Roedran's death and Demandred

[Barid Bel Medar]

A common theory about the idenity of Demandred has to be that he is King Roedran of Murandy.

 

There is a lot of evidence to suggest so, and I have found something I believe is more proof.

 

(If you want more info on the Roedran = Demandred theory, have a look at this: https://docs.google....id.d40d74bfa538)

 

Roedran was a person, before Demandred (presumably) took over the role. He was a real person, not like Lord Brend or Samon. Thus, at some point Demandred had to have taken his place, I think I know when, and we have seen it on-screen.

 

In tDR 9: Wolf Dreams, I believe we see Roedran murdered in TAR, the beginning of Demandred's take over.

 

I direct everyone to this passage, while Perrin is wandering around TAR.

 

Other hallways crossed the one he ran along, at odd angles, sometimes decending, sometimes climbing. None looked any different from the passage he was in, though. Damp stone walls unbroken by doors, and strips of darkness.

 

As he came on one of those crossing halls, he skidded to a halt. A man stood there, blinking at him uncertainly, in a strangely cut coat and breeches, the coat flaring over his hips as the bottoms of the breeches flared over his boots. Both were bright yellow, and his boots were only a little paler.

 

"This is more than I can stand," the man said, to himself, not Perrin. He had an odd accent, quick and sharp. "Not only do I dream of peasants, now, but foreign peasants, from those clothes. Begone from my dreams, fellow!"

 

"Who are you?" Perrin asked. The man's eyebrows rose as if he were offended.

 

The strips of shadow around them writhed. One detached from he ceiling at one end and drifted down to touch the strange man's head. It appead to tangle in his hair. The man's eyes widened, and everything seemed to happen at once. The shadow jerked back to the ceiling, ten feet overhead, trailing something pale. Wet drops splattered Perrin's face. A bone-rattling shriek shattered the air.

 

Frozen, Perrin stared at the bloody shape wearing the man's clothes, screaming and thrashing on the floor. Unbidden, his eyes rose to the pale thing like an empty sack that dangled from the ceiling. Part of it was already absorbed by the black strip, but he had no trouble recognizing a human skin, apparently whole and unbroken.

 

I will start from the start of the passage and work my way down in explanation.

 

1. The halls that Perrin sees here are the ones he sees Ishamael, Lanfear, Be'lal and Rhavin in at various times during the book.

 

2. The man's clothes. This is the main reason I thought of it. It describes a Murandian style coat and breeches.

 

It is similar to this description from LoC

 

LoC: 5

 

..two tall lean men with curled moustaches, long Murandian coats in bright silk, and swords with ornate, gilded pommels and quillons. The fellow in the red coat stood grinning in amusement while he watched the one in the yellow shake a boy ...

 

3. The man is clearly of noble birth, dreaming about "peasants" is clearly unpleasant for him, and he is quite rude.

 

Also an indication of his status when Perrin asks who he is, he seems offended, or suprised that he didn't know. Not sure if he is King at the time, however, his position still was high and noteworthy, Suian remembers him from years ago, and what he was like.

 

4. The major problem with the theory, although I don't particularly see it as damning evidence against, is the accent. Murandy accent is supposedly "lilting" whereas this man's is "quick and sharp". This is not really a big deal for me, there are suitible explanations, such as the difference between commoner and nobility, or personal experience, or simply a personal affectation. It fits with Demandred's tone, so perhaps he chose a person with an accent suited to him.

 

5.The "skinning" itself is highly suggestive. It basically mimics what Demandred has done, if he indeed is masquerading as Roedran. I am not suggesting that he actually put that skin over himself, or something like that, or if the skinning was in any way involved in the physical change. I think it is more the symbolic gesture.

 

6. Evidence suggests that Demandred had taken over Roedran's person as early as tDR, when in Illian, where Moiraine confirms Sammael has taken up residence, the Illian army, speaking of war with Tear, actually face north, towards Murandy.

 

We learn that Sammael is particularly worried about this, in LoC, when he tells Graendal to tell Demandred not to interfere with Illian. And they don't like each other at all.

