How Rand Dies And Comes Back To Life

[Vardar]

The Nicola Foretelling is the strongest prophecy dealing with his resurrection. He has already died in that scene, yet it's clear that he is still important to events in the world. If he's already dead, then why is he important at all? Why is he on a boat? Why are his three women important? I wrote a summary of the foreshadowing here if you are interested. I compared it to the foreshadowing that Mat would lose his eye, because it's every bit as obvious. More obvious, really.

 

Being on a funeral bier doesn't mean you're dead.

 

Again, this was my entire point.

[Vardar]

There's no evidence in WoT at all that people can swap bodies. Merge, yes. Swap, no.

 

Actually it's been stated that the guy from Shadar Logath could take over your body if you took a gift from him. It's not really merging, and it suggests that you can take over another body, so what happens if he takes your's? Can you take over someone eles?

 

Is that proof, no. But is it evidence that something like that could occur? Yes, I'd say yes.

 

It's not pretending. It's knowing I have a better grasp of the evidence than most people.

technically it isn't knowing unless you've seen it, otherwise it's simply a very good hypothesis

 

This.

 

And I'll be honest for a second, that quote is rather mean and harsh. But to each his/her own. If it makes you feel better thinking you're better then ok. At the end of the day, it's still an opinion and not fact. (Unless you have access to notes of some sort in which case you can be right for that reason)

[Suttree]

There's no evidence in WoT at all that people can swap bodies. Merge, yes. Swap, no.

 

Actually it's been stated that the guy from Shadar Logath could take over your body if you took a gift from him. It's not really merging, and it suggests that you can take over another body, so what happens if he takes your's? Can you take over someone eles?

 

Aside from that fact that he was something uttery unique, Mordeth didn't really have a body. That can hardly be called a swap.

 

As for Terez she is merely stating the obvious. While her theory is an opinion I don't think anyone would argue that she has a better grasp of the material than the vast majority out there. That was what she meant with the "knowing" line.

[Vardar]

There's no evidence in WoT at all that people can swap bodies. Merge, yes. Swap, no.

 

Actually it's been stated that the guy from Shadar Logath could take over your body if you took a gift from him. It's not really merging, and it suggests that you can take over another body, so what happens if he takes your's? Can you take over someone eles?

 

Aside from that fact that he was something uttery unique, Mordeth didn't really have a body. That can hardly be called a swap.

 

As for Terez she is merely stating the obvious. While her theory is an opinion I don't think anyone would argue that she has a better grasp of the material than the vast majority out there. That was what she meant with the "knowing" line.

 

Is that proof, no. But is it evidence that something like that could occur? Yes, I'd say yes.

 

I didn't call it a swap.

[Tiberius]

I don't buy into the body swap theory. Perhaps Moridin kills Rand, Alivia balefires Moridin, Rand lives again ala Mat, Moridin is dead, link is gone... You get the idea. I'd rather see Nyn bring Lan back via OP resurrection after finding him three days dead in the blight. I really don't want Lan dead.

 

I think the Finn's answer referred to his rebirth if and only if he died properly, at the right time, and the pattern remained whole. If Rand turned to the shadow, or otherwise lost TG, he would not be "dead" he would be annihilated via the DO destroying the pattern. His question wasn't worded specifically enough to the Finns. Lots of wiggle room there.

[thisguy]

I'm rereading The Shadow Rising. In the chapter called "Need", Nynaeve meets with Egwene, Amys and Bair in the dream world. She asks if there's a way to pull someone out of their own dream into T-Land. The Wise Ones tell her it is an evil thing and they wouldn't teach her even if they knew how. That it was what the Shadow did in the last days of the Age of Legends.

 

I'm wondering if Rand gets pulled into T-Land and is Dead but Not Dead. Sort of like how Faile was in Book 3 because Terangreal hedgehog.

[Mystraka]

There's no evidence in WoT at all that people can swap bodies. Merge, yes. Swap, no.

 

Actually it's been stated that the guy from Shadar Logath could take over your body if you took a gift from him. It's not really merging, and it suggests that you can take over another body, so what happens if he takes your's? Can you take over someone eles?

 

Aside from that fact that he was something uttery unique, Mordeth didn't really have a body. That can hardly be called a swap.

