Perrin Aybara: The character

[cwbys21]

I have never seen a grown man whinge and moan as much as perrin. 'Oh i dont want to be a leader waah, my beautiful faile, she's gone, the shaido took her waaah etc etc.

 

It was frankly nauseating to read

In fantasy, the main character's lust for power is pretty common place, so for Robert Jordan to write a character that is supposed to be so integral to the survival of the world to shy away from power is actually rather refreshing.

What? The reluctant hero/leader is one of the most overused tropes in fantasy, and Perrin's case is one of those in which this reluctance makes the least sense. He's basically beaten over the head that the Pattern itself has chosen him for it and it will be necessary for him to act in those capacities, everybody keeps telling him he's doing a great job, yet he still whines and whines and whines...

 

I'd say characters like Egwene and Elayne, who are openly ambitious and like to be leaders, yet are on the side of the Good and are presented (mostly) in positive light, are more refreshing.

 

cwbys21's assertion here blew my mind. I hunt through books to find a good story of an ambitious or at least capable/responsible heroes. They are incredibly rare in the fantasy genre. Though they make be becoming more common as we FINALLY get away from the Tolkien-esk stereotypical fantasy and branch out. I agree with Selig for the most part.

 

What may have made it a little more interesting, is if he had tested the pattern's limits. It's interesting that in the 2Rs he does almost nothing except reiterate the answers people bring to him, and they leave saying, "oh you're such a great leader!". In response, Perrin mopes around complaining. What would have been interested is if he tried doing something else. "Well, if I have to lead then I'll do it on my own terms" type thing. Maybe get frustrated at one point and purposely demand a bad decision and have the pattern fix it for him and still end up giving him the credit. Then he'd have a real reason to be fatalistically depressed. But the crybaby attitude is infuriating.

maybe I just have bad luck in finding the books at the library, but to me, the downtrodden kid finds out he has magic or whatever and all of a sudden its ooh ahh, look what I can do, watch me blow stuff up (kind of like Rand at his most crazy) feels common. Though since someone brought up LotR it popped into my head that Perrin does have some similarities to Aragorn's reluctance to become King of Gondor.

[kght22]

mike havel, dies the fire, sm stirling. sure as hell didnt want to lead anyone, ended up leading because he knew he had to.

I have never seen a grown man whinge and moan as much as perrin. 'Oh i dont want to be a leader waah, my beautiful faile, she's gone, the shaido took her waaah etc etc.

 

It was frankly nauseating to read

In fantasy, the main character's lust for power is pretty common place, so for Robert Jordan to write a character that is supposed to be so integral to the survival of the world to shy away from power is actually rather refreshing.

What? The reluctant hero/leader is one of the most overused tropes in fantasy, and Perrin's case is one of those in which this reluctance makes the least sense. He's basically beaten over the head that the Pattern itself has chosen him for it and it will be necessary for him to act in those capacities, everybody keeps telling him he's doing a great job, yet he still whines and whines and whines...

 

I'd say characters like Egwene and Elayne, who are openly ambitious and like to be leaders, yet are on the side of the Good and are presented (mostly) in positive light, are more refreshing.

 

cwbys21's assertion here blew my mind. I hunt through books to find a good story of an ambitious or at least capable/responsible heroes. They are incredibly rare in the fantasy genre. Though they make be becoming more common as we FINALLY get away from the Tolkien-esk stereotypical fantasy and branch out. I agree with Selig for the most part.

 

What may have made it a little more interesting, is if he had tested the pattern's limits. It's interesting that in the 2Rs he does almost nothing except reiterate the answers people bring to him, and they leave saying, "oh you're such a great leader!". In response, Perrin mopes around complaining. What would have been interested is if he tried doing something else. "Well, if I have to lead then I'll do it on my own terms" type thing. Maybe get frustrated at one point and purposely demand a bad decision and have the pattern fix it for him and still end up giving him the credit. Then he'd have a real reason to be fatalistically depressed. But the crybaby attitude is infuriating.