 

So, conclusion: Yellow-coat-that-got-skinned = Roedran, the original person.

[TLHansum]

Very well presented

[fikkie77]

Seems pretty clear to me.

The skinning is a very strange thing to tell on screen, if it doesn't have any meaning.

[Naggash]

I'm doubtful about this...I mean, it actually seems pretty clear but Brandon said that finding out Demandred's position and activities would prove more difficult than guessing Asmodean's killer.

Well, the theory approved by Jordan regarding this is much more complex than just one dream that seems to match.

Maybe Brandon said it would be dificult because the skinning wasn't a fact that most people would remember as more than TAR-Forsaken-usual-bullying-on-our-boys; but I don't think so.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I'm doubtful about this...I mean, it actually seems pretty clear but Brandon said that finding out Demandred's position and activities would prove more difficult than guessing Asmodean's killer.

Well, the theory approved by Jordan regarding this is much more complex than just one dream that seems to match.

Maybe Brandon said it would be dificult because the skinning wasn't a fact that most people would remember as more than TAR-Forsaken-usual-bullying-on-our-boys; but I don't think so.

 

I am not sure you understand what this means exactly

 

1. Figuring out Graendal killed Asmodean was fairly simple. It has nothing to do with the theory of HOW she did it. Graendal was always a favourite for Asmodean killing. The clues in the book are pretty major.

 

2. This is not a theory of Roedran = Demandred. This is assuming that one has already come to the conclusion that Roedran is Demandred. By itself, the dream is obscure, and there is no way to guess at it.

 

 

Have a read of this from Terez, you will see that the Roedran theory is a LOT harder to spot than Graendal killed Asmodean.

 

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1ZRCuJYkRKAb5rDYbSprvo-aC7Uqht5KMqMAX609ADPg#id.d40d74bfa538

[Thrasymachus]

I'm not sure where you're seeing the parallels between the description of the clothes. The only things that seem alike are the color. The Murandian tough is wearing a yellow coat and this fellow in the dream is wearing a yellow coat. A coat that flares at the hips the way the pants flare at the boots implies to me a shorter, at most medium-length coat, certainly nothing that goes past the knees or that would require dividing for riding, which I would consider long. And the accent is different than it should be, quick and sharp, which speaks more to Cairhienin than Murandian, though I don't suggest this fellow is Cairhienin, since a Cairhienin noble should be wearing black. I'm not suggesting that you're wrong, though, but the characterization of the clothes themselves don't seem all that compelling a parallel to me.

[JakeBarnes]

If Demandred were in Murandy during tDR, and had been uniting the factions afterward, don't you think he would recognize Elayne in LOC chapter 7?

[TootThatHorn]

i like it

[Cybertrolloc]

So why has BS been consistantly lying about it then if true?

 

Additionally you can do much better than opening with an "everyone thinks" whatever the logical fallacy is :)

[Barid Bel Medar]

If Demandred were in Murandy during tDR, and had been uniting the factions afterward, don't you think he would recognize Elayne in LOC chapter 7?

 

What are you referencing? Why should he?

 

So why has BS been consistantly lying about it then if true?

 

 

What are you talking about? Nobody has been lying about anything.

 

Brandon and RJ have said that Demandred's alter ego hasn't been seen as of KoD.

 

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 19th, 2009

TGS Signing Report - Matrimony Cauthon (Paraphrased)

 

QUESTION

Someone asked for clarification about whether we had seen Mesanna and Demandred's alter-egos on screen.

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Sanderson said that we had seen Mesaana's alter-ego on screen as of Knife of Dreams, but that we had not seen Demandred's alter-ego on screen as of Knife of Dreams.

 

INTERVIEW: Jan 16th, 2003

COT Signing Report - Michael Martin

 

MICHAEL MARTIN

 

Have we yet seen the alter ego Demandred presents to the Third Agers on-screen?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

 

NO.

 

 

Roedran the real man, however, is not Demandred-in-guise. It doesn't go against anything Rj or Brandon said. Since it was not Demandred's alter ego. It was Roedran himself.

