Taim...

[Morden]

Does anyone else think that he might be a new Forsaken?

 

We know from the earlier books that there were never just 13 of them, cant remember the exact number off the top of my head, but to me it makes a certain amount of sense. I see Taim to be similar to Demandred...

 

He's jealous of Rand in the same way that Demandred was jealous of Lews Therin. Taim wanted to be the Dragon Reborn, he wanted glory, power and fame.. Maybe he decided to swear to the dark one?

 

Bear in mind that Taim is strong, almost as strong as Rand, which puts him fairly equal to many of the Forsaken. And remember to discount the Black Ajah because they are weak. Almost all Aes Sedai are weak compared to the Forsaken, but the male channelers seem to have avoided the dwindling weakening of the power.

 

So yeah, I think that he is a new member of the Forsaken, not that he is working for one.

[TristanWebb]

You can't be a Forsaken or Chosen as the are the names given to channelers for the Shadow in the AoL. He is a Dreadlord almost certainly, but by definition he can't be Chosen/Forsaken.

[Morden]

they were given their forsaken names by the rest of humanity, but thats not what made them Chosen, it was the DO who placed them highest on the Darkside's leadership. To me he is on equal power to most of the current Forsaken, the guys who he has turned are almost undoubtedly Dreadlords just as the Black Ajah are. But the DO seems to favour results and has a fondness for people who have great greed and ambition. With so many of the Chosen lost, I dont see why he wouldnt want to replenish their ranks.

 

But perhaps your right, I just think that it would be a colossal waste on the DO's part.

[Vardar]

Does anyone else think that he might be a new Forsaken?

 

We know from the earlier books that there were never just 13 of them, cant remember the exact number off the top of my head, but to me it makes a certain amount of sense. I see Taim to be similar to Demandred...

 

He's jealous of Rand in the same way that Demandred was jealous of Lews Therin. Taim wanted to be the Dragon Reborn, he wanted glory, power and fame.. Maybe he decided to swear to the dark one?

 

Bear in mind that Taim is strong, almost as strong as Rand, which puts him fairly equal to many of the Forsaken. And remember to discount the Black Ajah because they are weak. Almost all Aes Sedai are weak compared to the Forsaken, but the male channelers seem to have avoided the dwindling weakening of the power.

 

So yeah, I think that he is a new member of the Forsaken, not that he is working for one.

Does anyone else think that he might be a new Forsaken?

 

We know from the earlier books that there were never just 13 of them, cant remember the exact number off the top of my head, but to me it makes a certain amount of sense. I see Taim to be similar to Demandred...

 

He's jealous of Rand in the same way that Demandred was jealous of Lews Therin. Taim wanted to be the Dragon Reborn, he wanted glory, power and fame.. Maybe he decided to swear to the dark one?

 

Bear in mind that Taim is strong, almost as strong as Rand, which puts him fairly equal to many of the Forsaken. And remember to discount the Black Ajah because they are weak. Almost all Aes Sedai are weak compared to the Forsaken, but the male channelers seem to have avoided the dwindling weakening of the power.

 

So yeah, I think that he is a new member of the Forsaken, not that he is working for one.

 

Actually Taim is weaker than Logain, who's weaker than Rand. He's still strong however.

[Ashaman Kovan]

I think there are plenty, and plenty, of threads on this topic already. Search function folks : ] Just sayin.

[Neophyte]

I thought for a long time that he was a new member of the Chosen. Certainly he carries himself like one. And until ToM, I hadn't seen any real contraindications. But Egwene's Dream in ToM ch. 3 seems to represent the current state of the Forsaken - and it indicates that 6 of the 13 survive. We had Lanfear, Moghedien, Semirhage, Graendal, Mesaana, Ishamael, Aginor, Balthamel, Be'lal, Sammael, Rahvin, Asmodean, and Demandred. Of those, Be'lal, Sammael, Semirhage, Rahvin, and Asmodean were killed in an apparently permanent way. Ishamael, Aginor, and Balthamel were recycled as Moridin, Osan'gar, and Aran'gar respectively - Aginor/Osan'gar and Balthamel/Aran'gar have since been killed again, permanently one presumes. This leaves six surviving Forsaken at the time of Egwene's Dream: Moridin, Lanfear/Cyndane, Moghedien, Graendal, Mesaana, and Demandred.