maybe I just have bad luck in finding the books at the library, but to me, the downtrodden kid finds out he has magic or whatever and all of a sudden its ooh ahh, look what I can do, watch me blow stuff up (kind of like Rand at his most crazy) feels common. Though since someone brought up LotR it popped into my head that Perrin does have some similarities to Aragorn's reluctance to become King of Gondor.

name: mike havel, first book: dies the fire, author: sm stirling. he sure as hell doesn't want to lead anything, but he decided to lead because he wanted to stay alive. he has no ambition beyond living, and one of the last things he planned to do after things were somewhat stable was to re-introduce democracy to his people. many other things transpire in the series but i would wrather not spoil. i just use this as an example of an individual with no real ambition taking over leadership of what eventualy becomes a nation simply because he knows what needs done at one point, and knows how to choose advisors and has a great grasp of history, and a great history and literature advisor. but you would likely have to read the first 3 books in the emberverse to get what i mean. it is exactly sci-fi fanatasy and at this point boardering on high fantasy.

[Maleshub]

Perrin's problem in the books is his moral decay. To me, it was a deep decline. And only towards the end of ToM does he start to redeem himself.

 

- Willingness to allow the Seanchan to leash 200+ damane compared to Rand rejecting the idea in his meeting with Tuon and Mat's whole AS-savior arc.

- Willingness to allow So Harbor to suffer and denying Aes Sedai the chance to help the people. I just cannot fathom that much indifference to human suffering.

- Valuing one human's life over others: Using the people that followed him for a personal objective; even when it led to the deaths of many.

- Blind following of his wife to a degree that almost erases his individual identity: as opposed to Mat's awesome farewell words to Tuon and his standing up to Elayne on the Band's freedom; and opposed to Rand's near obsession with independence and self assertion.

- Neglect of responsibility to his people and his commander

 

He is a ta'veren who pulls threads from the pattern to him and to serve his intended goal. To me, that translated into the pattern pulling threads to turn Perrin's blunders into an overall gain towards TG. And so in the end, it turned out well for the story and plot; but the moral issues cannot be erased.

[Elan Tedronai]

You know what i find funny?

 

This guy was going fave to face with rand regarding the issue of aes sedai when they were captured after dumai wells.

 

Yet he had no qualms about the seanchan enslaving 200 women in one go and treat them basically like pawns. God someone get rid of this guy already!

Edited April 11, 2012 by Elan Tedronai

[XXX]

You know what i find funny?

 

This guy was going fave to face with rand regarding the issue of aes sedai when they were captured after dumai wells.

 

Yet he had no qualms about the seanchan enslaving 200 women in one go and treat them basically like pawns. God someone get rid of this guy already!

 

But he was going to save Faile at that time..oh dear Faile. I hate Faile. she completely ruined Perrin's character

Edited April 11, 2012 by XXX47

[kght22]

think what you will about him, or faile, they are who they are, as i was reminded in another thread this is a character driven story. oddly i have always loved all of the characters (look at my intro on the introduce yourself forum) and i love all of the characters because i love the story. i dare anyone to try to change them and end up with the same story as it stands right now.

[Azrayne]

i dare anyone to try to change them and end up with the same story as it stands right now.

 

I'm not sure about changing them and keeping the same story, but I'm fairly sure you could change them and get a better one :p

[safwd]

You know what i find funny?

 

This guy was going fave to face with rand regarding the issue of aes sedai when they were captured after dumai wells.

 

Yet he had no qualms about the seanchan enslaving 200 women in one go and treat them basically like pawns. God someone get rid of this guy already!

 

What did you want Perrin to do with the Shaido wise ones?

Did Perrin have the ability to capture and contain 200 pissed off channelers with his army. No he did not.

Should he have let them go? Now you have 200 angry channlers behind you. That kind of idea gets you killed.

 

So that really leaves two options, Let the Seanchan have them or while they are drugged out on forkroot stick a sword in them.

 

So option 1: Give them to the Seanchan and let them become Damane

Option 2: Mass murder 200 helpless women.

 

Which should he have chosen?

 

I always like Perrin. I didnt love the Faile chase but i didnt loath it either.

