Is ever victorious army a myth?

[Agitel]

However, on the oceans, one interesting quote we can use is that the Land of Madmen is roughly the same distance away from the southern coast of the westlands as Seanchan is from the western coast. About 8,000 miles south of the coast of the westlands is the southpole.

 

So I'm going to call the 9,000 mile estimate on the world map a mistake.

 

Could you elaborate further? Because I'm not seeing a problem. The Pacific Ocean is actually shrinking even now due to plate tectonics whilst the Atlantic is getting wider. The references to our world are vague enough that I'm still not convinced that they are actual evidence rather than a sly wink at the readers. Unless RJ directly confirmed it somewhere I'm going to chalk it up to him simply using maps as a reference to design his world.

 

Anyway, having actually got out a ruler and measured the differing distances, I came up with a 5 cm length (6000 miles approx.) between the Westlands and the north coast of the LoM and a 9 cm (10,000 miles approx.) distance between the Westlands and the Seanchan continent. It's approximate due to the irregular coasts but there is a significant difference between them. Perhaps the continent sits a little further west than the map shows, but then we have to assume that the map itself has other inaccuracies, which is just as much of a problem.

 

If the scale is wrong then there's no point in continuing because nothing regarding the journey can be proven or disproven. If it's right then the Seanchan's journey with zero mortality from disease is simply not possible.

 

RJ didn't confirm my analysis or anything (of course) but he has confirmed that the Wheel of Time takes place on Earth and that our modern day era is just an Age on the Wheel, both the past and future of the books.

 

I believe the world map given to us comes from The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, however this quote comes from the same book: "Approximately equidistant from Seanchan's borders and roughly south of our land across the Sea of Storms is the third continent. Nameless, except to its inhabitants, it was discovered by the Sea Folk, who call it "the Land of Madmen" and do their best to avoid it." The southern coast extends "to within five hundred miles of the southern icecap".

 

I'm not sure I'd consider 6,000 and 10,000 'approximately equidistant'. The scale seems to be right when put on the continents themselves. It's the ocean that concerns me.

 

Either way, it's an incredibly long journey. Diseases seem to be far less common in the Third Age than they do in the modern world, perhaps a leftover of the Age of Legends, where we can assume that many common diseases were completely eradicated.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Reading back on the debate, I realise that it is possible that some might think I am trying to say that Seanchan would totally demolish the westlands. That is not the case, I was simply pointing out the sheer might of the Seanchan Empire that could possibly be used. It may indeed be that the Westlands have enough power to defeat the Seanchan, I only wanted to point out that the Aiel and others using circles would hardly be certain victory for them. The Seanchan are powerful enough to do what is claimed in Avi's visions.

[michellem]

About the Seanchan invasion;

 

I see several bring up problems about the invasion. Number of ships, time taken to build, and how to find food and water (since we assume there is no islands, and that they had no way of knowing if there were any). You seem to forget that this is a people buildt around institutionalized slavery. Damane is used for everything. If a ship normally take 2-3 months to buiild; how fast do you think damane can make them? How fast can they chop down trees, make them into planks? We have seen Keepings used in the WT; something similar can probably be used to keep the wood fresh on even the oldest ships. Damane also remove all thoughts of food and water; they can draw the salt out of salt water to make drinkable water and probably also use the Power to catch fish and seabirds. The damane are tools, and the Seanchan are good at using their tools.

[Maleshub]

From memory of reading Tuon on her way to Ebou Dar, the Seanchan Empire has been building ships for 2 generations to prepare for the Return. With stability and no significant conflicts, that is a considerable amount of time to build those ships and prepare for the return. I doubt that preparations were limited to building ships and building up the army. Much effort would go into food and logistics as well. And if the power is involved in preserving the wood, then the Seanchan have enough ships to transport hundreds of thousands of people across the Ocean.

[muddasssir]

sorry but we have seen no reference whatsoever of catching or trapping animals with power. this is pure conjecture.

[Agitel]

sorry but we have seen no reference whatsoever of catching or trapping animals with power. this is pure conjecture.

 

Moiraine catches a fish in a river with her bare hands at one point. She says she's never done it before. It's somewhat implied she used the power to stun the fish, the boys just don't know it.

