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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Forsaken and the Horn


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At the end of the last age the Forsaken were created when they turned to the Dark One after the prison was opened. Before that there wasn't any knowledge about the Dark Ones Prison the Aes Sedai were fiddling with stuff they didn't understand.

 

The 13 Forsaken were among the most talented Aes Sedai around.

 

So the question I have for theory land is this. Could the Forsaken be bound to the Horn? Now stay with me here.

 

A person can always be saved by turning to the light no matter how long they walk in the shadow.

 

The Forsaken are definitely worthy of legendary status.

 

So in other ages the Forsaken could be good guys and fight along with the Dragon.

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I think I'm beginning to hate the Horn of Valere. The answer to your question is "yes." The reason the answer is "yes" is because we lack a coherent and comprehensive theory about how the Horn works, how souls are picked to become Heroes, and what the hell Tel'aran'Rhiod has to do with any of it. Basically, because we don't know how any of it works, we're not in a position to rule anything out. Or to put it another way, given what we know about the Horn of Valere, the next time Mat blows it, instead of Artur Hawkwing and all the rest of the gang, Dizzy Gillespie and Chuck Berry and a whole band of jazz musicians will pop out and Break the Third Age with their awesome bebob.

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Awesome response, Thrasymachus, and I agree with it 100%. I get frustrated reading most threads about the Horn and Heroes, because there's just too much we don't know. I've heard 100 reasons why every character in the series is either already a Hero, or why they're going to become one soon.

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So the question I have for theory land is this. Could the Forsaken be bound to the Horn?

 

No. RJ said that it would be pointless to make a Darkfriend into a corrective mechanism; the Horn is the Light's balance against the Dark One's powers. Heroes can be influenced by the Shadow and even turned by various means as we've seen with Rand, but the Forsaken all turned of their own free will.

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What you're saying implies that a Hero of the Horn can't turn to the Shadow during one of their lifetimes.

If the Champion of the Light could be turned, then a Hero of the Horn could also.

 

So, I won't be even that surprised if one of the dead Forsaken turned up among the Heroes to fight for the Dragon. On the other hand, I'm having a hard time to see one of them as a Hero, as they mostly acted as utter failures.

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-A Hero could be born and turn to the Shadow and even become a Forsaken.

-We have no idea if any of the Forsaken are Heroes.

-Just because a person is talented or skilled in an area doesn't mean they're a Hero.

-The souls of the Forsaken have likely lived many normal, non-evil lives in previous lives.

-The Forsaken aren't reborn for the soul purpose of being Forsaken or to serve the Shadow. They're people who were alive at a specific time who made their own choices.

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What you're saying implies that a Hero of the Horn can't turn to the Shadow during one of their lifetimes.

If the Champion of the Light could be turned, then a Hero of the Horn could also.

 

To me it read like a Forsaken who may consistently serve the Shadow through various lifetimes would not be bound to the horn. Since we see many character traits repeated time and time again in the heroes I believe it is safe to assume that happens for at least some of the Forsaken. They would have traits that consistently push theme to the Shadow. That is fairly different than them being turned a few times over the years.

Edited by Suttree
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-A Hero could be born and turn to the Shadow and even become a Forsaken.

-We have no idea if any of the Forsaken are Heroes.

-Just because a person is talented or skilled in an area doesn't mean they're a Hero.

-The souls of the Forsaken have likely lived many normal, non-evil lives in previous lives.

-The Forsaken aren't reborn for the soul purpose of being Forsaken or to serve the Shadow. They're people who were alive at a specific time who made their own choices.

 

This is what I think to

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As long as the DO does the whole "body switching" thing a forsaken never dies and can not then be tied to the HoV. The forsaken are not actually reborn then.

 

Secondly, why would the forsaken be heroes in the first place? Being an anti-hero does not give you automatic Hero status if you were to switch sides. Remember many of the forsaken went to the shadow precisely because they were not the heroes. The forsaken are just the best of the Shadow, and would not be the best if compared to the Heroes of the Light. If the heroes tied to the HoV had the character flaws (many of which seem to stem from petty jealousy) would they even be Heroes? If the forsaken were tied to the HoV they would not need the DO to give them immortality the Wheel would have done that already.

 

To put it simply. I think the character flaws/ weaknesses of the Forsaken preclude them from ever having been tied to the HoV. Do heroes give up when all seems hopeless and turn to the shadow? Do heroes let jealousy and inferiority blind them to the Light? And if they manage to find the inner strength to overcome their character flaws they might not qualify as a hero when compared to the people the were jealous of.

