Why I love (I mean hate) the books

[XoMeltdownoX]

[Removed - yoniy0]

[Wool-headed lummox]

Did you seriously just call me of all people a fan boy?

Trying to substitute secondary material (fanfics, forum discussions, adaptations, interviews) with the original text of the novel is a fanboy's favorite logical fallacy. People guessed Graendal was the killer before ToM? Kudos to them - Jordan doesn't get credit for that. Revealing Asmodean's killer is what he should have done, preferably in the same book as the murder. Unless there's a reason following from the logic of the plot why the readers shouldn't know about this, which there isn't. If you're not a fanboy, don't act like one.

 

you come off as slightly unhinged and very upset

You're mistaken, I'm very unhinged and slightly upset.

[yoniy0]

While critiquing RJ's (and Brandon's, from the looks of it) work may be unpleasant to hear for some of us, we will never forbid it, as long as the arguments remain as to the merit of their work as opposed to the personal traits.

 

You are expected to deal with such criticism in an adult manner; see to it that you do (if I didn't make myself clear, resorting to name-calling doesn't qualify).

 

EDIT:

I've locked this thread for the next 30 minutes, to give everyone the opportunity to read this post. Don't worry, it's not closed for good.

[Suttree]

Did you seriously just call me of all people a fan boy?

Trying to substitute secondary material (fanfics, forum discussions, adaptations, interviews) with the original text of the novel is a fanboy's favorite logical fallacy. People guessed Graendal was the killer before ToM? Kudos to them - Jordan doesn't get credit for that. Revealing Asmodean's killer is what he should have done, preferably in the same book as the murder. Unless there's a reason following from the logic of the plot why the readers shouldn't know about this, which there isn't. If you're not a fanboy, don't act like one.

 

you come off as slightly unhinged and very upset

You're mistaken, I'm very unhinged and slightly upset.

 

1. When did I try to substitute anything? Many people deduced her killer from the text as there was enough information and hints sprinkled in to figure it out. I was using the sherlock holmes piece as evidence of someone who had been spot on in doing so.

 

2. I have never, ever acted as a fanboy and anyone that knows me here or at TL can attest to that.

 

[Removed - yoniy0]

[yoniy0]

I did my best to separate instructions I make as a moderator of these boards from my opinions on what's being said. Off to the second part, then:

 

Wool-headed lummox, you seem to have read every last WoT book. Why is that, if you became disillusioned as early as TFoH? Can you honestly find nothing worth reading in them?

BTW I can't speak for Suttree, but I'd assume he meant to say that RJ included sufficient details in the book for someone to deduce the correct culprit, and for many others to recognize the validity of that person's arguments. In addition, the confirmation wasn't done by RJ, mind you, but even still -- there was confirmation enough in ToM itself, glossary or no glossary.

[Wool-headed lummox]

Many people deduced her killer from the text as there was enough information and hints sprinkled in to figure it out

 

I can't speak for Suttree, but I'd assume he meant to say that RJ included sufficient details in the book for someone to deduce the correct culprit

The point is, we shouldn't have to deduce. Asmodean played a fairly important role in Fires of Heaven, being a source of AoL information for Rand, and was actually a pleasant diversion from template *handsome muscular stoic superhero* vs *handsome muscular depraved child-eating supervillain* antagonism, and seemed to have a bit of a personality and a personal tragedy that made sense. Certainly more important than random general Sternly McBoring musing about his dear wife and plate of steamed turnips as he moves his troops for that one battle seventeen books later. Suddenly, Asmodean is offed and almost never mentioned again, and his killer - a secret to the reader. There should have been a better resolution to his plotline, other than "he opened a door looking for some wine - OH GOD IT'S YOU - and death took him".

 

An important fact obscured - for no good reason, we now know, other than to create an illusion of a mystery. Graendal didn't even have any good reason to be in the royal palace of Caemlyn at that point, according to the fanfic which Jordan said was correct - she simply randomly bumped into him while looking for Rahvin. This is what the author couldn't tell us for ten books?

 

RJ included sufficient details in the book for someone to deduce the correct culprit

I don't believe he did. The fanfic was a lengthy and remarkably extensive analysis of opportunities and motives, something a reader shouldn't resort to in order to make sense of an important plot point. The hints provided in ToM, on the other hand, were more than sufficient to place the blame squarely on Graendal without saying Asmodean's name outright. Had this been included much earlier in the series, I would have had no complaints.

 

Wool-headed lummox, you seem to have read every last WoT book. Why is that, if you became disillusioned as early as TFoH?