 

With that said, I don't think damane were used for tasks like bringing down animals at all. They are useful tools, but they aren't common, and there are better uses for them.

[csnyder]

Considering links, we also have to be aware of the problems with a'dam. The nature of this ter'angreal does not allow for angreal/sa'angreal augmentation on either the damane nor the sul'dam (remember when Elayne removed the a'dam bracelet?); that, or this augmentation has not been allowed due to the nature of the damane. Additionally, the asha'man also set off the power balance and there are AS who have knowledge about bringing men into the link considerably increasing any link's strength and endurance (consider Egwene in the WT, albeit she switched out the novices several times...BUT, she also was not at her complete channeling strength with the residual forkroot in her.). Even with this general offset and power imbalance, the information that is still tightly held among the Seanchan (of the nature of the sul'dam) Blood has yet to be revealed - this information would really limit the Imperial strength (more than it has already on the Seanchan continent with the Imperial Family removed) even in the most optimistic of circumstances. The sul'dam/damane-Imperial Family interrelation is so integral to the Seanchan that pessimistically it could destroy the Empire entirely.

 

Unfortunately, as I assume, this reveal will probably be detrimental to BOTH sides of the Aryth Ocean - a strong Seanchan Empire is probably very important and necessary for the Forces of the Light to succeed in TG. No doubt in my mind that Semirhage and the Dark were/are very aware of this fact and efforts to remove the Imperial Family to remove this potential base of power will hurt both sides of the Light. Egwene may have to forgive the collaring for mankind's survival.

[Mr Ares]

I specifically mentioned other circles waiting for channelers they are not taking part in the battle. their role is to neutralize damanes. With Damanes taken out of equation they can have their own channelers let loose with no fear of repercussion. A condition similar to landing of allied forces on Normandy beach. With absence of Wehrmacht Allied air forces had a free run. they could pound Nazi forces mercilessly without any kind of repercussions. Also, you are ignoring that Seanchan are used to fighting with advantage of damanes on their side. they are not going to deal very well with shoe on the other foot.

The problem with the idea of other circles is that those other circles will be being attacked. The Seanchan have more experience than the Westlands of dealing with conflicts with channelers on both sides. Links bring with them certain advantages and disadvantages. With a circle of 27, for example, you would have to take out rather more chanelers than if you just had to face down one or two with sa'angreal. On the other hand, you also have to move a big group of people around, and you essentially have to have one channeler defending 26 others, in addition to whatever offensive weaves are being used. As stated, a big circle is a hammer. Hammers aren't suitable for every task. That the ability to link is an advantage has already been admitted, but it is not as great an advantage as you seem to believe. It is a tactic that can be countered. Your proposed tactics (circles to protect circles) is, in WWII analogy terms, akin to using a screen of bombers to protect your bombers. A big cricle backed up by individual channelers would give greater tactical flexibility. As it is, you have to resort to using big hammer blows on every single threat, no matter how small. Twenty damane attack at once from twenty different directions - what happens to your circle? If the person in charge cannot block all twenty incoming attacks, then some get through. Every casualty weakens your strength. Next barrage, you find it harder to stop all the incoming attacks, and so take more casualties. Circles can be wiped out by attrition. Huge hammer blows can be blocked by diffusing your force, giving you too many targets to attack at once, and the strikes you bring against them being too powerful. A damane and sul'dam with Traveling has the advantage of manoeuvrability over a big circle (easier to get two women through a Gateway than twenty). Links, used well, in the hands of a good general, would help a fair bit. Links by themselves do not win you the war. Linking is not a game-changer.

 

That is the whole purpose of the circle. individual strength does not matter. Look at Egwene's defense of Wt. She could barely channel and she destroyed the Seanchan force almost single handed. Also Wise ones will not have any compunctions in using OP as a weapon unlike AS therefore they are going to do better than As did at Wt raid. Last everyone is conveniently forgetting the rebellion that is taking place at Main land Seanchan. They are not going to be able to walk in and walk out with supplies, troops and weapons.

