[Full Prologue Spoilers] The Red Veiled Aiel

[b3arz3rg3r]

I think there are about 100-200 Samma N'Sei, Not more. It just would be too much. But when i think of it. The shadow now has; 100 dark Asha'Man. 130 or so Black Ajah. In comparison to the Light that is just so few. So maybe the Samma Guys do have a larger number...

 

On a side note. I always got the impression the Aiel had like 2000 Wise Ones who could channel. Why havent they gotten great battle training. That would have been worth a lot. So strange. Now they are more like accepted with only fireballs and lightning.

 

The WO don't have battle training because they never were intended for battle. Neither are the Aes Sedai, the Windfinders and the Kin. Only Asha'man and Damane are actually trained for battle. The others are at best trained to defend themselves. That's why we won't ever see women channel stuff like Blossoms of Fire, Deathgates or Arrows of Fire unless some of the female Forsaken show them on the battlefield. The knowledge of battleweaves like these has been lost and now the best women can do is throw balls of fire or lightning bolts.

[XXX]

What is the percentage of mating an channelers with another channelers and producing children who can channel?

[XXX]

I think there are about 100-200 Samma N'Sei, Not more. It just would be too much. But when i think of it. The shadow now has; 100 dark Asha'Man. 130 or so Black Ajah. In comparison to the Light that is just so few. So maybe the Samma Guys do have a larger number...

 

On a side note. I always got the impression the Aiel had like 2000 Wise Ones who could channel. Why havent they gotten great battle training. That would have been worth a lot. So strange. Now they are more like accepted with only fireballs and lightning.

 

The Shaido WO's did not even know how to throw lightnings and fireballs till they learnt from the AS at Dumai Wells. And the AS themselves have very limited fighting capabilities with the OP. 2000 years of relative peace after the Trolloc wars have softened up the AS fighting abilities. Only the AM and the Damane are primed for an all out battle among the light side OP users.

[Vardar]

If I remember right, during the AOL 3% of the population could channel. Let's say only about 1/3 of a percent are sparkers. Let us then assume that there are around 2 million aiel, half of which are men. That's probably around 150000 men a year being born. 1/3 of a percent of 150000 is around 500 sparkers a year. Let's say 1/10th of those are caught and turned by the shadow, that's 50 a year. That still seems like a lot as there doesn't seem to be even fifty sparkers found every year by the AS. But, my point is, a large settlement of these guys is a possibility. Even if you make it 5 a year, in 200 years that's a 1000 and since they'll live 100s of years it's a possibility.

 

I understand the % of people able to channel has dropped, (Although it's not as bad amonung the Aiel and Seanchan) however if those Aiel are made up of the male channelers who went from the Blight? (I haven't read the prolouge, I'm going to tonight) then they would have a waaaayyyy higher percentage of channelers there.

[Vardar]

What is the percentage of mating an channelers with another channelers and producing children who can channel?

 

There's a thread on this discussing it in detail. The basic conseneus is that you can't apply genetics and breeding to this world. It wouldn't be possible to "cull" the population simply by killing male sparkers (1% of the 5% right) after they have probably already bred and removing female sparkers (again the 1% and not even all of them) and a few of the non sparkers but not many. From a math standpoint, it's a drop in the bucket, therefore we have to conclude that the 2% number (or was it 1%) of channelers in Randland makese no sense but is the Word of God therefore applies. The Seanchan and WO have a higher number, 3%.

 

So, pretty much there is no evidence to suggest channelers would produce more channelers.

[he who comes with a bong]

Well i think that if that are in fact a total clan, lets say for humor that there is 10 to 15 thousand total clansmen/clanswomen. Iam not very good at math but ill guess that a 3rd to a little bit more than that are goign to be able to channel, given the fact that it has been 2000 years.

 

I also sorta remember random borderland soliders talkign about raids from the blight and faile talkign abotu raids from the blight, and prisoneers and all that jazz. And how some times the Eyeless have been known to have their way with women prisoneers.Maybee that is a little bit of the breeding program that they have been trying to do for the last 2000 years. Just a random thought.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Channelling is both genetic and a soul trait.

 

Channellers have a higher chance of producing channeller offspring, but it only increases the chances, and you don't need to have "channelling genes" in order to birth a channeller.

 

So the Samma N'Sei would breed higher percentages with a program focused on birthing channellers. However, it wouldn't be that much better. Instead of a 1% chance, it would probably be a 10% chance.

