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How Rand Dies And Comes Back To Life


thisguy
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Just a theory and I doubt it's the right one, but what do you think?

 

So, the Aelfin said Rand has to die to survive the last battle. So, Rand dies before the last battles somehow. The last battle comes, Mat sounds the horn, Rand comes back as a hero (I know he's not a hero of legend really...) and then he gets pulled out just like Brigette did. Too farfetched?

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Rand may, in fact, be a Hero of the Horn. Due to Artur Hawkwing and Co recognizing him as Lews Therin. They seemed to know him well. It could be that since Rand now has memories of all his lives, his POVs could shed some light on the Horn and Heroes and his own connection to it. Hmm, memories...light. ScratchHead.gif

 

 

Edit: Got a little sidetracked by that turn of phrase.

 

Rand: "How can I win the Last Battle and survive?"

Aelfinn: "The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. To live, you must die."

 

Killed by Death himself, Moridin while Rand is captive or pawn in accordance with the prophecy (yeah, I used that line) of the Shadow. His death, or "blood" is needed for victory by both sides.

 

Rebirth/resurrection: Nynaeve, with help from Elayne, Min and Aviendha. Foreshadowings, Foretellings, Min's visions. He may be dead for 3 days and working on sealing the Bore from within TAR. Ripped out of TAR like Birgitte, most likely. Whole and unmaimed, maybe.

Edited by SkyFire
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I've always liked the concept of him being ripped out of TAR 3 days after his death (including being consumed by Midnight Towers and Alivia's help, perhaps to avoid getting 13x13d) in the battle of Caemlyn / the BT.

 

Nevertheless, I've always found the "to live you must die" part unclear - does it really indicate surviving the LB? Or maybe some other surival? Rand didn't say "how can I win the LB and survive it", therefore the Aelfinn could treat those 2 issues separately, i.e. winning the LB and survival. On the other hand, that would make 2 questions in 1. Maybe it doesn't make any sense or is splitting hairs, but I'm just uneasy.

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Gwen I'm with you on thinking survival doesn't necessarily equate to staying alive in the WOT world.

 

I also jumped to the conclusion (like a lot of people) on the idea of the ripping out from TAR, which is why I think it will be different as it is too obvious. I just can't think of how else, which is the question at hand.

 

Edited to be clearer

Edited by YouMayCallMeElci
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It's true, that theory seems too obvious now and I really hope to get surprised and fascinated by Jordan's ideas.

 

The problem with the survival issue is that there could be too much dying (you know, if Rand is resurrected and then makes a sacrifice in the Pit of Doom)... I even had this idea of the threefold death (including the metaphorical one in VoG) - the motive in Celtic and Germanic mythology - but, still... I thought that maybe for the Dragon's blood to save the world his willingness to sacrifice himself and getting almost dead (i.e. spitting some blood) could be enough :wacko:

 

edited because my English is not perfect, sorry.

Edited by gwenifer
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I've got an idea how to reduce death rate. Let's look at Jesus, to whom Rand is parallel: He sacrified himself first so that later He could live forever, like those whom He saved will. The very moment when His blood brought us salvation (feed us from Shadow) was on the cross, when He died. Then He was resurrected - which made the work complete - and one day He'll be back as a Judge and a King to crush Satan, no more sacrifice.

 

Now Rand:

"Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

 

We know that the "the rock of Shayol Ghul" may simply refer to the stone used to build Taim's palace. But why repeat the same motive in the second line and in the Last Battle then? "Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost. Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay." Maybe his presumed semi-suicidal act before the LB will be the price, the sacrifice which will become fully salutary when he goes to the Pit of Doom. Then we'd have to interpret VoG as actual death:

"Twice and twice shall he be marked,

twice to live and twice to die.

Once the heron, to set his path.= once to live

Twice the heron, to name him true.= twice to live

Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.=once to die (VoG)

Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay."=twice to die (?)