 

Since, in her dream, she saw 13 towers shaking around, with some crumbling and then rising again, and one of the crumbled ones rising highest of all, it seems pretty clear that the dream represents the state of the Chosen - starting with 13, only six now survive, with Moridin (formerly dead) rising to the office of Nae'blis. Since we know of six surviving Chosen from the original 13, there's no space in there for Taim - no brand new towers arose.

 

This is not, of course, definitive. One could argue that the dream only concerned the original 13 Forsaken, and so Taim wouldn't be in it even is he has been raised. I can't deny that possibility, though at this point, it is unlikely in my opinion. After all, the Dream indicated a great deal information of which Egwene is not currently aware - why wouldn't it indicate Taim's inclusion into the Chosen as well, assuming it had happened? I personally think it would be ... inelegant ... for Sanderson to subvert Dreaming for the purposes of making a red herring. But that is just my opinion.

 

I think of Taim, now, as something between Darkfriend and Chosen - I'm sure he has a grandiose title for himself in his head, like "First Lord of the Dreadlords" or some such. He seems to like titles *cough* M'hael *cough*.

 

But I don't think he has been given, for example, the famous Chosen Mark. He may, however, have a version of his own, like Alviarin (I'm not saying that he has the same type of mark as Alviarin, just that he may have his own unique kind of mark, like Alviarin does).

[Neophyte]

accidental double post - mods may feel free to delete

[Wool-headed lummox]

I don't see any point for the Dark One to suddenly up and raise Taim to the position of Chosen, considering how close the Last Battle and the destruction of all things are. In a matter of months, if not weeks, the Dark One will either be sealed and cut off from the world until the next turning of the Wheel, or succeed in destroying all that exists forever. Will giving Taim a new title somehow make him more efficient to the Shadow? Would that title even mean much, considering how few Forsaken remain alive?

 

Moridin is Naeblis and above all by default;

Demandred seems to be doing well and good;

Lanfear-Cyndane and Moghedien are lessened in status and mind-trapped, made Moridin's personal slaves

Graendal is likely to join them for her continued failures and the deaths among Forsaken she caused;

Mesaana is mind-destroyed and in Egwene's custody, highly unlikely to play any further role in the series.

 

All in all, naming Taim Chosen would only serve to place him on equal footing with Demandred. He's already the leader of male Dreadlords (at least, the Ashaman crop, in case the Shadow has any others), and probably much more in favor with the Dark One than Alviarin, leader of the Black Ajah (if she even retained this position), who has had only failures ever since being sacked as Elaida's Keeper, had about 40% of her group executed by Egwene, and is currently in hiding never to return to the White Tower.

 

Considering Taim's successful strategy of secretly recruiting male Dreadlords in the middle of Rand's own training grounds while ruling formally in the Dragon's name, and further bolstering the Shadow's forces by using the 13x13 trick on Aes Sedai in the Black Tower grounds, I'd say he's already near the top of the Darkfriend hierarchy. Naming him Chosen would only serve to discourage/irritate the existing Forsaken, and fail to reap any tangible benefit to anyone but Taim's own ego.

[Lisa Campbell]

Naming him Chosen would give him the authority to order Shadowspawn and DF's he does not already control. No small feat although I don't know if it will play a part.

[thisguy]

He can be a forsaken if he's one of them in disguise, otherwise he's just a high level servant of the DO.

[bcspeer]

He could've been a male channeler for the Shadow in the AoL and was somehow trapped in a stasis box and let free by Ishy and told to proclaim himself as the DR. That would cover his 2nd age speech (so-called Aiel) and also how he knows the test to find male channelers.

[thisguy]

He could've been a male channeler for the Shadow in the AoL and was somehow trapped in a stasis box and let free by Ishy and told to proclaim himself as the DR. That would cover his 2nd age speech (so-called Aiel) and also how he knows the test to find male channelers.

