Egwene Appreciation Thread

[Maleshub]

Great skill in the Power, immense thirst to learn, a quick feel for politics, the ability to listen to her advisors, the strength of will to get things done. The qualities that great young leaders usually display.

 

Not to mention more training towards her various skills with Moriaine, Siuan, the WO's, the Seanchan etc than any other five characters put together. Let me be clear, I am not saying all of it is 100% believable. But the base for how it came about is there.

 

Egwene's desire to learn is one of her most outstanding traits. From the start when Moiraine started teaching her about Saidar, she dedicated herself to learning. And she's been a student more than all other characters. She actually learned and worked on her skills more than most.

 

Why would that be more unbelievable than the circumstances of the other main characters?

[Mr Ares]

Great skill in the Power, immense thirst to learn, a quick feel for politics, the ability to listen to her advisors, the strength of will to get things done. The qualities that great young leaders usually display.

 

Not to mention more training towards her various skills with Moriaine, Siuan, the WO's, the Seanchan etc than any other five characters put together. Let me be clear, I am not saying all of it is 100% believable. But the base for how it came about is there.

 

Also, something often overlooked, is her training to be the next wisdom. Yes, the Two Rivers is small potatoes comparitively but she was being taught from a very young age how to manipulate both the city council and the women's circle which would have made her mind more prone to picking up the lessons learnt later on.

Her tutor in this regard was Nynaeve. Unless by manipulate you mean bully and threaten with a stick, then no, she wasn't taught to manipulate the Village Council or the Women's Circle.

[David Selig]

Great skill in the Power, immense thirst to learn, a quick feel for politics, the ability to listen to her advisors, the strength of will to get things done. The qualities that great young leaders usually display.

 

Not to mention more training towards her various skills with Moriaine, Siuan, the WO's, the Seanchan etc than any other five characters put together. Let me be clear, I am not saying all of it is 100% believable. But the base for how it came about is there.

Not really. Tuon, Faile, Elayne - all of them as high ranked nobles and potential heirs of thrones had a lot more training by elite teachers throughout their lives than Egwene.

 

Her tutor in this regard was Nynaeve. Unless by manipulate you mean bully and threaten with a stick, then no, she wasn't taught to manipulate the Village Council or the Women's Circle.

So true.

Egwene's mother is a lot more likely source of teaching her how to manipulate people. Nynaeve is way too blunt and straightforward for this.

[Suttree]

Not really. Tuon, Faile, Elayne - all of them as high ranked nobles and potential heirs of thrones had a lot more training by elite teachers throughout their lives than Egwene.

 

In specific fields relating to ruling yes. My point was the base for Egwene's various skills are there. My bad for not articulating that well in the first post...

[Kahsm]

Ok its 4.38 am in Lahore and I haven't slept in 80 hours and I have rad all 5 pages of it. A very long time ago I decided that I am not going to respond to kael and it seems like fionwe is going to join the club I mean that post by kael was rally over the top. Where are moderators or can I answer in kind?

 

Yeah, sucks how I make sense, don't agree with you, but you can't think of why I'm wrong. I mean what "really over the top" claims did I make?

 

1. Egwene hate is hyperbolized

2. Randsc is trying to spread conspiracy theories to discredit what the author claimed his intentions were because they don't agree with Randsc twisted view of what he read. Edit: with no evidence mind you, classic special pleading

3. Claims that she's a "mary-sue" and that that's a legitimate reason to dislike her, just because she happens to be successful, are ridiculous when unbelievable fortunes can and do happen in real life too. I mean if you automatically hate those who strike it rich due to an entrepreneurial spirit, then I suppose you'd hate Egwene. But that's pretty selfish and twisted.

 

But I'm the crazy one, and the haters who claim things like... Egwene tortured Nynaeve in the dream to get off on some sadistic pleasure (one example of many outrageous claims), those are the people you would happily respond to. Cause they're clearly grounded in reality. At least your own reality, which must not be the real... really, if I'm the one who's out to lunch.

 

So yeah, little confused. If you really want to go off, feel free to PM me your vitriol. Though I don't believe I called anyone names though, they were all directed at their silly, but persistent, arguments.

[Sheepherder]

Just a guess, but I think they were refering more to your language and tone being over the top and in need of a moderator warning as opposed to your arguments.

