi's future most of the current leadership is missing. But with Tuon, we have a mechanism in place that may eventually succeed.

 

 

 

At the moment it seems that the major problem is that someone trying to kill the Empress doesn't tie in with our/my current understanding of the Seanchan culture. But, their are several unique factors in this case - the Empress has already been assassinated, this sets a precedent. Tuon has not sat on the Crystal throne, which I think is a ter'angreal that inspires awe and belief in the 'god like nature' of the Empress. Their are no apparant heirs to the Empress, so we don't know how high that makes Galgan, he has some authority over the Randland Seanchan, before Tuon came back he was ready to declare himself Emperor, so he could well be the current heir.

We don't know how any of the above affect the Seanchan culture, but I think it would be stupid, to assume that they have no affect at all.

 

We know that sometime in the 20 years or so, likely sooner rather than later, Tuon goes missing, my interpretation at the time was that she'd been assassinated, and BS is apparantly either giving us a precedent that people try to assassinate the Empress, so that if the books were to continue it wouldn't come as a complete shock, or the mechanism by which it eventually happens.

 

 

 

One of the things I always thought RJ was trying to do was build a world that had a future after TG, otherwise the whole Avi Rhuidean thing, no matter how well written, was a waste of space, since it was one of the things that RJ spent time on(?) then it's important. Maybe one reason it's important is that it sets up a future where Tuon is missing (consider that we've known for a while that he had outrigger novels planned that involved Mat and Tuon). This then sets up the assassination attempt, allows Mat to maybe command the Seanchan armies, maybe brings the Seanchan to TG...

 

Or it has nothing to do with anything, and none of it has anything to do with the quality of the writing or the characterisation problems with Mat, but I prefer a scenario where the story works to one where it doesn't...

 

I guess we'll rafo.

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Well, a couple of things. For one, Aviendha's Rhuidean adventure was Brandon's doing, as far as I know. For another, the fact that we know Tuon and Mat are set to attempt recovering the Seanchan continent suggests a more likely method of her disappearing, I think. To put it differently, Galgan can't possibly assassinate her before that, or at least not according to RJ's plan (which, by the way, Brandon was given creative license to change).

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As to the first I accept your better wisdom.

 

As to the second, with travelling, disappearing off to Seanchan to reclaim the Emperor doesn't mean much any more. She can rule Randland from Seanchan and would if she could, but if Tuon survives (in Avis future) and is alive for all this, then where's Mat? For me the more likely explanation is that Tuon is assassinated and then Mat leaves the Seanchan empire as he has no reason to stay.

 

But the argument I'm making is that Avi sees a future where Tuon is assassinated early on. Mat going to Ebou Dar and preventing said assasination opens the world up to those outrigger novels. (I'm not saying that Tuon still gets assassinated, just that in the future Avi sees she is).

 

If (stresses 'if' to the point of breaking) it did turn out like that, then it's actually a pretty good plotline.

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But I'm starting to go against the Mat takes over Seanchan armies bit (discussed on the boards somewhere), the more I think about it, the more I think Mat's going to be at the bore with the others.

 

There's also the matter of the three ta'veren. At some point they have to meet: to do what exactly, I'm not sure, but I suspect they may be a catalyst, influencing the course of the entire LB.

 

I guess the important part question is ... where will the Horn be needed? It's bond to Mat until he dies and the Horn must be used at the LB so he'll be there (I've heard some people suggest that Mat won't be there at all but this very point makes that seem highly unlikely) ... whether at the bore or in physical battle happening all around, again, depends on a few things with the Horn: where will it be used? for what purpose will it be used? has it already been used by the time they're dealing with the DO?

 

I'd really like to see the Heroes ride out of T'A'R at Tarwin's Gap and come to the aid of the Malkieri army..

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But I'm starting to go against the Mat takes over Seanchan armies bit (discussed on the boards somewhere), the more I think about it, the more I think Mat's going to be at the bore with the others.

 

There's also the matter of the three ta'veren. At some point they have to meet: to do what exactly, I'm not sure, but I suspect they may be a catalyst, influencing the course of the entire LB.

 

Yup, fireflies - although I'm still not certain if this viewing refers to those present at the bore, or just to people important in the fight in general. I want to say the former, because the fireflies get stronger the closer they are to Rand, but it's difficult to see Eg/Elayne/Mat/Perrin (so most of them) at the bore - they all have armies to lead in the other fight.

 

I guess the important part question is ... where will the Horn be needed? It's bond to Mat until he dies and the Horn must be used at the LB so he'll be there (I've heard some people suggest that Mat won't be there at all but this very point makes that seem highly unlikely) ... whether at the bore or in physical battle happening all around, again, depends on a few things with the Horn: where will it be used? for what purpose will it be used? has it already been used by the time they're dealing with the DO?

 

I'd really like to see the Heroes ride out of T'A'R at Tarwin's Gap and come to the aid of the Malkieri army..

 

That would be cool. I just read somewhere on this board that Lan is probably going to survive Tarwins Gap, because of Mins viewing of a baby in a cradle.

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