Aging with the Power

[Bromo Sapien]

How does aging work for Power-people, both trained and untrained, specifically in terms of looks and biological things like menopause? Does that affect channellers at their "mid-age" (~80 or so) or is it a specific number of years for everyone? I would assume the later based on my understanding of biology, but magic makes everything go haywire.

 

Also, there have been some discrepancies in the book in terms of how the power affects looks. The Kin live longer and age proportionally to their extended life, but then we have Sharina who does look normal for her age. And if Sharina started channelling late, will the extended life benefit kick in now and add another X amount of years on or is it too late for her?

 

And does this work for male channellers as well? Flinn is an old man. The questions with concerns to Sharina relate to him as well. I guess there can't be a definitive answer since male channellers who used their power haven't lived past ~40 at the latest since the Breaking.

 

A lot of questions, I know...

[Naggash]

How does aging work for Power-people, both trained and untrained, specifically in terms of looks and biological things like menopause? Does that affect channellers at their "mid-age" (~80 or so) or is it a specific number of years for everyone? I would assume the later based on my understanding of biology, but magic makes everything go haywire.

 

Also, there have been some discrepancies in the book in terms of how the power affects looks. The Kin live longer and age proportionally to their extended life, but then we have Sharina who does look normal for her age. And if Sharina started channelling late, will the extended life benefit kick in now and add another X amount of years on or is it too late for her?

 

And does this work for male channellers as well? Flinn is an old man. The questions with concerns to Sharina relate to him as well. I guess there can't be a definitive answer since male channellers who used their power haven't lived past ~40 at the latest since the Breaking.

 

A lot of questions, I know...

Well, I can't say anything about menopause, because in the books is always said that Aes Sedai almost never have kids, and the whole thing isn't explained at all, but the power plainly makes them age slower than normal people. I think you can be pretty sure all beological facts apply. It's not a magic-like thing, they simply age slower with all the consecuences.

 

There is no discrepance. The Power makes people age slowly, extending the lifespan to 450-500 year or more (Alivia is 600 if I remember correctly). The Aes Sedai have their facial distinction because of the Bonding Staff (hope that's the name in english), that also shortens their lifespan to half. Without the BS, there is no physical difference between a channeler and normal people.

 

Sharina looks normal for her age bacause she's not a channeler until she becomes novice. She had to LEARN.

 

About people that are already old, the life extension will also take effect, but IMO it's clear that they won't live as long as someone who starts retarding at 18. Maybe the last will live 500 years and the first 350. But this is my opinion, because I don't recall anything in the books about that matter.

[yoniy0]

That's correct, you have to actively channel in order to slow (Sharina and Flinn both started channeling only recently). You will, however, begin to slow even then, and RJ once said that Sharina would appear to be getting younger over time.

In addition, it's probably worth noting that Ilyena had young children, and she was married to LTT for a long time, so slowing affects a woman's fertility as well.

 

BTW, it's called an Oath Rod in English, and the usual abbreviation is OR.

[Maleshub]

Another note is that the Oath Rod is a fool-proof contraceptive. Women bound by the Oath Rod will not bear children. And it has been recently proven that the Oath Rod shortens the lifespan of channelers by half.

[yoniy0]

Another note is that the Oath Rod is a fool-proof contraceptive. Women bound by the Oath Rod will not bear children.

I actually never heard that before. Is that from the Guide (and are you absolutely certain about it)?

[Maleshub]

Another note is that the Oath Rod is a fool-proof contraceptive. Women bound by the Oath Rod will not bear children.

I actually never heard that before. Is that from the Guide (and are you absolutely certain about it)?

 

I am going by my aging memory of earlier forum discussions. So, I am not absolutely certain about it. It would need to be confirmed by a more knowledgeable person.

[Naggash]

Another note is that the Oath Rod is a fool-proof contraceptive. Women bound by the Oath Rod will not bear children.

I actually never heard that before. Is that from the Guide (and are you absolutely certain about it)?

I'm not sure either but I do think I've read that before.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the OR (thanks for that yoniy0) was the mechanism used in the AoL to punish thieves, murderers, etc wasn't it?

If that's correct it would match the contraceptive effect as part of the punishment.

[RandA lThor]

Some Aes Sedai do get married though, so they can't have children?

[Lacanos]

It's simply not true that the Oath Rod is a contraceptive.

 

To put this into context:

It was put forth as early as the second book that Aes Sedai not having children was the reason that the population of channelers was dying out, and reference was made to debate as to whether they should be doing so. At this point, the fact that the Oath Rod could remove oaths was only known to very few.

[Naggash]

It's simply not true that the Oath Rod is a contraceptive.

 

To put this into context:

It was put forth as early as the second book that Aes Sedai not having children was the reason that the population of channelers was dying out, and reference was made to debate as to whether they should be doing so. At this point, the fact that the Oath Rod could remove oaths was only known to very few.

I was aware of that. But I think it isn't conclusive.

I mean...I'm quite sure no AS has tried to have children since the Breaking. There are few AS having that kind of relations at all, and the ones that do probably use good contraceptives (they have knowledge and money).

If one or two or three of them have tried...well, not everyone can have children, and even if you can it's not so easy if you're unlucky. And it isn't the kind of thing an AS would discuss with another one (close friends maybe...nothing more), they're too reserved.

With this I try to say that them debating as to have children or not doesn't clarify anything because they could not know the contraceptive effects of the OR at all, as they dont know the life-reduction effects.

[TootThatHorn]

It's simply not true that the Oath Rod is a contraceptive.

 

To put this into context:

It was put forth as early as the second book that Aes Sedai not having children was the reason that the population of channelers was dying out, and reference was made to debate as to whether they should be doing so. At this point, the fact that the Oath Rod could remove oaths was only known to very few.