 

Okay, I was just thinking out loud, sorry if it makes no sense at all or is totally secondary, I'm no theoriser :smile:

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A few things I'm thinking about... I was considering the whole "foreshadowing in Chapter 27 of tDR," and that got me thinking of some other foreshadowing that might be present in that book, and that is the scene where Rand attempts to revive the girl (woman?) with Callandor. He gets her to levitate off the ground, but that's about it. So I'm thinking that, when Nynave does try to resurrect Rand, that she uses Callandor to do it. The only thing I'm worried about is that, in the aMoL cover, Rand is obviously holding Callandor. If he goes into the cave to confront Moridin, how the heck do they get Rand's body back (they obviously do, as is seen on the original aMoL cover), and how do they get Callandor back?

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This is how I believe it will play out.

 

There are 2 seals left. If Rand breaks both seals, then the DO is free. Would you not want your forces in position before doing that?

 

First - Rand gathers the folks at the FoM, he breaks one to prove his intent. People freak out. Lines are drawn and sides are chosen. Perhaps some blood is shed.

 

Second - Rand (with Moiraine and Nynaeve as supported by the back cover art) travels to SG and breaks the final seal in the PoD. (possibly with a new seal created by Perrin) Regardless of the 'ivnisibility' dagger, the remaining Chosen will be drawn there, as they were in the AoL when they were trapped. Fain too. That is where I see Rand's death. In the Pit of Doom - satisfying the blood on the rocks prophecy. Now starts the LB.

 

Third - The girls take his body, and the ressurection with play out as the Wheel wills.

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On one level, I agree (and have already previously mentioned) thisguy's theory in other threads. It seems being tied to the Horn and ripped out of TAR would be one of the most logical ways to satisfy his death/life.

 

I have another thought though, especially focusing on that quote from the Finn's. They talk about the East and West being as one, etc. Early in the series, when discussing the Dragon, they mention him being one with the land and all that too. Perhaps their answer deals with the Dragon's oneness and link to Randland in general. Unsure.

 

Good theories though guys

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There are lots of theories about how he will pull this off. Everything from a farce where people believe him dead to Alivia accidentally killing him. I've read where he could be ripped out of TAR like Birgitte and also where he could come back wth the Heroes of the Horn too. These are all good ideas.

 

The thing that sticks out to me, and lots of folks talk about foreshadowing, is how many times it's mentioned in the books that you cannot heal death. Add that to how many times it's mentioned about how great Nyneave is with Healing and how she won't be satisfied until she heals someone that been "3 days dead" and I think you may have your answer right there. Another example of foreshadowing was Lan telling Rand before they left to find to Horn of Valere about "Sheathing the Sword". Who didn't see that coming when he fought Ishamael? Or when Moiraine told the girls she knew the face of the man she would marry better than they did and now she's with Thom?

 

There are lots of cool ways it could happen. And eliminating the most obvious isn't always a good idea. There are lots of bright people who put thought into their theories, (and some dummies too!), but we've also seen the obvious happen too. Remember all the talk about how Mat would finally kill the Golum? I seen lots of theories on that and the most obvious way to do it turned out to be how it was done. (Shoving it into a skimming gateway). Another example was who would go into the Tower with Mat and Thom. That was pretty obvious it was going to be Jain Farstrider. (Unless you really, deep-down thought he'd take Olver). One final example was the purpose in the ashandari Mat was given and how he would escape from the Tower with Moiraine.

 

My point is, even though the theorizing is fun and interesting, I never rule out the most obvious thing happening.

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There are lots of theories about how he will pull this off. Everything from a farce where people believe him dead to Alivia accidentally killing him. I've read where he could be ripped out of TAR like Birgitte and also where he could come back wth the Heroes of the Horn too. These are all good ideas.

 

The thing that sticks out to me, and lots of folks talk about foreshadowing, is how many times it's mentioned in the books that you cannot heal death. Add that to how many times it's mentioned about how great Nyneave is with Healing and how she won't be satisfied until she heals someone that been "3 days dead" and I think you may have your answer right there. Another example of foreshadowing was Lan telling Rand before they left to find to Horn of Valere about "Sheathing the Sword". Who didn't see that coming when he fought Ishamael? Or when Moiraine told the girls she knew the face of the man she would marry better than they did and now she's with Thom?