Individual strength does matter in a circle. Where do you think the power comes from? A circle is less than the sum of its parts. A bunch of weak channelers together won't necessarily be stronger than one really strong channeler. And everyone you take out of the link weakens it.

 

While the Wise Ones might have no compunctions about using the OP as a weapon, they also have less experience with using it in general, and quite possibly using it in combat specifically. Oh, I'll grant you that the Aiel Waste means that they probably do have to have experience in defending themselves, and many of them would be former Maidens, but WOs are noncombatants for the most part. How would they cope wth a situation similar to the raid? Well, they would recover from their surprise faster, and that's about it. That's their biggest advantage. They would get their defences up and running faster. Useful, I'll grant you, but if the end result is fewer WOs down/taken, but also fewer to'raken out of action, then does it really qualify as a significantly greater victory?

 

sorry but we have seen no reference whatsoever of catching or trapping animals with power. this is pure conjecture.

So? A significant amount of this topic is conjecture. For example, we don't know how many ships the Seanchan could make at once, whether they had ways to preserve the wood in the ships, whether there were outbreaks disease during the crossing, how many ships were made, how long the crossing took... The Return is a massive task, and it would have taken a considerable amount of resources, but that's about the only thing that isn't conjecture. You're complaining about speculating whether it's possible to go fishing with the OP?

[muddasssir]

thank you very much Mr Ares than I stand vindicated. Very topic is "Is Ever victorious army a myth? " If everything is conjecture than it has to be a myth.

[Mr Ares]

That doesn't really make any sense. Of course, the title of the topic doesn't make any sense either. The EVA is not a myth - it actually exists in story (indeed, the Ever Victorious Army actually existed in history - RJ simply lifted the name). Myth and conjecture are not the same thing, and the two terms cannot be used interchangeably. We don't know the precise details of how they got everyone across the ocean, nor do we have a precise number of people that they got across. Hence conjecture being needed to explain it. So if we go by the title of the topic, no, the EVA is not a myth.

[muddasssir]

Ok let us look at the facts. Mat with something between 10,000 to 15000 soldiers have them running around inn circle and Rodel with much smaller force have them in a bind. At Falme, they had their tales whipped. Only people they have beaten so far are the hapless villagers who were scared shit less by damanes. Please quote me from books an engagement that Seanchan have actually won. Even Rand had them on the run until he decided to use Callandor to kill his own soldiers. It means that our EVA might stand for Extra Vehicular Activity but have no legs to stand on as far as "Ever Victorious Army" goes.

[Sharaman]

Mat made a series of hit-and-run raids and ambushes - the only pitched battle be fought was at the end at odds of 6:10 against. That's no big deal, given better equipment and training.

Rodel pulled off a couple of great tactical victories and he was well-aware that he wouldn't be able to sustain this,

He wasn't outnumbered btw when he actually fought and Mat too wasn't outnumbered except in the last KoD battle against untrained Western troops.

"EVA" doesn't mean they win every battle - it does mean that they learn from every lost battle and they have been able to win every war. - the consolidation of Seanchan took over 600 years

Just as Seward and Gordon did, eventually, the EVA learnt enough from its possibly multiple defeats to win every war..

[XXX]

The Seachan are the only army in the Randland actually trained to work with channelers. Their tactics and training have developed over hundreds of years so that they make maximum use of the OP in conjunction with their regular army.

 

It is no wonder that they smash the Aiel in Avi's vision. I think they can beat any army in randland even if the opposing army has has As or AM with them for the simple fact that they would not have trained how to work with OP wielders like the Seachan.

[muddasssir]

Sorry but you still did not give any proves whatsoever. You are just repeating propoganda. I mean who have they faced in a battle or even in a war and defeated it. You yourself quoted it took them 600 years to consolidate without any organized resistence. You may present it as one more mindless thing that we have to accept because it is but we are yet to meet any proof of the glorious fighting abilities of Seanchan forces.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Ok let us look at the facts. Mat with something between 10,000 to 15000 soldiers have them running around inn circle and Rodel with much smaller force have them in a bind. At Falme, they had their tales whipped. Only people they have beaten so far are the hapless villagers who were scared shit less by damanes. Please quote me from books an engagement that Seanchan have actually won. Even Rand had them on the run until he decided to use Callandor to kill his own soldiers. It means that our EVA might stand for Extra Vehicular Activity but have no legs to stand on as far as "Ever Victorious Army" goes.

