Egwene Appreciation Thread

[Edynol]

They will decide for themselves, that's what. I don't understand why you want to take away their personal freedom and immediately subjugate them to Egwene. Yes, they are a group of unbound male channelers. Is there anything bad about that? If they want to rejoin the women and become part of the Aes Sedai that's up to them and no one else. Egwene being responsible for them is just typical Aes Sedai hybris. She isn't.

 

They will decides for themselves, what if they decide they want power and enter some inequality era because they think those who can channel should be above and have more power than those who can't? What if they allow members to just go off and cause trouble and become terrorists and do nothing about it? Any sort of things can happen. They aren't bound by the oath rod, so they can go out and make weapons, use the power as a weapon against regular people who have no defense, and there will be some ashies who will do that if left to their own devices in the future.

 

As long as the Asha'man don't break the laws of whatever country they are in at the moment they can do whatever they wish. If say the Asha'man want to become a private company which hires out various services- construction, transportation, communication, intelligence, defense etc- in return for money it's their right to do so and Egwene has no right to object. Even if the Asha'man become filthy rich and powerful that way with various countries depending on their services.

 

There are many bad things they can do that aren't technically breaking the law. What if like Verin, someone figures out how to weave compulsion, or those sparkers whom some have 'little tricks' as they call them are never driven away from using them and it develops into some sort of compulsion? They can manipulate leaders, have people do bad stuff for them without risking themselves getting caught, etc. Or they could go out and start businesses like and with using the OP they are way more faster and run normal people out of business, or make power wrought weapons for any Tom, Dick, and Harry to buy? None of that is 'against the law', but still pretty darn bad.

 

So what if Logain is holding grudges? It's his right to do so. There is no need for anyone to control the Asha'man. They are free to act in whatever manner they wish to as long as they don't infringe upon the freedom of anyone else.

It is his right to hold a grudge, yeah, but what if he decides to act on it? Just one man of Logain's strength can cause a hell of a lot of damage, as has been proven. And just like my above statement, with out a solid structure to promote responsible behavior, nothing will keep them from infringing on ones freedom. Hell, even some Aes Sedai still do it, to an extent, but without their structure, there would be a lot more who do it and to higher extremes.

 

Also, there is a huge difference between controlling someone and integrating them into a society. They won't be controlling the ashies, they would be working with them as equals. Huge difference.

 

That argument doesn't have a leg to stand on. The Asha'man may be a threat to the Aes Sedai world view, but that doesn't give them the right to do anything about it. If hundreds of years down the line Asha'man and Aes Sedai may become enemies that still doesn't give Egwene the right to take away their freedom. As I said it'll be up to the Asha'man whether they want to join the Aes Sedai. If they decide against it that's their right.

 

Actually, in terms of warfare, if they do become enemies, the AS have every right to conquer and take over. That's just the way the world works. Acutally, even if they aren't enemies, the AS have the right to conquer them because because they decide their own rights, like any political body. And they have been in Andor for a lot longer than the Ashies, Andor's queen is even Aes Sedai. It is pretty much their land, and even if it wasn't, Elayne, as Aes Sedai, does have every right to control the Ashies cause it is her kingdom and if she wants them to either become Aes Sedai or suffer the consequences, she every right as ruler to do so.

 

And if you think about it, the only rights the Ashies do have are those Elayne allows them to have. So you're argument is the one that has no leg to stand on. Either they do as she wishes or get disbanded and have to move somewhere else that might not welcome them so warmly.

 

 

Who is she to think that the Asha'man need her guidance? Leading a horse to the water? Like they were some sort of dumb beast of burden incapable of thinking for themselves? She is a twenty year old with less life experience than all but the youngest of them. She has never had to work for a living, never had to endure privation and prejudice or face being ostracised or persecuted. She may be a brilliant politician and skilled manipulator but that doesn't mean she knows what's right or wrong for them. Just because the Aes Sedai were a certain way 3,000 years ago doesn't mean the Asha'man have to become that way again unless they themselves want to.

You just gave your arguments a lot less credibility with that statement alone that I bolded.