 

And that is just the true blood Samma N'Sei, the number is also bolstered by regular Aiel who wander into the Blight to kill the DO.

 

So the Samma N'Sei feed off both their own breeding program AND the entire Aiel population.

 

The numbers would be much higher than 100. I would say at least 300 and possibly close to 1000.

 

If numbers were so scarce, Moridin wouldn't randomly kill dozens of them to assert his authority. He wouldn't wipe out 10% of his killing machines.

[he who comes with a bong]

Channelling is both genetic and a soul trait.

 

Channellers have a higher chance of producing channeller offspring, but it only increases the chances, and you don't need to have "channelling genes" in order to birth a channeller.

 

So the Samma N'Sei would breed higher percentages with a program focused on birthing channellers. However, it wouldn't be that much better. Instead of a 1% chance, it would probably be a 10% chance.

 

And that is just the true blood Samma N'Sei, the number is also bolstered by regular Aiel who wander into the Blight to kill the DO.

 

So the Samma N'Sei feed off both their own breeding program AND the entire Aiel population.

 

The numbers would be much higher than 100. I would say at least 300 and possibly close to 1000.

 

If numbers were so scarce, Moridin wouldn't randomly kill dozens of them to assert his authority. He wouldn't wipe out 10% of his killing machines.

 

 

 

that makes sense for sure. I mean why go throught 2000 years of a breading program and have that few of channelers. Theres going to be more for sure if there isnt i will be surpisied.and disapointed.all the buildup to the blank in the blight then bam its kinda a let down ya know

[Vardar]

Channelling is both genetic and a soul trait.

 

Channellers have a higher chance of producing channeller offspring, but it only increases the chances, and you don't need to have "channelling genes" in order to birth a channeller.

 

So the Samma N'Sei would breed higher percentages with a program focused on birthing channellers. However, it wouldn't be that much better. Instead of a 1% chance, it would probably be a 10% chance.

 

And that is just the true blood Samma N'Sei, the number is also bolstered by regular Aiel who wander into the Blight to kill the DO.

 

So the Samma N'Sei feed off both their own breeding program AND the entire Aiel population.

 

The numbers would be much higher than 100. I would say at least 300 and possibly close to 1000.

 

If numbers were so scarce, Moridin wouldn't randomly kill dozens of them to assert his authority. He wouldn't wipe out 10% of his killing machines.

 

How many of the Male Aiel going to the blight did they capture? I mean,just that fact would mean there would be a good chunk of male channelers. Sure the training kills some, but unlike Regular Channelers, do they have to worry about the taint? (I'd assume no) so they should live long and breed hard right?

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

 

How many of the Male Aiel going to the blight did they capture? I mean,just that fact would mean there would be a good chunk of male channelers. Sure the training kills some, but unlike Regular Channelers, do they have to worry about the taint? (I'd assume no) so they should live long and breed hard right?

 

We don't have any numbers. All we have to go on are a few indicators.

 

The "Town" is said to be "sprawling".

The "Town" has been there for 2000 years, breeding and collecting Male Channellers.

Moridin isn't concerned about killing "dozens" of them.

 

Pretty much every Aiel Male channeler goes to the Blight, obviously they would have to be sparkers, but over 2000 years that is a decent amount. However, we don't know the attrition rate. Seeing as the Town is near Shayol Ghul, one has to cross a large chunk of the Blight.

 

As we know, pretty much any little thing can kill in the Blight, so how many actually die before they are found? How many die from madness before they are found? How many die from touching the Power, is it 1 in 4 like the women sparkers?

 

Considering the fact that the Town isn't destroyed by madmen and the fact we have seen no Dreadlords go mad from the Taint, I would say they have protection from the DO.

 

Without the Oaths and with the protection, that means they could live as long as 600 years. So their numbers are potentially made up of 400 years worth of capturing Aiel and breeding them, which is a significant amount, even considering losses and such.

[Vardar]

 

How many of the Male Aiel going to the blight did they capture? I mean,just that fact would mean there would be a good chunk of male channelers. Sure the training kills some, but unlike Regular Channelers, do they have to worry about the taint? (I'd assume no) so they should live long and breed hard right?

 

We don't have any numbers. All we have to go on are a few indicators.

 

The "Town" is said to be "sprawling".

The "Town" has been there for 2000 years, breeding and collecting Male Channellers.

Moridin isn't concerned about killing "dozens" of them.