 

As for Terez she is merely stating the obvious. While her theory is an opinion I don't think anyone would argue that she has a better grasp of the material than the vast majority out there. That was what she meant with the "knowing" line.

 

If you have to explain what Terez meant, perhaps she should spend the time to relay her thoughts a little more clearly.

 

Terez, I understand you feel like you have more understanding than everyone else who isn't as active as you on these forums, but every last ounce of your "understanding" means nothing until the book is released and your proven to be correct. Until then, please allow others to voice their theories and speculations, without the belittling jabs.

[thisguy]

The more I think about it the more I think that Rand will go T-L-Rond while his body dies. Perhaps, Nynaeve and Moiraine will cleanse the body of the taint somehow when he dies. He's a hero of the Horn, Rand is, and when they die they go to T-Rond. He won't be ripped out like Birgette was, like I thought. He will go there where the dead heroes of the horn go. The ripping out is a red herring. So, he'll await them there while they do whatever needs to be done to his body. There will probably be some sort of battle in T-Rond. Perrin can help him there. Perrin seems to be the strongest, or one of the strongest, Dreamers the good guys have. Egwene was impressed how he just made balefire non-existent. Mat will fight the war in the waking world, one of the leaders of the armies.

 

I really think that this is close to the deal. I also think, as I've said before, that Ishmael will side with Rand against Padan Fain.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Bodyswap has no foreshadowing at all.

• Except for Rand and Moridin having become able to sense each others bodies, going so far as to even being able to draw the other into one's dreams despite both sides probably guarding their dreams.
  
• Or Moridin's talks about the Fisher King in the sha'rah game which can switch sides
  
• Min's viewing of Rand and some other man merging into one another
  
• and Egwene's dream about "a man dying and it being important that he did not die"
  
• oh and then there were quite a few fights in TAR like when we saw Rand being transformed into LTT or into an animal or Birgitte being transformed into a child. In TAR exchanging bodies could be quite possible. Especially if they enter in the flesh. And so far most of Rand's encounters with Moridin have taken place in TAR or a similar place.
  

 

That's far more in my opinion than a theory which says because it happened to Birgitte RJ is going to use it again with Rand.

[Suttree]

Bodyswap has no foreshadowing at all.

• Except for Rand and Moridin having become able to sense each others bodies, going so far as to even being able to draw the other into one's dreams despite both sides probably guarding their dreams.
  
• Or Moridin's talks about the Fisher King in the sha'rah game which can switch sides
  
• Min's viewing of Rand and some other man merging into one another
  
• and Egwene's dream about "a man dying and it being important that he did not die"
  
• oh and then there were quite a few fights in TAR like when we saw Rand being transformed into LTT or into an animal or Birgitte being transformed into a child. In TAR exchanging bodies could be quite possible. Especially if they enter in the flesh. And so far most of Rand's encounters with Moridin have taken place in TAR or a similar place.
  

 

That's far more in my opinion than a theory which says because it happened to Birgitte RJ is going to use it again with Rand.

 

Ermm maybe one or two could generously be called foreshadowing for a swap(which would still be a big stretch). Most have little to nothing to do with it.

[Matrim-Bloody-Cauthon]

Bodyswap has no foreshadowing at all.

• Except for Rand and Moridin having become able to sense each others bodies, going so far as to even being able to draw the other into one's dreams despite both sides probably guarding their dreams.
  
• Or Moridin's talks about the Fisher King in the sha'rah game which can switch sides
  
• Min's viewing of Rand and some other man merging into one another
  
• and Egwene's dream about "a man dying and it being important that he did not die"
  
• oh and then there were quite a few fights in TAR like when we saw Rand being transformed into LTT or into an animal or Birgitte being transformed into a child. In TAR exchanging bodies could be quite possible. Especially if they enter in the flesh. And so far most of Rand's encounters with Moridin have taken place in TAR or a similar place.
  

 

That's far more in my opinion than a theory which says because it happened to Birgitte RJ is going to use it again with Rand.

 

Ermm maybe one or two could generously be called foreshadowing for a swap(which would still be a big stretch). Most have little to nothing to do with it.

Those are no more a stretch then assuming someone will heal death, which has been repeatedly drilled home as impossible.

Or that Nyn decides something moghedien did to torture/kill birgitte is a good idea to do to Rand.