 

i wanna say to that min has had viewings of at least one AS that was gonna have a child IIRC

[Naggash]

i wanna say to that min has had viewings of at least one AS that was gonna have a child IIRC

Oh, that may be considered more definitive.

You made a good point, but still I believe that may mean Egwene achieves her goal of making the Kin a retirement for the AS. I think it's said in the books that the non-husband-children rule could be removed as the wouldn't need to keep hiding.

But because of your point I'm a lot less confident in it now...because the retirement would be made at their 300s minimum, an age in which I would assume they aren't fertile.

Yeah I think your point clears it, the OR isn't contraceptive.

If you're right, obviously xDDD Can someone confirm that viewing.

[Knivy]

I thought it said that few AS have had children, not none?

[Omega]

Wasn't it said at one point in the earlier books (or on more than one occasion) that one of the AS would carry someone's child to achieve their goals? Specifically wasnt it one of the ones who tried to heal Rand after his encounter with Fain, recieving the second wound in his side. I don't remember her name off hand but she had offered Flinn something like gold, or posessions or carrying his child, if he would try and describe what he had done to heal him.

 

I could be wrong, but if thats accurate I cant expect that she had knowledge of Egwene's plan for the Kin, or the Oath Rod removing oaths. I don't think the Oath Rod prevents conception. I just think the AS are more practical about it, and generally don't marry or partake in much sexual activity. Where would you raise a child in the tower anyway?

[TootThatHorn]

Wasn't it said at one point in the earlier books (or on more than one occasion) that one of the AS would carry someone's child to achieve their goals? Specifically wasnt it one of the ones who tried to heal Rand after his encounter with Fain, recieving the second wound in his side. I don't remember her name off hand but she had offered Flinn something like gold, or posessions or carrying his child, if he would try and describe what he had done to heal him.

 

I could be wrong, but if thats accurate I cant expect that she had knowledge of Egwene's plan for the Kin, or the Oath Rod removing oaths. I don't think the Oath Rod prevents conception. I just think the AS are more practical about it, and generally don't marry or partake in much sexual activity. Where would you raise a child in the tower anyway?

 

ya where is the daycare for the WT? for being an organisation comprised of women they sure are behind the times on their benefits for working there

 

edit: and if i had a kid in there, i would throw a fit if some red tried babysitting lol

[Mr Ares]

I thought it said that few AS have had children, not none?

It does indeed say that. CoT 10: "very few Aes Sedai ever bore children".

[Omega]

I thought it said that few AS have had children, not none?

It does indeed say that. CoT 10: "very few Aes Sedai ever bore children".

 

If that's the case, (i'll have to dig out my CoT) then that seems a pretty clear indication that the Oath Rod doesn't act as contraception. The question I guess would become for how long they were fertile. Would that length of time increase with the slow aging process, I.E. pushing back menopause as well? Not sure we'll ever know lol.

[spoke]

or better yet, since the Oath Rod creates a tightening of the skin, would that mean the periodic pain of breast tenderness would be amplified? Would the lengthening of lifespan during the fertile time of life cause the periods to last several years, and thus result in an absolutely long and drawn out PMS? Maybe this is why Aes Sedai seldom have children (same goes for kin), because that nasty PMS makes them want to kill someone?

 

Now I know where the Three Oaths, come from. Some PMS enraged Aes Sedai killed her Warder due to some serious PMS, and so the ruling counsel of Aes sedai got together and said, hey lets use this device, it will make it more difficult to kill your man during a bad period, and as an added benifit, it will shorten the menstral cycle making that "time of the month" shorter.

[David Selig]

Faile told Perrin in ACOS "“Is there anything an Aes Sedai would not do, or put up with, if the White Tower told her to? I have studied my history, and I was taught to read between the lines. Mashera Donavelle bore seven children for a man she loathed, whatever the stories say."

 

I've considered the idea that the Oath Rod might work as a contraceptive before, but it doesn't seem to work not just because of the quote above. None of the other Aes Sedai see E;ayne as a big deal, which it should be if she was the first pregnant Aes Sedai since they implemented the Oaths. Indications are that while Aes Sedai very rarely have children, it still happens.

 

*edit* I fixed the quote by adding the part which made it relevant to the discussion at hand.

[Knivy]

There was Elayne's concern on the oath rod's affect on her children though...

[RandA lThor]

That quote is the thing that I was lookig for to, thanks for finding it.

[yoniy0]

I'm not sure Mashera Donavelle was AS, but regardless, correct me if I'm wrong: wasn't the Oath against making weapons already in place by the Trolloc Wars? Didn't Aemon and Eldrene have kids?

[bsmnt23]

There was Elayne's concern on the oath rod's affect on her children though...

 

Elayne wasnt nessessarily concerned about the Oath Rod itself affecting her babes, but the actual ter'angreal-enforced Oaths affecting them. She doesnt know if they'll be able to channel and thus become Aes Sedai, but she does know her daughter will grow up to become Queen of Andor. What kind of head of state can you be if you can't lie?

 

The idea of the OR being a contraceptive ot the use thereof is a bar to having children is preposterous, unless you swear an oath on it that you will never concieve a child, or bring a child to term while under oath. Aes Sedai dont have children because in their own insular society they just...don't. The White Tower is so named for a reason; ivory towers tend to bring out the superiority in a person.

[David Selig]

I'm not sure Mashera Donavelle was AS, but regardless, correct me if I'm wrong: wasn't the Oath against making weapons already in place by the Trolloc Wars? Didn't Aemon and Eldrene have kids?

Mashera was an Aes Sedai (according to Faile), I screwed up and inadvertantly deleted the first part of the passage I wanted to quote.

[yoniy0]

Oh, that's right. I should've checked before I said anything (too lazy for my own good). Well, the same problem remains, however. When did she live?