And he redeamed himself as soon as he cut the shaido's hand off.

[Barid Bel Medar]

You know what i find funny?

 

This guy was going fave to face with rand regarding the issue of aes sedai when they were captured after dumai wells.

 

Yet he had no qualms about the seanchan enslaving 200 women in one go and treat them basically like pawns. God someone get rid of this guy already!

 

What did you want Perrin to do with the Shaido wise ones?

 

 

I think Elan was admiring the irony that Perrin would go up against the Dragon Reborn, but would bow to the whims of a Seanchan captain. (For Faile)

 

There are, of course, many, many other factors involved which makes this a pretty invalid comparison, however, on the face of it, I too find it funny.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Barid Bel Medar

[Tyzack]

When I first read through the books (highschool), I the first threads I started skipping where Salidar and Perrin (after LoC). I really like Perrin in the TGH and DR, and shadow rising was fine; faile is annoying.

 

I will reserve final judgement until i complete my reread.

[Maleshub]

What did you want Perrin to do with the Shaido wise ones?

Did Perrin have the ability to capture and contain 200 pissed off channelers with his army. No he did not.

Should he have let them go? Now you have 200 angry channlers behind you. That kind of idea gets you killed.

 

So that really leaves two options, Let the Seanchan have them or while they are drugged out on forkroot stick a sword in them.

 

So option 1: Give them to the Seanchan and let them become Damane

Option 2: Mass murder 200 helpless women.

 

Which should he have chosen?

 

I always like Perrin. I didnt love the Faile chase but i didnt loath it either.

And he redeamed himself as soon as he cut the shaido's hand off.

 

There were other possible alternatives if we're to speculate. I would divide the prisoners into 2 halves: channelers and warriors. Let the Seanchan have the warriors and non-channelers among the Shaido. And let Perrin's Wise One's handle the Shaido channelers. Notice that some Shaido Wise Ones cannot channel and can go to the Seanchan. But this is the extreme case.

 

My bargain would be to cleanse Seanchan land of Shaido and take the prisoners in exchange for Tylee's help. She can go back with the victory; but not the prisoners.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Theodril

[Taryn]

I know one guy whose favorite character is Perrin; course, in real life he falls under this category, as put forth by Theodril:

 

Blind following of his wife to a degree that almost erases his individual identity...

 

 

If you have ever met anyone like this, or have become friends with a person who devotes themselves to no one but their significant other, then you can see why it would be rough to read.

 

And Elan, I come to appreciate your posts more and more ;)

Edited April 11, 2012 by Taryn

[Maleshub]

I know one guy whose favorite character is Perrin; course, in real life he falls under this category, as put forth by Theodril:

 

Blind following of his wife to a degree that almost erases his individual identity...

 

 

If you have ever met anyone like this, or have become friends with a person who devotes themselves to no one but their significant other, then you can see why it would be rough to read.

 

 

Sorry, Taryn! I'm totally lost on the above; and would appreciate a clarification or simpler phrasing.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Theodril

[Taryn]

Hey, no problem Theodril. I was attempting to compare a friend I have with Perrin in the fact that, more often than not, it appears that nothing is ever more important than their wives. Case in point, this friend once arranged a long and late night guys get together, and then left an hour into it because his wife was home early and 'alone'. He is a cool and fun guy, but not such a great friend.....

 

I guess this behavior of Perrin's, that he would deal with the DO, and that he would do anything to have his wife back hits a little close to home. So reading Perrin's 'shaido arc' is kinda rough for me. Not sure if anyone else can identify with this but its what makes Perrin a frustrating character for me, personally.

[Maleshub]

Thanks for the clarification, Taryn!

 

That is a close "domestic" example of Perrin's relationship with Faile. But in the books, he puts his wife ahead of the fate of the world; his duty towards the people he's leading; the welfare of people who need help; and the orders he received from Rand.

