Update on Taim, intense revelation!!!

fikkie77 · May 27, 2012

On 5/27/2012 at 11:04 AM, Barid Bel Medar said:

Moggy and Cyndane are not changed by the Mindtrap. They are still themselves. They don't become mindless sacks of evil.

Edit: will link to Mindtrapp :)

Mezar's description is perfectly in line with what a warped personality would be.

Both Tarna and Mezar still have personalities, they just look cold and lifeless.

Which is what you would expect.

Remember this is not a scientific report on Mezar, it is what Androl thinks, of someone who used to be a friend.

He isn't going to think "Well, Mezar looks like somebody has twisted his personality somehow and he now has all of his good side supressed."

No, he is going to think "THAT'S NOT MEZAR. IT IS SOME CRAZY SOULLESS DEMON!"

Androl and Pevera are people who no nothing of the 13-13, and who used to be friends with these people. They do not have the luxury of theorizing about what said people would look like in what situation.

I think this is being over-thought. It is a perfectly normal reaction to have, considering the circumstances. Rand often thinks that Lan has a face like a rock. He doesn't really have a face with similar properties to stone, it is just he is a hard man.

But, I do agree, it is not CERTAIN, in the sense that nobody has said "This is so." However, it is a bit like saying Moridin is not Ishamael reborn.

Moggy and Lanfear's mindtraps haven't been crushed.

Barid Bel Medar · May 27, 2012

You may want to read the posts before replying.

On 5/27/2012 at 10:55 AM, FarShainMael said:

Not a broken one, perhaps. How much do we know about those things?

Is what is reply was for.

I mean, really...

I am all for theorizing, but at least put a bit of thought into and look at the facts first.

(Not at you FSM!)

fikkie77 · May 27, 2012

On 5/27/2012 at 11:07 AM, Barid Bel Medar said:

You may want to read the posts before replying.

You place their names to compare what happened to them with what happens at the Black Tower. These can't be compared, because even if Mazar and Tarna are puppets because of crushed mindtraps, it couldn't be compared to Moggy and Cyndane.

The crushed mindtraps do make an interesting theory; it's something that's mentioned, but not been shown. But still I think they were 13x13'd

Barid Bel Medar · May 27, 2012

On 5/27/2012 at 10:55 AM, FarShainMael said:

Not a broken one, perhaps. How much do we know about those things?

But equally, I don't feel that the description of Mezar fits a crazy evil person. I can't help but feel that a Turned person would still have a personality, just a severely warped one.

Quote
Moggy and Cyndane are not changed by the Mindtrap. They are still themselves. They don't become mindless sacks of evil.

Edit: will link to Mindtrapp: http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Mindtrap http://encyclopaedia...s/mindtrap.html

Mezar's description is perfectly in line with what a warped personality would be.

And, as mentioned. Mindless puppet does not fit Mezar and Tarna. They have memories and react to stimuli.

Then, FSM suggested a normal mindtrap situation, and said that Mezar's description does not fit 13-13

SO, I replied, Moggy and Cyndane do not become mindless sacks of evil,

and that Mezar/Tarna descriptions, I believe, fit perfectly.

fikkie77 · May 27, 2012

I understand, which makes my post more of an explaining to what you wanted to say.

Summary:

Mindtrap: traps your soul into the hand of the holder. You remain your own self, but will have to jump when they say 'jump'

Crushed mindtrap: turns you in a puppet in the hand of the holder. You don't have any control left and will never get that back.

13x13: your soul is warped into a version where all your dark treats are stronger and serving the DO is the only logical thing to do.

Barid Bel Medar · May 27, 2012

Well, I suppose so...

You are correct about the descriptions of the 3.

I was explaining how the first two =/= Mezar and Tarna. And how it does fit 13-13

My bad for seeming snappy. It was just that it was a miscommunication.

Anyway, I think we can be certain of the 13-13. (unless there is another theory out there with merit?)

fikkie77 · May 27, 2012

There's one more reason why it's a 13x13 rather than a crushed mindtrap. The 13x13 has been foretold so much longer in the series: it just had to happen sometimes. The crushed mindtrap as well, but not for so long. I think that will happen as well: on either Cyndane of Moghedien, depending whether Cyndane can escape.