 

There are lots of cool ways it could happen. And eliminating the most obvious isn't always a good idea. There are lots of bright people who put thought into their theories, (and some dummies too!), but we've also seen the obvious happen too. Remember all the talk about how Mat would finally kill the Golum? I seen lots of theories on that and the most obvious way to do it turned out to be how it was done. (Shoving it into a skimming gateway). Another example was who would go into the Tower with Mat and Thom. That was pretty obvious it was going to be Jain Farstrider. (Unless you really, deep-down thought he'd take Olver). One final example was the purpose in the ashandari Mat was given and how he would escape from the Tower with Moiraine.

 

My point is, even though the theorizing is fun and interesting, I never rule out the most obvious thing happening.

 

And now I'm pondering Min's misterious aunties possible role in all that, since she repeatedly recalls them. Surely they qualify as Rand's potential killers or at least spankers. :wink:

 

Seriously, I love all those foreshadowings.

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The ripping out of Tel'aran'rhiod theory might not be as obvious as you think. I think it probably occurs to most people, but many people (even people who have been around the internet fandom for years) tended to go for Nynaeve healing death as if they were mutually exclusive ideas. Lots of people react really badly to the idea that he would be ripped out because Birgitte's ripping-out was something evil and therefore bad. There were also implications that Birgitte was ripped out forever, or that she wasn't a Hero anymore, or some such horrible consequence. RJ cleared that up in WH with a Min viewing; there were only minor consequences, none of which apply to Rand.

 

That said, sometimes it's good to give the reader the obvious. We like surprises, but we also like for a story to have cohesiveness in the foreshadowing. It's a balance, and RJ usually does pretty well on that front. I'll do a poll on this just for fun; I've done one here before but there's no harm in a recount.

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I'm with the body switch faction. Rand and Moridin exchanging bodies would fit a lot better than ripping Rand out of TAR.They already have a shared awareness of each other's bodies and there are two Viewings to support it. There was that Viewing Min had of Rand and someone else merging together. Rand immediately interpreted it as his struggle with LTT and that's the surest sign that the viewing means anything but that. And then there was that Viewing of Callandor in a dark fist. If Rand is carrying Callandor when the body switch happens Callandor would end up in Moridin's hands afterall.

 

Also if Rand gets ripped out of TAR it may be too easy. He would, atleast in the beginning, have all the memories of all the lives he lived- not just LTT- and he would know exactly how he defeated the DO all those times. And that would be really lame. Rand has to struggle or it will be a boring ending.

Edited by b3arz3rg3r
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Rand did have all those memories in VoG, albeit briefly, and the curious thing is that he did not think to himself 'Aha! So that's how to do it!' So I'm wondering if the Dragonsoul ever did have that knowledge. Maybe what he has to do is to hold the DO at bay while someone else does the sealing / healing of the Bore:

 

"Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.'

 

ETA: Another resurrection possibility is that the DO may transmigrate him!

Edited by FarShainMael
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Rand did have all those memories in VoG, albeit briefly, and the curious thing is that he did not think to himself 'Aha! So that's how to do it!' So I'm wondering if the Dragonsoul ever did have that knowledge. Maybe what he has to do is to hold the DO at bay while someone else does the sealing / healing of the Bore:

 

"Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.'

 

ETA: Another resurrection possibility is that the DO may transmigrate him!

 

He saw only a glimpse of those lives. The only life he really integrated was LTT and LTT only managed to postpone the conflict not to win it. If he ended up ripped out of TAR however he would have the full memories of all his lives in the beginning if Birgitte is any measure. Besides he would be a completely different person. His life as Rand would have the same weight as all his other lives. And yet another personality change after VOG would be too fast.

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Now that I reconsider the body-swap theory I no longer find it a completely bad idea. The thing is, there are too many and too few things (i.e. prophecies, foreshadowings, foretellings, dreams, visions) in the same time. No one is able to make one satisfying concept out of this, I humbly believe, as it must have been made on purpose, obviously. There's always some little (at least) incoherence - in the TAR, the body-swap and the Nynaeve theory alike.