 

Alright, I understand what you are saying now, you are correct.

 

We have not seen any proof of this military might, at least to the extent of an effectively "immortal" army. It is most likely in fact a great exaggeration, like a lot of their titles are grandiose, like that of the Empress and saying -may she live forever.

 

However, if we want to go into the little details like you seem to want to, technically, they ARE the EVA. Since they have never been defeated in a WAR. Individual battles they have lost, but they always win the war. We have no evidence about the armies that opposed the Seanchan, apart from references to relbellions and some unorganized resistance. However, Luthair, when he sailed to the continent, held no lands, yet conquered all of the continent (granted, over a long time). Still, uniting a continent the size of America is no easy feat I am not sure if any nation in the history of the world (Real) has done this, although it is nearly impossible to compare, since we are talking about land mass, not population and strength of arms.

 

Also worth noting that the three battles you refer to are a very small and unique percentage of war.

 

Rand is the Dragon Reborn, with callandor and a force of male channelers, who the seanchan have never had to fight against before, who had the advantage of Travelling. Including his other forces, which are by no means weak. Even with this power, it comes out a draw. It is not in fact, because of Rand going crazy, that they "lost". He did that because Rand thought he was losing. After failing with Callandor, Bashere convinced him that there was no way they could win, and retreated.

 

Mat, we have to remember, has the memories of hundreds specializing in a time when armies were much more advanced. (like pitting Dark Age Feudal armies against the Roman Legions). He is probably the greatest military commander alive at the moment, with superior troops and weapons. (the repeating crossbows, etc..) The Seanchan force he decimated did not even consist of Seanchan in bulk. Nor was there any raken, to'raken or damane. Furthermore, the army was mostly made up of Amadicians, Taraboners and Domani who swore to the Seancahn. Hardly comparable to the actual EVA.

 

Ituralde is probably the best case in your favour, and even still, is not very good. Ituralde is one of the 5 Great Commanders in the Westlands. He is fighting on home turf and has no retreat, unlike the Seanchan, who are the agressors. It is a common thought that the attackers must outnumber the defenders at least 3:1 to win. Yes, the Seanchan did have that numbers, and yes, Ituralde did win a great victory over the Seanchan (although they were not commanded by one of their greatest Generals, like Ituralde). Furthermore, even after this battle, Ituralde did not truly win. Even after his best tactical strikes (before this big battle,when he planned the guerrilla war against them) the fact was, until Rand showed up, he was waiting for the Seanchan to wipe him out, thus supporting the term "EVA".

 

Also, in a few months a fraction of the actual Seanchan Empire ( perhaps 1/10 or 1/5 of the forces) had conquered and securely hold at least 1/3 of the Westlands. Tarabon, Altara, Amidicia, Gheledan (I can never spell it) and half of Arad Doman.

 

SO your examples do not really hold up. While not exactly representative of an "EVA", it shows that the name is not simply a lie. They have some merit to support their claim.

 

Edit: Also worth mentioning that, although they did not wipe out the WT, it was nonetheless a victory in their eyes. A RAID, little more than 1,000 or so troops with a few damane. (sorry, not sure of exact numbers, it was in any case nothing like an army) shook the White Tower to its core. Showing that circles and channelers do not pose that big of a threat to them. Remembering that Egwene did not "beat" the Seanchan, she merely blunted their attack. Their intentions were fulfilled. They never meant to overwhelm and actually conquer the White Tower, it was only a raid.

 

Edit edit: This is not to say that you are wrong. Just that there is evidence to support them, and your argument does not validate any of your claims.

[Mr Ares]

Ok let us look at the facts. Mat with something between 10,000 to 15000 soldiers have them running around inn circle and Rodel with much smaller force have them in a bind. At Falme, they had their tales whipped. Only people they have beaten so far are the hapless villagers who were scared shit less by damanes. Please quote me from books an engagement that Seanchan have actually won. Even Rand had them on the run until he decided to use Callandor to kill his own soldiers. It means that our EVA might stand for Extra Vehicular Activity but have no legs to stand on as far as "Ever Victorious Army" goes.