I weren't disillusioned at Fires of Heaven, I assumed that we're in for a shocking revelation on Asmodean's killer. Why else would he end the scene on such a cryptic note, I thought.

 

Can you honestly find nothing worth reading in them?

There are parts which genuinely captivate my attention making me swallow chapter after chapter without noticing, and entire sections which are completely impossible to read due to lacking anything but soap-opera level romantic intrigues, uninteresting and unsympathetic heroes, reminiscing about events we already read, angsting over highly detached and made-up issues (Rand bemoaning all the women who "died for him" is one of the more ridiculous - and sexist - angst scenes I've read) and tons of filler. You know, woolen dresses, stout shoes, cocked eyebrows, full bosoms, female-on-female bondage, veiled threats, steel blades wrapped in silk only without the silk, wool-headed lummoxes, etc. This problem was partially solved since Sanderson took over, making TGS and ToM feel like two gulps of fresh cool water after stale, murky swamp goo.

[Suttree]

The point is, we shouldn't have to deduce.

 

Meh depends on what you prefer in your literature. I tend to like deeply layered stories with subtle hints and forshadowing. Other authors have a propensity to not trust the reader to figure things out so they hit us over the head with every detail and plan of action before it happens.

 

. This problem was partially solved since Sanderson took over, making TGS and ToM feel like two gulps of fresh cool water after stale, murky swamp goo.

 

I think it would be more accurate to say the problem was solved by where we are in the story arc. RJ wrote the outline and the set up books were finsished as of CoT. We saw he was heading in the right direction with KoD in picking up the pace for things to be wrapped up. The issues with BS's struggles as an author have been well documented elsewhere so I won't touch on them. The main point being the problem with TGS and ToM to my mind is we have a great deal of fan gratification but very little polish and quality writing. Hence the two don't hold up well in subsequent re-reads. Team Jordan said they are changing their process to address the issues because they have to get the last book "right". Fingers crossed AMoL is the best of the bunch.

[roocifer]

Still can't decide if Wool-headed lummox is trolling or not...

 

 

Don't know why anyone would join a forum about something they seem to dislike so much just so they can bash it

[Clouded]

One of my favorite parts of these books is trying to determine what is going to happen or how something happened. I remember when I first started the series, whenever a prophecy was listed, I would make a list of theories as to how it could be fulfilled. That is the whole point of prophecies, to offer some mysterious hint for the future.

[Morsker]

Still can't decide if Wool-headed lummox is trolling or not...

 

Don't know why anyone would join a forum about something they seem to dislike so much just so they can bash it

I feel the same way he does, and so do an awful lot of people. We just find silence the most polite form of expression, most of the time.

 

I read the books because many of the scenes have a warm, engaging feeling because RJ is so good at PoV. He's also very good at presenting completely fantastic things, like channeling or mythological parallels, in a way that makes them feel contemporary and normal to the characters in their PoV. But there's a huge amount of sadomasochism and cruelty in the story, which I don't enjoy at all.

 

Anyway if we're talking about other authors, Roger Zelazney is one of my favorites. There's actually a lot of Fantasy out there that doesn't read like a Tolkein ripoff. It's partly Tolkein fandom that tells us otherwise, and partly publishers who hype the Tolkeinesque stuff because they think it will sell better. (Dungeons and Dragons for example only added elves and hobbits and ents to make Tolkein fans buy it; it was done to play to the crowd, not due to lack of originality.)

[yoniy0]

Morsker, it isn't about loving everything in it, it's recognizing that other people enjoy different things than you do. If parts you object to are somebody else's favorites, then it's not something that's wrong with the series. Just that not everything in it is for you.

 

Anyhow... back to the original question: this won't take anyone years, and she's hardly cutting-edge, but I find Ursula K. Le Guin's Earthsea very enjoyable, even for an adult.

[thisguy]

Morsker, it isn't about loving everything in it, it's recognizing that other people enjoy different things than you do. If parts you object to are somebody else's favorites, then it's not something that's wrong with the series. Just that not everything in it is for you.

 

Anyhow... back to the original question: this won't take anyone years, and she's hardly cutting-edge, but I find Ursula K. Le Guin's Earthsea very enjoyable, even for an adult.

Those were good books. I read them twice years ago. Had a very dream-like quality to them. I haven't read anything else by her.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Good pick Morsker. Zelazny is one of my favourites.

[thisguy]

Oh! You want a great fantasy novel without elves and dwarves and whatever - Stephen Brust "To Reign in Hell."

 

Awesome stuff.