 

She worked the inn in TR, before studying to become wisdom. She has worked plenty. And how do explain her time as a damane? Have you even read the first three books? And the Ashies do need guidance. All they know right now is how to be weapons and such, they have no real laws or structure like the Aes Sedai. Now true, the AS are far from having a good solid structure right now and need to improve themselves, but they are now on the way to doing so and would be best for the Ashies to join with them in forging the new age to come.

 

(Edit: Egwene was an inn worker, not a farmer. lol)

[b3arz3rg3r]

They will decide for themselves, that's what. I don't understand why you want to take away their personal freedom and immediately subjugate them to Egwene. Yes, they are a group of unbound male channelers. Is there anything bad about that? If they want to rejoin the women and become part of the Aes Sedai that's up to them and no one else. Egwene being responsible for them is just typical Aes Sedai hybris. She isn't.

 

They will decides for themselves, what if they decide they want power and enter some inequality era because they think those who can channel should be above and have more power than those who can't? What if they allow members to just go off and cause trouble and become terrorists and do nothing about it? Any sort of things can happen. They aren't bound by the oath rod, so they can go out and make weapons, use the power as a weapon against regular people who have no defense, and there will be some ashies who will do that if left to their own devices in the future.

 

There is always a risk if you grant people personal freedom. There are no guarantees that people won't misuse them. But still in what sort of totalitarian regime do you want to live where people are denied their personal freedom. Your argumentation is pretty much the same as the Seanchan. They also judge channelers too dangerous and in need of a leash. In the AOL the Aes Sedai worked without being bound by oaths and both WO and Windfinders also have their place in society without the need for compulsion.

 

 

As long as the Asha'man don't break the laws of whatever country they are in at the moment they can do whatever they wish. If say the Asha'man want to become a private company which hires out various services- construction, transportation, communication, intelligence, defense etc- in return for money it's their right to do so and Egwene has no right to object. Even if the Asha'man become filthy rich and powerful that way with various countries depending on their services.

 

There are many bad things they can do that aren't technically breaking the law. What if like Verin, someone figures out how to weave compulsion, or those sparkers whom some have 'little tricks' as they call them are never driven away from using them and it develops into some sort of compulsion? They can manipulate leaders, have people do bad stuff for them without risking themselves getting caught, etc. Or they could go out and start businesses like and with using the OP they are way more faster and run normal people out of business, or make power wrought weapons for any Tom, Dick, and Harry to buy? None of that is 'against the law', but still pretty darn bad.

 

The three oaths haven't stopped the Aes Sedai from all those manipulations you mentioned. Aes Sedai have kidnapped kings and queens, have used blackmail, intimidation and so on to get their way. If the Asha'man did the same how would they be any worse than they are?

 

And the Asha'man business idea is just simple capitalism. In the real world we also use technological advantages to beat out our competitors, so why shouldn't Asha'man use saidin to do the same?

 

 

So what if Logain is holding grudges? It's his right to do so. There is no need for anyone to control the Asha'man. They are free to act in whatever manner they wish to as long as they don't infringe upon the freedom of anyone else.

It is his right to hold a grudge, yeah, but what if he decides to act on it? Just one man of Logain's strength can cause a hell of a lot of damage, as has been proven. And just like my above statement, with out a solid structure to promote responsible behavior, nothing will keep them from infringing on ones freedom. Hell, even some Aes Sedai still do it, to an extent, but without their structure, there would be a lot more who do it and to higher extremes.

 

Also, there is a huge difference between controlling someone and integrating them into a society. They won't be controlling the ashies, they would be working with them as equals. Huge difference.

 

Yeah one man can cause a lot of damage, but until he does or at the very least until he shows the intent of doing it no one has any right to infringe upon his freedom. Besides it's not as if channelers had a monopoly on that anymore. With the advent of gunpowder one man or woman can easily cause massive damage. In the real world theoretically everyone of us could built a bomb and blow up a train or a bus and kill dozens of people. Does that mean we look at everyone as a potential bomber and massmurderer?

 

Channelers are no better or worse than anyone else. The Asha'man will have to work out how to police themselves or no one will trust them just like regular people do.

