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Update on Taim, intense revelation!!!

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So I am on Dragonmount as usual, having a browse through all the wacky and wonderful theories that we have been blessed with and then I get hit in the face with something I thought was pretty intense.


I will let you see for yourselves.


Luckers posted this earlier today.



Amadine just reported that the answer to Terez's question of 'Was Taim's palace made from Shayol Ghul stone' was 'yes'.


I thought, wow, that sounds like something Team Jordan would likely keep pretty open, but it is true.


Nope. Here is the message I sent Ama: Tell Brandon I said hi. Oh, and ask if Taim's palace is made of Shayol Ghul rock. Tell him Terez was very cranky with me that I didn't ask. LOL.James.


Ama's reply: The answer is yes!!!



I wonder if this is not how Taim is getting so many converts--a taint in the stone. I mean if thakan'dar wrought steel can pick up a taint....


So, what does this mean?


I think it was a very good answer. We get something out of it, yet more questions arise.


What on earth is going on?


Why would Taim have stones from SG?


What is so special about them?


Also gives new meaning to the phrase: "his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul."


So the BT has SG stones, Taim is turning 13x13 or at least "converting" people in some way, possible like Luckers suggests, something to do with a tainting like Myrddraal blades.


Could Egwene's accepted test vision be more accurate than we think?

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OK, how under the Light did he get hold of those??


Well I am assuming that it was in no way "under the light".


I can't imagine him just turning up and waving at the DO saying, "hey, just taking some of your mountain, cya."


As I said, a very good answer, more questions than when we knew nothing of this.

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Of course, it's not outside the realms of possibility that Taim doesn't know this..


Well as far as I know SG stone has no real discerning properties that make it obvious. You could be right, and it would explain the difference we see in Taim LoC (an arrogant SoB, but he didn't seem THAT bad) and KoD Taim (burning eyes and crazy LoC talk.) Kinda like a Mashadar effect.


I don't think this is true. But possible.


I think it is more likely the DO/Moridin allowed the "import" for a reason. Perhaps the 13x13 trick only works on "tainted" (well, it would be sacrosanct, to them) grounds.


The more we learn about Taim the connection to Moridin grows stronger. I cannot see anyone else being able to gain permission for such a thing. He is definitely Moridin's puppet, or Moridin himself.



Traveling could bring them in. and it makes me wander about BT resolution scenes... Is the Rand we see at end of ToM already risen from the dead?


Well due to the timeline, it can't be. He sends Naeff to the Black Tower for recon. when he meets the Borderlanders at FM. Which is a day before FoM meeting. So I don't think so, but he has every intention of going to the Black Tower himself, add to that the Caemlyn situation, it seems very likely a Black Tower showdown is in order.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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Sorry, messed up time. I thought he had sent naeff earlier.(why didn.t he? Nvm...)

Next speculation....would Rand recognize SG stone?


Funny that, I thought that Kash might have been Naeff for the same reason. But I checked it yesterday so that's how I know haha.


Hmmm, I cannot say. It would depend on what kind of powers the SG stone possesses. I am assuming it has some power, or else Taim would not have built the Tower with it. The DO, I doubt, would let anyone take his mountain rocks for no reason.


Lews Therin has at least been to Shayol Ghul at the sealing, but for how long, and if he was too otherwise occupied to notice are different questions.


Even still, I would say he would feel the DO's corruption, if not knowing exactly that it is stones from Shayol Ghul.


For the life of me I cannot find an answer that satisfies me, why Shayol Ghul stones? Why the Black Tower? Why make a palace out of something so valuable? How did he build it if the stones have some power?


Gah, so much to think about. At first I thought it was strange that anything about Taim would be revealed, let alone something so stunning as this. Now I think it was a good idea, reveals enough to get people excited, but not enough to actually be of any real use in figuring out what is going on.

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Random thoughts.


Let's remind ourselves of the relevant prophecy:


"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."


Also, Egwene's dream of Logain:


Logain, laughing, steps over something onto a black stone. It looks like Rand's body, but when she touches his face it breaks like a paper puppet.


Rand will need to enter the Pit of Doom; he won't simply be killed in the BT, on or near that black stone, which is probably Taim's podium.


Let's also remind ourselves of what we know of SG:


In what was now called the Age of Legends, this had been an idyllic island in a cool sea, a favourite of those who enjoyed the rustic.


Now it's a cold volcanic wasteland. There are streams there, but their touch is apparently lethal.


The rock of the mountain itself is dynamic. Demandred follows a Myrddraal into an entrance tunnel with spikes hanging from its roof:


Abruptly, he noticed something. Every time he had made this journey, those spikes had all but brushed the top of his head. Now they cleared the Myrddraal's by two hands or more. That surprised him. Not that the height of the tunnel changed - the strange was ordinary here - but the extra space the Halfman was given.