[UncleButcher1980]

Anyhow... back to the original question: this won't take anyone years, and she's hardly cutting-edge, but I find Ursula K. Le Guin's Earthsea very enjoyable, even for an adult.

 

Still one of my favourite series.

[Suttree]

Oh! You want a great fantasy novel without elves and dwarves and whatever - Stephen Brust "To Reign in Hell."

 

Awesome stuff.

 

Is that the guy that had books about an assasin or summat like that? Remember reading one vaguely when I was a kid...

[thisguy]

Oh! You want a great fantasy novel without elves and dwarves and whatever - Stephen Brust "To Reign in Hell."

 

Awesome stuff.

 

Is that the guy that had books about an assasin or summat like that? Remember reading one vaguely when I was a kid...

He may have. To Reign is the only book I've read of his and it has nothing to do with assassins. It's short and sweet. Check it out. :)

[Suttree]

Oh! You want a great fantasy novel without elves and dwarves and whatever - Stephen Brust "To Reign in Hell."

 

Awesome stuff.

 

Is that the guy that had books about an assasin or summat like that? Remember reading one vaguely when I was a kid...

He may have. To Reign is the only book I've read of his and it has nothing to do with assassins. It's short and sweet. Check it out. :)

 

Thanks for the tip!

[Terez]

That is a typical fanboy response which does not address the issue. The author isn't responsible for the fans guessing or writing deductive fanfics, the author is responsible for his series. His series left a very important fact undisclosed for ten books, for no good reason.

 

It wasn't that important. It never occurred to me to care who killed him until I joined the fan forums, and many other fans felt the same (including Brandon). There was a faction at Theoryland called Apathy for Asmodean's Killer because we couldn't understand why people cared so much. There were far more interesting things to discuss.

[Knivy]

I was about to suggest the Otherland series when I remembered it was by Tad Williams. I definitely recommend his books, as well as those of Brent Weeks and BS. Another series I suggest is the Kingkiller Chronicles. This one will be frustrating as there are only two books out at the present, and the final one isn't scheduled to be released until 2014, but I enjoy it.

[Durinax]

I quite enjoyed the pit dragon trilogy

[mike hunt's here]

I loved the 1st and 2nd Earthsea books, but from 3 to whenever...it just didnt work for me. too much brain thinking there for a "young adult" book for me.

 

Susan Coopers dark is rising was cool when I was 12.

 

Malazan is very confusing to me. I think I re-read those books about 5 times each before I figured out who was who...and not to give any spoilers, but it made me really mad that my favorite character and probably who I thought was the main person only had a few lines in the later books...ganoes paran.

 

I for one - not to beat a dead horse or whatever the saying is - agree somewhat about the comment made about RJ's writing skill, but really didnt notice it as I read the stories the first few times. When it was pointed out to me, then I went "oh yeah, i guess so..." but its still an entertaining story, regardless of how many holes it has. Some people like swiss cheese right?

 

some I would recommend, sorry if I dont have the exact names, im doing this from memory

 

Melanie Rawn - sun runner something. I think its 6 books.

joe abercrombie - sorry totally forgot the name of these books.

jim butcher - the dresden files. not fantasy, but a modern aged wizard in chicago.

some guy - the painted man. there are three books...only the first two are worth reading. 3rd book gets weird. or was it called the warded man? ugh.

[shortkut]

That is a typical fanboy response which does not address the issue. The author isn't responsible for the fans guessing or writing deductive fanfics, the author is responsible for his series. His series left a very important fact undisclosed for ten books, for no good reason.

 

It wasn't that important. It never occurred to me to care who killed him until I joined the fan forums, and many other fans felt the same (including Brandon). There was a faction at Theoryland called Apathy for Asmodean's Killer because we couldn't understand why people cared so much. There were far more interesting things to discuss.

especially when the answeradds nothing to the story or plot. in fact it adds more questions

[Terez]

Right, part of why I never cared who killed him is because it seemed almost certain he was killed by another Darkfriend, which is just boring. Who cares? Darkfriends kill each other all the time; there's nothing inherently exciting about that. Toward the end I argued for Aviendha killing him because it was more interesting than Graendal and more believable than most of the other candidates. I never believed it was true, but it was fun to argue because there were some good lines for every objection you could think of to the theory. Convenient random plot details that built a convincing case for her. The biggest roadblock was the "You? No!" thing, and even that was not an iron-clad objection.

[YourNewDragonAndGod]

Anything by Guy Gavriel Kay is good. Particularly "the summer tree" trilogy