That's true. It can also be that he's a powerful male channeler who gave himself to the DO and was trained because he did.

[Matrim-Bloody-Cauthon]

The most obvious reason Taim is somehow marked by the DO is that he hasnt gone mad and by all accounts has been channeling a long time. So the question is, does the DO offer that protection to all DF channelers, or only the chosen? Remember when Rand severed Asmodean's link to the DO he said he was vulnerable to the taint now. This would imply Taim is indeed very high ranking, possibly even as high as the Chosen, since he would seem to me to be obviously protected from the taint.

[Suttree]

The most obvious reason Taim is somehow marked by the DO is that he hasnt gone mad and by all accounts has been channeling a long time. So the question is, does the DO offer that protection to all DF channelers, or only the chosen? Remember when Rand severed Asmodean's link to the DO he said he was vulnerable to the taint now. This would imply Taim is indeed very high ranking, possibly even as high as the Chosen, since he would seem to me to be obviously protected from the taint.

 

He has been channeling for some time but not quite as long as some think. Don't forget Rand was wrong about his age and Taim is actually in his twenties...

 

Robert Jordan

 

For Linda Sedai, Rand misjudges Taim's age because when they meet, you might say Taim has been rode hard and put away wet. He has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn, the one place where he might find refuge instead of being hunted—along with other reasons—and that has a wearing effect on anyone. Now that he has recovered, he doesn't look so old.

[thisguy]

The most obvious reason Taim is somehow marked by the DO is that he hasnt gone mad and by all accounts has been channeling a long time. So the question is, does the DO offer that protection to all DF channelers, or only the chosen? Remember when Rand severed Asmodean's link to the DO he said he was vulnerable to the taint now. This would imply Taim is indeed very high ranking, possibly even as high as the Chosen, since he would seem to me to be obviously protected from the taint.

 

That's good reasoning. I think any man (or woman) with is power would probably be fairly high on the DO's list of servants. Plus, he's been put there to get as many Ashamen on the DO's side as possible and to bring the stones from Shayol Ghul to build his palace. He's definitely a high level baddie.

[thisguy]

The most obvious reason Taim is somehow marked by the DO is that he hasnt gone mad and by all accounts has been channeling a long time. So the question is, does the DO offer that protection to all DF channelers, or only the chosen? Remember when Rand severed Asmodean's link to the DO he said he was vulnerable to the taint now. This would imply Taim is indeed very high ranking, possibly even as high as the Chosen, since he would seem to me to be obviously protected from the taint.

 

He has been channeling for some time but not quite as long as some think. Don't forget Rand was wrong about his age and Taim is actually in his twenties...

 

Robert Jordan

 

For Linda Sedai, Rand misjudges Taim's age because when they meet, you might say Taim has been rode hard and put away wet. He has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn, the one place where he might find refuge instead of being hunted—along with other reasons—and that has a wearing effect on anyone. Now that he has recovered, he doesn't look so old.

 

That might be true but since he was one of the final False Dragons, he's been channeling at least as long as Rand has and Rand was going mental for a while.

[Suttree]

The most obvious reason Taim is somehow marked by the DO is that he hasnt gone mad and by all accounts has been channeling a long time. So the question is, does the DO offer that protection to all DF channelers, or only the chosen? Remember when Rand severed Asmodean's link to the DO he said he was vulnerable to the taint now. This would imply Taim is indeed very high ranking, possibly even as high as the Chosen, since he would seem to me to be obviously protected from the taint.

 

He has been channeling for some time but not quite as long as some think. Don't forget Rand was wrong about his age and Taim is actually in his twenties...

 

Robert Jordan

 

For Linda Sedai, Rand misjudges Taim's age because when they meet, you might say Taim has been rode hard and put away wet. He has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn, the one place where he might find refuge instead of being hunted—along with other reasons—and that has a wearing effect on anyone. Now that he has recovered, he doesn't look so old.

 

That might be true but since he was one of the final False Dragons, he's been channeling at least as long as Rand has and Rand was going mental for a while.

