breaking the seals

[azrael.1289]

The issue here stems from the fact that rand didnt bother to explain why he needed to break the seals and his actions regarding the aftermath.

 

After all if you were taught all your life that the seals placed by lews therin telamon 3000 years was the only thing blocking the DO from accessing the world you would be terrified if someone suggested smashing the seals without any explanation.

 

Unfortunately common human reactions are ignored but hey where's the fun in common sense these days?

Except it's not somebody telling it to you, it's the same person who created the original seal and the prophecies(whose importance Egwene must know) concerning him. And it's not like the seals are strong, it could crumble any day without anyone's help.

You could argue she thinks Rand is insane yada yada yada, doesn't change the fact it's not as simple or cut and dry as you have put. Common sense Please.

 

are you thick? did rand explain what to egwene on the primary reason behind shattering the seals or more importanlty on how he was going to seal the bore differently this time? All he did was turn to the white tower told her he was going to smash the seals, refused her offer of planning and walked off.

 

I think you ought to read that passage once again. You sound like my previous boss. Does things without any need for explanation

He told her the old seals need to be removed if a new one is to built(source: wot encyclopedia. Don't have the book on me).

That's besides the point I was trying to make. The point I was trying to make is that it warrants a debate and is not at all 'common sense' as you put it.

 

I mean come on. you can't tell anyone it's common sense to blindly oppose breaking of the seals when it's the person who created the original and the person who has to recreate it is telling you that it has to be done. It at least warrants a debate.

 

PS: I am thick.

[Datakim]

And yes, Eg does indeed know about the sunlight effect. In ToM56, she is at FoM, Gawyn has just met Morgase, the clouds break, Eg thinks 'He's here, then.'

 

What does Egwene actually know. I skimmed through and here is a crude listing of Rands new abilities and which Egwene knows or should realistically be expected to know:

 

Chapter 1:

Rand causes the clouds to part and sunlight to stream through. The farmer, Almen obviously sees this.

 

Rand causes the rotten apples on the ground to just disappear, he then causes the apple trees to flower anew and then sprout apples, all in a couple of minutes. The apple trees also all have far more apples than is normal for an apple tree.

 

Rand openly states to Almen that it happened because of him, and that his presence will hold the DO off and that any apples they take now will be protected from the DO. He tells Almen to gather the apples because they will be needed.

 

Rand walks away, and Almen watches it. Almen sees the halo of light around Rand. He then runs to the other farmers. The old pain in his hip is gone, so Rands presence actually rejunevated not just the trees, but Almen aswell. He also notices that the grass is greener after Rand passed by.

 

Now lets look at chapter 22. Gawyn goes to Bryne and notices a map of of the surrounding orchards. He idly notices that one particular farm is circled four times. It is obvious that this is Almens farm, which means that the White Tower knows what happened.

 

It is not confirmed if they interrogated Almen himself, but it seems to me that if they did not, they are utter fools. So I am going to assume that they did infact meet with Almen and ask about Rand. So they, including Egwene, presumably know all about the above effects.

 

Chapter 3:

Rand meets with Egwene. The sunlight effect would obviously have followed him to Tar Valon, and the Aes Sedai would have noticed that. Beyond that however, Rand does not demonstrate any light-powers. He does create an immensively powerfull ta'veren effect that totally prevents the sitters from speaking, but thats something he could have done even as dark!Rand.

 

Chapter 12:

Rand appears. Min sees the halo effect of light around him and Cadsuanes tea tastes perfect.

 

Rand then orders all the lords to form a line, he does this publicly. He then walks through the line while EVERYONE is watching, until he meets Weiramon. Weiramon is a darkfriend and cannot look at Rand and neither can Anaiyella. They clearly demonstrate that they see something bright in Rand, such as when Anaiyella shades her face. Rand then openly states they are darkfriends and that darkfriends cannot hide among his people anymore.

 

How much would Egwene learn? Obviously not about the halo Min saw, or the tea. But the meeting between the high lords was a very public event. Again I am assuming that WT has informants that would have relayed them this information, since if not they would again be utterly incompetent. So Egwene knows that darkfriends cannot look at Rand directly because they see a light others do not.

 

Chapter 15:

Nynave discovers how to heal Taints effects. She delves Rand and discovers a strange shield of light around his mind, a shield she knows is not present in others since she heals Naeff and the others too. We can presume, that since Rand asked her to try and convince Egwene to support him, that Nynaeve has informed Egwene of what she saw.

 

So Egwene is aware, that in Rands mind there is a "white radiance" that seems like "light given form and life" that protects him from the taint. And that this is something unique to Rand alone.

 

In this chapter, we also get a POV from Egwene, where the clouds have returned and covered the sun in Tar Valon again. The food also tastes bad again, when after Rands visit there was a brief time it had not. Egwene acknowledges here that these effects (sun and food) were because of Rands visit, and quotes the prophecy about Land being one with the Dragon.