Edited by Mhaliah
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The thing is the Forsaken were not reborn by the Dark One at the end of the last age. They just went to the Shadow. And you could say that one or more of the Forsaken switch sides and fight for the side of the light in the last battle that that would be kind of Heroic. I think a lot of the basis for Heroes of the Horn is based on Brigitte. She seems to live a more active life from her stories than others. There could be heroes that didn't do much for most of there life until the end where they do monumental heroic things. Switching to the side of the light for a Forsaken would kind of fit that bill.

 

Like a lot of people say it's hard to work in the Horn of Valere.

 

Besides they have been such a major part of the pattern for thousands of years they have to be tied back in somehow. Otherwise the pattern would unravel.

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Too much depends on your theory of the role of the Heroes in the Pattern, and we just don't have enough information about that to make a decent judgment. My own theory contrasts Heroes with ta'veren. With ta'veren, we know that there isn't necessarily anything innately special about the thread that is ta'veren, it's the Weaving of the Wheel that makes a thread ta'veren, when it weaves a bunch of other threads around it. I liken Heroes to being "special thread." You can think of them as being analogous to threads of a different "color" or "texture" than your normal, run-of-the-mill threads. If that theory is true, then there's no reason any of the Forsaken couldn't be Heroes, but also no reason a thread would have to do something we would recognize as "heroic" to be separated out as a Hero, they just have to be different and iconic enough to justify separating that thread out from all the rest of the normal threads.

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From what I can tell, the Heroes of the Horn are not so much just legendary souls as they are actual archetypes of heroism that have been given life by the Wheel to fulfill certain roles. Those roles seem to be analogous to the heroes and myths of our own world, the easiest example of which would be Birgitte Silverbow fulfilliing the role of the archetypal huntress ala Diana.

 

As a reflection of the Pattern in all its forms and the world in which all dreams originate, it seems to me that Tel'Aran'Rhiod's connection is clear: In the dreams of men, the stories and archetypes continue to live on even after the bodies that spawned them are killed. In this way, the Heroes can remember everything about themselves while they exist solely within T'A'R because they are literally those stories given life, and those stories persist in the subconcious collective of humanity. The Wheel then spins those storied archetypes out, and while they have new bodies their memories become soley those of the new body until once again they return to the archetypal pool from which they originate.

 

The Great Lord of the Dark is shown time and time again to have abilities not connected to the Wheel itself- as 'he' is a being from outside of the Wheel's influence. It seems likely to me that if there were any Heroes among anyone who went to the Shadow, their link to the Horn would be broken forever by virtue of this outre form of power the DO exibits. So long as he cares to keep snatching their souls up, they wouldn't be reborn by the Wheel's spinning.

 

Of course, being archetypes of heroism itself, it also seems likely to me that those who are bound to the Horn might not ever consider becoming Friends of the Dark- and aside from the 13x13 method, an act of free will is certainly required to give oneself over to the Shadow.

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter, though as others have pointed out: we just don't know enough about it to say for certain.

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I think I'm beginning to hate the Horn of Valere. The answer to your question is "yes." The reason the answer is "yes" is because we lack a coherent and comprehensive theory about how the Horn works, how souls are picked to become Heroes,

 

Actually RJ said somewhere that people become bound to the Horn through acts of sacrifice. Cant remember where he said it though but he did.

 

So Mat and Verin might make it onto the list. I doubt the Forsaken will. I imagine its sacrificing for the sake of the Pattern, which I doubt the Forsaken will ever do. Unless they find out the truth about the Dark Ones plans of course. But even if they did and left the Shadow I doubt anything they sacrificed will be of significant enough worth.

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I think I'm beginning to hate the Horn of Valere. The answer to your question is "yes." The reason the answer is "yes" is because we lack a coherent and comprehensive theory about how the Horn works, how souls are picked to become Heroes,

 

Actually RJ said somewhere that people become bound to the Horn through acts of sacrifice. Cant remember where he said it though but he did.

 

So Mat and Verin might make it onto the list. I doubt the Forsaken will. I imagine its sacrificing for the sake of the Pattern, which I doubt the Forsaken will ever do. Unless they find out the truth about the Dark Ones plans of course. But even if they did and left the Shadow I doubt anything they sacrificed will be of significant enough worth.

The mistake you are making is that people are not bound to the Horn, souls are. I agree that the Forsaken never acted heroic, but they might have done in previous lives, which may have bound them to the Horn. They might have done heroic things when the DO was still unknown to the world, but fell for him when he broke free.

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Some people here are mixing two things together, the one is the WoT creating the pattern and it's use of ta'veren and normal souls in achieving it's 'goal' and the other is the horn and the heros bound to it.

The WoT doesn't care about good and evil, it's only goal is the continuity of the world/pattern.

