How Rand Dies And Comes Back To Life

[FarShainMael]

I've been wondering for some time whether the Dragonsoul ever has known how to seal/repair the Bore, in any Turning. I can't help feeling that if he had had that knowledge in any of his previous lives as remembered in VoG, he would have retained that memory if none else. He did remember 'lives lived, mistakes made'.

[Neophyte]

One thing two remember, the world repeats in seven ages. If Rand fails, the wheel is broken, and time is ended with creation being remade/destroyed by the Dark One. If Rand wins, he has to die. But by dying, he will eventually be reborn again, meaning he lives. I think it is entirely possible Rand may not survive this current world.

 

You have to keep in mind there are degrees of victory for the DO. He has won and even turned Rand's soul to the shadow before, he has just never won an "ultimate" victory.

Interview: Nov 1st, 1998

 

SciFi.com Chat (Verbatim)

Rothaar

 

When Rand takes Verin and the others through a Portal Stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the Wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?

Robert Jordan

 

There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight The Dark One. It's never simple.

 

This is indeed the "Last Battle" for this particular age but there have been many "Last Battles" fought before.

 

Has anyone besides Ishamael ever said that Rand's soul has turned to the Shadow before? You'll note that is not what RJ's quote said. Ishamael is a habitual liar ... so I wouldn't trust his assessment. There is no evidence that the Dragon (in whatever incarnation) has ever turned to the Shadow.

 

We do know of times that the Dark One has achieved a measure of victory, however, by "stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do." I'd imagine that, ideally, Lews Therin was supposed to actually fix the prison the first time, instead of putting a flawed seal on it an letting the Dark One taint half of the True Source. The Dark One surely had a degree of victory there - it lead directly to the Breaking, and left his champion (Ishamael) semi-free to influence the next 3000 years of history, depleting the world's supply of channelers through attrition, fragmenting his opposition, and just flat out killing a whole lot of people.

 

The end of the Age of Legends is a perfect example of how the Dark One can have a degree of victory without actually turning the Dragon soul to the Shadow.

[DrZippy]

Or it's not possible for the DO to truly break free without the Dragon either coming to his side or him losing to the DO in the deciding confrontation.

That is a very interesting idea.

[clu7ch]

Do we ever find out how Ishy was not completely bound?

[Tiberius]

Do we ever find out how Ishy was not completely bound?

Not yet. I think that was a RAFO that has not yet been addressed.

[matisawesome]

Moghieden was not supposed to do that to birgette so i think they will have to do a trade, rand for birgette

[Alonin]

I still stand by the idea that Rand is not coming back in this age. But, if I did he does have to come back.... I'd go with the body-swap with Moridin. There has to be a reason for that bond other than characteristics flowing in between the two.

[thisguy]

I'm over 100 pgs into book 8. I believe more than ever that Fain will somehow be used as a buffer to seal the bore and stop the counterstroke from tainting the OP. The only other possibility that I see is that the TP will be used for this purpose.

[thisguy]

somebody kills rand and somebody else balefires the killer

[thisguy]

Just noticed something:

 

With his coming are the dread fires born again.

The hills burn, and the land turns sere.

The tides of men run out, and the hours dwindle.

The wall is pierced, and the veil of parting raised.

Storms rumble beyond the horizon, and the fires of heaven purge the earth.

There is no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death.

 

Unless there's already an explanation for this - it looks to me that the wall or barrier between life and death will be raised - we're told over and over how it's impossible to heal death - usually. But, when the DO touches the earth in a real way, that may not be true. So, Nynaeve and crew heal him.

Actually, I think Narishma might somehow travel over to wherever Rand goes when he dies to find him and bring him back. His name looks like Narasimha which is a avatar of Vishnu.

 

edit to add: It's also possible that Narshima is the one to kill Ish/Moridin

[Yeth]

Hi,

What do you think about taking LTT into consideration for the below words?

"Twice and twice shall he be marked,

twice to live and twice to die.

Once the heron, to set his path.= life as LTT

Twice the heron, to name him true.= as Rand, to be named the Dragon Reborn

Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.= LTT dying

Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay." = Rand, sacrificing something to win with the DO;

also,

"The two must be as one. To live, you must die." - it again might be connected to Rand finally merging with LTT, but for his survival LTT's part of the soul - his memories etc. must fade away from Rand so he may live in the current cycle but no more holding his predecessor's memories? Or the other way - to live they must die as separate beings in one body and merge (that one is already fulfilled).

[PerinGoldenEyes]

I have posted on here before about my idea on Rand's death and then living again.

I have to admit i have no clue on how he will die.