 

 

That argument doesn't have a leg to stand on. The Asha'man may be a threat to the Aes Sedai world view, but that doesn't give them the right to do anything about it. If hundreds of years down the line Asha'man and Aes Sedai may become enemies that still doesn't give Egwene the right to take away their freedom. As I said it'll be up to the Asha'man whether they want to join the Aes Sedai. If they decide against it that's their right.

 

Actually, in terms of warfare, if they do become enemies, the AS have every right to conquer and take over. That's just the way the world works. Acutally, even if they aren't enemies, the AS have the right to conquer them because because they decide their own rights, like any political body. And they have been in Andor for a lot longer than the Ashies, Andor's queen is even Aes Sedai. It is pretty much their land, and even if it wasn't, Elayne, as Aes Sedai, does have every right to control the Ashies cause it is her kingdom and if she wants them to either become Aes Sedai or suffer the consequences, she every right as ruler to do so.

 

And if you think about it, the only rights the Ashies do have are those Elayne allows them to have. So you're argument is the one that has no leg to stand on. Either they do as she wishes or get disbanded and have to move somewhere else that might not welcome them so warmly.

 

That really makes no sense at all. Aes Sedai have been longer in Andor than Asha'man? Since when did the WT claim any territorial rights in Andor? And Elayne can only control the Asha'man as far as her power goes. She can't control what she can't enforce and if she actively pursued a policy which persecuted the Asha'man there is really nothing to stop the Asha'man from leaving and with as many services as they can provide a number of countries would love to grant them a piece of land in return for their support. And Andor would lose a lot if the Asha'man worked for every other country but not for them. And honestly Elayne is far too smart to allow that. She would broker a deal which gave Andor first access to those services.

 

Who is she to think that the Asha'man need her guidance? Leading a horse to the water? Like they were some sort of dumb beast of burden incapable of thinking for themselves? She is a twenty year old with less life experience than all but the youngest of them. She has never had to work for a living, never had to endure privation and prejudice or face being ostracised or persecuted. She may be a brilliant politician and skilled manipulator but that doesn't mean she knows what's right or wrong for them. Just because the Aes Sedai were a certain way 3,000 years ago doesn't mean the Asha'man have to become that way again unless they themselves want to.

 

You just gave your arguments a lot less credibility with that statement alone that I bolded.

 

 

She worked the inn in TR, before studying to become wisdom. She has worked plenty. And how do explain her time as a damane? Have you even read the first three books? And the Ashies do need guidance. All they know right now is how to be weapons and such, they have no real laws or structure like the Aes Sedai. Now true, the AS are far from having a good solid structure right now and need to improve themselves, but they are now on the way to doing so and would be best for the Ashies to join with them in forging the new age to come.

 

(Edit: Egwene was an inn worker, not a farmer. lol)

 

Reading comprehension is quite the advantage. Because I said that Egwene never had to work for a living, not that she never worked. Helping out in the family and doing chores isn't working for a living. And even when she apprenticed with Nyneave she still lived at home.

 

As for her time as damane I would call that a couple of weeks of slavery, but a very cushy sort of slavery. Yes, I know to use cushy in the context of slavery is a euphemism, but her living conditions were rather cushy compared to what the slaves in our own history suffered through.

 

The Asha'man don't need guidance. They are for the most grown men, they can solve their problems themselves. They may not have set of laws right now, but they can write their own code of behaviour.

 

Aren't americans supposed to be big on the whole personal freedom issue? You know with your ridiculously lax gun laws, equating a raise in the taxes for the extremely wealthy with communist redistribution of wealth, your endless debates on public health insurance and the belief that the state should do as little as absolutely possible. So why do I as a german have to defend the concept of personal freedom from you?

[Edynol]

Ya know, you are your own worst enemy here. You just believe what ya want. Let's just say you are making me look very good at this point, and I thank you for that. lol. Have a nice day.

 

Back on topic, Egwene is definitely not without her flaws, but she is indeed improving. She's only 20 years old at the oldest, not sure how time has passed since leaving the TR. Not only is she one of the youngest Aes Sedai ever raised, she is also the youngest Amyrlin by like 30+ years I'm guessing. She is being forced to grow up really fast, not really being able to enjoy her youth as most people have, which is something she'll never be able to get back. Rather she realizes it or not, that is also having a psychological effect on her.