 

The sad thing with Perrin is that it didn't start after Faile's abduction by the Shaido. It goes back to the Battle of the Two Rivers. Before the big Trolloc charge and in the week prior to it, Perrin worked to smuggle Faile out of Emond's Field. Reading that, I was wondering why Perrin didn't try to sneak out small groups of women and children to safety. Why did he keep the children in Emond's Field while trying to see Faile safely away from the battle?

 

After Rand's return to Cairhien from Dumai Wells, we see Faile as a "Lady in Attendance" of Queen Colavaere. Rand analyzed the pair correctly.

 

He (Rand) studied him (Perrin) longest, and took the longest time to nod to him to follow him towards the throne. And Perrin's thoughts were, "No one was going to harm Faile, no matter what she had done, no matter why. No matter what he had to do to stop it."

 

Rand's thoughts on Faile in CoS "Pitfalls and Tripwires (7)" were: "Perrin, and Faile. A fierce woman, falcon by name and nature. Had she relly attached herself to Colavaere just to gather evidence? She would try to protect Perrin if the Dragon Reborn fell. Protect him from the Dragon Reborn, should she decide it necessary; her loyalties were to Perrin; but she would decide for herself how to meet them. Faile was no woman to do meekly as her husband told her, if such a woman existed."

 

Faile's loyalty was to Perrin and Perrin's was to her first and foremost.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Theodril

[Taryn]

Good points, I had forgotten about the early 'Battle of the Two Rivers' episode. This thought just popped into my head, but in a strange way Perrin is as much a fanatic concerning his devotion (Faile) as Galad is to his (Law & Order)....interesting.

[Luzburg]

I have a soft spot for Perrin because in many ways hes a mirror of me.

 

I tend to gravitate towards being a leader without in any way looking for it.

I'm a big lad, had watch my strength when I was younger, I once knocked out my cousins teeth horsing around lol.

Being honest, I'm probably just as much of a whiner about my situations in life!

If someone I loved was taken I'd fixate on it, without a doubt.

 

That being said, its still incredibly boring to read his chapters later in the series.

UNTIL, he puts egwene in her place in the dream :)

 

 

(I'm not sure of spoiler rules here... malazan forum is so much easier, )

Edited April 11, 2012 by Luzburg

[safwd]

What did you want Perrin to do with the Shaido wise ones?

Did Perrin have the ability to capture and contain 200 pissed off channelers with his army. No he did not.

Should he have let them go? Now you have 200 angry channlers behind you. That kind of idea gets you killed.

 

So that really leaves two options, Let the Seanchan have them or while they are drugged out on forkroot stick a sword in them.

 

So option 1: Give them to the Seanchan and let them become Damane

Option 2: Mass murder 200 helpless women.

 

Which should he have chosen?

 

I always like Perrin. I didnt love the Faile chase but i didnt loath it either.

And he redeamed himself as soon as he cut the shaido's hand off.

 

There were other possible alternatives if we're to speculate. I would divide the prisoners into 2 halves: channelers and warriors. Let the Seanchan have the warriors and non-channelers among the Shaido. And let Perrin's Wise One's handle the Shaido channelers. Notice that some Shaido Wise Ones cannot channel and can go to the Seanchan. But this is the extreme case.

 

My bargain would be to cleanse Seanchan land of Shaido and take the prisoners in exchange for Tylee's help. She can go back with the victory; but not the prisoners.

 

But you have to understand that Perrin needed the Seanchan to do the raid, his group was not big enough to attack that town and survive. Especially not with the amount of channelers were in the town.

I dont recall how many channelers Perrin's group has but i dont recall it being all that many. The Seanchan collared 200 women from Malden, i have to assume that they could all channel at least somewhat. That means for Perrin to take them he has to be able to shield 200 women. Perhaps he has that capability in his group but i dont think so.

After the battle Perrin aquired a large amount of refugees that he now has to care for. Hundreds of Shaido prisoners, which i would not trust to far, would be a very heavy burden to throw on his group as well.

And would the Seanchan have followed his plan if they got to take just the warriors prisoner? Aiel do not make good prisoners for wetlanders, its not the same process as being taken prisoner by another aiel.

I dont think the Seanchan would have considered it without the price that Perrin was willing to pay.