 

Chapter 25:

This may or may not be Rand demonstrating an unknown power. The food at Bandar Eban is unspoiled. Rand states that Iralin merely opened only all the sacks that had spoiled. That could be an effect of dark!Rands ta'veren effect, and probably is.

However, it is explicitly mentioned that the food in the sacks looks better than it should. That the barley looks as if it had just been harvested, and the potatoes do not show the signs of being winter leftovers. That might suggest that Rand "enhanced" the unspoiled food by his presence, but thats not totally clear.

 

This is something Egwene would have no way of knowing. I mean she would likely learn that Rand was able to restore order to the city in a day from her informants, but nothing special about Rands powers.

 

Chapter 32:

When Rand arrives, Ituralde feels less tired. This might not mean anything, but it might be a clue similar to Almens hip being rejunevated by Rands presence.

 

Rand then attacks the Trolloc army and drives them off by channeling with extreme power and skill. Ituralde thinks that he sees Rand glowing, and that the glow seems brighter than the fires and such implying its not a reflection.

 

The two darkfriends, Torkumen and his wife go mad during this channeling. This seems an effect similar to what happened to Weiramon, but far stronger. Torkumen actually plucks out his own eyes, while his wife commits suicide. They both speak of light, but they could not see the battle. Bashere seems to realise that its an effect similar to the Weiramon one.

 

Could Egwene know of this? She would certainly learn that the Trolloc army was repelled. The tower has informants in the borderlands, as was previously established in the book and this was a major battle. She would not learn that Ituralde was rejunevated, or that Ituralde saw a glow around Rand.

 

It is possible that she would learn what happened to the two darkfriends. There were several soldiers present when Torkumen "confessed" to being a darkfriend and spoke of the light driving him mad. This may have spread around, especially in light of the Weiramon thing.

 

Chapter 33:

The soup is good. Egwene learns that the ingredients came from Caemlyn, where one of Rands bondees is. Egwene knows of the bond, and we as readers know that part of Rands light-effect is transferred via the bonds. Egwene would presumably realise this too.

 

Elayne does know anyway. She mentions that the clouds over Caemlyn broke a week ago, the same time she would have felt the change in Rand. She tells Gawyn about how she can feel that its Rand that drives back the clouds and makes the roses bloom. We can presume she would have told Egwene about this.

 

Chapter 51:

Cadsuanes tea tastes good around Rand. Cadsuane confirms that food tastes good around Rand regularly now. We can presume that she would not be the only one to notice this effect. Everyone in the cities Rand visits would realise it, so we can presume Egwene would learn of this somewhere.

 

Chapter 56:

When Rand appears, the clouds break and sun appears. Though it should be said that Elayne had also arrived, and she spreads the sun effect too thanks to her bond. And she did turn to look towards Perrins camp just when the clouds broke, which would have also revealed Rands arrival to Egwene. I think the fact that the clouds instantly disappeared at the exact same time Rand arrived, would suggest that Rand was responsible rather than Elayne however.

[FarShainMael]

An excellent summary. So the question to be asked is: why is Egwene ignoring all that?

[randsc]

An excellent summary. So the question to be asked is: why is Egwene ignoring all that?

 

Because you're right, and Egwene is under Halima's influence.

 

Or else Jordan and Sanderson never heard of Checkhov's gun.

[Suttree]

An excellent summary. So the question to be asked is: why is Egwene ignoring all that?

 

It is an excellent question if you ask why EVERYONE in text that is close to Rand ignores it. That was my original point. Shouldn't really be surprised but per usual she is being held to a different standard. Once again Nyn who has spent the most time with him and seen these things first hand doesn't take it into account and concedes Egwene "may be right".

[fionwe1987]

Thats an utterly horrible example. Rand is not asking them to die with certainty. He is saying that the seals need to be broken in order to win. The question is whether or not he is right.

You did read what I wrote right? Where did I say anyone was going to die?

My point is that its odd that no one considers the fact that Rand now demonstrates totally unknown and never before seen powers of light as a possible clue that maybe Rand now knows things others do not.

I'm still not seeing a link between weird powers and better judgement. Mordeth shows weird powers. Should they take his word on how to fight to DO as well? After all, not even Rand can elongate his body and then disappear. Nor can he fuse with a Darkfriend. Egwene knows both these things happened, and there's no explanation for these powers. Should she be hunting out Fain to ask for advice?

I am not saying that Egwene should take that as proof that Rand is right or obey him, but it feels odd to me that she never even wonders about that. She lives in a world where she KNOWS there exists prophecies and foretellings and a creator god, and she knows Rand has gained new super-powers, and she does not even think once that maybe Rand was told by the pattern/Creator what to do or is being guided by the light or something.

That's your problem, right there. You're calling them super powers. They're not. Its a scientific reality in their world that the Dragon is one with the Land. This isn't mysterious hocus pocus. The prophesies don't have any religious significance. They're facts of reality. The exact mechanism of what Rand does now might be unknown to his channeler friends, but they also know that there is in fact a mechanism by which he does what he does. It may be under his control, it may not. But it speaks nothing to his judgment.

