Will Perrin Die

[spoke]

Jordan loved to foreshadow in very subtle was. A great example is the conversation between Perrin and Bashere, about how if Bashere took Faile away, he would take her back. and Bashere Comments that Perrin would take her out of an army camp (Perrin rescuing Faile from the Aiel).

 

One of the many comments throughout the series is about Faile continuing on after Perrin Dies. There are quotes of her saying that she will carry his banner even after he dies. There is the Two Rivers arguments about how she won't let him die. Namely Perrin muses about his own death quite a lot. So will Perrin die?

[FarShainMael]

If he does that will be a serious problem for the Light. In TDR5, a Myrddraal attacking Perrin says: "Cut one leg of the tripod, and all fall down." We can assume that the Fade means the three ta'veren.

 

Then there's Min's Viewing of Perrin and a 'broken crown'. The current heir to the Broken Crown of Saldaea is Bashere, uncle of Queen Tenobia; if both of those die, Faile is next in line - and of course, she's married to Perrin. But she's not the heir yet. If that Viewing means that Faile and Perrin have to formally ascend the throne of Saldaea, it seems unlikely that this will happen until after the LB.

 

On the third hand, there's T'A'R. If Perrin the Wolf King is indeed a HotH, and is killed, he may be summoned out of T'A'R (with Rand?) and fight for the Light at Mat's call.

[squallor]

I personally think that it is important the Perrin will die. My thoughts on this are less based on physical evidence in the books, but more of the philosophy behind it. Personally, I don't feel like Perrin has much to do in this whole series as a critically important character. He has the wolves/Two Rivers Folk, and can pwn up some baddies in TAR, but honestly, he is only bringing a little bit to the table for the war.

 

The way that I have always envisioned the Ta'Veren is that each will be the leader for each of the sides of the Last Battle. Mat has been groomed to be the leading general for the light as we all know. He represents the physical fight that will happen during the last book, all of his experiences lead up to this. Rand is fighting the magical battles: taking out the Forsaken, will have to confront Moridin, and after VoG, he has all the knowledge of channeling from AoL. Both of there plots throughout the series have been specially tailored to get them ready for the final goal.

 

Now we have to look at what Perrin is being prepped for. We all know that he has to take out Slayer, but that is the only threat that we have really seen in TAR, and honestly pales in comparison to most other issues in Randland atm. All of Perrin's trials in the books have been about passion and loyalty to those he loves. He is by far the most spiritually resolute of the three characters, showing he is willing to make any personal sacrifice needed to protect people. We also have many many links to TAR being the world of the dead. It is the waiting place for heroes to be reborn, and the resting place for the wolves. Another curious fact about TAR is that you cannot enter the blight while there. We also know that the DO is aka The Lord of Graves, and has some control over souls in the afterlife.

 

To round it all off, we know that Rand has to die. Like someone mentioned on another thread in this board, I don't think that the reason for this is just to be dramatic, but he will have to do something while there. I believe the reason that LT only patched the bore was because it was only sealed in the physical realm, and not in the spiritual. (As a side note, I also believe that the Blight is what it is because of the DO's influence on TAR, and not the other way around. Life is sickly/dead in the Blight because of its detachment from the spiritual realm.) Rand, while dead, will have to confront this evil while in the supernatural realm, and this is where Perrin will save him for the second time (not VoG as some believe). While I know none of this is proof that Perrin has to die, but I feel it be limiting for Perrin to still be partially attached to the physical realm during this final confrontation. Mat will hold things down there. Perrin has to be Rand's backup in TAR.

 

As another note, I don't feel like Perrin has a purpose in Randland anymore. His love life was settled earliest in the series, so we have seem him grow romantically as he needed to. As OP mentioned Faile will be able to take care of things without him. I feel like him finally getting to TAR would be his final step in finding peace with who he is. To me it is the appropriately poetic ending for his character, and thematically fits with the type of person that he is.

 

Anyway, that was all just rambling on my gut feelings. Like I said, I have no real proof, other than it seems to fit more than any other plot resolution we can give him as a character.

[DaoineSidhe]

I am very torn about the idea of Perrin dying. Not because of personal feelings towards him, but more because I feel that of all the ta'veren, his foreshadowing in the books has left his fate more up in the air than the others. We KNOW Rand has to die at some point, in some way, regardless of whether he comes back or not. ALL the prophecies say so that we've ever heard, it is going to happen. By the same token, I tend to think that most of us are fairly secure in our belief that Matt is not going to die, and is probably primed to be the BMOC in post-TG Randland. He's got the political ties, he's got the technological power that is going to dominate the future, and let's face it: if a bloody flaming gholam can't kill Matt Cauthon, who bloody can?