And the horn is, afaik, a man made weapon. But we know nothing about how the makers decided, which souls are to be bound. Since it is a weapon and the hornblower decides when and where to use it, the deciding factor could be just plain old power/strength and not morality

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Moghedion knew Birgitte was Birgitte when she was alive in the AoL. That might indicate that with her abilities in TAR she could find out about the heroes that lived there, and make conclusions based on who was missing. Or it might of just been a lucky guess.

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-A Hero could be born and turn to the Shadow and even become a Forsaken.

-We have no idea if any of the Forsaken are Heroes.

-Just because a person is talented or skilled in an area doesn't mean they're a Hero.

-The souls of the Forsaken have likely lived many normal, non-evil lives in previous lives.

-The Forsaken aren't reborn for the soul purpose of being Forsaken or to serve the Shadow. They're people who were alive at a specific time who made their own choices.

It would be interesting to find out the history with Jain Farstrider. Even people we came to like (Verin and Ingtar) were Darkfriends, each for their own reason. Verin did it as a self-sacrifice to deal a final blow to the Black Ajah, Ingtar gave in because he could see Shinar being eaten up by the Blight and no end to the Trollocs and fades. Jain wanted other Malkieri to know that he died clean and we know he was seen with Graendal. With the emphasis of his gnarled fingers looking to have every bone broken suggests torture, he might have been forced to serve the shadow. Possibly, as sorrowful as he is of his wife's death, she was killed due to him or she was killed in the fall of Malkier by the shadow while he was off gallavanting around.

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Moghedion knew Birgitte was Birgitte when she was alive in the AoL. That might indicate that with her abilities in TAR she could find out about the heroes that lived there, and make conclusions based on who was missing. Or it might of just been a lucky guess.

 

Which brings to question how many others does Moghedion know are heroes? Does she know that Nyenieve is a hero? Is that why she has a sore spot with Nyenieve? Could Moghedion go around and find the heroes that are currently alive and kill them?

 

So many questions not enough books.

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Some people here are mixing two things together, the one is the WoT creating the pattern and it's use of ta'veren and normal souls in achieving it's 'goal' and the other is the horn and the heros bound to it.

The WoT doesn't care about good and evil, it's only goal is the continuity of the world/pattern.

And the horn is, afaik, a man made weapon. But we know nothing about how the makers decided, which souls are to be bound. Since it is a weapon and the hornblower decides when and where to use it, the deciding factor could be just plain old power/strength and not morality

 

Unlikely. The Prophecy of the Horn, quoted by Moiraine (TGH5), says "Let whosoever sounds me think not of glory, but only of salvation'.

 

@1Brotherbill: Never mind Moggy, there's a theory going round that Slayer was looking for Heroes in T'A'R to kill them there, and so unbind them from the Horn forever.

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I think I'm beginning to hate the Horn of Valere. The answer to your question is "yes." The reason the answer is "yes" is because we lack a coherent and comprehensive theory about how the Horn works, how souls are picked to become Heroes,

 

Actually RJ said somewhere that people become bound to the Horn through acts of sacrifice. Cant remember where he said it though but he did.

 

So Mat and Verin might make it onto the list. I doubt the Forsaken will. I imagine its sacrificing for the sake of the Pattern, which I doubt the Forsaken will ever do. Unless they find out the truth about the Dark Ones plans of course. But even if they did and left the Shadow I doubt anything they sacrificed will be of significant enough worth.

The mistake you are making is that people are not bound to the Horn, souls are. I agree that the Forsaken never acted heroic, but they might have done in previous lives, which may have bound them to the Horn. They might have done heroic things when the DO was still unknown to the world, but fell for him when he broke free.

 

I know souls are, should have specified.

 

The thing I see wrong with a Forsaken being bound to the Horn is that the Heroes seem to remember all their past lives. Speaking in a general sense I doubt the Wheel would bind someone to the Horn after they had been that evil. The Forsaken are marked by the Dark One, a blackening of the thread. Similar sort of thing RJ said about Sammaels soul-he said it wouldnt be a good idea for the Dark One to bring Sammael back because Mashadar ate him, some sort of soul/thread corruption. If the Dark One can make that sort of distinction before bringing someone back I expect the Wheel could as well.

 

Its like saying well, Mordred sacrificed the goodness in him to become a weapon against the Shadow. And I think we can all agree that his plan has worked and will likely benefit the Light in AMoL. Does that mean he should be bound to the Horn, if somehow Fain/Mordred reflected before he served his purpose? I doubt. Same goes for the Forsaken in my oppinion. You can come back to the Light, but you probably wont be made a Hero. Even if you sacrificed all the power you had as a Chosen; likely that power was stolen/forced on others anyway so it isnt sacrificing it, its giving it back.