Again, not saying she should have accepted that as sufficient proof to obey Rand and abandon her plans, but why is it that she (or someone else for that matter) does not even consider it. Especially since she is a dreamer and has foretelling powers of her own.

That's exactly it. She has weird powers of her own that many others wouldn't understand. That doesn't mean she expects them to never question her. The same is the case with Nynaeve. She Delved Rand, and found this liquid white substance protecting his brain. Then she thought this:

 

Nynaeve nodded, then—feeling foolish—gave him a hug before hurrying off to seek out Narishma and Flinn. A hug. For the Dragon Reborn. She was turning as silly as Elayne. She shook her head, thinking that perhaps some time in the White Tower would help her regain her levelheadedness.

 

No sense of reverance. No, "Wow! Rand is in holy communion with the Creator! Let me bow down to him!". Nynaeve is very aware of all the weird stuff around Rand. She's curious about some of it, like the liquid light, but she isn't taking that to mean Rand is Creatorspawn who must be listened to:

 

Nynaeve found herself nodding, then was annoyed at herself. She was taking advice from Rand al'Thor?

There was something different about Rand now. Quiet intensity and careful words. He was a man you could take advice from without feeling he was speaking down to you. Like his father, actually. Not that she'd ever admit that to either one of them.

 

She will take advice from Rand. Because of the way he speaks, because of his demeanor, not because he is the Light made Flesh!

First, thats actually something that bugged me. Ta'veren has been said to be a mechanism of the pattern to correct itself and fix any damage right? And the Creator made the pattern. The Dark One wants to destroy the pattern, and is doing his very best to damage it. Would that therefore not mean, that ta'veren is by very definition a force that utterly opposes the Dark One. So if a ta'veren effect wants you to do something, forcibly disobeying it would actually be serving the DO in a way, by weakening the pattern. So when Egwene thinks that ta'veren made Nynaeve trust Rand, why does she think thats bad? Should that not be further proof that doing what Rand wants will strenghten the pattern->weaken the DO. Remember that Rand does not control ta'veren, so he could not "make" Nynaeve trust him.

Okay... lets extend this logic to its fullest conclusion then. Hawkwing, a powerful ta'veren, wanted to destroy the Tower. The Tower wants the Light to win. Should the Aes Sedai agree and allow themselves to be disbanded/killed?

Rand is ta'veren, and he's descending into a dark place, mentally. He's making himself hard, to face the DO. Should Cadsuane and Nynaeve simply bend to that and not try to interfere?

Perrin is ta'veren. Shouldn't Elayne therefore not object to his taking over the Two Rivers? Is she a Darkfriend for daring to oppose the Pattern's will?

 

Of course, none of these are true. As Moiraine said, the Pattern isn't good or bad. It has nothing to do with morality, or Good and Evil. It is non-sentient and doesn't do anything for the sake of Good . And nor does ta'veren work the way you imagine. Opposition to a ta'veren can be as important as support in fixing the course of the Pattern. Tuon resisting Rand in tGS was beneficial to the Pattern. Merana yelling at Rand was not just beneficial, it actually was definitely a result of his ta'veren.

 

What's wrong with Egwene's thinking here is not that she thinks Nynaeve is being influenced by Rand. Its that she hasn't realized that she herself is caught in a powerful ta'veren swirl. The Pattern needed a reasonable Amyrlin Seat, who had no qualms opposing Rand if she felt he was being stupid, to greet Rand when he walked into Tar Valon. It even sent a Foretelling of this event (ironically, to Elaida). It also sent Dreams that show Egwene confronting Rand with a bunch of women, including a Seanchan woman. The almost too neat set of events that led to Egwene becoming a powerful Amyrlin Seat? Rand's ta'veren. The immense coincidence of Egwene having her Dream about the Seals the exact moment Rand enters the White Tower? Rand's ta'veren. Egwene being able to speak to Rand in the Hall when other's could not? Rand's ta'veren. Egwene getting so many rulers to see things her way, and getting an opportunity to wrest control of the whole thing from the Hall? Rand's ta'veren.

 

If the Pattern needed an Amyrlin who will blindly oppose Rand, who could be taken care of by his immense powers in Merillor, Elaida would have found it a lot easier to remain in power. Of course, other considerations also make Egwene a better candidate, but you catch my drift, right?

That being said however, even we readers don't know for certain if Rands new powers are because of ta'veren. Egwene certainly would not. There has never been a ta'veren in the history of the world, that darkfriends could not look at for example. So its not just a question of ta'veren, Rands new powers seem exactly that, new and never before seen.

But not unexpected. There are prophesies, including some Egwene herself quoted, that indicate these things are to be expected.

Also remember that the people of the world know that the Creator exists, but they don't have RJ's word of his non-interference.

Actually, they do.

 

"The Pattern presents a crisis, and at the same time a way to surmount it. If I did not know it was impossible, I could almost believe the Creator is taking a hand. There is a way." She smiled as if at a private joke, and turned to Loial.