 

But anyway he will die and his soul will end up in TAR so this can happen (EGWENE DREAMING: A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important that he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness. [ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes, 203]) (thanks to Luckers for making that easy to just copy).

 

So my theory is that when Rand dies Nynaeve will go to TAR and rip him out of the dream like what happened to Birgitte, and as Nyneave saw Moghedien do it she now knows how it is done.

So while Rand is dying and eventually dies everyone else will be setting up the funeral pyre so they can destroy his body as soon as he passes so that when Nyneave rips him out of the dream he will come back with a brand new body (un damaged) instead of returning to his current damaged one.

 

If this was to be the way it happens it would be interesting to find out if he looked like himself or if he would look like LTT or maybe non of them and he would have all the memories of his previous lives and know what he has done wrong and possibly how to destroy the existing seals and make new ones properly to seal the DO up for good unless he just kills/ destroys the dark one, i would much prefer a battle with that outcome instead of him just sealing him up again.

This would also sort out that part about two becoming one because when people die and go to TAR they are just one soul with memories of every life they have lived.

So Rand wouldn't have two minds, just one mind with every memory he has ever lived through.

 

My only thought that says surely this can't be the way it happens is that I think Robert Jordan would want to do something completely different, but maybe he did that to Birgitte so that when it happens to Rand people didn't complain saying how is that possible or isn't that just healing death but as we now know it wasn't, Birgitte almost died again until Elayne bonded her and there was a question that I can't remember if it was answered?, is Birgitte still attached to the wheel or is she outside it an if this was to happen to Rand would he also be detatched from it?.

This could also make sense of the fact that this is the last time it will happen because Rand would no longer be spun out as he wouldn't be attached to the wheels turning anymore so he has to finish it or the dark one wins.

 

anyways let me know what you think about my idea.

 

[Rocky_Outcrop]

Just noticed something:

 

With his coming are the dread fires born again.

The hills burn, and the land turns sere.

The tides of men run out, and the hours dwindle.

The wall is pierced, and the veil of parting raised.

Storms rumble beyond the horizon, and the fires of heaven purge the earth.

There is no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death.

 

Unless there's already an explanation for this - it looks to me that the wall or barrier between life and death will be raised - we're told over and over how it's impossible to heal death - usually. But, when the DO touches the earth in a real way, that may not be true. So, Nynaeve and crew heal him.

Actually, I think Narishma might somehow travel over to wherever Rand goes when he dies to find him and bring him back. His name looks like Narasimha which is a avatar of Vishnu.

 

edit to add: It's also possible that Narshima is the one to kill Ish/Moridin

 

Best theory so far.

 

Body swap, to me, feels disingenuous.

Rip from TLR is unoriginal, done before, boring.

 

Given the way Nyn has ominously healed things which couldn't be healed, I believe, as readers we are rooting for her to save Rand. Especially now they've become close friends.

 

In light of a bit of a Terez related spat earlier in this thread where she stated that she is more knowledgable:

 

There is a big disparity between how much she knows about the WoT and her ability to communicate that in a polite, eloquent and empathetic manner.

 

She is clearly a dedicated, intelligent and hard working individual. I don't think that even she would expect people to defer to her interpretation of her knowledge, per se, but she places a lot of importance on fact and evidence.

 

I think in the gap between Terez's knowlege of WoT and her interpretation people can jump in and cause friction, one way or the other.

 

Sometimes people who know a lot about the series don't always prioritise politeness in their posts over presentation of their perceived facts, sometimes to the detriment of the overall discussion.

 

Edit - i deleted all the stuff from this post which was just me going over the top.

[thisguy]

Hey Rocky, thanks! Here's a little more info if you're interested. I later edited what I said to include that Narshima may kill Moridin because Narasimha killed an "atheistic" demon. Basically, while I wouldn't call Ish an atheist, he is a nihilist - he "believes in nozzing, Lebowski!"

 

Anyway, always fun to draw lines between dots and speculate.

 

By the way, did I read that you're from Scotland? I backpacked there in my early twenties for almost a month and a half. What a beautiful country.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

Thanks thisguy,

 

Scotland is amazing, that's for sure, we call ourselves the best small country in the world ;-). Although, we're extraordinarily biased.

 

You know, when I read the body swap theory and the idea that he'd be ripped from TLR I thought to myself "damnit, if I read that then it's not going to be a surprise now!" and as a result I've discussed those theories but always hoped they're wrong.

 

You can imagine my disappointment at reading your post - "Dammnnnnnnn, another one, that must be it then. Damn!"

 

But hat's off to you if you're right. I'm now of course hoping you're wrong! Haha, I'm driving myself crazy over here. I suspected death would be healed and the answer would be in the text, not some matter of convenience (I think you guys always call it Deus Ex)... But I'd not been able to see the quote anywhere that would allow death to be healed. And now I think you've found it. I'm pretty sure this didn't make it into the BUT thread either.