FarShainMael · May 27, 2012

On 5/27/2012 at 11:18 AM, fikkie77 said:

I understand, which makes my post more of an explaining to what you wanted to say.

Summary:

Mindtrap: traps your soul into the hand of the holder. You remain your own self, but will have to jump when they say 'jump'

Crushed mindtrap: turns you in a puppet in the hand of the holder. You don't have any control left and will never get that back.

13x13: your soul is warped into a version where all your dark treats are stronger and serving the DO is the only logical thing to do.

When I asked how much we know about mindtraps, I wanted to indicate that we don't, in fact, know a lot about them. fikkie summarises what we do know. I suggest that they may be more flexible that we have so far been told. The EncWoT ref says they give 'complete control' of the trapped person; exactly how complete is this control? Can it be taken to the edge of mindlessness but still allow the mind to survive, trapped and helpless?

Aiyen kin Leary · May 27, 2012

On 5/27/2012 at 12:26 PM, FarShainMael said:

On 5/27/2012 at 11:18 AM, fikkie77 said:

I understand, which makes my post more of an explaining to what you wanted to say.

Summary:

Mindtrap: traps your soul into the hand of the holder. You remain your own self, but will have to jump when they say 'jump'

Crushed mindtrap: turns you in a puppet in the hand of the holder. You don't have any control left and will never get that back.

13x13: your soul is warped into a version where all your dark treats are stronger and serving the DO is the only logical thing to do.

When I asked how much we know about mindtraps, I wanted to indicate that we don't, in fact, know a lot about them. fikkie summarises what we do know. I suggest that they may be more flexible that we have so far been told. The EncWoT ref says they give 'complete control' of the trapped person; exactly how complete is this control? Can it be taken to the edge of mindlessness but still allow the mind to survive, trapped and helpless?

That's what a crushed mindtrap is said to do. Moghedian's thoughts on the matter: "The part of her that was her would be separated; she would still see with her eyes, feel what touched her and taste what crossed her tongue, but she would be helpless within an automaton utterly obedient to whoever held the cour'souvra (mindtrap)." The mind definitely survives, but it never gets control of the body back.

Barid Bel Medar · May 28, 2012

On 5/27/2012 at 8:35 PM, Aiyen kin Leary said:

On 5/27/2012 at 12:26 PM, FarShainMael said:

On 5/27/2012 at 11:18 AM, fikkie77 said:

I understand, which makes my post more of an explaining to what you wanted to say.

Summary:

Mindtrap: traps your soul into the hand of the holder. You remain your own self, but will have to jump when they say 'jump'

Crushed mindtrap: turns you in a puppet in the hand of the holder. You don't have any control left and will never get that back.

13x13: your soul is warped into a version where all your dark treats are stronger and serving the DO is the only logical thing to do.

When I asked how much we know about mindtraps, I wanted to indicate that we don't, in fact, know a lot about them. fikkie summarises what we do know. I suggest that they may be more flexible that we have so far been told. The EncWoT ref says they give 'complete control' of the trapped person; exactly how complete is this control? Can it be taken to the edge of mindlessness but still allow the mind to survive, trapped and helpless?

That's what a crushed mindtrap is said to do. Moghedian's thoughts on the matter: "The part of her that was her would be separated; she would still see with her eyes, feel what touched her and taste what crossed her tongue, but she would be helpless within an automaton utterly obedient to whoever held the cour'souvra (mindtrap)." The mind definitely survives, but it never gets control of the body back.

Well now, Wiki and EncWoT have failed me. No mention of this.

This makes matters different, slightly.

I still believe the end result is the same, that memories and mannerisms would not be able to be re-produced by the controller of the mindtrap, but it opens up the possibility, I suppose. I cannot see how the controller could make the body imitate the person, and their memories, but their mind still remains inside, so I guess they could pillage it for information.

On another note, mindtrap sounds really crap. It would be the worst. I mean, destroying someone's mind if they disobeyed would be bad to begin with, but severing their control of their body, yet trapping the soul inside, is a whole lot worse. Wouldn't wish that even on one of the Forsaken.