 

Moiraine knows the Creator taking a hand is impossible. All Aes Sedai do, which means Egwene does as well.

 

So how does Egwene know for example that the Creator did not directly save Rand or tell him what to do.

Because he doesn't do that. And also because Rand made no such claim, which he frankly would have if the Creator was speaking to him.

Especially if she learns of the light-shield in his head that keeps the taint at bay, which she should given that Nynaeve would want her to know Rand is sane.

But the light only kees the taint at bay, it doesn't destory it. They've seen liquid Power before, in the Eye of the World, remember? What Rand has in his head is mysterious and awesome, but not magic, to these people. It isn't just Egwene who doesn't think the light-shield means the Creator is active. Nynaeve doesn't either.

Rand has become something more than a strong ta'veren. He was a ta'veren all along, but only now does he bring sunlight wherever he goes and repel the DO's power. Should that not lead to questions and doubts?

No, it shouldn't. If it did, Egwene would be an immense idiot. She'd become a Masema clone, who beleived Rand was in fact the Creator, the Light made Flesh. It should tell you something that the only person who beleived this was a raving lunatic...

[b3arz3rg3r]

The issue here stems from the fact that rand didnt bother to explain why he needed to break the seals and his actions regarding the aftermath.

 

After all if you were taught all your life that the seals placed by lews therin telamon 3000 years was the only thing blocking the DO from accessing the world you would be terrified if someone suggested smashing the seals without any explanation.

 

Unfortunately common human reactions are ignored but hey where's the fun in common sense these days?

 

I do in fact agree. That is what I said it's just her fear and her ignorance talking. Egwene is naturally afraid of the Last Battle and even more so since she has no idea how the seals really work.

 

Rand set Egwene up on purpose. While we don't know what Rand did for most of TOM the few appearances he had showed how much in a hurry he was. The quickest way to get Egwene to gather the forces of the world was to set himself up as her opponent. Had he explained things Egwene and the Aes Sedai would have dithered and argued and most certainly not gotten all those armies together for him to adress.

 

 

Since when did Egwene have anything to do with Rand's death/ressurection? Alivia is the one who is going to help him die and Egwene isn't very likely to be one of the three women in a boat and the two women who'll be linked to him are pretty much confirmed to be Nyneave and Moiraine. So where's the connection to Egwene?

 

Actually, there is an indication that Egwene might be one of the three women on the boat. Recall Nicola's Foretelling:

 

The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives.

 

Back in ACoS12, Egwene prepares to take Lan to Ebou Dar quickly, by Skimming:

 

Weaving a gateway where he had been practising the sword, a good eight feet by eight, she stepped through onto what seemed to be a ferry, floating in darkness thar stretched forever. Skimmimng required a platform, and though it coulkd be anyting you chose to imagine, every sister seemed to have one she preferred. For her, that was this wooden barge, with stout railings.

 

Egwene Skims on a boat. And 'She who sees beyond' could mean Egwene the Dreamer, not Min.

 

(Incidentally, the 'dedicated spear' may not refer to Avi, since at the time of this foretelling she wasn't Far Dareis Mai any more - she was training to become a Wise One (TSR23). and I don't think Elayne has ever used a sword..)

 

Oh come on the imagery is blatantly obvious.

Lion Sword obviously refers to Elayne because she is the Andoran Queen. Andor's banner has a lion and the sword is most likely an image for Elayne being the queen during war times and a green Ajah to boot.

The dedicated spear is Aviendha. Dedicated because that's the meaning of Aiel and spear because she was a maiden. There is no other Aiel of any importance who has a link to Elayne and Min.

And finally Min is clearly "She who sees beyond" because she is the only one with her particular gift. There are quite a few who can Dream or Foretell, while Min is unique. Also Egwene isn't defined by her ability to Dream, but by her role as Amyrlin.

[Barid Bel Medar]

It also sent Dreams that show Egwene confronting Rand with a bunch of women, including a Seanchan woman.

 

This is not correct.

 

It is actually Rand confronting her and a bunch of women, including one that is Seanchan. Not Egwene confronting him.

 

TDR Chapter 48

Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan.

 

It makes it a bit different. Not to say that it does not talk of the same thing, but it is a different thing to what you are trying to say. It is Rand doing the confronting, not her.

[Elan Tedronai]

We have no evidence that she even knows about a number of the things you mentioned. In addition no one else in world thinks of the situation(or him) like that so not sure why you would hold her to a different standard. Heck even Nyn who has spent as much time with him as anyone and seen the transformation from Dark to Light first hand still isn't sure. Just because there is so new phenomena surrounding round does not mean you just chuck it in and follow him blindly. We have seen what happens already when no one is questioning him(and we sure as hell don't want to go back there). He needs to lay out a plan so the Light can get on the same page.

 

She has eyes, so she knows that sunlight follows him whereever he goes. And its been a month, so if her informants have not been able to send her messages to confirm that its a steady phenomena around Rand, then she is so utterly incompetent as to make the whole thing laughable. I mean seriously, the entire world is clouded by the DO, except whereever Rand goes and you think this is something the entire White Tower has not noticed?

