Will we get new forsaken?

[mlva103]

?

[mlva103]

oops I wanted to put this under MOL not general.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think the mods will move it for ya.

 

To answer the question. I think it is possible.

 

Aginor and Mesaana are candidates, since they were not balefired.

 

Not sure how Mesaana goes, since she is not dead, but she has not been balefired, and if a DF kills whats left of her, I suppose she could be brought back.

 

I am not sure if you are talking about "new" as in outside the original 13. Because Forsaken is only the term given to those who turned in the War of Shadow. Just a nitpick point, but I am not sure if a 3rd ager could be called "forsaken".

 

What separates a forsaken from the Dreadlords is the "mark" of the DO which gives them command over Myrddraal and Shadowspawn. So I suppose new Forsaken could arise.

 

The most likely is Taim, if he is just a 3rd ager.

[fikkie77]

The DO might appoint new Chosen (or already has: Taim and Alviarin), but they won't get the samen 'acknowledgement' as the old Forsaken. Those 13 had millenia of time to become stories of legend.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Aliviarin is dead, if I remember correctly.

 

In the TAR battle in ToM with Mesaana and Black Ajah.

 

But I agree with the rest of what you said, them being "lesser" Chosen.

[Finnssss22]

One does have to consider the significance of there being Eleven chairs at the Chosen meeting in KoD chapter 3.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Aliviarin is dead, if I remember correctly.

 

In the TAR battle in ToM with Mesaana and Black Ajah.

 

 

No she lived, I believe you're thinking of Katerine who Egwene killed with the spear.

The last time we saw Aliviarin was after Mesaana captured Egwene in TAR and then Mesaana gave Aliviarin the order to withdraw.

[TristanWebb]

I thought the difference between your standard DF and the Forsaken was that they had been given immortality? Though there is that scene where one of them talks about giving their soul to the DO in shayol ghul.

 

I don't think there is much point is making new Forsaken at this point in time though. There will be dreadlords to counter the undarkened Asha'man and AS, but there isn't really anyone in this Age that the DO needs heavy hitters to one on one besides Rand, and I think his power would be better spent elsewhere. Especially since everyone serving him now is doing so for the promise of immortality, giving it to them doesn't seem like it would help too much.

 

That is under the assumption that they don't get superpowered or something by being a forsaken of course.

[Barid Bel Medar]

One does have to consider the significance of there being Eleven chairs at the Chosen meeting in KoD chapter 3.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Aliviarin is dead, if I remember correctly.

 

In the TAR battle in ToM with Mesaana and Black Ajah.

 

 

No she lived, I believe you're thinking of Katerine who Egwene killed with the spear.

The last time we saw Aliviarin was after Mesaana captured Egwene in TAR and then Mesaana gave Aliviarin the order to withdraw.

 

Hmm, you are correct probably, I thnk I was thinking of Katerine.

 

disregard my comment

[Terez]

Brandon has pretty much written Mesaana off, so her return seems unlikely, as does the return of Aginor since he's already been brought back once.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Oh nice, haven't seen that one. Not that her return was ever likely in the first place. I still wonder if her body can't be used by the DO in some way. Brandon does seem fond of Zombies in WoT haha.

[Pinzarn]

I would be fine with one or two new people being elevated to Chosen level. I could see it being necessary for some of the outrigger plans that were previously discussed, and there are a handful of people that would be likely candidates. The one downside is that the original Chosen had hundreds of years to develop into the specimens that they are (before being sealed), but our current cast has only have a handful of years to exalt their exploits.

[RandA lThor]

I think that Taim will be the only possible Chosen that will be promoted, no one else should be elevated, not even Alviarin, she's not even that good at manipuiating people, she can't even manipulate Elaida. Taim on the other hand got Rand to believe in him which is a way larger acheivement.

 

I also think that if Mesaana was killed, she would turn up brain dead when raised by the DO because she was that in TAR. I think TAR has something to do with how he raises people. Also, I don't think that Asmodean will be raised at all for his unwilling treachery.