Perrin understood that he may have to fight these wise ones one day as damane but that day isnt now. Lots of things can happen between now and then, and while the plan was not without some eww factor it was a good plan.

[Elan Tedronai]

It's always easy to make a big scene from a position of strength where nothing is at stake.

 

The guy was ready to go toe to toe with the dragon reborn over the aes sedai. Forgetting the fact these aes sedai kidnapped rand and beat him senseless.

 

Then with the same breath he went right ahead and handed 200 women to a life of slavery and imprisonment to save his wife. So not only is he dumb, stupid and whinges like a fisherwoman, he also has no principles whatsoever.

 

 

It doesn't really matter how much force he had compared to the shaido. His allies especially the DR has much more channellers on his side with ashaman to boot. He could travel and ferry them over. In the end it doesnt matter though. The guy is gutless and pretty much will sell the world to the DO for faile.

 

May shaidar haran take this whinger and his loony wife away from us for good.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Elan Tedronai

[yoniy0]

A couple of points I feel I need to make:

(a) Perrin and Rand's confrontation was planned between the two of them, so no one would wonder where Perrin went to and what he's doing. It got away from them, true, but it was planned nonetheless.

(b) Perrin had two Asha'man with him, capable of Traveling. Moving an army of 100K isn't an easy deal, but sending 200 WO to somewhere they could be handled safely is a different deal altogether. I do believe Tylee would've played along to get rid of them, new damane or not. All Perrin really needed from her was the forkroot; It would've made the battle a close call without her troops, but he could manage it.

[safwd]

It's always easy to make a big scene from a position of strength where nothing is at stake.

 

The guy was ready to go toe to toe with the dragon reborn over the aes sedai. Forgetting the fact these aes sedai kidnapped rand and beat him senseless.

 

Then with the same breath he went right ahead and handed 200 women to a life of slavery and imprisonment to save his wife. So not only is he dumb, stupid and whinges like a fisherwoman, he also has no principles whatsoever.

 

 

It doesn't really matter how much force he had compared to the shaido. His allies especially the DR has much more channellers on his side with ashaman to boot. He could travel and ferry them over. In the end it doesnt matter though. The guy is gutless and pretty much will sell the world to the DO for faile.

 

May shaidar haran take this whinger and his loony wife away from us for good.

 

Rand would not have helped him save Faile. He was Dark Rand at that time and if he knew what Perrin was doing he would have stopped him.

 

And there is a difference between the Aes Sedai and the Wiseones, besides the fact that he fight with Rand was staged.

The Aes Sedai were not enemies, wrong yes, Very wrong yes, but not enemies. The Saido are 100% enemies that would kill the lot of them without blinking an eye.

 

And in the long run it wont matter. Those new Damane will be helping in the last battle which they would not have been doing if the Shaide wise ones were turned loose somewhere.

[XXX]

Yes. Rand would not have saved Faile because Faile was not worth sacrificing hundreds of people on a useless war. Faile versus the world. I guess the world wins except for Perrin of course.

[David Selig]

Uh, Rand certainly would've send his Aiel against the Shaido if he knew where they were- they were his enemies after all. The fact that Perrin didn't even think about asking Rand for that only shows what a doofus he was at this point. Rand wasn't Dark Rand back in WH, BTW.

[Maleshub]

A couple of points I feel I need to make:

(a) Perrin and Rand's confrontation was planned between the two of them, so no one would wonder where Perrin went to and what he's doing. It got away from them, true, but it was planned nonetheless.

 

The confrontation between Perrin and Rand over the Aes Sedai is different from the one they faked to send Perrin to Ghealden. The first occured in CoS, "Old Fear, and New Fear (6)" Where Perrin tells Rand that the Aes Sedai are women and prisoners and that he "won't let them be hurt."

Edited April 12, 2012 by Theodril

[yoniy0]

But I don't think that was 'going against the DR'. It was telling your friend you think he's doing something wrong, and it doesn't take any special effort or courage. 'Going against him' would be saying so in public and getting into a fight.