 

Perrin, on the other hand, it seems to me, has had foreshadowing for and against him dying.

 

First, for him dying: Number one has to be the recently revealed Dark Prophecy. The only other Dark Prophecy we know of (from tGH, scribbled in the jail of Fal Dara) has come true in every way that we can see so far. In addition, Verin (I believe, but not entirely sure) said something close to “Dark Prophecies have just as much a surprising habit of coming true as do those for the Light.” In addition to this, as has already been said, Faile's mention of taking up his weapon if he were to fall does have some slight foreshadowing in it I think (although I tend to believe this more foreshadows Davram's death more than Perrin's). And the final reason for me is just simply his risk taking. Of all the ta'veren, Perrin is the most front-line fighter. He is the “Bannerman”, and he is almost always in the Van of battle. It makes some of his battle scenes very interesting, but well, as Matt has pointed out on many occasions, smart leaders lead from the back. (Not to say Perrin is dumb, just that its much riskier up there.) Simple arithmetic makes Perrin more likely to die.

 

However... for reasons of him not dying: The books have been very clear that we need all three ta'veren together to defeat the DO. If one falls before TG, then the world seems to be headed for bad news, regardless of Rand Sedai's new powers. This seems to make the idea of any of the three dying before TG very unlikely, if not downright impossible. (Although I suppose RJ could have been fooling us all these years, and is really setting up for a George RR Martin-like purge of main characters, and having the DO win.. :-o) Not only this, but in many ways I think Perrin could be poised to be the big hero post-TG. He is a creator archetype, someone who is able to mold disparate parts and bring them together to form something new, and stronger than simply the addition of the pieces. The Two Rivers are very central to Randland, and are at the crossroads of two emerging world powers, with somewhat friendly dealings with both (Andor/Ghealdan/Saldea/Cairhien bloc, and the Seanchan Empire). If post-TG is going to be a somewhat peaceful one, then I would look to Perrin to be the center of that, as the forger, smith, creator. To be able to fulfill this promise, he would have to live, and not die. Also, as has been said before, for the Broken Crown viewing Min had of Perrin to come true, he would probably need to survive TG (although I suppose Davram and Tenobia could die before TG, and then Perrin dies.. doesn't seem too likely given how many have died so far, but it is the last book..)

 

 

Hrmm... after editing this post, the evidence I can see seems to point to Perrin=Dead, but I could be missing some things. Any better arguments for him living?

[squallor]

This seems to make the idea of any of the three dying before TG very unlikely, if not downright impossible.

 

I don't think that is necessary. I am by no means an expert, but does it ever say that the 3 have to be ALIVE for the LB? I think Perrin could kick it and still help be key to a victory in TAR. It has been a big part of of the series, but I still feel like it could have a bigger role to play as part of the pattern.

[FarShainMael]

Rand, while dead, will have to confront this evil while in the supernatural realm, and this is where Perrin will save him for the second time (not VoG as some believe).

 

It may be that VoG, not Dumai's Wells, was the first time Perrin 'had to be there' to prevent 'something bad happening to' Rand. And he was in T'A'R at the time, which fits the 'Rand's backup in T'A'R ' scenario.

 

Of course, given Perrin's wolf-like abilities with T'A'R - such as dispersing balefire - he doesn't necessarily have to be dead to operate from there.

 

 

Do the three ta'veren have to be alive? All we have on that, I think, is 'the three shall be one'. Though not sure if that's possible if two of them are dead..

[squallor]

Do the three ta'veren have to be alive? All we have on that, I think, is 'the three shall be one'. Though not sure if that's possible if two of them are dead..

 

True, I'm just questioning how dead is dead for these people? We know at least Rand is HotH, and it would be no surprise if Mat and Perrin were too. Perrin also might go on to TAR anyway because of his wolfbrotherness.

[FarShainMael]

Do the three ta'veren have to be alive? All we have on that, I think, is 'the three shall be one'. Though not sure if that's possible if two of them are dead..

 

True, I'm just questioning how dead is dead for these people? We know at least Rand is HotH, and it would be no surprise if Mat and Perrin were too. Perrin also might go on to TAR anyway because of his wolfbrotherness.

 

It's just been pointed out that Rand is prob not a HotH:

 

I find it hard to believe that Rand will die and go to TAR.  I don’t think he will ever be a Hero of the Horn because the whole purpose of the Horn is to be blown for the LB.  Plus when they are called, LTT doesn’t show up or any of the other Dragons thru time.  So why would Rand be different? Plus that would bring in to discussion whether or not Bridgette is still linked to the Horn.  When the Call is sounded, will she come face to face with herself?