[Durinax]

Back on topic, Egwene is definitely not without her flaws, but she is indeed improving. She's only 20 years old at the oldest, not sure how time has passed since leaving the TR. Not only is she one of the youngest Aes Sedai ever raised, she is also the youngest Amyrlin by like 30+ years I'm guessing. She is being forced to grow up really fast, not really being able to enjoy her youth as most people have, which is something she'll never be able to get back. Rather she realizes it or not, that is also having a psychological effect on her.

none of the main characters have really had a chance to enjoy their youth, except maybe mat.

and that psychological stuff, after ToM that means nothing to me, after her extremely rapid defeat of teh collar which was her main phobia, and psychologically destroying item/concept

[Edynol]

Rather it means anything to you or not is pointless and irrelevant. And just because a suicidal person overcomes their fear of heights, it doesn't make them any less disturbed, it may well in fact make the more of a danger to themselves or others. Just for example, Eggy, no longer fearing the collar, goes head on into a Seanchan battle and gets collard again, except this time she doesn't get rescued and will eventually get broken and teach them about TAR and making quendillar and all that. I know that won't happen, just an example.

[wookiebear]

Back on topic, Egwene is definitely not without her flaws, but she is indeed improving. She's only 20 years old at the oldest, not sure how time has passed since leaving the TR. Not only is she one of the youngest Aes Sedai ever raised, she is also the youngest Amyrlin by like 30+ years I'm guessing. She is being forced to grow up really fast, not really being able to enjoy her youth as most people have, which is something she'll never be able to get back. Rather she realizes it or not, that is also having a psychological effect on her.

none of the main characters have really had a chance to enjoy their youth, except maybe mat.

and that psychological stuff, after ToM that means nothing to me, after her extremely rapid defeat of teh collar which was her main phobia, and psychologically destroying item/concept

 

The main characters, at least the characters from the Three Rivers region, were on the cusp of adulthood at the beginning of the series. Each was at the point of deciding the path of their futures, or, in the case of Nyne, had already made their decision.

 

Much of the growth in the characters has been the stripping of naiveté and the stripping of preconceptions of the bigger world they were thrust into. Mentally they started more mature than the stated age due to the culture they came from. They were probably more responsible than we conceive 16 to 18 year olds to be. Would some of the characters actions be more believable if you added 2, 5 or possibly even 10 years to their ages?

 

The physiological impacts of the collar have been beaten by Egwene, but I think the impact is still felt by the character, it is just that now she knows she can resist it, at least mentally. If the collar would be placed on her again I think she would successfully resist it even if she could not free herself from it in reality.

 

Regarding comments of the AM, I find it interesting that the authors have chosen to show the maturity of the AM that they focus on. It makes me think that the AS and AM may both become something more together, rather than one subsuming the other. It would follow that a new organization may rise to replace both the Black and White towers, which have flaws, prejudices and, in one instance, histories that would preclude the inclusion of both male and female channelers

 

As always my thoughts are my opinions and worth exactly what you just paid

[Edynol]

That's true enough. Personally, I like the idea of them still both existing, but working together, maybe the Ashies getting their own oath rod or something to prevent bad-doings and such. Like I said before, maybe have them both open up to men and women, allowing men to become Aes Sedai if the choose, and women to become asha'man. (Thought that might shrink the Green Ajah a little, the Ashies wouldn't have 2+ warders like Greens.)

[Thrasymachus]

I don't think the Seanchan could break Egwene anymore. And since she beat the a'dam in Tel'aran'Rhiod, I reckon there's at least a chance she could overcome the nausea and pain of trying to take one off herself in the waking world. And even if she couldn't, and never got rescued, she'd either end up being that damane nobody could get to do anything, or go poo-flinging crazy and turn herself into a crater rather like Lews Therin did with Dragonmount.