 

We know that the White Tower is aware that Rand undoes the DO's influence, due to the scene with Gawyn and Bryne where the apple orchard where Rand made apples grow is marked. Furthermore, there is a scene with Egwene where the clouds return and the food starts spoiling again, and she acknowledges that their brief respite from the DO was because Rand briefly visited. She is also aware that those bonded to Rand cause similar effects, after they start bringing food from Caemlyn where Elayne is.

 

Bottom line, Egwene and the WT know that Rand is spreading light and countering the DO whereever he goes. They know that reality itself utterly supports him now. As for Nynaeve and Cadsuane, both now trust Rand. And they have far more reason to be doubtfull considering they lived with mad!Rand. However even they acknowledge that the new Rand is better, despite knowing far more negatives.

 

Thats basically what bugs me. You can call it "new phenomena", but this new phenomena happens to basically make Rand look like somekind of Light embodiment. You would think that even if Egwene and others don't support Rand in the end, they would atleast wonder why it is that the pattern now supports him so totally, and make it doubt themselves just a little bit. I mean the guy is surrounded by a halo of light and darkfriends cant even look at him. And there is not even a single scene in the book, where even a single character wonders if maybe that might be a sign of some sort. That does not sound very realistic to me to be honest.

 

 

Bloody hell.

 

Have you heard the phrase lead by example and explain without hesitation before?

 

If i was your boss and i told to hey listen dude i want you stop doing what you're doing now and do something completely off canter and get on it without question what would you feel like? Even as an employee you would feel miffed. And rand is certainly not egwene's boss.

 

A true general and leader sits down and explains what he plans to do how he does it and the reasons for it. No amount of light shining out of your arse is certainly going to change this simple fact.

[b3arz3rg3r]

We have no evidence that she even knows about a number of the things you mentioned. In addition no one else in world thinks of the situation(or him) like that so not sure why you would hold her to a different standard. Heck even Nyn who has spent as much time with him as anyone and seen the transformation from Dark to Light first hand still isn't sure. Just because there is so new phenomena surrounding round does not mean you just chuck it in and follow him blindly. We have seen what happens already when no one is questioning him(and we sure as hell don't want to go back there). He needs to lay out a plan so the Light can get on the same page.

 

She has eyes, so she knows that sunlight follows him whereever he goes. And its been a month, so if her informants have not been able to send her messages to confirm that its a steady phenomena around Rand, then she is so utterly incompetent as to make the whole thing laughable. I mean seriously, the entire world is clouded by the DO, except whereever Rand goes and you think this is something the entire White Tower has not noticed?

 

We know that the White Tower is aware that Rand undoes the DO's influence, due to the scene with Gawyn and Bryne where the apple orchard where Rand made apples grow is marked. Furthermore, there is a scene with Egwene where the clouds return and the food starts spoiling again, and she acknowledges that their brief respite from the DO was because Rand briefly visited. She is also aware that those bonded to Rand cause similar effects, after they start bringing food from Caemlyn where Elayne is.

 

Bottom line, Egwene and the WT know that Rand is spreading light and countering the DO whereever he goes. They know that reality itself utterly supports him now. As for Nynaeve and Cadsuane, both now trust Rand. And they have far more reason to be doubtfull considering they lived with mad!Rand. However even they acknowledge that the new Rand is better, despite knowing far more negatives.

 

Thats basically what bugs me. You can call it "new phenomena", but this new phenomena happens to basically make Rand look like somekind of Light embodiment. You would think that even if Egwene and others don't support Rand in the end, they would atleast wonder why it is that the pattern now supports him so totally, and make it doubt themselves just a little bit. I mean the guy is surrounded by a halo of light and darkfriends cant even look at him. And there is not even a single scene in the book, where even a single character wonders if maybe that might be a sign of some sort. That does not sound very realistic to me to be honest.

 

 

Bloody hell.

 

Have you heard the phrase lead by example and explain without hesitation before?

 

If i was your boss and i told to hey listen dude i want you stop doing what you're doing now and do something completely off canter and get on it without question what would you feel like? Even as an employee you would feel miffed. And rand is certainly not egwene's boss.

 

A true general and leader sits down and explains what he plans to do how he does it and the reasons for it. No amount of light shining out of your arse is certainly going to change this simple fact.

 

If he has the luxury of time to do it. If he doesn't, he tells you what you have to do and you can ask your questions after it's done.

 

As a rule militaries aren't big on debates, they are big on trust. Essentially, you do what the general tells you to do because you trust what he's doing is right even if you don't understand his motives.

[Suttree]

If he has the luxury of time to do it. If he doesn't, he tells you what you have to do and you can ask your questions after it's done.

 

He has had more than enough time to explain the reason he wants to break the seals, and even has time to request the Brown Ajah and WT library to aid Min in her search for finding out how to seal the bore for him. Sure Baerlon CC had a great class on the bore but come on.