Frankly i would say all 3 have about equal foreshadowing, which is little to none. People see what they want to see, and everyone believes that they have the right of it.

Honestly a 'merge' or 'soulswap' seems most likely to me, not because i think we've been hinted toward it. But because these things have happened already (rand with LTT, several people thru transmigration, luc/isam...) and dont seem to have an adverse effect on the soul being transferred or merged.

I just cant see why its been so heavily stated death cant be healed no matter what, just to have Nyn be like 'oh i can do that to'

Same goes for something as obviously evil as ripping soneone out of TAR. That is in direct opposition to the patterns will, if they were supposed to come out, they would be born. Thats how it works.

[thisguy]

Bodyswap has no foreshadowing at all.

• Except for Rand and Moridin having become able to sense each others bodies, going so far as to even being able to draw the other into one's dreams despite both sides probably guarding their dreams.
  
• Or Moridin's talks about the Fisher King in the sha'rah game which can switch sides
  
• Min's viewing of Rand and some other man merging into one another
  
• and Egwene's dream about "a man dying and it being important that he did not die"
  
• oh and then there were quite a few fights in TAR like when we saw Rand being transformed into LTT or into an animal or Birgitte being transformed into a child. In TAR exchanging bodies could be quite possible. Especially if they enter in the flesh. And so far most of Rand's encounters with Moridin have taken place in TAR or a similar place.
  

That's far more in my opinion than a theory which says because it happened to Birgitte RJ is going to use it again with Rand.

 

Ermm maybe one or two could generously be called foreshadowing for a swap(which would still be a big stretch). Most have little to nothing to do with it.

Those are no more a stretch then assuming someone will heal death, which has been repeatedly drilled home as impossible.

Or that Nyn decides something moghedien did to torture/kill birgitte is a good idea to do to Rand.

Frankly i would say all 3 have about equal foreshadowing, which is little to none. People see what they want to see, and everyone believes that they have the right of it.

Honestly a 'merge' or 'soulswap' seems most likely to me, not because i think we've been hinted toward it. But because these things have happened already (rand with LTT, several people thru transmigration, luc/isam...) and dont seem to have an adverse effect on the soul being transferred or merged.

I just cant see why its been so heavily stated death cant be healed no matter what, just to have Nyn be like 'oh i can do that to'

Same goes for something as obviously evil as ripping soneone out of TAR. That is in direct opposition to the patterns will, if they were supposed to come out, they would be born. Thats how it works.

 

I have no problem with anything you've said except the last statement. Just because the normal way for people to come into the world is to be born into doesn't mean it goes against the pattern's will for them to be pulled out a la Brigette.

[Matrim-Bloody-Cauthon]

So you think it was the Pattern's design to have her ripped out like that? I guess it could be, the pattern works in mysterious ways :p Either way still doesnt seem like something a 'good guy' should be doing.

[Suttree]

Those are no more a stretch then assuming someone will heal death, which has been repeatedly drilled home as impossible.

 

You do realize that is precisely why it has been foreshadowed so strongly correct? Death is unhealable but Nyn won't rest until she heals someone three days dead. We get repeated mentions on the topic throughout. It's about as blunt as it gets my friend.

[Matrim-Bloody-Cauthon]

Those are no more a stretch then assuming someone will heal death, which has been repeatedly drilled home as impossible.

 

You do realize that is precisely why it has been foreshadowed so strongly correct? Death is unhealable but Nyn won't rest until she heals someone three days dead. We get repeated mentions on the topic throughout. It's about as blunt as it gets my friend.

I would say thats as blunt as it can get to, just going in the other direction :p oh well, guess we find out when aMoL comes out :)

[thisguy]

So you think it was the Pattern's design to have her ripped out like that? I guess it could be, the pattern works in mysterious ways :p Either way still doesnt seem like something a 'good guy' should be doing.

 

I have no idea. The wheel weaves as the wheel wills and all that. Just saying, especially when the story takes place, the unnatural isn't necessarily evil. ;)

[Terez]

The Nicola Foretelling is the strongest prophecy dealing with his resurrection. He has already died in that scene, yet it's clear that he is still important to events in the world. If he's already dead, then why is he important at all? Why is he on a boat? Why are his three women important? I wrote a summary of the foreshadowing here if you are interested. I compared it to the foreshadowing that Mat would lose his eye, because it's every bit as obvious. More obvious, really.