 

Pretty much every Aiel Male channeler goes to the Blight, obviously they would have to be sparkers, but over 2000 years that is a decent amount. However, we don't know the attrition rate. Seeing as the Town is near Shayol Ghul, one has to cross a large chunk of the Blight.

 

As we know, pretty much any little thing can kill in the Blight, so how many actually die before they are found? How many die from madness before they are found? How many die from touching the Power, is it 1 in 4 like the women sparkers?

 

Considering the fact that the Town isn't destroyed by madmen and the fact we have seen no Dreadlords go mad from the Taint, I would say they have protection from the DO.

 

Without the Oaths and with the protection, that means they could live as long as 600 years. So their numbers are potentially made up of 400 years worth of capturing Aiel and breeding them, which is a significant amount, even considering losses and such.

 

Which goes back to my point on page 2, or 3, potential thousands of channelers, what the bloody hell were they waiting for.

[2RiversFan]

Which goes back to my point on page 2, or 3, potential thousands of channelers, what the bloody hell were they waiting for.

 

Just as Zen Rand states after Maradon, it was not time yet for the confrontation between the DO and him to take place. There are apparently several conditions that have to be met for the final confrontation to take place and for either side to be able to get the victory it desires. This goes back to what we've been explained regarding the pattern being 'perfectly created' by the Creator; ie: it will spin out as powerful a CoL as necessary (but only just as powerful as necessary) to meet the threat and for the wheel to keep turning. I'm paraphrasing and possibly adding my own thoughts, but I think that the gist is correct.

 

The victory that the DO desires is for the wheel to stop turning and all time / life to stop. If he had his forces attack prior to the Light side forces being ready, he would have by all evidence seen so far succeeded in defeating the continent and the world, but would still not stop time.

 

That's my take on it.

[2RiversFan]

Just a couple of random points:

 

It may be obvious to everyone, but a point I haven't seen discussed is that the 'Town', and all of the Samma N'sei can only have been started by Ishy/Moridin. He was the only one who had all of the necessary skills and power that was free of the prison. This point leads (quite possibly) on to other revelations, but I haven't firmed my thoughts on them yet so I won't write them here.

 

Separately, what are the 'constraints' placed on everyone that don't apply to Moridin? I'm guessing that it must be that the Samma N'Sei can't channel within the Town - no channeling is seen by any of them here...

[Suttree]

Which goes back to my point on page 2, or 3, potential thousands of channelers, what the bloody hell were they waiting for.

 

TGS

I only know that this battle isn't being fought the way that al'Thor assumes it will be."

 

2Rivers has the right of it...

[jemron]

I just got this crazy idea, which is very likely wrong and has probably already been discussed. But what if the Eye Blinders are the 100 companions? Didn't they all supposedly die at the strike at Shayol Ghul? Or did they just immediately go mad? I don't remember.

 

Obviously, the likely answer is that they're the Aiel men who go to spit in Sightblinder's eye only to have the Shadow spit in theirs when they're 13x13d, but this random thought just came up and will probably get shot down immediately. What dya'll think?

[Vardar]

Which goes back to my point on page 2, or 3, potential thousands of channelers, what the bloody hell were they waiting for.

 

TGS

I only know that this battle isn't being fought the way that al'Thor assumes it will be."

 

2Rivers has the right of it...

Oh I know, but think about it like this:

 

How specific do those conditions have to be that the DO's job would not have been easier wiping out a majority of the female casters in Randland? What would destroying the WT have done? Leave Rand alive, wipe out the tower (I mean they were trying to capture Rand at first right? The first few books, what was that about).

 

There's something we're missing.

 

Look at all the actions taken in the books thus far, all the defeats the shadow suffered, the addition of thousands of channelers would have tipped the boards a lot, you dont have to kill Rand, but you can capture him, trap him, whatever, but more importantly, you can deny him allies. Refusing to deny him allies, while letting those allies become stronger (and then a threat) means those allies have something to do to free the DO.

 

So (brief as that was I hope you guys get the gist) we're forced to conclude that the shadow has to let stuff happen like it has, all those failed attempts to take Rand's life or to trap him were botched on purpose (because let's be honest, before book, 4 or 5, nothing could have stood up to the Shadow if they showed their full might) meaning the act of freeing the DO involves more than just Rand, Hell more than just the 3 main guys, it encompasses a lot more. It's going to Matrix in here real quick...

 

Or the whole thing won't be that detailed and I'll just be one pissed off guy when I learn he just needed Rand alive meaning he could have destroyed most of the world at any time but like a typical Villian choose not too. He went scooby-doo.