FarShainMael · May 28, 2012

On 5/27/2012 at 8:35 PM, Aiyen kin Leary said:

On 5/27/2012 at 12:26 PM, FarShainMael said:

On 5/27/2012 at 11:18 AM, fikkie77 said:

I understand, which makes my post more of an explaining to what you wanted to say.

Summary:

Mindtrap: traps your soul into the hand of the holder. You remain your own self, but will have to jump when they say 'jump'

Crushed mindtrap: turns you in a puppet in the hand of the holder. You don't have any control left and will never get that back.

13x13: your soul is warped into a version where all your dark treats are stronger and serving the DO is the only logical thing to do.

When I asked how much we know about mindtraps, I wanted to indicate that we don't, in fact, know a lot about them. fikkie summarises what we do know. I suggest that they may be more flexible that we have so far been told. The EncWoT ref says they give 'complete control' of the trapped person; exactly how complete is this control? Can it be taken to the edge of mindlessness but still allow the mind to survive, trapped and helpless?

That's what a crushed mindtrap is said to do. Moghedian's thoughts on the matter: "The part of her that was her would be separated; she would still see with her eyes, feel what touched her and taste what crossed her tongue, but she would be helpless within an automaton utterly obedient to whoever held the cour'souvra (mindtrap)." The mind definitely survives, but it never gets control of the body back.

And if the mindtrap is not actually crushed, the mind could (I think) eventually regain control - difficult and unlikely though that may be. That was my point - how far can the control be exerted without actually reaching this point of no return.

mdoody83 · May 29, 2012

On 4/21/2012 at 1:12 PM, Barid Bel Medar said:

On 4/21/2012 at 12:58 PM, Gaidar said:

Sorry, messed up time. I thought he had sent naeff earlier.(why didn.t he? Nvm...)

Next speculation....would Rand recognize SG stone?

Funny that, I thought that Kash might have been Naeff for the same reason. But I checked it yesterday so that's how I know haha.

Hmmm, I cannot say. It would depend on what kind of powers the SG stone possesses. I am assuming it has some power, or else Taim would not have built the Tower with it. The DO, I doubt, would let anyone take his mountain rocks for no reason.

Lews Therin has at least been to Shayol Ghul at the sealing, but for how long, and if he was too otherwise occupied to notice are different questions.

Even still, I would say he would feel the DO's corruption, if not knowing exactly that it is stones from Shayol Ghul.

For the life of me I cannot find an answer that satisfies me, why Shayol Ghul stones? Why the Black Tower? Why make a palace out of something so valuable? How did he build it if the stones have some power?

Gah, so much to think about. At first I thought it was strange that anything about Taim would be revealed, let alone something so stunning as this. Now I think it was a good idea, reveals enough to get people excited, but not enough to actually be of any real use in figuring out what is going on.

would the DO care if taim took the the mountain though, he's not really under the mountain its just where the hole to his prison is closer because he's actually outside the pattern

Leyrann · May 31, 2012

On 4/21/2012 at 12:58 PM, Gaidar said:

Sorry, messed up time. I thought he had sent naeff earlier.(why didn.t he? Nvm...)

Next speculation....would Rand recognize SG stone?

If it looks different from other stone, yes. Otherwise, no.

On 4/21/2012 at 1:12 PM, Barid Bel Medar said:

On 4/21/2012 at 12:58 PM, Gaidar said:

Sorry, messed up time. I thought he had sent naeff earlier.(why didn.t he? Nvm...)

Next speculation....would Rand recognize SG stone?

Funny that, I thought that Kash might have been Naeff for the same reason. But I checked it yesterday so that's how I know haha.

Hmmm, I cannot say. It would depend on what kind of powers the SG stone possesses. I am assuming it has some power, or else Taim would not have built the Tower with it. The DO, I doubt, would let anyone take his mountain rocks for no reason.

Lews Therin has at least been to Shayol Ghul at the sealing, but for how long, and if he was too otherwise occupied to notice are different questions.

Even still, I would say he would feel the DO's corruption, if not knowing exactly that it is stones from Shayol Ghul.