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What's the incoherency with Nynaeve?

 

Well, probably it's just my "problem" then :smile: .. I have no idea what are the "3 on the boat" for in that case (of course I know it doesn't have to be literal). What would be the role of the triple goddess? It seems to be significant, since they are the Fates or the Moirai and in that very moment - i.e. on the boat - the future will teeter on the edge of a blade", and "the scale tilting first one way then the other". The women before the pyre - that's quite clear in turn, but then - why would Nynaeve wait 3 days (if this foreshadowing and parallel are accurate)? Maybe she'll be with Lan in the meantime... And if Rand is simply dead, why is it said that "it is important that he not die" or "he who is dead, yet lives"? Does it really refer to TAR (by the way, would that actually be fair to rip him out of TAR? He could simply say "no, go away ladies, I've finished for now, we will have draw again" and "I won again, Lews Therin")? I thought that maybe at first he would be brought back to the state of something like coma (by Nyn) and therefore need some more action. Or, like someone suggested, he wouldn't be completely dead due to his soul being contained in Callandor ("all that he is can be seized", "the Blade will bind him by twin" etc). Anyway, the "if you would live, you must die" and Alivia's help seem to imply that it won't be a totally accidental death, hence the idea of Callandor. Ok, I know it's a mess, but I have to go now. I honestly believe in your ability to make me see more clearly :smile:

Edited by gwenifer
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What's the incoherency with Nynaeve?

 

Well, probably it's just my "problem" then :smile: .. I have no idea what are the "3 on the boat" for in that case (of course I know it doesn't have to be literal). What would be the role of the triple goddess?

 

If Nynaeve rips Rand out of Tel'aran'rhiod like Moghedien did to Birgitte, then he'll presumably be in the same situation that Birgitte was in when she was ripped out. She was dying, and Nynaeve couldn't Heal her, so Elayne bonded her. The resurrection has two parts; Nynaeve had to be there when Birgitte was ripped out so she could learn how to do it. Elayne had to be there to figure out how to save someone who has been ripped out. She was also the one who figured out how to alter the Warder bond to include Aviendha and even Min. The boat seems almost irrelevant in that context. I do wish we had more clues to work with. Maybe we do, and I'm missing them. I'll admit that might be due to my reluctance to put Egwene in the picture; I see Egwene as being tied more to his death, but perhaps she will be the one to think of it, and her Skimming boat will come into it. I do like the idea of the boat being in the Waterwood, but it doesn't seem to serve much purpose aside from hiding. Maybe the boat would make him more difficult to find? It would fit a few themes about what is reflected in Tel'aran'rhiod and what is not.

 

It seems to be significant, since they are the Fates or the Moirai and in that very moment - i.e. on the boat - the future will teeter on the edge of a blade", and "the scale tilting first one way then the other". The women before the pyre - that's quite clear in turn, but then - why would Nynaeve wait 3 days (if this foreshadowing and parallel are accurate)?

 

That's a good question, one I've been mulling on in a different context. From the very chapter where Birgitte was ripped out:

 

"I am trying to hold my temper," Nynaeve muttered. Everybody complained about her temper, and now that she was trying to control it, Elayne complained about that! It was not that she was fool enough to be taken in by his compliments. She certainly was not so big a fool as that. Elayne laughed at her, and she scowled.

 

"Oh, Nynaeve. 'You cannot hold the sun down at dawn.' Lini could have been thinking of you."

 

This quote made me start thinking about it a little differently, especially in the Boann/Dagda context. It seems to suggest that there is some reason Nynaeve has to wait, and her waiting is what holds down the sun at dawn until the proper time. The second dawn comes with the resurrection. Though I can definitely see the advantage to holding the sun down after he's been resurrected so that no one knows he's back.

 

Maybe she'll be with Lan in the meantime...

 

That's definitely a possibility. But if Lan is dead...

 

And if Rand is simply dead, why is it said that "it is important that he not die" or "he who is dead, yet lives"?