[A Rant Lord]

I think now in these last moments it is actually vital that the DO promotes 3rd ager to the ranks of Forsaken. Just to show the others that rewards such as those could be within reach, it would press them to fight for the shadow all the way. It would be a shame (also for the light) if even 1 or 2 of your well placed captains/generals/dreadlords (think of Taim) decides not to follow you anymore because the rewards seem never to come or be within reach.

[Water_Weaver]

I think that it is unlikely that we will see any new Forsaken before the end of the series. The Forsaken are what they are because they are well known and feared even in the Third Age and I don't see any individuals from the Third Age possessing or cultivating the kind of reputation that would make people look back on them in awe and terror. I just can't see any current character gaining that level of notoriety unless they do something extreme, such as Taim sacking Caemlyn and feeding its population to trollocs.

 

Water

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think that it is unlikely that we will see any new Forsaken before the end of the series. The Forsaken are what they are because they are well known and feared even in the Third Age and I don't see any individuals from the Third Age possessing or cultivating the kind of reputation that would make people look back on them in awe and terror. I just can't see any current character gaining that level of notoriety unless they do something extreme, such as Taim sacking Caemlyn and feeding its population to trollocs.

 

Water

 

Their notoriety is not what makes them Forsaken. A Forsaken, or Chosen, is simply a higher level above Dreadlords.

 

What sets them apart is the Forsaken or Chosen mark which allows them to command Shadowspawn.

 

If Taim has been given this mark, he is a Forsaken, regardless what people think of him.

[TristanWebb]

It's odd then. The trolloc wars had hordes of trollocs pour from the blight and destroy enough to make it a breaking point in history (they started a new calendar then I think?). With only Ishamael free, how could he direct so many? Dreadlords abounded, so presumably they had enough power to make the Myrrdraal do what they wanted (Fain can break one away from the DO, surely the OP would be enough to make it do what you wanted in service to him). The Gholam was the only one that really seemed to be bound to serve rather than serving out of fear.

 

Not to mention the Shadowspawn are all constructs, there has to be something more to the Forsaken than just being able to control them. Something Aginor and the others who worked with him just latched the control onto. Or it is less and they do it out fear with the Gholam constructed to obey whoever was Forsaken at the time of creation.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Here is a bit of a clarification:

 

INTERVIEW: Jan 25th, 2005

TOR Questions of the Week Part II (Verbatim)

ROBERT JORDAN

First off, Dreadlords was the name given to men and women who could channel and sided with the Shadow in the Trolloc Wars. Yes, the women were called Dreadlords, too. They might have liked to call themselves "the Chosen," like the Forsaken, but feared to. The real Forsaken might not have appreciated it when they returned, as prophecies of the Shadow foretold would happen. Some of the Dreadlords had authority and responsibility equivalent to that of the Forsaken in the War of the Shadow, however. They ran the Shadow's side of the Trolloc Wars, though without the inherent ability to command the Myrddraal that the Forsaken possess, meaning they had to negotiate with them. Overall command at the beginning was in another's hands.

 

Forsaken was the name given to Aes Sedai who went over to the Shadow in the War of the Shadow at the end of the Age of Legends, though of course, they called themselves the Chosen, and despite the tales of the "current" Age, there were many more than a few of them. Since they occupied all sorts of levels, you might say that many were equivalent to some of the lesser Dreadlords, but it would be incorrect to call them so. At the time, they were all Forsaken—or Chosen—from the greatest to the least.

 

Technically, no 3rd Ager can become a Forsaken. However, in terms of the importance, the Mark of the Chosen, to control Shadowspawn, is the difference between merely Dreadlord and a "3rd Age Chosen". That is the way that the DO distinguishes them from the rest of the pack. That and the True Power, however, only 19 people (well, at least in the WoS until present, I won't speculate about other ages, where likely people had used it) had ever been granted access, it is not the best indicator of a "Chosen" level, as not even all of the remaining Forsaken have access to it. We only know of Moridin and Graendal. So, apart form being from the AoL, the only real difference is the Chosen Mark. The Mark of the DO's responsibility, I suppose.