 

Being on a funeral bier doesn't mean you're dead.

 

Again, this was my entire point.

 

I didn't say anything about a funeral bier, did I?

[shortkut]

The Nicola Foretelling is the strongest prophecy dealing with his resurrection. He has already died in that scene, yet it's clear that he is still important to events in the world. If he's already dead, then why is he important at all? Why is he on a boat? Why are his three women important? I wrote a summary of the foreshadowing here if you are interested. I compared it to the foreshadowing that Mat would lose his eye, because it's every bit as obvious. More obvious, really.

 

Being on a funeral bier doesn't mean you're dead.

 

Again, this was my entire point.

 

I didn't say anything about a funeral bier, did I?

but do you not reference the foretelling/dream where it was mentioned...

[Vardar]

The Nicola Foretelling is the strongest prophecy dealing with his resurrection. He has already died in that scene, yet it's clear that he is still important to events in the world. If he's already dead, then why is he important at all? Why is he on a boat? Why are his three women important? I wrote a summary of the foreshadowing here if you are interested. I compared it to the foreshadowing that Mat would lose his eye, because it's every bit as obvious. More obvious, really.

 

Being on a funeral bier doesn't mean you're dead.

 

Again, this was my entire point.

 

I didn't say anything about a funeral bier, did I?

but do you not reference the foretelling/dream where it was mentioned...

 

I'm pretty sure she's going to say a bier is not a pyre, when in fact a pyre is merely a bier that you intent to set aflame.

 

But then again, maybe I got threads mixed up, I was pretty sure that was part of the debate at hand.

[Terez]

I have never said that the bier or the pyre were evidence of Rand's resurrection, on this thread or any other.

[Vardar]

I have never said that the bier or the pyre were evidence of Rand's resurrection, on this thread or any other.

 

Sorry it was from this:

 

“Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.”

 

Wasn't that one mentioned in this thread as well. (As I stated, I may be confusing a number of threads, this is being discussed across a few)

[Terez]

I've never used that as evidence of the resurrection either. I'm working on my new Blood on the Rocks page, and I have the death prophecies sorted into two different categories (it was that way on the original page too): Academic and Theoretical. The pyre and the bier and the paper puppet and such things come into the Theoretical category: i.e. they do not mention Rand's death outright. There are only four prophecies that do that, and Nicola's Foretelling is one of them. (The Dream that mirrors it is not one of them; the other three are the Aelfinn, Min's Alivia viewing, and Twice and Twice.) Those two mirror prophecies - the Foretelling by Nicola and the dream shared by Bair and Melaine - are the only two prophecies that give any real info on the resurrection (Rand is dead, yet he lives, and something important is clearly still happening with him). All the rest of the evidence is foreshadowing (as opposed to prophecy), though one might say that Twice Dawns and a couple of others also hint at the resurrection.

[Vardar]

I've never used that as evidence of the resurrection either. I'm working on my new Blood on the Rocks page, and I have the death prophecies sorted into two different categories (it was that way on the original page too): Academic and Theoretical. The pyre and the bier and the paper puppet and such things come into the Theoretical category: i.e. they do not mention Rand's death outright. There are only four prophecies that do that, and Nicola's Foretelling is one of them. (The Dream that mirrors it is not one of them; the other three are the Aelfinn, Min's Alivia viewing, and Twice and Twice.) Those two mirror prophecies - the Foretelling by Nicola and the dream shared by Bair and Melaine - are the only two prophecies that give any real info on the resurrection (Rand is dead, yet he lives, and something important is clearly still happening with him). All the rest of the evidence is foreshadowing (as opposed to prophecy), though one might say that Twice Dawns and a couple of others also hint at the resurrection.

 

Ok.

[Mark Molzner]

I was reading TGH last night. In the scene where Rand and Thom are in Thom's room speaking of the Kar. Cycle. Thom quotes it to say that 1 day will happen twice. Not that I read every post in this thread, but I haven't heard anyone mention that little fact. Far more plausible than arguments about Nyn's 1 comment.

[Terez]

Are you talking about the Twice Dawns the Day prophecy? It's been mentioned in this thread, and others. I just mentioned it a few posts ago. However, you're not being clear about 1) what you think it means or 2) how it contrasts with Nynaeve's (unspecified) comment.