 

As for the Asha'man, I rather doubt they'll be taking up residence in the White Tower any time soon. It's possible, but if they do, then they should submit to the White Tower political authority. The White Tower is the only institution that can trace its traditions back to the Age of Legends, when men and women did work together, and are the only institution which would have records of how things could be done in such a way. And Egwene is still the leading political authority in the world, she has an interest in seeing that the Asha'man behave responsibly into the future. Now if the Asha'man tell the Aes Sedai to go piss off, refuse overtures for alliance, and set themselves up as rivals to the Tower, then there's gonna be trouble, and the Asha'man would have a hard time coming out on top of that since they lack the kind of training and institutional support the Aes Sedai have. Logain's not dumb enough to lead the Asha'man down that path, even if he does hold a grudge for being gentled and manipulated, and he, in particular, wouldn't hold a grudge against Nynaeve and Egwene. And if the Asha'man try to set themselves up as the 3rd Age equivalent of Blackwater and General Electric combined, they will quickly wreck the economy, becoming monopoly suppliers of the goods and services they produce, and being put in the position of either having to give away much of the goods and services they do produce (rather like Aes Sedai do), or one of choosing who gets to purchase those goods and services at all (rather like the Aes Sedai do).

 

As for the US being the champions of personal freedom, I understand that Germany has been taking its cues from that faction of US politics and economics that likes to make that claim, to the detriment of most of the rest of Europe and their own working classes. Ya'll would have been better off listening to the faction that believes such fantasies are dangerous nonsense unless intimately linked to social responsibility. And that's the argument here: Egwene and the Aes Sedai, by virtue of their traditions, their history and their abilities, have a social responsibility to "take care of" the Asha'man. The Asha'man likewise have a social responsibility, right now to be living weapons in the Last Battle, but once the Last Battle's over, they'll have to figure out what their social responsibility is. And until they figure that out, that lack of acknowledge social responsibility is an ongoing concern to every other individual and organization that does have an acknowledged social responsibility.

[fionwe1987]

So what if Logain is holding grudges? It's his right to do so.

I kept myself away from responding to most of the nonsense in this thread, but... Logain has a right to hold a grudge? Against women who stopped a False Dragon on the rampage, who had killed thousands of people and wrecked a country and was fated to go mad? How do you figure?

[Edynol]

I don't think the Seanchan could break Egwene anymore. And since she beat the a'dam in Tel'aran'Rhiod, I reckon there's at least a chance she could overcome the nausea and pain of trying to take one off herself in the waking world. And even if she couldn't, and never got rescued, she'd either end up being that damane nobody could get to do anything, or go poo-flinging crazy and turn herself into a crater rather like Lews Therin did with Dragonmount.

 

As for the Asha'man, I rather doubt they'll be taking up residence in the White Tower any time soon. It's possible, but if they do, then they should submit to the White Tower political authority. The White Tower is the only institution that can trace its traditions back to the Age of Legends, when men and women did work together, and are the only institution which would have records of how things could be done in such a way. And Egwene is still the leading political authority in the world, she has an interest in seeing that the Asha'man behave responsibly into the future. Now if the Asha'man tell the Aes Sedai to go piss off, refuse overtures for alliance, and set themselves up as rivals to the Tower, then there's gonna be trouble, and the Asha'man would have a hard time coming out on top of that since they lack the kind of training and institutional support the Aes Sedai have. Logain's not dumb enough to lead the Asha'man down that path, even if he does hold a grudge for being gentled and manipulated, and he, in particular, wouldn't hold a grudge against Nynaeve and Egwene. And if the Asha'man try to set themselves up as the 3rd Age equivalent of Blackwater and General Electric combined, they will quickly wreck the economy, becoming monopoly suppliers of the goods and services they produce, and being put in the position of either having to give away much of the goods and services they do produce (rather like Aes Sedai do), or one of choosing who gets to purchase those goods and services at all (rather like the Aes Sedai do).

 

As for the US being the champions of personal freedom, I understand that Germany has been taking its cues from that faction of US politics and economics that likes to make that claim, to the detriment of most of the rest of Europe and their own working classes. Ya'll would have been better off listening to the faction that believes such fantasies are dangerous nonsense unless intimately linked to social responsibility. And that's the argument here: Egwene and the Aes Sedai, by virtue of their traditions, their history and their abilities, have a social responsibility to "take care of" the Asha'man. The Asha'man likewise have a social responsibility, right now to be living weapons in the Last Battle, but once the Last Battle's over, they'll have to figure out what their social responsibility is. And until they figure that out, that lack of acknowledge social responsibility is an ongoing concern to every other individual and organization that does have an acknowledged social responsibility.