 

So the Dreadlords did much for the Shadow, many would have been marked like Aliviarin, marked as the "property" of the DO, so that Shadowspawn won't attack you, but they won't obey either. With these Marks, the Dreadlords could do their "negotiations". Most likely Threats, display of power, fear, goading or even promises (although I have no idea what you could promise a Myrddraal) And Myrddraal are crafty bastards, they wouldn't need a human to hold their hand on the battlefield. There wouldn't need to be THAT much human control, just organization and a general overseeing of the war. Once the armies got going, I would say it would be harder to actually stop them than getting them to attack.

 

And yes, the Forsaken are not just any person with the Mark. Certain talents and power is needed to become one of the Chosen. While they are distinguished by the Mark, they had to be very talented to receive it in the first place. It is kind of like a Heron-Marked Blade. The Heron marks them as a sword-master, but one has to earn the title first, not just owning the Heron.

[TristanWebb]

So Forsaken are every AS who turned in the AoL, and the 13 known to Randlanders are just the ones who managed to stay alive. The ability to control the Myrddraal seems secondary and could be a Lost Talent of the Dark or the DO using the TP inside them to tell them to obey.

 

EDIT: well, not lost but unused.

[Barid Bel Medar]

It is the Mark of the DO. They most probably went to Shayol Ghul to get it.

 

Have a look at the scene where Aliviarin gets Marked by Shaidar Haran. It is not something someone can actually weave or use. IT is the DO's mark.

 

And it is not the whole reason they can control Shadowspawn. IT is not like compulsion. It is like the DO's mark of superiority. The Myrddraal don't HAVE to obey, but it would be like disobeying the DO's preferences, which is basically non-existent.

 

 

INTERVIEW: Jul 19th, 2005

TOR Questions of the Week Part III (Verbatim)

 

ROBERT JORDAN

The mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran was not the same as that given to the Forsaken, though it shares one function: Shadowspawn will recognize her as belonging to the Dark One. They will not obey her as they will the Forsaken, however, but she doesn't have to worry about one trying to kill her, either. She is not any sort of lesser Chosen. You might think of it more like the tattoo some people get put inside the ear of their dog, an identification so others will know who the dog belongs to as soon as they see it.

 

INTERVIEW: Jan 25th, 2005

TOR Questions of the Week Part II (Verbatim)

 

ROBERT JORDAN

The gholam—singular and plural are the same—were created, not bred. Supposedly their creation involved making them so that they would be obedient to the Chosen, whoever they might be at any given time. This was an attempt at copying something that had turned up in Myrddraal, which seem incapable of disobeying one of the Chosen, possibly because of the use of the True Power in creation of the Trollocs, the parent stock of the Myrddraal. Even Aginor, who created the Trollocs, and thus indirectly the Myrddraal, was uncertain about the actual cause. (Becoming one of the Forsaken involves receiving a mark from the Dark One in return for your oaths; this mark is invisible and cannot be sensed by another human being, even another of the Forsaken, but it can be by certain non-human creatures, including Myrddraal and Draghkar among others. This may play a part in the Myrddraal's obedience but doesn't explain it completely.) This element in gholam has some flaws, however, as we have seen in a small measure. In any case, if I were you, I wouldn't try giving orders to a gholamunless I were one of the Forsaken.

[TristanWebb]

Man, myrddraals being accidents cause all sorts of problems don't they. So the mark is a brand on the person saying the DO owns them, for his benefit rather than anything else. A happy side effect of this for them is that the shadowspawn can sense it (because they were created using the TP?) and know they are someone the DO likes.

 

Alviarin got a lesser version either on purpose or becaus SH didn't have the power outside SG to give the big version. Is that about right?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah, Myrddraal are a problem for humans. The DO loves them (as seen with SH) but with even Aginor is weary of them (he who basically created them.)