 

I was stating that it was the most popular theory, however, I changed it for you

[Terez]

In a way, I like the theory, but I'm not sure they would have split hairs so far on something like this. RJ only answered the question once, and it's a signing report (though the guy said he asked twice to make sure), but it still seems a stretch to me. It's also a little odd to kill Roedran randomly that way in Tel'aran'rhiod. Why?

[Barid Bel Medar]

In a way, I like the theory, but I'm not sure they would have split hairs so far on something like this. RJ only answered the question once, and it's a signing report (though the guy said he asked twice to make sure), but it still seems a stretch to me. It's also a little odd to kill Roedran randomly that way in Tel'aran'rhiod. Why?

 

Why kill anyone in this manner? I have no idea. The main reason I suggested it was because it is so random and...pointless, as you say, it is odd. I can't think of any reason this was put in the books, apart from this. The detail that is given seems too specific for something random. The actual skinning, I saw to be a more symbolic gesture, rather than any practical use. The first 3 books are rife with foreshadowing examples like this, it just seemed right.

 

It is a stretch, I admit. Although I might disagree that it was not something they would split hairs on. RJ and Brandon both like giving Aes Sedai answers. If anyone would, it would be RJ. But I know that it is splitting hairs, and thus a stretch.

 

I don't think it would be a lie, or cheating if it was Roedran. The guy is not named, nor really has any part to play, and is only seen for a paragraph then dies. I don't think it would be considered as Roedran seen onscreen. We have just seen some random guy. It would be difficult to answer that with "has been seen" as it really confuses the issue. It isn't like it is a vital clue either. It doesn't count Roedran out, as we have no idea who this person is. Meh, again, splitting hairs. I am under no illusions that this theory is perfect, or even remotely true, I just thought it was a good idea.

[Luckers]

The oddity may be more to do with early book TAR than Roedan dying.

[Barid Bel Medar]

The oddity may be more to do with early book TAR than Roedan dying.

 

Do you mean that it's purpose was to show the mechanics of TAR? And the person was not important in any way? It could be. It just seems strange to me, why wouldn't they just have some random person die like that in the background or something?

 

Why would RJ detail the guy's clothing accent and nobility? If it was any other book, I would say you were correct, but with RJ, especially the first 3, nothing is done without purpose. I mean, Almen Blunt turns up again 12 books later!

 

Even if it is not Roedran, I still think it may be something, someone, of importance to the story. Not like a vital piece, but SOME significance.

[Luckers]

I meant RJ was still playing around with the concept of Tel'aran'rhiod at this stage, and him choosing to have Roedran there, and being killed there, may have more to do with RJ introducing TAR and, more specifically, the Forsaken using TAR, than it does about Roedran's death.

 

I'm not saying that he didn't specifically know why he chose that guy and all that, I'm just saying that the depiction itself may have more to do with TAR.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Ahh, yeah fair enough. I think that is probable. It was the book where TAR was really introduced, and this was one of the first scenes with Perrin/Wolf Dream.

[Cybertrolloc]

I have more than a few pet peeves commonly seen in posts here, but that one probably makes me rage the most. Thx for the change :)

 

Forgot to mention that I did like, though not so much as Matandred (he was gone for a whole book, anything could have happened lol).

[yoniy0]

I actually think this is a good idea. I mean, as Barid says, there are actually not that many irrelevant details in the books. At the time, reading the passage, I figured it's meant to show us how dangerous this place was⁽¹⁾. But in retrospect, that's weak. Regardless of who Demandred is, this is precisely the manner in which we would've gotten what little evidence there is about it (and we know that there is that). As to the skinning, the shadows were definitely doing something there. Considering the oddness of these hallways (screaming skulls etc.), it could even have something to do with extracting stuff that Demandred would need later (though that's a stretch, considering how Semirhage was latter required in order to construct Aran'gar's cover).