However, Rand does seem to have unique abilities with T'A'R, so we may see him there yet!

[squallor]

I find it hard to believe that Rand will die and go to TAR. I don’t think he will ever be a Hero of the Horn because the whole purpose of the Horn is to be blown for the LB. Plus when they are called, LTT doesn’t show up or any of the other Dragons thru time. So why would Rand be different? Plus that would bring in to discussion whether or not Bridgette is still linked to the Horn. When the Call is sounded, will she come face to face with herself?

However, Rand does seem to have unique abilities with T'A'R, so we may see him there yet!

 

Wait, really? I just thought Rand etc wouldn't be called since they are alive. I imagine Bridgitte will stay exactly where she is since she exists in the living world.

 

Going off topic, I just had a thought about the HoV and everything we've been talking about with TAR. What if the Horn actually just creates a juxtaposition of sorts with TAR and the waking world? Maybe this is why we need the HoV for the Last Battle, rather than just for a super army? If Rand dies, is brought back via HoV, and does the sealing of the bore while TAR is tied to the real world via the horn? The two must be as one after all.

[TootThatHorn]

im pretty sure rand is a hero, thats why hawkwing calls him LT...he doesnt show up when its called because he his soul has been reborn, and yes, the horn has to be at the last battle, but that says nothing about him being dead and the horn being blown another time, even centuries in the future, and at that point rand would show up

 

I find it hard to believe that Rand will die and go to TAR. I don’t think he will ever be a Hero of the Horn because the whole purpose of the Horn is to be blown for the LB. Plus when they are called, LTT doesn’t show up or any of the other Dragons thru time. So why would Rand be different? Plus that would bring in to discussion whether or not Bridgette is still linked to the Horn. When the Call is sounded, will she come face to face with herself?

 

 

birgitte is a weird one though given she wasnt born, and imagine what she may think when cain doesnt show up

[DaoineSidhe]

I feel fairly certain that Rand cannot be called back from the dead by the HoV. If you read the scene in tGH when the Horn is blown, there are some strict rules required for the HotH to participate in a fight:

 

-Presence of the Dragon Soul (Hawkwing mentions this, that Rand (or if in another Age, presumably some other Dragon Soul person) must be present)

-Dragon Banner

 

Hawkwing seems to imply that without these things being present when the Horn is called, the HotH would not be able to participate in a battle. Also look at how the HotH's battle with Seanchan was directly tied to Rand's battle w/Ishamael. Rand must be alive, and fight against the shadow in order for the HotH to participate in battle. Of course, if Rand were DarkRand, then the HotH could fight for the shadow, but again they would be linked to Rand's battle against whoever he is fighting against.

 

Due to these reasons, I find it very unlikely that Rand will be "reborn" during TG through the blowing of the HoV. Just my thoughts.

[Randommer]

Hmm... It hadn't really occurred to me until DaoineSídhe pointed it out that Perrin is the only Ta'veren whose fate we don't know something about. We know Mat will live, and we know Rand will die and be brought back in some way (though maybe not permanently).

 

I hadn't really thought Perrin would die, but the dark prophecy in ToM made me think otherwise. That and all the foreshadowing that he would risk anything for Faile, his failure to save his family, etc. So now I think that if Faile dies or is captured again, Perrin will probably die saving her (and maybe Bashere will bite it the same way, since that viewing of Min's has to be fulfilled). I couldn't see Perrin dying in any other circumstance - I can't think of anything else that would be fulfilling plot-wise.

[FarShainMael]

I feel fairly certain that Rand cannot be called back from the dead by the HoV.  If you read the scene in tGH when the Horn is blown, there are some strict rules required for the HotH to participate in a fight:

 

-Presence of the Dragon Soul (Hawkwing mentions this, that Rand (or if in another Age, presumably some other Dragon Soul person) must be present)

-Dragon Banner

 

Hawkwing seems to imply that without these things being present when the Horn is called, the HotH would not be able to participate in a battle.  Also look at how the HotH's battle with Seanchan was directly tied to Rand's battle w/Ishamael.  Rand must be alive, and fight against the shadow in order for the HotH to participate in battle.  Of course, if Rand were DarkRand, then the HotH could fight for the shadow, but again they would be linked to Rand's battle against whoever he is fighting against.

 

Due to these reasons,  I find it very unlikely that Rand will be "reborn" during TG through the blowing of the HoV.  Just my thoughts.

 

Mine also. See here:

 

 

http://www.dragonmou...g/#entry2270520

[Kaznen]

I think Faile's vow to "pick up his sword if he falls" she made to him in LoC was a Saladean custom for women. They are known for the officers and noblemen bringing their wives to battle. And if the husband dies, the wife picks up his sword and fights on.