 

Oh I'm not disputing the fact that hemost likely has protection. We know there is no set time on the taint starting however so comparing him to Rand(Taim has actually channeled a fair amount longer) doesn't help all that much. Was just pointing out that most think he is in his mid thirties and that is incorrect. It is feasible that the taint has not taken hold even w/o protection based on the time frame.

[Matrim-Bloody-Cauthon]

The most obvious reason Taim is somehow marked by the DO is that he hasnt gone mad and by all accounts has been channeling a long time. So the question is, does the DO offer that protection to all DF channelers, or only the chosen? Remember when Rand severed Asmodean's link to the DO he said he was vulnerable to the taint now. This would imply Taim is indeed very high ranking, possibly even as high as the Chosen, since he would seem to me to be obviously protected from the taint.

 

He has been channeling for some time but not quite as long as some think. Don't forget Rand was wrong about his age and Taim is actually in his twenties...

 

Robert Jordan

 

For Linda Sedai, Rand misjudges Taim's age because when they meet, you might say Taim has been rode hard and put away wet. He has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn, the one place where he might find refuge instead of being hunted—along with other reasons—and that has a wearing effect on anyone. Now that he has recovered, he doesn't look so old.

Ah I thought he was older then that. But i would still say he seems to be protected from the taint. Most of the Asha'man display signs of the taint in some small way or other, yet Taim seems totaly clean of any madness. I still stand by my theory though i do admit i thought hed been channeling much longer then that.

[bcspeer]

If Taim isn't a DF and that's a big if, it could be argued that Rand needed someone to train male channelers and him being ta'veren forced the Pattern to keep Taim sane for Rand to use. But in my opinion, Taim is a DF and a pretty high ranking one

[Matrim-Bloody-Cauthon]

If Taim isn't a DF and that's a big if, it could be argued that Rand needed someone to train male channelers and him being ta'veren forced the Pattern to keep Taim sane for Rand to use. But in my opinion, Taim is a DF and a pretty high ranking one

If Taim turns out to be a good guy it would probably be the biggest shock of the whole series. I have to doubt it though, i would say "you know the old saying, let the lord of chaos rule" pretty much settled that.

[bcspeer]

If Taim turned out to be a good guy, it would probably be a bigger shock than who Demandred really is because we've accepted Taim being a DF as fact. But I would have to agree that lord of chaos thing kinda revealed his true allegiance especially since the DO gave the order to 'let the lord of chaos rule'

[BNICK1026]

Does anyone recall if they mention how many Ashaman are actually in Taim's special school? I thought I had read someone's post saying it was like 50(ish)? If thats the case then his numbers are really not that great compared to how many are at the tower because I thought at some point Taim stated their recruiting would have them on par with the White Tower within the year? So we are talking about hundreds of Ashaman. Rand even offers Intralude(Spelling) 100 ashaman to help him defend Saldaea when he and Narishma first drop him off.

[Luckers]

Does anyone recall if they mention how many Ashaman are actually in Taim's special school? I thought I had read someone's post saying it was like 50(ish)? If thats the case then his numbers are really not that great compared to how many are at the tower because I thought at some point Taim stated their recruiting would have them on par with the White Tower within the year? So we are talking about hundreds of Ashaman. Rand even offers Intralude(Spelling) 100 ashaman to help him defend Saldaea when he and Narishma first drop him off.

 

It's been steadily increasing. In (I believe CoT) it's around 50. But the end of KoD it's around 100. We don't know where its at now.

[Luckers]

You can't be a Forsaken or Chosen as the are the names given to channelers for the Shadow in the AoL. He is a Dreadlord almost certainly, but by definition he can't be Chosen/Forsaken.

 

He potentially could, actually. The reason the Dreadlords in the Trolloc Wars did not assume the title Chosen was because thay were too afraid to take that liberty. However if the Dark One chose to grant Taim or any Third Ager the Chosen Mark, they would have the right to claim the title even though they are not born to the Age of Legends, especially since it was that act of choice by the Dark One from which the name originally stemmed.

[JakeBarnes]

Wouldn't they have to go to Shayol Ghul to get the mark?