 

I think one refers to his death and the other to his resurrection. It's important that he not die because he is the Dragon Reborn, but the pyre is being built because he's going to die anyway, no matter how important he is. I think the boat scene happens three days after he dies. So he's dead, yet he lives, just like Birgitte was dead, yet she lives. She remembers being dead; those are in fact her most recent memories. She was dead for a long time; Rand will only be dead for three days.

 

Does it really refer to TAR (by the way, would that actually be fair to rip him out of TAR? He could simply say "no, go away ladies, I've finished for now, we will have draw again" and "I won again, Lews Therin")?

 

Not sure what you're getting at with the second bit. As for the first bit, I don't believe it will happen that way; if Rand dies before saving the world I'm sure he'll know he needs to go back. I think it will be a little more chaotic than that, though; I think maybe Slayer was created for the purpose of assassinating Rand in Tel'aran'rhiod for the permanent death. And then there will be the dreamspike battle at the Black Tower; I have a feeling this will all be going on at once. That's how things tend to go in RJ's climax scenes.

 

I thought that maybe at first he would be brought back to the state of something like coma (by Nyn) and therefore need some more action. Or, like someone suggested, he wouldn't be completely dead due to his soul being contained in Callandor ("all that he is can be seized", "the Blade will bind him by twin" etc). Anyway, the "if you would live, you must die" and Alivia's help seem to imply that it won't be a totally accidental death, hence the idea of Callandor. Ok, I know it's a mess, but I have to go now. I honestly believe in your ability to make me see more clearly :smile:

 

Min said that Rand will die, so I don't think a coma will do. I think Callandor is dangerous, and the eclipse seen on the Whelan cover a warning. "Against what do we guard?" "The shadow at noon." "How long do we guard?" "From rising sun to rising sun, so long as the Wheel turns." I'm not entirely sure that 'the blade will bind him by twain' necessarily refers to Callandor. It might, though. It might have something to do with the fact that he theoretically wouldn't be in control of the link. The dangers of that were foreshadowed with Eben Hopwil at the cleansing. Anyway, I doubt that Rand's soul will be somehow contained in Callandor. There's no real foreshadowing for it, and tons upon tons of (very intricate) foreshadowing for doing it via Tel'aran'rhiod. Just a sample.

 

Marigan, a few years older, had been plump once, but her frayed brown dress hung on her loosely now, and her blunt face looked beyond weary. Her two sons, six and seven, stared silently at the world with too-big eyes; clinging to each other, they seemed frightened of everything and everyone else, even their own mother. Marigan had dealt in cures and herbs in Samara, though she had some odd ideas about both. That was no wonder, really; a woman who offered healing with Amadicia and Whitecloaks right across the river had to keep low, and even from the first she had had to teach herself. All she had ever wanted to do was cure sickness, and she claimed to have done it well, though she had not been able to save her husband. The five years since his death had been hard, and the coming of the Prophet had certainly not helped her any. Mobs searching for Aes Sedai chased her into hiding after she had cured a man of fever and rumor had turned it into bringing him back from the dead. That was how little most people knew of Aes Sedai; death was beyond the power to Heal. Even Marigan seemed to think it was not. She did not know where she was going any more than Nicola. A village somewhere, she hoped, where she could dispense herbs again in peace.

 

This is Nynaeve's POV. Marigan obviously is Moghedien's alias, but notably her backstory was that she was a healer, and her name parallels Irish folklore: The Morrígan, who seduced The Dagda by offering him an unbeatable battle plan. The Dagda's name parallel is introduced in the very next chapter: Dagdara, the best Healer in Salidar and also Black Ajah.

 

The Dagda's most notorious lover is probably Boann, river goddess on the River Boyne. The above quote is from the chapter 'To Boannda'; Boannda was a stop on the River Boern. When Boann and the Dagda had an affair, Boann conceived, and so the Dagda stopped the sun for nine months so that Boann could give birth on the same day that she conceived. Boann is part of a triple goddess herself with Ceridwen and Birgid (though Birgid is sometimes part of a triple goddess with her two sisters Birgid; I can't get that straight but I gather it's different traditions). Ceridwen is paralleled as Caredwain, the healer offered to Lady Selene when she wasn't feeling well at The Nine Rings in Tremonsien, home of the male Choedan Kal.