 

Case in point:

unless you're bat $h*t crazy and irrationally hate her for no rational reason.

[Claire.Bryanhancock]

Since I started reading WoT 10 years ago Egwene has been my favourite character. I think what I really like about Egwene is the fact that you can see her grow in the books into someone who is worthy as Amyrlin. Yeah she makes mistakes and she tries really hard, sometimes too hard to fit in and be who she thinks that others wish her to be, but in the end she makes up her own mind about what is necessary. In the Fires of Heaven she goes against both the Aes Sedai oaths and the Wise Ones advice to help Rand use the Power to protect Cairhien.

 

I find that the mistakes she makes along the way and the sometimes silly way that she behaves towards Rand makes her more human. Everyone makes mistakes and in characters like Egwene you can see them learning from their mistakes and it is both their mistakes and their successes that make them the person who they are. I think part of Egwene's problem is that she knows what she wants and she sticks to her decisions. In some ways this is a good thing. I think with the Windfinders and the Kin she is not only trying to help Rand, but also she is trying to help those groups as well. I truly beleive that she wants everyone to be happy, but also to be aware of what is coming. Rand spent a lot of time trying to be hard and to not let everything that he is get to him. Egwene didn't do this, she shouldered her repsonsibility the only way she knew how. I don't find Rand and Egwene to be opposing each other, I just think that their lives have taken different paths. I think both of them are pushed by the responsibilites that they have and are doing the best that they can. In this way I have a lot of respect for both Rand and Egwene.

 

We also forget that Rand and Egwene even more so were quite young when they left the Two Rivers and they had to grow-up and deal with so many things really quickly. They also both fell into responsibilities and powerful positions with less training than others would receive. For Egwene to become a great Amyrlin after not having the chance to learn the responsibilites as an Aes Sedai beforehand speaks highly of her character and her dedication. Rand having to deal with the dedication and fear of others towards the Dragon Reborn so quickly also speaks highly of his character. It could be that Egwene was not sitting there thinking Rand a "wool-brained idiot" maybe she was scared. Rand is the sheapheard that she was going to marry and she now seems him as a man who shoulders the fate of the world, that has got to be a little scary.

 

Long story short, I like Egwene, I always have. She is a strong female character who we see grow from a silly girl to a strong powerful woman who holds true to her convictions and does what she thinks is right. Fantasy as a whole could learn a lot from the way in which RJ writes female characters and understand that females need strong female champions to identify with.

[Kahsm]

Just a guess, but I think they were refering more to your language and tone being over the top and in need of a moderator warning as opposed to your arguments.

 

Case in point:

unless you're bat $h*t crazy and irrationally hate her for no rational reason.

 

That's "over the top"? give me a break. It's not even directed at anyone in particular. So anyone who thinks that can grow up and respond/debate or just stay silent. The stealth attempt to undermine legit, though pointed, arguments by saying, "Oh I wont' reply because you used a dirty word and too many exclamation marks!!!" is just as ridiculous as most of the arguments people make for Egwene hate. Which I suppose isn't surprising. You've gotta use what you can when logic fails you.

[Maleshub]

I think that Egwene is the embodiment of RJ's genius. All the discussion and interest she generates is just extraordinary.

[RandA lThor]

I think that Egwene is the embodiment of RJ's genius. All the discussion and interest she generates is just extraordinary.

 

This is extremely true. His ability to write a character that is either known as awesome or horrible is brilliant. Also, the fact that she changes so mich from the beginning that I think of them as two different people. However, none of this change is abrupt.

[randsc]

Sheepherder, there comes a point where some posters just fall over into outright trolldom, and need not be engaged any longer.

[Kahsm]

Sheepherder, there comes a point where some posters just fall over into outright trolldom, and need not be engaged any longer.

 

Yeah, you're just taking the high road. You're not at all ignoring the fact you have no evidence to your wild claim and simply need to cling to something ridiculous in order to avoid admitting you're wrong. No, it's nothing like that. I'm just a troll for pointing out your wild grasping of straws.