 

Not quite! On the right track though.

 

1. Shadowspawn sensing is in fact the main reason for the marks. So the DO's minions recognize them as his.

 

2.The mark Aliviarin received was a lesser version on purpose. The DO never intended to make her a Chosen. She is just a tool, SH marks her like you would put a microchip in your dog's ear. (In fact that is how RJ describes it in the quote)

 

3. The Chosen Mark is like a mark of authority. It is the DO's way of showing Shadowspawn that this human is important to him. Kind of like giving them a title, saying "VIP".

The Myrddraal and Shadowspawn know that these guys have the DO's favour, they have his "trust" in regards to Shadowspawn, unless they receive any other info from the DO, they should treat them like they are their superior.

 

4. It is difficult to say if SH has the power outside of SG to give the Chosen Mark. I said they had to go to SG because they get it from the DO. SH, however, is a "shadowy manifestation" of the DO. SH may have the power to give the Mark outside of SG. however, the Mark that Aliviarin was given was intentional. If the DO wanted to raise her to a Chosen, she would have gone to SG or SH would have given her the mark.

[Sharaman]

One problem with new Chosen - they were all very strong OP users, evn if that wasn't a primary criteria.

Unless the GLoD lowers his standards, there aren't that many candidates.

Perhaps five women who are Chosen-class, Nyn, Alivia, Sharina, Someryn, Talaan and perhaps two men apart from Rand - Taim and Logain. Who else that we know of?

[TootThatHorn]

For me thinking about this topic, i just dont see this particular age as the type where forsaken are gathered up. We dont know an aweful lot about other ages and what not other than i believe ishamaels rants about fighting rand time and time again, but i feel like this is more an age where the forsaken are done away with. Then the DO will have to focus on gaining followers in the next age, given that i think that i think the 4th age will be one of prosperity and celebration of release from the DO all together, well, for awhile anyways. And like Sharaman said, who really fits the bill? Not really anyone from what i can tell, taim maybe but i feel as though he is gonna get it handed to him pretty good and that will be the end of him.

[Charlz Guybon]

Here is a bit of a clarification:

 

INTERVIEW: Jan 25th, 2005

TOR Questions of the Week Part II (Verbatim)

ROBERT JORDAN

First off, Dreadlords was the name given to men and women who could channel and sided with the Shadow in the Trolloc Wars. Yes, the women were called Dreadlords, too. They might have liked to call themselves "the Chosen," like the Forsaken, but feared to. The real Forsaken might not have appreciated it when they returned, as prophecies of the Shadow foretold would happen. Some of the Dreadlords had authority and responsibility equivalent to that of the Forsaken in the War of the Shadow, however. They ran the Shadow's side of the Trolloc Wars, though without the inherent ability to command the Myrddraal that the Forsaken possess, meaning they had to negotiate with them. Overall command at the beginning was in another's hands.

 

Forsaken was the name given to Aes Sedai who went over to the Shadow in the War of the Shadow at the end of the Age of Legends, though of course, they called themselves the Chosen, and despite the tales of the "current" Age, there were many more than a few of them. Since they occupied all sorts of levels, you might say that many were equivalent to some of the lesser Dreadlords, but it would be incorrect to call them so. At the time, they were all Forsaken—or Chosen—from the greatest to the least.

 

Technically, no 3rd Ager can become a Forsaken.

If Taim is his own man and is named one of the Chosen then he would certainly be labeled Forsaken by Rand. After all the word is emblematic of betrayal with no hope of redemption. Taim's usurpation of the Black Tower is comparable to the defection of Demandred or Sammael in the War of Power.

[RandA lThor]

This is true, however, there were also dreadlords in the War of Power and powerful ones too. Taim might command the dreadlords, but the possiblity that he becomes a forsaken is small. Other forsaken would rip him apart. We see an example when the other forsaken thought about what would happen if Rand turned.