 

Most people think this is a foreshadowing of Nynaeve healing death, but I believe I was the first to catch the reference to the method. Moghedien was the one to teach her how to do it, so in a way, Marigan did indeed believe that death could be healed. She had just done it a few chapters before, and Nynaeve was there. Also present in the above passage were Birgitte (the subject), Elayne (who figured out the second part of the resurrection), and Nicola, who in the next book Foretold the scenario with Rand and his three women on a boat. The mythological subtext highlights not only the connection between Marigan and Birgitte, but also makes a very subtle but very thorough reference to healing (Marigan the healer, Caredwain the healer, and Dagdara the healer in the next chapter, names all derived from the same mythology). Boann herself along with Dagdara makes a reference to the unnatural behavior of the sun, foreshadowed subtle (as noted above) in the very chapter where Birgitte is ripped out. It might also make a reference to Elayne's babies.

 

I can't think of any other instance in the series where the foreshadowing is so intricate. That might just be my general ignorance about mythology. There's even more connectivity in the Perun legends. :wink:

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What's the incoherency with Nynaeve?

 

Well, probably it's just my "problem" then :smile: .. I have no idea what are the "3 on the boat" for in that case (of course I know it doesn't have to be literal). What would be the role of the triple goddess? It seems to be significant, since they are the Fates or the Moirai and in that very moment - i.e. on the boat - the future will teeter on the edge of a blade", and "the scale tilting first one way then the other". The women before the pyre - that's quite clear in turn, but then - why would Nynaeve wait 3 days (if this foreshadowing and parallel are accurate)? Maybe she'll be with Lan in the meantime... And if Rand is simply dead, why is it said that "it is important that he not die" or "he who is dead, yet lives"? Does it really refer to TAR (by the way, would that actually be fair to rip him out of TAR? He could simply say "no, go away ladies, I've finished for now, we will have draw again" and "I won again, Lews Therin")? I thought that maybe at first he would be brought back to the state of something like coma (by Nyn) and therefore need some more action. Or, like someone suggested, he wouldn't be completely dead due to his soul being contained in Callandor ("all that he is can be seized", "the Blade will bind him by twin" etc). Anyway, the "if you would live, you must die" and Alivia's help seem to imply that it won't be a totally accidental death, hence the idea of Callandor. Ok, I know it's a mess, but I have to go now. I honestly believe in your ability to make me see more clearly :smile:

Both Christ and King Arthur had three women at their ascension.

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Edit: sorry, I don't know how to divide the quote in order to reply separately to each paragraph so you will have to find my answers...

 

What's the incoherency with Nynaeve?

 

Well, probably it's just my "problem" then :smile: .. I have no idea what are the "3 on the boat" for in that case (of course I know it doesn't have to be literal). What would be the role of the triple goddess?

 

If Nynaeve rips Rand out of Tel'aran'rhiod like Moghedien did to Birgitte, then he'll presumably be in the same situation that Birgitte was in when she was ripped out. She was dying, and Nynaeve couldn't Heal her, so Elayne bonded her. The resurrection has two parts; Nynaeve had to be there when Birgitte was ripped out so she could learn how to do it. Elayne had to be there to figure out how to save someone who has been ripped out. She was also the one who figured out how to alter the Warder bond to include Aviendha and even Min. The boat seems almost irrelevant in that context. I do wish we had more clues to work with. Maybe we do, and I'm missing them. I'll admit that might be due to my reluctance to put Egwene in the picture; I see Egwene as being tied more to his death, but perhaps she will be the one to think of it, and her Skimming boat will come into it. I do like the idea of the boat being in the Waterwood, but it doesn't seem to serve much purpose aside from hiding. Maybe the boat would make him more difficult to find? It would fit a few themes about what is reflected in Tel'aran'rhiod and what is not.