Very well put. And yeah you're most likely right about Egwene not being broken, I was just using that as a possible scenario, nothing to read much into. lol.

 

Anyways, that was basically what I was trying to get at, social responsibility. They have taken on the task of keeping the world safe from all threats, both actual and potential, and the Ashies are indeed a potential threat. Not a threat, a potential threat, there is a difference. They may very well never do anything threatening, but they are just as likely to do so.

[Elan Tedronai]

So what if Logain is holding grudges? It's his right to do so.

I kept myself away from responding to most of the nonsense in this thread, but... Logain has a right to hold a grudge? Against women who stopped a False Dragon on the rampage, who had killed thousands of people and wrecked a country and was fated to go mad? How do you figure?

 

I find it funny logain is going to have a grudge right about now. Because the current head of the female aes sedai gave him his freedom when the rest were looking to gentle him again.

 

Thrasymuchs

 

The black tower is going to be destroyed completely. So where are the ashaman going to reside next? It's obvious with all the forshadowing and prophecies going around. Remember that huge tower elaida was building next to the white tower? Guess who is going to be residing there pretty soon.

[Edynol]

Well, we don't know for sure the BT will be destroyed. I think that it will, but I'm not certain about it. Destroying the BT could just mean defeating all the ones residing in it, the actualy tower itself. It just be heavily damaged like the WT and they rebuild it. But Elaid's tower does seem like a more likely possibility, especially with all these new channelers around now, the Kin, the Windfinders, Seanchan, etc. And they can't all fit into the tower unless we have males sharing rooms with females, which just woldn't be proper. lol.

 

And seeing as Elaida is a big black mark on the list of Amyrlins, it would be kinda fitting making her tower the new BT. Not to mention that, her being a red as well, it would be a huge slap in the face to have what was to be her tower occupied by male channelers. Poetic justice in its truest form right there! LOL!

[Elan Tedronai]

Well, we don't know for sure the BT will be destroyed. I think that it will, but I'm not certain about it. Destroying the BT could just mean defeating all the ones residing in it, the actualy tower itself. It just be heavily damaged like the WT and they rebuild it. But Elaid's tower does seem like a more likely possibility, especially with all these new channelers around now, the Kin, the Windfinders, Seanchan, etc. And they can't all fit into the tower unless we have males sharing rooms with females, which just woldn't be proper. lol.

 

And seeing as Elaida is a big black mark on the list of Amyrlins, it would be kinda fitting making her tower the new BT. Not to mention that, her being a red as well, it would be a huge slap in the face to have what was to be her tower occupied by male channelers. Poetic justice in its truest form right there! LOL!

 

Elaida foretelling, taim, turning of mezar and tarna, the bad blood between various groups at the BT pratically guarnatees all hell will break loose once pevara and androl get beyond that dreamspike.

[Edynol]

Yeah I know. But remember foretelling are more symbolic than straight forward.

[Elan Tedronai]

Yeah I know. But remember foretelling are more symbolic than straight forward.

 

Symbolic? Everything elaida foretold has come to pass with the exception of the BT being rent in fire and blood

[spleen1015]

Mat is my favorite character, but my favorite part of the series is Egwene in the White Tower while putting up her resistence against Elaida. I loved it.

[RandA lThor]

Yeah, that was a really cool part. I really loved how BS wrote that.

[Kahsm]

So what if Logain is holding grudges? It's his right to do so.

I kept myself away from responding to most of the nonsense in this thread, but... Logain has a right to hold a grudge? Against women who stopped a False Dragon on the rampage, who had killed thousands of people and wrecked a country and was fated to go mad? How do you figure?

 

Whoa whoa whoa! Logain is a beloved, kick ass character. How dare you try and remind people how he rampaged a country side for his own personal glory just because he could. EGWENE is the power-hungry Tyrant here, not Logain. I swear, some people and their logic just cannot realize how much more important popularity due to confirmation biases is over any sort of logical comparisons....