For the life of me I cannot find an answer that satisfies me, why Shayol Ghul stones? Why the Black Tower? Why make a palace out of something so valuable? How did he build it if the stones have some power?

Gah, so much to think about. At first I thought it was strange that anything about Taim would be revealed, let alone something so stunning as this. Now I think it was a good idea, reveals enough to get people excited, but not enough to actually be of any real use in figuring out what is going on.

Don't worry. We'll find out what it means. We are hardcore Wheel of Time fans.

On 4/21/2012 at 3:04 PM, GYLD said:

Well, this calls for wild speculation.

RJ has said that the Bore is technically everywhere at once, but that it can only be perceived best at Shayol Ghul. Perhaps the idea was to bring the stones to the Black Tower in an attempt to effectively create a second Pit of Doom? We've seen with admittedly a different force that it's possible to spread corruption with an inanimate object, as is the case with the Shadar Logath dagger. So, assuming these stones are tainted, their purpose could be to thin the very pattern around them.

Or, maybe Taim just borrowed all the Forgers he could find, without knowing about their little quirk of turning to stone away from Shayol Ghul. Not wanting to be wasteful, Taim decided to just turn them into a palace. Yup, the Black Tower is people.

Edit: Aww, I was beaten to the Black Tower is people.

Edit 2: Yikes, that was an eyesore. I quoted myself there.

I like the idea about creating a second Bore... Don't know if it's possible, however.

Dagon Thyne · June 13, 2012

On 4/21/2012 at 9:39 AM, FarShainMael said:

OK, how under the Light did he get hold of those??

ETA: I'm also of the opinion that the Bloodrings are SG rock.

Well most people think he's either one of the oringal forsaken or a new one. He could have been called to a meeting with the DO and given the stone to build with.

Duskfire · June 14, 2012

Taim may not have been turned per say, but there is more to him then just an original darkfriend. For one, he has shown sympathy toward Rand through the books, yet its not as if Demandred and whatnot ever feel sorry for the Dragon Reborn. That, and since its unlikely a Forsaken would change him, how did he get so knowledgeable and so good at what he does?

Terez · June 14, 2012

Just because I've seen it used wrongly twice on this board in as many days...it's per se. Not 'per say' or 'per sey' or anything else.

OptimusPrime · June 14, 2012

On 6/14/2012 at 7:42 PM, Terez said:

Just because I've seen it used wrongly twice on this board in as many days...it's per se. Not 'per say' or 'per sey' or anything else.

Aaahaha so its not just me then! I feel slightly more sane now

damandred · June 14, 2012

i'm confused what's Percy got to do with this thread

yoniy0 · June 14, 2012

Well, not much, per say

Terez · June 14, 2012

You guys are hopeless. That is all.

Finnssss22 · June 14, 2012

Hey, if spell check doesn't go off, you move on. Am I right or what? ;)

Bad enough that I have to ignore it for so many words cause of you silly Yanks not knowing the right way to spell Armour, Defence, Offence, Realise ect ect.

yoniy0 · June 14, 2012

Or prolly? (sorry, had to do it)

You know, for some reason my speller has trouble with Latin. Like, it doesn't acknowledge 'versa' (as in, vice versa). Or 'se', actually. Stupid Firefox, how come you work on my office station, but not at home?

Terez · June 14, 2012

I add words to my dictionary all the time. My Firefox one knows a good bit of German, Polish, French, Latin, and Old Tongue by now.

Finnssss22 · June 14, 2012

On 6/14/2012 at 9:56 PM, yoniy0 said:

Or prolly? (sorry, had to do it)

Hey now, I never said "prolly" was right, I just said it was lazy slang heh

Like the difference between asking you a question and axing you a question :wink:

Suttree · June 14, 2012

On 6/14/2012 at 10:30 PM, Finnssss said:

On 6/14/2012 at 9:56 PM, yoniy0 said:

Or prolly? (sorry, had to do it)

Hey now, I never said "prolly" was right, I just said it was lazy slang heh

Like the difference between asking you a question and axing you a question

Summat like that...

Update on Taim, intense revelation!!!

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