 

I can think of only one example that might possibly work. And that would be for Cyndane to go to the Finns, of her own accord and pure free will, tell them she would give up her beauty and be irreparably cut off from the Source and give up all her AoL memories if they stopped the Dark One from breaking free. Which I doubt would happen and I still doubt shed become a Hero even for such a personal sacrifice.

 

Arent the Heroes given their past memories so they remember what they sacrificed and why? If someone was Chosen but then was bound to the Horn they could quite easily remember why they went to the Shadow and plan to escape from the Horn somehow whether its possible or not. I see the Horn as the Wheels contingency against a Dark Dragon, might be just me. But I think the Wheel would be very careful who it binds, and definitely avoid a former Chosen.

Edited by Drekka Mort
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I do not believe that any current Forsaken have been, but the idea of it is plausible.

 

Remembering that Rand's soul has turned to the Shadow in past lives, but he is still a HotH. (that is, of course, if we take RJ's comments on this to mean Rand's soul)

 

However, we also have this.

 

INTERVIEW: Aug 31st, 2011

Reddit AMA (Verbatim)

 

TED HERMAN ()

Are there any rogue Heroes of the Horn?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

Depends on your definition of rogue.

TED HERMANAs for definition of rogue, I would say if a Hero was acting intentionally or not to either advance the goals of the Shadow or to interfere with the actions of other Heroes.

BRANDON SANDERSON

I do not know of any. We can MAFO it, but I'm pretty sure that there are none doing that. They don't all get along, mind you. But I don't believe any of them are Darkfriends.

 

I take it to mean that there are no "Evil heroes", who are spun out and become Darkfriends. However, corruption or turning nasty because of some event in their life (for that specific life) is possible.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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From what I can tell, the Heroes of the Horn are not so much just legendary souls as they are actual archetypes of heroism that have been given life by the Wheel to fulfill certain roles. Those roles seem to be analogous to the heroes and myths of our own world, the easiest example of which would be Birgitte Silverbow fulfilliing the role of the archetypal huntress ala Diana.

 

As a reflection of the Pattern in all its forms and the world in which all dreams originate, it seems to me that Tel'Aran'Rhiod's connection is clear: In the dreams of men, the stories and archetypes continue to live on even after the bodies that spawned them are killed. In this way, the Heroes can remember everything about themselves while they exist solely within T'A'R because they are literally those stories given life, and those stories persist in the subconcious collective of humanity. The Wheel then spins those storied archetypes out, and while they have new bodies their memories become soley those of the new body until once again they return to the archetypal pool from which they originate.

 

The Great Lord of the Dark is shown time and time again to have abilities not connected to the Wheel itself- as 'he' is a being from outside of the Wheel's influence. It seems likely to me that if there were any Heroes among anyone who went to the Shadow, their link to the Horn would be broken forever by virtue of this outre form of power the DO exibits. So long as he cares to keep snatching their souls up, they wouldn't be reborn by the Wheel's spinning.

 

Of course, being archetypes of heroism itself, it also seems likely to me that those who are bound to the Horn might not ever consider becoming Friends of the Dark- and aside from the 13x13 method, an act of free will is certainly required to give oneself over to the Shadow.

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter, though as others have pointed out: we just don't know enough about it to say for certain.

 

This makes a lot of sense to me. The archetypes make the understanding of the HoV rather straightforward, more so than "individuals." The question then is: Is the atonement archetype characterized but a Forsaken returning to the light tied to the HoV?

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I do not believe that any current Forsaken have been, but the idea of it is plausible.

 

Remembering that Rand's soul has turned to the Shadow in past lives, but he is still a HotH. (that is, of course, if we take RJ's comments on this to mean Rand's soul)

 

However, we also have this.

 

INTERVIEW: Aug 31st, 2011

Reddit AMA (Verbatim)

 

TED HERMAN ()

Are there any rogue Heroes of the Horn?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

Depends on your definition of rogue.

TED HERMANAs for definition of rogue, I would say if a Hero was acting intentionally or not to either advance the goals of the Shadow or to interfere with the actions of other Heroes.

BRANDON SANDERSON

I do not know of any. We can MAFO it, but I'm pretty sure that there are none doing that. They don't all get along, mind you. But I don't believe any of them are Darkfriends.

 

I take it to mean that there are no "Evil heroes", who are spun out and become Darkfriends. However, corruption or turning nasty because of some event in their life (for that specific life) is possible.

 

Yup, that is exactly what I was saying earlier. Some of those Forsaken undoubtedly have souls traits that continuously turn them to the dark most times. That is much different than Rand's soul being turned occasionally.

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