 

 

If Nynaeve heals Rand's death by ripping him, there's no problem - we have both theories mixed together. But what I meant by saying "Nynaeve healing death" was actual Healing - the same way it had been said "you can't Heal stilling", "you can't Heal madness", and yet she did just that. Ripping him won't be actual healing, will it. There will be no moment of "Nynaeve, you amazing girl, you did it!!!". Probably it will be fulfilled this way, not the literal one, therefore it is a little cheat, playing with foreshadowings.

 

It seems to be significant, since they are the Fates or the Moirai and in that very moment - i.e. on the boat - the future will teeter on the edge of a blade", and "the scale tilting first one way then the other". The women before the pyre - that's quite clear in turn, but then - why would Nynaeve wait 3 days (if this foreshadowing and parallel are accurate)?

 

That's a good question, one I've been mulling on in a different context. From the very chapter where Birgitte was ripped out:

 

"I am trying to hold my temper," Nynaeve muttered. Everybody complained about her temper, and now that she was trying to control it, Elayne complained about that! It was not that she was fool enough to be taken in by his compliments. She certainly was not so big a fool as that. Elayne laughed at her, and she scowled.

 

"Oh, Nynaeve. 'You cannot hold the sun down at dawn.' Lini could have been thinking of you."

 

This quote made me start thinking about it a little differently, especially in the Boann/Dagda context. It seems to suggest that there is some reason Nynaeve has to wait, and her waiting is what holds down the sun at dawn until the proper time. The second dawn comes with the resurrection. Though I can definitely see the advantage to holding the sun down after he's been resurrected so that no one knows he's back.

 

 

Maybe she wouldn't have to wait 3 actually - they would go to TAR soon after the death, while in the real world Rand would be exactly 3 days dead.

 

Maybe she'll be with Lan in the meantime...

 

That's definitely a possibility. But if Lan is dead...

 

And if Rand is simply dead, why is it said that "it is important that he not die" or "he who is dead, yet lives"?

 

I think one refers to his death and the other to his resurrection. It's important that he not die because he is the Dragon Reborn, but the pyre is being built because he's going to die anyway, no matter how important he is. I think the boat scene happens three days after he dies. So he's dead, yet he lives, just like Birgitte was dead, yet she lives. She remembers being dead; those are in fact her most recent memories. She was dead for a long time; Rand will only be dead for three day

 

 

I think that the part "yet the pyre is being built" means the world's general conviction of the Dragon's death. Why would anybody think or believe that he will be resurrected, why would they even know of the girls' crazy action. People will be horrified and think him dead.

 

Does it really refer to TAR (by the way, would that actually be fair to rip him out of TAR? He could simply say "no, go away ladies, I've finished for now, we will have draw again" and "I won again, Lews Therin")?

 

Not sure what you're getting at with the second bit. As for the first bit, I don't believe it will happen that way; if Rand dies before saving the world I'm sure he'll know he needs to go back. I think it will be a little more chaotic than that, though; I think maybe Slayer was created for the purpose of assassinating Rand in Tel'aran'rhiod for the permanent death. And then there will be the dreamspike battle at the Black Tower; I have a feeling this will all be going on at once. That's how things tend to go in RJ's climax scenes.

 

 

Isn't it ironic that the meaning of "Isam" is "protection", "security"...

 

I thought that maybe at first he would be brought back to the state of something like coma (by Nyn) and therefore need some more action. Or, like someone suggested, he wouldn't be completely dead due to his soul being contained in Callandor ("all that he is can be seized", "the Blade will bind him by twin" etc). Anyway, the "if you would live, you must die" and Alivia's help seem to imply that it won't be a totally accidental death, hence the idea of Callandor. Ok, I know it's a mess, but I have to go now. I honestly believe in your ability to make me see more clearly :smile:

 

Min said that Rand will die, so I don't think a coma will do. I think Callandor is dangerous, and the eclipse seen on the Whelan cover a warning. "Against what do we guard?" "The shadow at noon." "How long do we guard?" "From rising sun to rising sun, so long as the Wheel turns." I'm not entirely sure that 'the blade will bind him by twain' necessarily refers to Callandor. It might, though. It might have something to do with the fact that he theoretically wouldn't be in control of the link. The dangers of that were foreshadowed with Eben Hopwil at the cleansing. Anyway, I doubt that Rand's soul will be somehow contained in Callandor. There's no real foreshadowing for it, and tons upon tons of (very intricate) foreshadowing for doing it via Tel'aran'rhiod. Just a sample.