This is what you come up with as a counter to my point? It doesn't really address anything that I said. Still, if you wish to change the subject, this is no less worthy of debate. An engagement that the Seanchan have actually won: the Battle of Jeramel, aka Ailron's Disaster. Battle of Ebou Dar. Battle of Amador. They successfully conquered Tarabon, Amadicia and Altara, not to mention the entire Seanchan continent. Rand was faced with defeat in the face of a superior foe (Bashere was urging retreat) before he used Callandor - and both sides claim that as a defeat, not just the Seanchan. They were also on the verge of wiping out Ituralde's army when Rand intervened and rescued them - while he had had some tactical victories, he had lost the war, and even noted that the Seanchan adapted to his tactics, so he didn't even bleed them as much as he would haveliked, and initially anticipated, before being faced with that inevitable loss. The raid on the WT was considered a success. Aside from Falme (faced with Heroes of the Horn - who couldn't be killed) and Mat's campaign in KoD, none of their campaigns has ended in defeat, only victory or a draw.

 

Sorry but you still did not give any proves whatsoever. You are just repeating propoganda. I mean who have they faced in a battle or even in a war and defeated it. You yourself quoted it took them 600 years to consolidate without any organized resistence. You may present it as one more mindless thing that we have to accept because it is but we are yet to meet any proof of the glorious fighting abilities of Seanchan forces.

The Seanchan continent was home to various AS warlords, backed up by their armies and the exotic creatures. What on earth makes you think they didn't have to face organised resistance? They weren't facing a continent spanning empire or alliance, but there was a lot of organised resistance, not just a peasant rabble. Even within the series, we have seen them win battles and bring campaigns to successful conclusions.

[muddasssir]

you have raised some fairly valid points and I do agree with some of them. Although Other than WT They have had no victories. to write home about. Only other success that I can contribute was taking of Maradon. Which was of course Perrin's show and Khirgee was along for a ride only or to procure fork root. Let me be honest I do not like Seanchan's and maybe that is a factor that I do not want to think about a world dominated by them. Having said that we have not seen a single proof of them winning an engagement in which they had enemies with teeth who could bite back. As for them winning Altara, Tarabon and Amdacia. Out of these three only Amadacia had a fighting force and some of the children of light reached some sort of agreement with them. Now my memory being what it is does not tell me whether that was after or before the take over of Amadacia. As for Ebou Dar we saw how pathetic they were with less than couple of thousand Guards for Amathera and they controlled nothing outside the City proper. Similarly, Altara was given up without a fight by the Queen who had Mat as pet. I am again forgetting the name. As for Rand losing I think you need to go back and reread the passage. From what I can remember and you cannot really depend upon it. Rand,s party had them on the run and they were just not winning fast enough that is why he took out Callandor. I do not remember exactly but a quote will be appreciated.

[kght22]

actualy them taking those nations without much of a fight speaks to their ability as a military force. they had good intelligence and good tactics, and as such were able to subdue those first nations without much of a fight with overwhelming surprise. it is true that rand was able to blunt them to the east, but they have been steadily advancing in the north regardless of any lost battles. keep in mind that a battle isn't the war. had those first nations had any sort of advanced warning they could have started conscripting their citizens and preparing to defend, the fact that they were able to take them so totaly unaware, while having their seekers get them intelligence in advance, speaks to a pretty advanced, and even modern approach to military tactics. you cant just discount those victories because they looked easy, the greatest victories take the least ammount of force. and of course by extension cost you much fewer resources.

[Simpleman2012]

The Seanchans had it easy as Randland was already in Chaos when they arrived. The Forsaken were actively spreading chaos everywhere. Kings and Queens were either abducted or manipulated, agriculture in turmoil from the weather and blight, the masses were hungry, and Moridin's instructed Masma mob were an uncontrollable mob everywhere. Banditry and lawlessness was everywhere.

 

2 false dragons lead arm men against their leaders. A petty white tower, whom Randlanders cower in fear, were in disunity with bad leadership and commands issued to its ambassadors/counsellors in other nations.