[Edynol]

Whoa whoa whoa! Logain is a beloved, kick ass character. How dare you try and remind people how he rampaged a country side for his own personal glory just because he could. EGWENE is the power-hungry Tyrant here, not Logain. I swear, some people and their logic just cannot realize how much more important popularity due to confirmation biases is over any sort of logical comparisons....

^^

I acutally like being reminded of that. Reminds us how dangerous and bad ass he is and how most of the Forsaken and Taim will quiver in his shadow if and when he starts coming after them. :D

[wookiebear]

Whoa whoa whoa! Logain is a beloved, kick ass character. How dare you try and remind people how he rampaged a country side for his own personal glory just because he could. EGWENE is the power-hungry Tyrant here, not Logain. I swear, some people and their logic just cannot realize how much more important popularity due to confirmation biases is over any sort of logical comparisons....

^^

I acutally like being reminded of that. Reminds us how dangerous and bad ass he is and how most of the Forsaken and Taim will quiver in his shadow if and when he starts coming after them. :D

 

you know, one of the things mentioned, and I can't remember which book or by who, is that the pattern will continue to spin our false dragons until the real dragon takes the stage. With the rise of the true Dragon Reborn all remaining false dragons fall, for they are no longer needed by the pattern.

 

Looking at it from that perspective Logan had as little control over whether he declared himself a dragon or not. It was his destiny to be a false dragon, and the actions of a false dragon seem to closely mirror the actions foretold of the dragon, with the rending of the world and the path of destruction the bring wherever they travel. It seems that if the DR is not available to cause the chaos that the pattern demands, it will make due with a substitue until the real one shows up.

 

I also find it interesting that each of the two false dragons introduced in this series are so different. Taim seems to be one that was driven by a desire for conquest and power, while Logain, though he did leave a path of destruction when he was a false dragon, seems bent to the side of good after his return to power. From my recollection You get very little sense of Logain during his false dragon phase, while the character and actions of Taim as a false dragon is laid out by his interactions with other major and minor characters, and that story is neither pleasant nor favorable to Taim

 

I think it is telling how each of them are when confronted by Rand, the DR. Taim seems to think that it could still have been me, that the prophecies are but apocryphal proof that the winner takes on as a mantle, while Logain, though not humble, sees himself as a follower fo the true DR and a faithful lieutenant to the cause of Light. Interesting dichotomy, don't you think.

 

But back to Egwene. I think she let Logain go because, though a false dragon, he was not inherently evil, and in some ways she found him noble and honorable. I have a feeling if the gentled dragon had been Taim, Egwene would not have released him and I doubt that Nyn would have wanted to be near, much less study and eventually heal, this particular incarnation of a false dragon.

[SuperFade]

So what if Logain is holding grudges? It's his right to do so.

I kept myself away from responding to most of the nonsense in this thread, but... Logain has a right to hold a grudge? Against women who stopped a False Dragon on the rampage, who had killed thousands of people and wrecked a country and was fated to go mad? How do you figure?

 

Whoa whoa whoa! Logain is a beloved, kick ass character. How dare you try and remind people how he rampaged a country side for his own personal glory just because he could. EGWENE is the power-hungry Tyrant here, not Logain. I swear, some people and their logic just cannot realize how much more important popularity due to confirmation biases is over any sort of logical comparisons....

 

Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones, particularly when Luckers has already given this topic his warning. Relentless strawmanning and ad hominem attacks are not the signs of a good argument.

 

Just to add in my own thoughts on the matter of Aes Sedai / Asha'man, I think it's likely that both the Black and White Towers will be destroyed in the final book. We already have the prophecy of the Black Tower being rent in fire and blood, and the Seanchan are gearing up for a strike against the White Tower. I think both institutions will find themselves without a home after the Last Battle. What happens afterwards is anyone's guess - personally I don't think there's a pressing need for both organisations to join together, at least initially. It's possible for both to collaborate and work together without being unified under one banner. The prophecy about Logain's glory appears to indicate that he will assume the leadership of the Black Tower at least, but beyond that there's too little evidence to say for sure.

[XXX]

All this talk about the AM potentially being dangerous and the AS having "social responsibility" over them is eerily similar to the Seachan theory of all channelers being potentially dangerous and needing to be leashed like animals.