The rock seems to be perfused with the DO's influence somehow.


Then there are the creatures that live there, forgers of blades which are apparently quenched in the bodies of human slaves or prisoners. These beings would not survive being carried any distance away; they turn to stone, or dust.


It does look as though SG rock has some interesting qualities. Was it made by the action of the DO's touch on the land of that original 'idyllic island'? Those forgers are not truly alive; perhaps they are animated by that same touch. Perhaps, also, that's what the BT is built from - dead forgers. But even when they are de-animated (I won't say 'killed'), perhaps some kind of link to SG is retained.

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Well, this calls for wild speculation.


RJ has said that the Bore is technically everywhere at once, but that it can only be perceived best at Shayol Ghul. Perhaps the idea was to bring the stones to the Black Tower in an attempt to effectively create a second Pit of Doom? We've seen with admittedly a different force that it's possible to spread corruption with an inanimate object, as is the case with the Shadar Logath dagger. So, assuming these stones are tainted, their purpose could be to thin the very pattern around them.


Or, maybe Taim just borrowed all the Forgers he could find, without knowing about their little quirk of turning to stone away from Shayol Ghul. Not wanting to be wasteful, Taim decided to just turn them into a palace. Yup, the Black Tower is people.


Edit: Aww, I was beaten to the Black Tower is people.


Edit 2: Yikes, that was an eyesore. I quoted myself there.

Edited by GYLD
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I think Terez is currently attending JordanCon, but Brandon, Luckers and she had a (very) short Twitter conversation regarding the motivation for the question. Basically, Brandon isn't sure why she asked that (which makes it all the more remarkable that he decided to answer). I think we should turn our attention to the same question (assuming she won't be available for a couple of days).

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Possible importance

The stones of SG carry a special power - maybe they allow the GLoD to recreate some of the special effects, or Fades can move wherever the stones are, at will. Maybe the GLoD can animate them, at will?

Possible unimportance

Brandon answered the question because it's unimportant - the Stones will not ever feature in the plotline so he didn't care and was happily setting up a red herring for misdirected speculation.

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It would be interesting if they played a role in AMoL, but I think that the rocks are a red herring, the excuse for using them being to get the "Black" color of the Black Tower. And of course to let us know, if we didn't already, about Taim's alliegences.

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For those who were wondering, I have had this theory for a while, that the first rock Taim used as a symbol of his office was Shayol Ghul rock, mostly because of the fact that the Forsaken really get into the whole symbolism thing, and we already know that Moridin in particular has a thing for the 'red on black' symbolism from the blood on the rocks prophecies. Now, I checked, and most of the palace is actually built from white marble, but Taim's throne room, so to speak, has black columns, the walls of the Black Tower are black rock, and the same podium Taim has used since the beginning is polished black stone, the same stone as the walls, and it's still his podium at the palace. I'm guessing that Brandon knows that the podium and the walls are made from Shayol Ghul rock, and he assumed I knew what I was talking about with the palace (obviously I didn't). So you might say I asked the wrong question. ;) Some have argued that Brandon was confused since Taim=Moridin and that he was actually thinking of Moridin's fortress. I argued that it's a fortress, not a palace, but it turns out that Graendal described it as a palace in Towers of Midnight. Mazridin folks count that as a point in their favor, because the fortress definitely appears to be made out of the same rock.


The prophecies say that Rand's blood will free men from the Shadow in the Pit of Doom, so we know that those prophecies won't be fulfilled by Rand dying at the Black Tower or whatever. Now, I've theorized before that his blood will actually be shed twice, just to fit with all the twice-ing in the prophecies—twice and twice he shall be marked, twice to live, twice to die, twice dawns the day, two must be as one, 2+2=1, splitting all in twain, blade shall bind him by twain, cutting the wetlands in two with a sword, etc. Anyway, his blood being shed twice might explain the apparent contradiction between Light and Dark prophecies, since one says his blood will bring the darkness so beautiful, and the other says his blood will bring salvation and the Light, and we know both are true. It's not that one blood-shedding necessarily can't bring both...just that it's not outside the realm of possibility that he will shed his blood on Shayol Ghul rock twice, once in the Pit of Doom, once at the Black Tower.


That being said, the main reason I find it so exciting is the aforementioned symbolism, partly because it ties somewhat into Egwene's dream of Logain:


Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand’s body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.


The black stone is probably this:


He had come expecting to gather them round him, and then seeing their numbers, maybe to speak from the back of the rickety cart that now seemed to have vanished. Taim had a platform for making addresses, though, a plain block of black stone dressed and polished so finely that it shone like a mirror in the sunlight, with two steps cut into the back. It stood in an open area beyond the farmhouse, the ground beaten bare and flat and hard around it. The women and children gathered to one side to watch and listen.