 

(1) Side note. I don't believe this place is pure tel'aran'rhiod. It does things that we haven't seen elsewhere, and it exhibits Thakan'dar skies even though the Blight isn't supposed to be reflected in TAR. This has to either be a major early-bookism, or some mix between the oddity of Shayol Ghul and TAR. I'm leaning toward the latter.

[GYLD]

The clothing seems to fit more of what we know of Tairen styles than it does Murandian. The 13th Depository blog has pretty comprehensive write ups on clothing from the various nations, which I'll be using as a reference along with some quotes.

 

http://13depository....art-2.html#tear

 

Here it's noted that Tairens wear coats that flare around the waist. What's more is that yellow is a color known to be worn by Tairen High Lords.

 

From The Dragon Reborn, Into the Stone:

The blue eyed man [Darlin] certainly wore the puffy-sleeved coat, yellow with threads of gold stripes, but it was all undone, his shirt only half tucked in his breeches, and his feet bare.

 

From A Crown of Swords, Into the Woods

Despite [Darlin's] yellow Tairen coat, the fat sleeves striped with green satin, eyes of a startling pretty blue looked out his damp, dark face.

 

That Perrin failed to notice any embroidery might suggest that the person was a minor lord of Tear as they are known to wear yellow embroidery.

 

Edit: Upon further inspection, it would appear I was a bit too eager to validate my idea. It is the commoners in Tear who wear coats that flare around the waist. Still, that Tairen nobility is more known for wearing yellow than Murandians should at least count for something.

[mb]

As requested by another member, I am copying a post I made in another thread.

Here::

Demandred is not (and never was) that Telaranrhiod guy. Both authors told that Demandred's alias did not appear on screen up through Knife of Dreams.

As far as I am aware, the guy's identity has not yet been revealed.

 

 

What I did not post there::

I take only Mesaana impersonated someone that was alive at least long ago.

 

Those who die in Telaranrhiod (while sleeping in waking world) I take are actually put into a perpetual sleep. I doubt anyone (even a Forsaken) could wake them up.

[yoniy0]

mb, I think they were referring to Demandred's PoV in the Andoran throne room, in tel'aran'rhiod. While Demandred never appeared in his alter ago, he did have several appearances as himself.

[dazparra]

i disagree with this theory and say that u are basing ur presumption upon very little evidence. while it may turn out that u are right, u have no supporting evidence for your theory as yet.

Personally i think Demandred has taken up residence in Shara

it would make the most sense as he was allied with Messena and Semirhage... Semihage comes from the west with the Seanchan, Demandred from the east with the Sharans and Messena plots herself in the white tower to weaken them and prepare them for the strike.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Read OP fully. The theory is detailed by Terez, this is not a theory proving Demandred- Roedran. It is supposing that one already agrees with it. I am cool with anyone against Demandred-Roedran, but this isn't a thread about debating the veracity of the idea.

 

Re: Fashion and Tear.

 

I can't claim to know much about fashion, even less about that in Wheel of Time. However, the Tear fashion has baggy pants tucked into boots, or cloggs, IIRC. . It doesn't seem that similar. The yellow is not the coat itself, but the threaded lace that is coloured gold for high nobility, and yellow for the lower nobles.

 

Also, the commoner garb, while it does have the flaring coat, is supposedly long and dark, and again, the pants are tucked into boots/cloggs.

 

Murandy doesn't tell us much except a heap of lace and bright, long coats.

 

Not sure exactly how long the coat in the dream was, flaring over the hips, I admit, I have little idea what it looks like, but a bit of searching, it seems like it flares like a skirt type thing, which would be considerably longer than hip-length. It seems to me a lot like the picture of the coat in the 13th Depository. Meh, I can't really say though. Fashion is not my forte.

 

No mention of lace in the passage, but I don't know if RJ would, it would give it away far too easily. And Perrin isn't exactly a fashion buff, he wouldn't be scrutinizing it that closely, specially since he is in the Wolf Dream.

[Terez]

Thanks for reminding me I need to add a bit about Sammael's army preparing to attack Murandy in TDR.

[Durinax]

Terez how long did it take you to compile that whole essay on Demandred and Murandy?