[Maleshub]

Aside from whether Perrin will die or not by the end, a questioned came to mind as I thought about the 3 ta'veren up till the end of ToM ..... Rand lost a hand; Mat lost an eye; Will Perrin lose something before TG and what might it be?

[FarShainMael]

Well, Perrin has had an injury to his leg from Slayer (ToM37). The wound still gives him trouble even after Healing:

 

Perrin turned as the portal closed. As he stepped, he felt a faint throbbing from his leg, where Slayer's arrow had hit him. He had been Healed of that wound, and from what he'd been able to tell, the Healing had been complete. There was no injury. But his leg.. it felt like it could remember the wound anyway. It was like a shadow, very faint, almost unnoticeable.

 

I don't think Perrin will lose that leg; but he may end up lame (especially when he's in T'A'R..?). Lame blacksmiths turn up a lot in mythology:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestus

[Barid Bel Medar]

Perrin dying before Tarmon Gai'don is out of the question. TG has already begun.

 

It is true that nothing states that Perrin has actually be alive, but he needs to be there till the end. All three of the boys are tied together, Min first says that the three, plus the others of the original fellowship will be needed, then we have numerous other Dreams, fortellings, viewings, prophecies, Myrddraal taunts, appearing-in-each-others-heads and the constant feelings that they have to be together at the end which pretty much confirm that it would not go down well if one of them died permanently before the end.

 

Personally, I think they must stay alive until Rand dies, but it is a possibility that Perrin could die and help out 'round TAR instead, although why would it be Perrin? Egwene is arguably more experienced in TAR and at least as familiar as Perrin. I would think Egwene would be a better candidate for TAR help, not that she is any better, just because I think she is more methodical, which would be a bigger help in regards to the Shadow. Perrin's style is primal and instinctive, it is good for fighting, but I can't think that there will just be an all out TAR war, I think Rand will need help, if any, in controlling and manipulating the aspects of TAR, dealing with the OP and ter'angreal (although Perrin has no problem defending against the OP in TAR, he has no experience actually using it) and possibly something to do with the Blight, which is so far inaccessible via TAR, which is more Egwene's line of work than Perrin's.

 

I think that the whole prophecy about Perrin dying is a misinterpretation though. Usually when something like that is thought to be inevitable or something is thought to be impossible, it turns out wrong. It is too straight-forward, especially for the Wheel of Time. In fact, most of the more hardcore fans believe that it is not even in relation to Perrin, but someone else, not that it means they are necessarily right, just that there is significant doubt over the nature of the prophecy.

[ptolemy99]

Perrin to me strikes me as the most likely of the three that would go over to the shadow. I'm surprised the Forsaken didn't work harder on achieving that goal. Just like Anakin was turned to the dark side over fear of losing Amidala. If they could have turned him, it would have insured Rand's failure. Perring definitely is the most prone to actually sacrifice the greater good for his own personal passion. At least, so it seems to me.

[Theodisc]

I wish Faile would die because she's a pain in the arse. But I dont wish Faie would die because then Perrin would give himself over to the lupe and...die, or commit suicide... *sigh*

[moldham]

I think so just the feel I got from all the books, for some reason it seems like he's got his life more or less figured out, he'll knock Faile up and then die in the last battle.

 

sidenote: I hope at the end of the book they have a little x number of years later segment for whoever is still alive. It was pretty wicked at the end of the Harry Potter series

 

good comparison on the anakin/perrin now that you mention it I could have seen him doing something similar

[RandA lThor]

The whole time all the Forsaken were trying to defeat him and win because Perrin has to be withRand o he dies, so I don't think Perrin can die.

[dazparra]

i think we are all forgetting that AMOL isn't going to wrap everything up. Yes Perrin may die by the shadows hands, but that could be well after TG.

After all we know the fight against the shadow is going to last long into the future with mins viewing that rands children will be important in the fight against the shadow... so the fight with the bad guys is going to last another 20 years yet.

once the bore is sealed there will still be millions of trollocs, thousands of fades, draghkar, etc to kill. there will still be darfriends running around fighting the light and each other for power.

[RandA lThor]

This opens a curious perspective, will a good portion of the book take place after TG ends?

[TravisMay6]

I hope so. At least some of the book has to be dedicated to the post-apocalypse! If it's just the epilogue I might be content, if it's more, I'll be happy.

[RandA lThor]

Right, but I am talking about more than post-apocalypse, i am talking post-post apocalypse, like looking at what will happen to Seanchean and Aiel, will they have that ever mentioned in there.