[wookiebear]

When I read a book I enjoy engaging characters, which the Wheel of Time has in abundance

 

Each and every one of the major characters in this series has moments of awesome as well as moments of me wanting to shout at the pages (or speakers if I am listening) due to the sheer meh'ness that is occurring

 

For me Egwene is the epitome of this. She can be the height of awesome one moment and in the very next sentence the definition of meh

 

I think it is for this dichotomy that their is such a vitriolic debate regarding this character. Some see only the greatness, some only the flaws, and some, the few, we happy few, see both sides and realize that a complex character can be, well, complex

 

My opinion (worth exactly what you just paid for it) is that if the authors had all the time to truly develop all the characters from the beginning to where they need to be at the end, there would be little debate, but the sheer scope of this story would fill libraries. These limitations have caused some, if not all, the major and minor characters to have gaps in their development that cause us to spaz out entirely as fans. We want the story to be perfect, and demand that perfection of the authors. They try their best, but at times fail to communicate entirely what they mean in the words that hit the page.

 

I don't mind, it allows me to read others interpretations, sometimes agreeing, sometimes not, and at all times to be thoroughly entertained

[RandA lThor]

When I read a book I enjoy engaging characters, which the Wheel of Time has in abundance

 

Each and every one of the major characters in this series has moments of awesome as well as moments of me wanting to shout at the pages (or speakers if I am listening) due to the sheer meh'ness that is occurring

 

For me Egwene is the epitome of this. She can be the height of awesome one moment and in the very next sentence the definition of meh

 

I think it is for this dichotomy that their is such a vitriolic debate regarding this character. Some see only the greatness, some only the flaws, and some, the few, we happy few, see both sides and realize that a complex character can be, well, complex

 

My opinion (worth exactly what you just paid for it) is that if the authors had all the time to truly develop all the characters from the beginning to where they need to be at the end, there would be little debate, but the sheer scope of this story would fill libraries. These limitations have caused some, if not all, the major and minor characters to have gaps in their development that cause us to spaz out entirely as fans. We want the story to be perfect, and demand that perfection of the authors. They try their best, but at times fail to communicate entirely what they mean in the words that hit the page.

 

I don't mind, it allows me to read others interpretations, sometimes agreeing, sometimes not, and at all times to be thoroughly entertained

 

That is an awesome first post. I think it is atleast because it says 1 posts, but that was very nicely put. I personally rate a character on what she does the majority of the time, but rate a character every quarter of a book, giving me plenty of time to change my mind.

[randsc]

For anyone wondering what the hell he's on about, the source of that "conspiracy" is the author, who said in the interview that he wanted to correct a "mis-perception."

[Elan Tedronai]

Ok its 4.38 am in Lahore and I haven't slept in 80 hours and I have rad all 5 pages of it. A very long time ago I decided that I am not going to respond to kael and it seems like fionwe is going to join the club I mean that post by kael was rally over the top. Where are moderators or can I answer in kind?

 

Yeah, sucks how I make sense, don't agree with you, but you can't think of why I'm wrong. I mean what "really over the top" claims did I make?

 

1. Egwene hate is hyperbolized

2. Randsc is trying to spread conspiracy theories to discredit what the author claimed his intentions were because they don't agree with Randsc twisted view of what he read. Edit: with no evidence mind you, classic special pleading

3. Claims that she's a "mary-sue" and that that's a legitimate reason to dislike her, just because she happens to be successful, are ridiculous when unbelievable fortunes can and do happen in real life too. I mean if you automatically hate those who strike it rich due to an entrepreneurial spirit, then I suppose you'd hate Egwene. But that's pretty selfish and twisted.

 

But I'm the crazy one, and the haters who claim things like... Egwene tortured Nynaeve in the dream to get off on some sadistic pleasure (one example of many outrageous claims), those are the people you would happily respond to. Cause they're clearly grounded in reality. At least your own reality, which must not be the real... really, if I'm the one who's out to lunch.

 

So yeah, little confused. If you really want to go off, feel free to PM me your vitriol. Though I don't believe I called anyone names though, they were all directed at their silly, but persistent, arguments.

 

let it go my man. let it go. double standards and projectionism are two a penny on this site. In the beginning i tried to debate and reason but the hate lies deep and the love for the jesus wannabe shepherder too strong. Mind you everytime i compare the shepherder to jesus in disparaging tones, the backlash tends to be more fierce than the one shaitan tainted saidin with. That should give you all the evidence you need.