 

Ebou dou was largely handed over to them by the Queen and his son Beslan. Amadacia too was handed over to them by the selfish senile leaders of the Children whom betrayed the King. No one ruled in Arad Domain.

 

As the Seanchan were an organised and disciplined force, it was a largely a breeze for conquest over mere rabble. More so when they had collared dammes to do their bidding, instead of petty aes sedais in charge.

 

Even Rand with his Aiel could put order into the Randlands he conquered, such as Illian, Tear, Arad Doman, etc.

 

 

But when face with the might of Rand and the Aiel in illian, the Seanchan are no more than mere children given rifles, even with dammes under their control. As a military force, they are a joke when pitted against Rand. It is only because Rand have no wish for murder that he wanted to bind them to fight in the last battle, or with the blow of a horn, the Seanchans would had been wiped off Randland.

[Suttree]

This is what you come up with as a counter to my point? It doesn't really address anything that I said.

 

I'm coming to realize that is fairly standard operating procedure for Mudd...

[csnyder]

As far as the Randland West goes, it was largely easy-pickings for the Seanchan. Someone stated 600 years for the Consolidation? It may have been 900 - I could have sworn I read that somewhere... - and it is in the recent past (some hundred years or so). Additionally, if Alivia is any representative of damane age, then we have pre-Consolidation damane still living and serving as an active threat to the sul'dam-based military. Even without links, a hike in the damane population could help the Seanchan initially, but ultimately be so dramatic to cause a drop in population of sul'dam which could damage the Seanchan with all of the not-under-control damane.

 

Not only that, we have the issue of Asha'man - who, per Aviendha's viewing, could be the people with the Light-weapon things - and have no real methodology through which to be controlled (how many sad bracelets are there? The control eventually shifts to the male ultimately, so who is to say this is really effective anyway). Initially, the Seanchan may win superficially, but their culture as a consolidated whole is done for. It says time and time again that the Luthair fleet became a part of Seanchan as well as conquered it, so this is highly reactionary in nature; moreso, it would appear with all of these rebellions occuring pre-Return as well as the initial chaos on Seanchan after the entire Imperial Family (sans Fortuona) that the nations' statuses pre-Luthair as a shifting quilt of nations still remains (remember Karede's tribesman and his distance from the Seandari rule), in effect. The Seanchan are more or less dealt with until absorbed - have we seen Ebou Dari holidays still celebrated or have they been eradicated? This could show more information of the shallow-control that the Return Seanchan have on Randland.

 

This can be extended to the military force as well. Dissention among the Taraboners (a national characteristic it would seem) would spread throughout the army/nations and cause rebellions on Randland, as well. What was interesting for me was that Shara and the Randland-Seanchan had some sort of alliance post-TG; for the EVA this seemed uncharacteristic of their expansionism and likely proof of the thinness of the Seanchan control or perhaps this was proof of the Seanchan's true purpose shifting to the eradication of the Aiel and their fervor for it (the Aiel did break the Dragon's Peace). Clearly, the Seanchan as an EVA is not a myth - ultimately, as things stand, they will win (but to what extent? And when the time comes generations later, what will the Seanchan be other than an undefined population of various cultures under temporary/reactionary rule?). Why do the Seanchan stop at taking Shara over/ally with them?

[Suttree]

As far as the Randland West goes, it was largely easy-pickings for the Seanchan. Someone stated 600 years for the Consolidation? It may have been 900 - I could have sworn I read that somewhere... - and it is in the recent past (some hundred years or so).

 

BWB says...

 

The Conquest, however, also called the Consolidation, required nearly three hundred years, and another two centuries passed before the last resistance was expunged and Luthair's descendants reigned a land totally at peace. So far as any empire can be at peace.

 

Can't recall if anything in the text says different.

[csnyder]

As far as the Randland West goes, it was largely easy-pickings for the Seanchan. Someone stated 600 years for the Consolidation? It may have been 900 - I could have sworn I read that somewhere... - and it is in the recent past (some hundred years or so).

 

BWB says...

 

The Conquest, however, also called the Consolidation, required nearly three hundred years, and another two centuries passed before the last resistance was expunged and Luthair's descendants reigned a land totally at peace. So far as any empire can be at peace.