[LTArmstrong1]

Here is a another potenial wrinkle in this twisted tail:

 

Rand's real father Janduin, went to the blight and was supposedly killed by Luc. Was he really killed or was he turned, and now wearing a Red Veil?

[makaveli422]

Here is a another potenial wrinkle in this twisted tail:

 

Rand's real father Janduin, went to the blight and was supposedly killed by Luc. Was he really killed or was he turned, and now wearing a Red Veil?

 

He was killed by Luc for sure.

 

TSR He Who Comes With the Dawn pg 564

Those who returned said he was killed by a man, though. They said Janduin claimed this man looked like Shaiel, and he would not raise his spear when the man ran him through.

[Neophyte]

Here is a another potenial wrinkle in this twisted tail:

 

Rand's real father Janduin, went to the blight and was supposedly killed by Luc. Was he really killed or was he turned, and now wearing a Red Veil?

 

Also, there have been no indications that Janduin could channel - he just went north out of grief over Tigraine/Shaiel's death. Can't be Turned if you can't channel.

[John Snow]

I also think the Red Veiled Warriors are Aiel. But what really stood out to me in the prologue, was the conversation between Aviendha and Bair. I know believe, Nakomi whom Aviendha meet is from the northern controlled Aiel. Although i havent decided yet if she is there for the shadow, or if she is trying to save the Aiel in the north. She has a deep understanding of the Aiel, especially there past, and even Bair comments that her name is very ancient. Brandon has mentioned that we will see her again, and my guess is her and Bair will find a way to overcome the tragedy that his coming for the Aiel.

 

Speaking of Nakomi, did she remind anyone else of the guise Lanfear put on when she visited Mat?

Not to mention the way her stuff 'suddenly' disappeared

[Wheel of Thyme]

Granted I have not read the prologue and am trying to glean what I can from those who have; I do not want to pay twice for the book. But I do have a question. You all seem to be only discussing MALE channelers. If this was indeed a breeding program, there would be baby girls born, and many of these girls would grow up to be wielders of the One Power. So I ask you all...where are the women?

[MasterAblar]

Granted I have not read the prologue and am trying to glean what I can from those who have; I do not want to pay twice for the book. But I do have a question. You all seem to be only discussing MALE channelers. If this was indeed a breeding program, there would be baby girls born, and many of these girls would grow up to be wielders of the One Power. So I ask you all...where are the women?

 

We haven't seen any.

[MountaineerWV]

Granted I have not read the prologue and am trying to glean what I can from those who have; I do not want to pay twice for the book. But I do have a question. You all seem to be only discussing MALE channelers. If this was indeed a breeding program, there would be baby girls born, and many of these girls would grow up to be wielders of the One Power. So I ask you all...where are the women?

 

We haven't seen any.

 

Another thing that pisses me off about this town. Maybe female babies are eaten.

[Wheel of Thyme]

Then the Shadow is an idiot. Or maybe its the theme that evil contains the seeds of its own destruction. Because baby girls who could be raised to the Dark would be powerful as Dark Wielders of the One Power, and they could have linked with the male Aiel channelers and formed extremely powerful circles. Ishmael is more than aware of how saidin/ saidar circles work, why would he, if it was he who set up the town, toss away a prime asset for the Dark? And if they had Female Darkfriends wielding the One Power, there would not be need for those 13 women in the coach to do that 13 x 13 trick.

 

And if it was a 2,000 year old BREEDING program, there would have to be female chanellers to mate with the males. Unless there is now a new theory of genetics of channeling because of this chapter? I guess it could be an X linked recessive trait if it shows up in more males than females, but plenty of women do channel the One Power.

[Barid Bel Medar]

We don't know enough about the Town to comment. However, women are not usually in the town. If they keep the female Channelers, they send them elsewhere. Else they eat them.

 

Personally, I think they send the women to live in the south and live as darkfriends.

 

The whole purpose for the Town is to breed and preserve male channelers who would be killed in the south. It would be highly suspect if they didn't go mad and die, and I doubt that anyone would stop and ponder the sematic, so keeping them in the Blight is the only option. It is pretty hard in itself, the Town isn't exactly first class.

 

So the women would only be a burden, apart from some that are kept for breeding and possibly 13x13ing people, they would be wasted. They could be accepted into society and mess with the world covertly as darkfriends or Black Ajah.

 

But as I said, we just don't know enough about the Town to say how the whole thing works.