 

As a rule militaries aren't big on debates, they are big on trust. Essentially, you do what the general tells you to do because you trust what he's doing is right even if you don't understand his motives.

 

Which of course has very little bearing on the topic at hand.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Basically the last few pages have missed the point completely.

 

Rand purposely left her with no explanations or plans so she would gather the armies at FoM. As he says so very, very frequently in ToM, he has so much to do with so little time, so he got her to give him a hand.

 

Rand was not being stubborn or foolish, nor was Egwene doing anything wrong. It panned out exactly as planned.

 

And no, it wasn't a bad decision. Egwene would not have helped him if he had told her what he needed her for. That would make her look like his Pageboy. Which 1. Egwene does not need. The Aes Sedai will jump at any excuse to bring her down. Taking orders from the Dragon Reborn is not the best look. 2. Rand does not want either. He wants her to help, not try and depose her.

 

The way he did it was really quite genius, it solved many problems. This way Rand can go about making up for lost time and focusing on defeating the DO, Egwene is granted a firmer hold on the Aes Sedai by rallying them to her cause, without the need to battle them every step of the way. And the armies of the world are gathered in one spot ready for TG.

 

He basically makes his and her job that much easier. He hands a large majority of the world to her on a plate in the guise of "anti-seal-breaking-Coalition", something which she, at first, does not grasp, but after a bit of thought (and not under ta'veren influence) she realises the benefits and makes full use of the opportunity he has given her. (She still thinks breaking seals= bad, but thats exactly what is required, by Rand or the Pattern. It wouldn't do any good for Egwene to suddenly see the sense in such a plan, then say "oh, hey guys, don't worry. It all makes sense now, we don't need to convince the Dragon of anything. You can go home now")

 

This is, of course, regarding the meeting itself, that has been the current sub-topic. Other mistakes, real or imagined, from both characters in ToM I leave for another time.

[fionwe1987]

Rand purposely left her with no explanations or plans so she would gather the armies at FoM. As he says so very, very frequently in ToM, he has so much to do with so little time, so he got her to give him a hand.

Yeah, but he could have done it much better. How about instead of openly challenging Egwene, he first sends Nynaeve/Cadsuane with a rational explanation for his plan, and the reasons for needing the rulers together? Then have the stage show of Egwene and Rand disagreeing for the benefit of the AS. Egwene can still disagree with him, but at least they're on the same page as to motives, and have a much better chance of coming up with sensible compromise solutions.

 

And this way, he can at least be more hopeful of support from Egwene once the debate is done. As he made it clear to Nynaeve, he does need her help. Rather than giving off the crazy vibes, riling her up, and then asking Nynaeve to speak well of him, he could have done things in a different order and had a much better time.

[Suttree]

Rand purposely left her with no explanations or plans so she would gather the armies at FoM. As he says so very, very frequently in ToM, he has so much to do with so little time, so he got her to give him a hand.

Yeah, but he could have done it much better.

 

 

Which was of course my point. My bad if I didn't make it that clear.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah, but he could have done it much better. How about instead of openly challenging Egwene, he first sends Nynaeve/Cadsuane with a rational explanation for his plan, and the reasons for needing the rulers together? Then have the stage show of Egwene and Rand disagreeing for the benefit of the AS. Egwene can still disagree with him, but at least they're on the same page as to motives, and have a much better chance of coming up with sensible compromise solutions.

 

And this way, he can at least be more hopeful of support from Egwene once the debate is done. As he made it clear to Nynaeve, he does need her help. Rather than giving off the crazy vibes, riling her up, and then asking Nynaeve to speak well of him, he could have done things in a different order and had a much better time.

 

Rand did something that helped both himself and Egwene, it was an excellent move.

 

Egwene is taking full advantage of this.

 

I find it frustrating that the board is plagued with such fruitless debate from both sides

 

Why can people not just appreciate the damn good work done by both Rand and Egwene, without it turning into a competition and "who does it better"?

 

Of course both of them could do it better. If they had weeks to peruse through the books and study the forums to create a perfect plan they would have no problems.

 

However, this is supposed to be "real" reactions and "real" people.

 

It is a virtually pointless, endless cycle that both sides perpetuate. You get the odd ridiculously outrageous claim, but such can be ignored.

 

We have one side saying "Egwene should have handled it better, done --------."

 

Then the other saying "But Rand should have done --------."

 

Both have very valid points (most of the time), but ignore the other side of it.

 

Both Egwene and Rand have not done things perfectly in regards to the subject of the Seals and FoM.

 

However, they have other things to do. THey do not have the benefit of the 13 books handy to reference or look into all of the characters minds. Nor do they have an unlimited time to perfect their plans. They both have more than enough to think about. THEIR WORLD IS ENDING.

 

All things considered, both Rand and Egwene did very well in regards to the FoM.

 

Edit: Even though I quoted your post, this is not directed at you, or anyone in particular, just a general frustration for the whole debate.

[fionwe1987]

Why can people not just appreciate the damn good work done by both Rand and Egwene, without it turning into a competition and "who does it better"?