 

Can't recall if anything in the text says different.

 

Just reviewed BWB and you are correct, however my rudimentary skill in math finds that this doesn't add up...

So, Hawkwing sends Luthair to Seanchan in FY 992; anytime after (and this is excessive estimating here) FY 993 and FY 994 they arrive to the huge continent. I assume the Consolidation plan, at most if not immediately upon arrival, began some two hundred years later which would be roughly 100 NE (FY 1117 = 1 NE). If Karede's (I believe it was him, a Seanchan stated so in TPoD) statement that one hundred to two hundred (or two generations) years prior to 'modern times' the end of the Consolidation was STILL going on is to be believed, that places the End of the Consolidation at least 800 NE at most 700 NE. The rounding up and heavy estimation (200-year Luthair adaptation to Seanchan? I suppose the United States does reflect this idea, but the so-called Native American threat hardly lasted that long and expansion of the continent was complete a hundred plus years post-Declaration) places that length anywhere from 700-800 years.

 

(EDIT) TPoD, Gathering Clouds

He [bakuun, not Karede] had missed the last battles of the Consolidation by two hundred years, but some of those rebellions had not been small. Two years fighting on Marendalar, thirty thousand dead, and fifty times that shipped back to the mainland as property. p.491 (Paperback)

[Muad Cheade]

Still, uniting a continent the size of America is no easy feat I am not sure if any nation in the history of the world (Real) has done this, although it is nearly impossible to compare, since we are talking about land mass, not population and strength of arms.

Alexander the Great.

 

you have raised some fairly valid points and I do agree with some of them. Although Other than WT They have had no victories. to write home about. Only other success that I can contribute was taking of Maradon. Which was of course Perrin's show and Khirgee was along for a ride only or to procure fork root..

Mr Ares just listed several of them.

 

Let me be honest I do not like Seanchan's and maybe that is a factor that I do not want to think about a world dominated by them.

So you're admitting your not being objective?

 

Having said that we have not seen a single proof of them winning an engagement in which they had enemies with teeth who could bite back.

Every battle could have been a defeat for the Seanchan, but they were victorious.

 

As for them winning Altara, Tarabon and Amdacia. Out of these three only Amadacia had a fighting force and some of the children of light reached some sort of agreement with them. Now my memory being what it is does not tell me whether that was after or before the take over of Amadacia.

The Children of the Light switched sides after the Battle of Jeramel.

 

As for Ebou Dar we saw how pathetic they were with less than couple of thousand Guards for Amathera and they controlled nothing outside the City proper. Similarly, Altara was given up without a fight by the Queen who had Mat as pet. I am again forgetting the name.

Queen Tylin. Are you saying that the Seanchan conquered Altara too easily? I don't get this reasoning.

 

As for Rand losing I think you need to go back and reread the passage. From what I can remember and you cannot really depend upon it. Rand,s party had them on the run and they were just not winning fast enough that is why he took out Callandor. I do not remember exactly but a quote will be appreciated.

Rand was hammering them initially, but the Seanchan, like they do in every war adapted to his tactics. If Rand had stopped like Bashere and Gregorin recommended, it would've have been a victory. When he pressed on towards Ebou Dar, the Seanchan stopped him. It was a stalemate and both sides believed it was a defeat. Rand used Callandor because the tide of the battle shifted.

 

But when face with the might of Rand and the Aiel in illian, the Seanchan are no more than mere children given rifles, even with dammes under their control. As a military force, they are a joke when pitted against Rand. It is only because Rand have no wish for murder that he wanted to bind them to fight in the last battle, or with the blow of a horn, the Seanchans would had been wiped off Randland.

Read my previous comment and tPoD.

 

As far as the Randland West goes, it was largely easy-pickings for the Seanchan. Someone stated 600 years for the Consolidation? It may have been 900 - I could have sworn I read that somewhere... - and it is in the recent past (some hundred years or so). Additionally, if Alivia is any representative of damane age, then we have pre-Consolidation damane still living and serving as an active threat to the sul'dam-based military. Even without links, a hike in the damane population could help the Seanchan initially, but ultimately be so dramatic to cause a drop in population of sul'dam which could damage the Seanchan with all of the not-under-control damane.