 

XXX47

 

your last post. Success achieved through hard work, guts, determination, willingness to learn, patience and wisdom beats the one earnt through destiny, prophecies and pattern manipulation bullcrap. But that's just me

[Vardar]

The only real problem with Egwene is that she is a woman in WoT. If she didn't think that men were useless and had to be told what to do -all of the time- she would be a good character. But because she is a woman in WoT that isn't an option. She is still one of the best females around, I don't think there are any others in the series that could of fixed the WT as much as she did. I just wish they were more like Min, who can see that Rand is smart enough that he can make his own descisions alot of the time.

 

Hey I can almost agree with this. That and the fact that she's Aes Sadai, despite the fact that she was aware of AS failing throughout the books, once she became one, suddenly she forgot how much they didn't know or how foolish it made them seem. Honestly it amazes me how they've managed to pull the strings of the world for so long when you look at how stupid and sure of their own powers they are. It's dumbfounding!

 

I appreciate how she handled the Black Ajah, but other than that, Meh.

[Suttree]

That and the fact that she's Aes Sadai, despite the fact that she was aware of AS failing throughout the books, once she became one, suddenly she forgot how much they didn't know or how foolish it made them seem.

 

It is precisely that she is aware of those failings and has done so much in her short time as Amrylin to reform the WT that should count in her favor. The books have quite obviously set her up as the Amrylin that will take it into the future. For all that she has drank a bit too much of the kool aid for my liking.

[RandA lThor]

She especially has grown so much, that I kind of have to like that about her.

[fionwe1987]

For anyone wondering what the hell he's on about, the source of that "conspiracy" is the author, who said in the interview that he wanted to correct a "mis-perception."

Brandon isn't the only one who has had to do this. RJ had to do it too, when Egwene-haters got pissed that she dared to think Rand would use compulsion.

 

The fact is, both authors have had to "clarify" their scenes because everything Egwene does always has such a negative spin put on it. If Nynaeve says, "I'm going to wring Rand al'Thor's neck the next time I see him", fans read it for the exaggerated statement it is. If Egwene says something like that, RJ/Brandon would probably have to clarify that she was only joking...

 

And right there we have all the evidence we need that Egwene-hate tends to get out of bounds, and is exaggerated to ridiculous extents.

 

And yes, she drinks the cool aid of the WT a bit too much. But so does Nynaeve, or Elayne, or any woman who ends up in the Tower. They all see what it can be. When they talk with respect about the Tower, they mean the organization and its 3000 year history, not its current sorry state.

[RandA lThor]

I think it's because Egwene wouldn't do that too much in the beginning while Nynaeve did it every other sentence she said.

[fionwe1987]

That's hardly an excuse though.

[RandA lThor]

I know, I don't like the Egwene hate either, but I am just giving a possible explanation. Also, you know that Nynaeve still remembers the Two Rivers Rand and helps him. Egwene forgets that so many times and often thinks him as an enemy.

[Suttree]

I know, I don't like the Egwene hate either, but I am just giving a possible explanation. Also, you know that Nynaeve still remembers the Two Rivers Rand and helps him. Egwene forgets that so many times and often thinks him as an enemy.

 

ToM

The words were those of a madman, but they were spoken evenly. She looked at him, and remembered the youth that he had been. The earnest young man. Not solemn like Perrin, but not wild like Mat. Solid, straightforward. The type of man you could trust with anything.

 

Even the fate of the world.

[wookiebear]

She especially has grown so much, that I kind of have to like that about her.

 

The character growth that this story shows in ALL fleshed out characters is one of the main components of this story IMO.

 

If you follow any of the major and major/minor characters from their introduction to where they are in the last book/tome you will see that they have all shown growth, some fairly minor and other major in scope. Much of the growth is off screen for some, others grow entirely in focus of the author and the reader.

 

I think a high percentage of the Egwene hate is stirred because of the gaps, the off screen, undocumented growth that occurs within her character. Some people assume that the non mentioned growth occurred, others assume she just automagically got better.

 

As I said before, or at least alluded to, I am neither an Egwene lover nor hater, neither apologist nor detractor. I find her an interesting and exasperating character that makes a story I like just a bit more interesting