 

Of course both of them could do it better. If they had weeks to peruse through the books and study the forums to create a perfect plan they would have no problems.

Its not a competition. Both of them are doing things wrong, and one of the causes is the ridiculous meeting in Tar Valon. Exactly why Rand didn't accept Egwene's offer of further discussion and planning (which he could have legitimately asked to be done in private), I will never know. By then, her opposition to his idea of Breaking the Seals was known. That does it for the Hall. Above and beyond that, they have tons of things to discuss, tons of information they could share, and tons of ways they could cooperate. Both their jobs in the next few weeks would have become much easier if they had talked. And while lack of communication in general is a feature of this series, in this instance, it has no excuse I can think of. Hence my frustration at the way things went.

 

In fact, its so ruinously idiotic that I'm not entirely sure this whole thing wasn't concocted to give a break between ToM and aMoL. The entire thing seems extremely artificial to me, and I wonder if this is how it was in the original outline RJ left. I'm sure there was to be some debate between Egwene and Rand. But was it meant to play out in this ridiculous manner?

[Barid Bel Medar]

edit: AAAAAND I am out of this....

[b3arz3rg3r]

Why can people not just appreciate the damn good work done by both Rand and Egwene, without it turning into a competition and "who does it better"?

 

Of course both of them could do it better. If they had weeks to peruse through the books and study the forums to create a perfect plan they would have no problems.

Its not a competition. Both of them are doing things wrong, and one of the causes is the ridiculous meeting in Tar Valon. Exactly why Rand didn't accept Egwene's offer of further discussion and planning (which he could have legitimately asked to be done in private), I will never know. By then, her opposition to his idea of Breaking the Seals was known. That does it for the Hall. Above and beyond that, they have tons of things to discuss, tons of information they could share, and tons of ways they could cooperate. Both their jobs in the next few weeks would have become much easier if they had talked. And while lack of communication in general is a feature of this series, in this instance, it has no excuse I can think of. Hence my frustration at the way things went.

 

In fact, its so ruinously idiotic that I'm not entirely sure this whole thing wasn't concocted to give a break between ToM and aMoL. The entire thing seems extremely artificial to me, and I wonder if this is how it was in the original outline RJ left. I'm sure there was to be some debate between Egwene and Rand. But was it meant to play out in this ridiculous manner?

 

Rand didn't explain his plan because he doesn't have the time. If he had the time to go about things slowly he probably would have done so, but he doesn't. His few appearances in TOM all conveyed his sense of urgency and while we don't know what he has done for 22 of the 25 days before Merrilor his days were apparently so full he couldn't waste a couple of days arguing with Egwene and the Aes Sedai. So he did what he knew would move the Aes Sedai to gather the armies of the world in one place in the shortest amount of time.

 

If he has the luxury of time to do it. If he doesn't, he tells you what you have to do and you can ask your questions after it's done.

 

He has had more than enough time to explain the reason he wants to break the seals, and even has time to request the Brown Ajah and WT library to aid Min in her search for finding out how to seal the bore for him. Sure Baerlon CC had a great class on the bore but come on.

 

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Without ta'veren effect I would expect convincing the Aes Sedai to take quite some time exactly because they would wait for confirmation while they combed through their libraries trying to find proof for or against Rand's plan. The Tower has tens of thousands of works. Going through all these would take weeks if not months and then they would debate endlessly on the various prophecies etc as well.

Rand believes so much delay to be deadly and I for one think his sense of urgency is right in this case.

 

As a rule militaries aren't big on debates, they are big on trust. Essentially, you do what the general tells you to do because you trust what he's doing is right even if you don't understand his motives.

 

Which of course has very little bearing on the topic at hand.

Indeed it doesn't, but you were mentioning what a good leader or general would do and sometimes a good leader gives an order without explaining things beforehand.

[DaoineSidhe]

I don't really like Egwene's attitude or actions the last couple of books, but in the case of her reaction to Rand's “performance” at the White Tower, I really can't find much fault in her behavior. I will admit that on my first read of Towers of Midnight, I was extremely annoyed with Egwene for putting up such a seemingly stubborn and arrogant disagreement with Rand over the breaking of the Seals. I mean, come on! It is quite obvious to me (and most readers, outside of those who think Fel's slaying was a red herring to throw Rand off the real answers to sealing the Bore) that the old Seals must be broken before re-sealing/healing the Bore.

 

But while we know all of this, Egwene doesn't. What does she know?

 

-That Rand has started to exhibit new powers? Yes.

Included in this: Sunlight effect, Food effect, extreme ta'verenness, Seeing Darkfriends.

 

-That Rand and LTT have truly merged, and if so, in a good way? No.