The Consolidation was 800 years. It officially ended 200 years before the series. It is unlikely there are any rogue damane.

 

Just because the Consolidation only ended 200 years ago does not mean the Seanchan were not in control of the majority of the continent. I may have eaten the first three courses of my dinner but I am not necessarily finished with it.

 

Not only that, we have the issue of Asha'man - who, per Aviendha's viewing, could be the people with the Light-weapon things - and have no real methodology through which to be controlled (how many sad bracelets are there? The control eventually shifts to the male ultimately, so who is to say this is really effective anyway). Initially, the Seanchan may win superficially, but their culture as a consolidated whole is done for. It says time and time again that the Luthair fleet became a part of Seanchan as well as conquered it, so this is highly reactionary in nature; moreso, it would appear with all of these rebellions occuring pre-Return as well as the initial chaos on Seanchan after the entire Imperial Family (sans Fortuona) that the nations' statuses pre-Luthair as a shifting quilt of nations still remains (remember Karede's tribesman and his distance from the Seandari rule), in effect. The Seanchan are more or less dealt with until absorbed - have we seen Ebou Dari holidays still celebrated or have they been eradicated? This could show more information of the shallow-control that the Return Seanchan have on Randland.

The Seanchan have fought well against the Asha'man. They fought them to a stalemate in Altara/Illian and in Aviendha's vision, they destroyed the Black Tower, so they are more than able to go toe to toe with them.

 

The Seanchan rule an empire... a collection of kingdoms. They also allow these kingdoms to exist as they did (with their traditions and governments) before the Seanchan conquered them so long as they swear fealty. You're implying that these means the Seanchan have loose control over these subject kingdoms when the opposite is the case.

 

This can be extended to the military force as well. Dissention among the Taraboners (a national characteristic it would seem) would spread throughout the army/nations and cause rebellions on Randland, as well. What was interesting for me was that Shara and the Randland-Seanchan had some sort of alliance post-TG; for the EVA this seemed uncharacteristic of their expansionism and likely proof of the thinness of the Seanchan control or perhaps this was proof of the Seanchan's true purpose shifting to the eradication of the Aiel and their fervor for it (the Aiel did break the Dragon's Peace). Clearly, the Seanchan as an EVA is not a myth - ultimately, as things stand, they will win (but to what extent? And when the time comes generations later, what will the Seanchan be other than an undefined population of various cultures under temporary/reactionary rule?). Why do the Seanchan stop at taking Shara over/ally with them?

Fighting rebellions is something the Seanchan do on a regular basis. They have a successful history fighting rebellions... it's not likely that will change. Like I said earlier, the Seanchan are an empire of kingdoms. If I recall correctly, it simply says that the "Raven Empire sent word to the Far Ones" to attack from the east. Shara could either be subject to the Empire or an ally. It's not clear.

[muddasssir]

First thing Muad please do not quote me like that it gives me queasy feeling. Ok coming back to your points. Well. I admitted that maybe I am not completely objective so no point in rubbing that one in. Mr Ares did and I countered it with a very valid argument that they did not defeat anyone with a sizable army. Since, you are very fond of historical parallels. Did not Blitzkrieg started like that? Nazis had Poland in few days, France went next despite the Maginot line and within few sort months they had the control of entire continental Europe in few months. Why cannot we take that as a historical parallel. Until American forces joined in with superior Air force and the tide of war turned. Similarly, Wise ones are going to have the support from Ashamen. As for Avi's vision. well that is the whole purpose of the exercise. we are working on the premise that it is not going to happen. As for Suttree well your faith in my talent is overwhelming and I read your comment with tears in my eyes. But this is the problem. You people refuse to accept anything that does not match with your preconceived notions and absolutely refuse to look at the evidence in its entirety and just take the most inconsequential part and insist on it. I am again saying that this so called EVA is yet to beat an organized fighting force. Again nobody answered me when I raised the objection that they have a rebellion back in Seanchan and they will find it hard to go back and field in ridiculously large armies that they have been conjuring out of thin air. Again we are being asked for suspension of disbelief and to accept things because they are.