And even after Taim builds the palace, the stone remains a symbol of his office:


“The Red,” he said flatly. He had not remained startled very long. “Well. then. Enkazin, al’Seen, you keep watch while I see what the M’Hael has to say to this.”


He turned his back, and the vertical silvery slash of a gateway appeared in front of him, widening into an opening no larger than a door. Was that as large as he could make? There had been some discussion about whether to bond men who were as strong as possible or those who were weak. The weak might be more easily controlled, while the strong might-would definitely-be more useful. They had reached no consensus; each sister would have to decide for herself. He darted through the gateway and closed it before she had a chance to see more than a white stone platform with steps leading up one side and a squared-off black stone that might have been one of the building blocks for the wall, polished till it shone in the sun, sitting atop it.


And Moridin's fortress:


Mesaana rose as soon as Moridin entered, and Graendal reluctantly did likewise. He wasn't her pet, not yet. He was Nae'blis, and he had begun to demand more and more shows of obedience from them in recent days. The Great Lord gave him the authority. All three of the other Chosen reluctantly bowed their heads to him; only to him among all men would they show deference. He noted their obedience with stern eyes as he stalked to the front of the room, where the wall of charcoal black stones was set with a mantel. What had possessed someone to build a fortress out of black rock in the Blight's heat?


The Towers of Midnight are made from black marble, which can probably be found in a volcano pretty easily:


At the base of the foothills, the wind turned eastward, passing an open plain kept free of trees and scrub by the soldier's axe. The killing field surrounded thirteen fortresses, tall and cut entirely from unpolished black marble, their blocks left rough-hewn to give them a primal feeling of unformed strength. These were towers meant for war. By tradition they were unoccupied. How long that would last—how long tradition itself would be remembered in a continent in chaos—remained to be seen.


Brandon really drew attention to the strangeness of the black rock there. I could post more quotes but I think these are good for now. Tired, after long day of con and driving. Did two panels today and attended two others.

Edited by Terez
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Thanks for the explanation Terez, hope you had a good time!


Interesting stuff I don't disagree with anything really.


One point I would like to emphasis is Egwene's dream. I have always believed that this dream signifies Logain defeating Taim. And that the "Rand" in this is actually Taim, (symbolism as Taim as a False Dragon and the BA's apparent plan (the wondergirls interrogation) to make Taim do things as the Dragon Reborn)


But this revelation puts another twist in it, where it does seem to support Rand dying (or shedding blood) twice with the prophecies, one being at the Black Tower. Logain laughing, I suspect, if he is not a DF, would be because he knows Rand is alive somehow and the whole thing is a ruse. If he is a DF, then probably thinks that Rand is dead and he will receive glory beyond any man by the DO.


And yeah, I have to admit, the more we learn of Taim, the more it points to Taim = Moridin.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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A question. If we take Rand for the Broken Wolf, does 'falling and being consumed' fit with his passing away, then being brought back in one way or another? Surly 'falling' does just fine, but somehow I'm not comfortable with his 'being consumed' yet still being available for resurrection.

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About the Bloodrings: We already know that these are activated by blood, and are made of a 'pure black stone' - which I'd really love to be SG rock. But even if it isn't, it started me thinking that the effect of Rand's blood actually in contact with SG rock might have... 'interesting' consequences. Possibly even, given the Light in his brain, consequences unfavourable to the DO.

Edited by FarShainMael
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Maybe the tower is where Rand will die then? Of course, if Moiraine balefires him like I hope (based on Terez' theory), I don't think there would be much blood...


the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul


Edit: Eh, after reading the rest of the prophecy (and FarShainMael's post above), that theory doesn't really hold up to the "Pit of Doom" part of the prophecy... ah well, that'll teach me to post before reading the rest of the thread.

Edited by TankSpill
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Hmmm...the Rand disintegrating part reminded me of TAR and Min's vision of Carlinya's raven. Maybe, at the BT in TAR someone (Egwene or Perrin) will think them (Moridin and Rand) separate...I also have this idea of the sun rising for the first screen-active time in TAR and then in the 'real world' to fulfill that part of the prophecy.

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Great stone spires rose around her in a heat that sucked the moisture out of her breath. The sun seemed to bake right through her dress, and the breeze blowing in her face seemed to come from a stove. Stunted trees dotted a landscape almost bare of other growth, except for a few patches of tough grass and some prickly plants she did not recognize. She recognized the lion, however, even if she had never seen one in the flesh. It lay in a crevice in the rocks not twenty paces away, black tufted tail switching idly, looking not at her but at something another hundred strides on. The large boar covered in coarse hair was rooting and snuffling at the base of a thorny bush, never noticing the Aiel woman creeping up on it with a spear ready to thrust.
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