 

Marigan, a few years older, had been plump once, but her frayed brown dress hung on her loosely now, and her blunt face looked beyond weary. Her two sons, six and seven, stared silently at the world with too-big eyes; clinging to each other, they seemed frightened of everything and everyone else, even their own mother. Marigan had dealt in cures and herbs in Samara, though she had some odd ideas about both. That was no wonder, really; a woman who offered healing with Amadicia and Whitecloaks right across the river had to keep low, and even from the first she had had to teach herself. All she had ever wanted to do was cure sickness, and she claimed to have done it well, though she had not been able to save her husband. The five years since his death had been hard, and the coming of the Prophet had certainly not helped her any. Mobs searching for Aes Sedai chased her into hiding after she had cured a man of fever and rumor had turned it into bringing him back from the dead. That was how little most people knew of Aes Sedai; death was beyond the power to Heal. Even Marigan seemed to think it was not. She did not know where she was going any more than Nicola. A village somewhere, she hoped, where she could dispense herbs again in peace.

 

This is Nynaeve's POV. Marigan obviously is Moghedien's alias, but notably her backstory was that she was a healer, and her name parallels Irish folklore: The Morrígan, who seduced The Dagda by offering him an unbeatable battle plan. The Dagda's name parallel is introduced in the very next chapter: Dagdara, the best Healer in Salidar and also Black Ajah.

 

The Dagda's most notorious lover is probably Boann, river goddess on the River Boyne. The above quote is from the chapter 'To Boannda'; Boannda was a stop on the River Boern. When Boann and the Dagda had an affair, Boann conceived, and so the Dagda stopped the sun for nine months so that Boann could give birth on the same day that she conceived. Boann is part of a triple goddess herself with Ceridwen and Birgid (though Birgid is sometimes part of a triple goddess with her two sisters Birgid; I can't get that straight but I gather it's different traditions). Ceridwen is paralleled as Caredwain, the healer offered to Lady Selene when she wasn't feeling well at The Nine Rings in Tremonsien, home of the male Choedan Kal.

 

Most people think this is a foreshadowing of Nynaeve healing death, but I believe I was the first to catch the reference to the method. Moghedien was the one to teach her how to do it, so in a way, Marigan did indeed believe that death could be healed. She had just done it a few chapters before, and Nynaeve was there. Also present in the above passage were Birgitte (the subject), Elayne (who figured out the second part of the resurrection), and Nicola, who in the next book Foretold the scenario with Rand and his three women on a boat. The mythological subtext highlights not only the connection between Marigan and Birgitte, but also makes a very subtle but very thorough reference to healing (Marigan the healer, Caredwain the healer, and Dagdara the healer in the next chapter, names all derived from the same mythology). Boann herself along with Dagdara makes a reference to the unnatural behavior of the sun, foreshadowed subtle (as noted above) in the very chapter where Birgitte is ripped out. It might also make a reference to Elayne's babies.

 

I can't think of any other instance in the series where the foreshadowing is so intricate. That might just be my general ignorance about mythology. There's even more connectivity in the Perun legends. :wink:

 

You general ignorance about mythology? You're kidding, right? :wink:

By coma I meant the state after healing death (i.e. Rand resurrected, but unconscious), but it's not any serious thought anyway.

As to the river: maybe it's Styx, symbolising simply the state between life and death, the journey. I had this funny thought - there was Cerberus by Styx, a three-headed dog that allowed no souls ever to leave the realm of the dead... while out triple goddess wants to do just that :smile:

Edited by gwenifer
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