[XXX]

So what if Logain is holding grudges? It's his right to do so.

I kept myself away from responding to most of the nonsense in this thread, but... Logain has a right to hold a grudge? Against women who stopped a False Dragon on the rampage, who had killed thousands of people and wrecked a country and was fated to go mad? How do you figure?

 

I find it funny logain is going to have a grudge right about now. Because the current head of the female aes sedai gave him his freedom when the rest were looking to gentle him again.

 

Thrasymuchs

 

The black tower is going to be destroyed completely. So where are the ashaman going to reside next? It's obvious with all the forshadowing and prophecies going around. Remember that huge tower elaida was building next to the white tower? Guess who is going to be residing there pretty soon.

 

Well there is no actual BT like the WT. There is Taim's palace but the entire 4 mile walled area is called the BT.

[fionwe1987]

you know, one of the things mentioned, and I can't remember which book or by who, is that the pattern will continue to spin our false dragons until the real dragon takes the stage. With the rise of the true Dragon Reborn all remaining false dragons fall, for they are no longer needed by the pattern.

 

Looking at it from that perspective Logan had as little control over whether he declared himself a dragon or not. It was his destiny to be a false dragon, and the actions of a false dragon seem to closely mirror the actions foretold of the dragon, with the rending of the world and the path of destruction the bring wherever they travel. It seems that if the DR is not available to cause the chaos that the pattern demands, it will make due with a substitue until the real one shows up.

Oh, "the Pattern did it!" argument. I always love it when this rears its head. By this yeardstick, Egwene was also fated to oppose Rand, since Prophesy said she would, and also because the Pattern deliberately shut everyone but Egwene up when Rand addressed the Hall.

 

All this talk about the AM potentially being dangerous and the AS having "social responsibility" over them is eerily similar to the Seachan theory of all channelers being potentially dangerous and needing to be leashed like animals.

The rare valid point.

 

I agree with you, by the way, that the Aes Sedai cannot seek to control the Asha'man to prevent a future conflict. In fact, I don't think they should seek to control the Asha'man at all. I'm fairly sure they'll merge on equal terms though. The Guardians will balance the servants, and under the united Aes Sedai symbol, Rand will conquer, after all.

[Edynol]

Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones, particularly when Luckers has already given this topic his warning. Relentless strawmanning and ad hominem attacks are not the signs of a good argument.

It was a joke dude. You're the one attacking here.

 

you know, one of the things mentioned, and I can't remember which book or by who, is that the pattern will continue to spin our false dragons until the real dragon takes the stage. With the rise of the true Dragon Reborn all remaining false dragons fall, for they are no longer needed by the pattern.

 

Looking at it from that perspective Logan had as little control over whether he declared himself a dragon or not. It was his destiny to be a false dragon, and the actions of a false dragon seem to closely mirror the actions foretold of the dragon, with the rending of the world and the path of destruction the bring wherever they travel. It seems that if the DR is not available to cause the chaos that the pattern demands, it will make due with a substitue until the real one shows up.

 

I also find it interesting that each of the two false dragons introduced in this series are so different. Taim seems to be one that was driven by a desire for conquest and power, while Logain, though he did leave a path of destruction when he was a false dragon, seems bent to the side of good after his return to power. From my recollection You get very little sense of Logain during his false dragon phase, while the character and actions of Taim as a false dragon is laid out by his interactions with other major and minor characters, and that story is neither pleasant nor favorable to Taim

 

I think it is telling how each of them are when confronted by Rand, the DR. Taim seems to think that it could still have been me, that the prophecies are but apocryphal proof that the winner takes on as a mantle, while Logain, though not humble, sees himself as a follower fo the true DR and a faithful lieutenant to the cause of Light. Interesting dichotomy, don't you think.

 

But back to Egwene. I think she let Logain go because, though a false dragon, he was not inherently evil, and in some ways she found him noble and honorable. I have a feeling if the gentled dragon had been Taim, Egwene would not have released him and I doubt that Nyn would have wanted to be near, much less study and eventually heal, this particular incarnation of a false dragon.

I never thought of that. Makes sense. Another reason I can't wait to see a Logain/Taim Showdown. lol.