This point is very key. While Egwene may be starting to get the idea that this is the case, given the amount of time she has been around him recently, and even given accounts from people who are close to him (Nynaeve), this is still a very new phenomenon, one that is seen as dubious by almost everyone. Given the amount of time that Rand has been getting crazier and crazier, and how long Rand has been this new way, it is highly doubtful for anyone to just jump right on board right away with all this new “Rand Al'Telamon”. You may want to believe, but when dealing with an immensely powerful, and possibly crazy Savior, it pays to be extremely cautious in all your dealings with them.

 

-Foreshadowing of Seals Breaking? Yes, but in a very different interpretation than us readers.

While Egwene has had numerous dreams about the Seals breaking, instead of reading this as what must happen, and accepting it, (like controlling saidar, hrm...), thus gaining a way to have some control over the future, Egwene fights against it. Because of her own fear of the Seals breaking, all these Dreams are for her is something that “fills her with a sense of Dread”. She is thinking that she must stop this from happening, this a glimpse of a possible future she must try to avoid.

 

Instead she should be interpreting these Dreams as a glimpse of an immensely Important Event. It is going to happen. The reason for the Dread is because this is the beginning of Tar'mon Gaidin. This event kicks it off. There should be some Dread surrounding that event, reagardless of its necessity.

 

-Any of the research from Fel, Rand, Min, etc. that hint to the Seals needing to break? None whatsoever.

Hrm... this seems kind of important... I mean, this is reasoning and logic for why they must break, usually very important if you want to convince someone of a radical idea. And Egwene has none of this. Nada. Zilch. Zero.

 

So, Egwene knows Rand has some new groovy ta'veren/Dragon Reborn powers manifesting as it gets close to Tar'mon Gaidin. Interesting. But how does that mean that his idea is the right one? It doesn't at all. Does having Superpowers mean your ideas are the best? If Superpowers did exist, I'd be kind of pissed if that's how the world was run, but that's just me.

 

She likely is starting to understand that he is no longer crazy, but instead has all the knowledge of the Age of Legends in his head. Again, its beginning to dawn on Egwene, and everyone else, that this is the case, but thats one bloody big pill to swallow, if you ask me. Plus, given how well things turned out for Lews Therin, doesn't necessitate immediately buying into Rand's idea of breaking the Seals.

 

And some Dreams, which while interesting, have to be interpreted, and so if one interprets them incorrectly, can have disastrous results ie: Elaida's Foretelling to Alviarin about a Tower United with a strong Amyrlin.

 

Add on to this, the Seals, while imperfect, are one of the primary Responsibilities of the Amyrlin Seat (“Watcher of the Flame, Keeper of the Seals, etc. etc.). It has been the job of her position for Three Thousand Years to make sure the Seals are kept safe. True, since the Trolloc Wars they've been lost, but asking the Amyrlin that finally finds them right before Tar'mon Gaidin to then go right ahead and break them?!?! Really?!?! And she's just supposed to accept this?? Without any explanation?

 

Here's a humorous semi-real world analogy:

 

Let's fast forward the current Earth somewhere between 50-100 years. The Ozone Layer is even more greatly depleted than it is today, and the hole that is over Antarctica has spread over most of South America, and another hole has appeared over the Northen Polar region, edging closer to Canada and Alaska.

 

Mysteriously on the scene appears Captain Planet! (I know, but I had to use him for this). He goes around for a few years, doing his Superhero duties in fighting pollution and trying to Save the Earth. Then after doing this for let's say two years, he comes to the UN with a new idea. He has a way to fix the holes in the Ozone layer. It may kill him, but he is willing to do it. However, on a side note, before he can fix these holes, Captain Planet must first instantaneously burn off the rest of the Ozone layer before restoring it to even stronger than before.

 

When the UN asks how doing this is going to fix the holes, he replies, “Can't talk now, I've gotta go get ready for doing this, just wanted to let you guys know. I'll be starting this and destroying the current Ozone layer in two weeks in Antarctica.”

 

Hrm.... how do you think the United Nations would react? If you heard this on the news, what would you say? Just some food for thought.

[TootThatHorn]

dont know if anyone has said this, i feel like i may have read it but what if rand has perrin break the seals with his hammer, i could see that, especially as a declaration of total commitment at the FOM and having perrin do it helps bring more people behind the idea rather than rand himself doing it... a kind of here we are and were not afraid

 

edit: i dont know if that would happen too early on, it may or may not put a rush on things if it happened, but a thought i had

 

The seals are already in a very weakened state. They could probably be crushed by hand.

 

for sure, i just figure theres not a lot of drama in that, and like i said, having another of the taveren do it would be good for rallying people behind the act

 

just found this quote from a different thread about foreshadowing http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/user/19729-pastordesemoladegranoduro/ its a good find i think, and well, it backs up what i said some so im gonna take what i can get lol but here is what it says

 

LoC, Ch.2, pg 101 in my dodgy paperback

 

Mazrim Taim...'whole villages going mad, killing each other. Some could be true. Half what I know to be true is no less insane. I heard some of the seals have been broken.A hammer could break that one.'

 

I think this is a foreshadowing of Perrin using his special hammer to break the remaining seals.

..........

im not ever one who is able to quote out of the book so its nice to find it like that lol