[Mark Molzner]

Just thought of this...

 

On another thread, the discussion was, "what form will the DO take when the seals are finally broken?". 1 theory is that he will inhabit SH, his personal Myrraddral (sp?).

 

It made me develop another theory, though it is very rough right now.

 

What if SH is already dead, or being what he is, cannot actually HOLD the DO's "spirit" for some reason. Could Rand's death in fact be required because the DO inhabits Rand's body?

 

Picure it: Rand is Shayol Ghul, holding Callandor, and the DO inhabits his body. The TP turns Callandor from crystal/white to black, and then Rand/DO is killed by Alivia per Min's visions.

 

As to how he comes back to life, I don't know. Perhaps Alivia uses Balefire, destroying Rand/DO back 24 hours (Thus the Kar Cycle's "Day dawns twice"), leaving Rand and the DO seperate again, and since you can't actually destroy the DO, at that moment Rand can't be destroyed either.

 

Like I said, a rough theory.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

Ahhh sounds a little bit like Harry Potter if you ask me! Not a fan of that ending to be honest with you, although I could see it happening.

 

What I don't think would be possible is for the DO to do this against Rand's will, otherwise what would be the point of getting Rand to turn to the dark side. What I"m saying is that possibly the way that the DO would win for good would be if Rand submitted willingly to this. What about the white light in Rand's head? That would be a problem for the DO too..

[Terez]

In light of a bit of a Terez related spat earlier in this thread where she stated that she is more knowledgable:

 

There is a big disparity between how much she knows about the WoT and her ability to communicate that in a polite, eloquent and empathetic manner.

 

She is clearly a dedicated, intelligent and hard working individual. I don't think that even she would expect people to defer to her interpretation of her knowledge, per se, but she places a lot of importance on fact and evidence.

 

I think in the gap between Terez's knowlege of WoT and her interpretation people can jump in and cause friction, one way or the other.

 

And yet here you are, talking about me behind my back as if it's somehow better.

 

Edit - i deleted all the stuff from this post which was just me going over the top.

 

You missed a few things.

 

PS—Wall pierced=Dragonwall. Perhaps that will put things in context. But what do I know?

[Drawwod]

I've read somewhere that birgette has been pulled out of the pattern bcoz of her being pulled out of TAR if that's the case and Rand is pulled out in a similar fashion then the Dragon will be pulled out of the pattern which will mean the DO has won. I personally think that Nyneave will heal death bcoz she's a stubborn woman that seems to be able to do anything she puts her mind to

[Shai-tan]

I've read somewhere that birgette has been pulled out of the pattern bcoz of her being pulled out of TAR if that's the case and Rand is pulled out in a similar fashion then the Dragon will be pulled out of the pattern which will mean the DO has won. I personally think that Nyneave will heal death bcoz she's a stubborn woman that seems to be able to do anything she puts her mind to

If Brigette has been pulled out of the partern why can Min read her still?....

[b3arz3rg3r]

I've read somewhere that birgette has been pulled out of the pattern bcoz of her being pulled out of TAR if that's the case and Rand is pulled out in a similar fashion then the Dragon will be pulled out of the pattern which will mean the DO has won. I personally think that Nyneave will heal death bcoz she's a stubborn woman that seems to be able to do anything she puts her mind to

If Brigette has been pulled out of the partern why can Min read her still?....

 

Birgitte was ripped out of TAR, not out of the Pattern. That's why the Pattern is rewriting her thread so that she forgets the memories of her old lives. She is still a hero of the Horn. This is just a very irregular incarnation for her.

[Drawwod]

Oooh! Thats makin. More sense now lol thanks guys

[thisguy]

Pg 617, Winter's Heart:

 

"Let go," Lan said quietly... "When the sun turns green, Rand told him..."

 

So, who thinks the sun turns green during the day that dawns twice?

[FarShainMael]

Pg 617, Winter's Heart:

 

"Let go," Lan said quietly... "When the sun turns green, Rand told him..."

 

So, who thinks the sun turns green during the day that dawns twice?

 

From the 'fun with foreshadowing' thread, my post 10..

 

http://www.dragonmou...reshadowing/#10

[thisguy]

Pg 617, Winter's Heart:

 

"Let go," Lan said quietly... "When the sun turns green, Rand told him..."

 

So, who thinks the sun turns green during the day that dawns twice?

 

From the 'fun with foreshadowing' thread, my post 10..

 

http://www.dragonmou...reshadowing/#10

Well, if the two of us think it's gonna happen, then it's gotta happen ;)