Another Demandred topic

[XoMeltdownoX]

For those who hold to the belief that Taim was meant to be an alter ego of Demandred, but was changed because RJ thought too many people were on to him, I ask you to read this. All LoC evidence is purely circumstantial, but weak. I put forth this counter argument, also circumstantial, but refutes your claim early in the series, before proof in the books killed the Taimandred theory.

 

Demandred hates LTT. I mean hates with every fiber of his being. From his POV he will kill Rand if he gets the chance despite Ishy's command. If he was originally meant to be Taim, he had the perfect opportunity to do so on many occasions. We have Asmodean telling Rand about how strongly Demy hates Rand and Samy's POV on the subject also.

[ironisles]

Taim is holding his hand balled into a fist behind his back. Sorta like Ishy is doing.

[Orderofolde]

(Could he be Asmodean? I can't remember when he vanished)

 

Didn't he get killed by Graendal? Iirc it's explicitely mentioned that he died, then someone mentions later on that Graendal did it. A shame, he was my favorite of the Forsaken, had more personality than most of the others put together.

I just had an inspiring thought. What if Graendal didn't balefire Asmo. What if she ripped his soul out and the DO stuffed another in using his body? Maybe traveled with the corpse to SG to explain RJ's "How and Where" he died bit. We know that the DO can catch and keep a soul for later, but do we know how long he can keep a soul, or how many? Maybe he's kept one of the lesser forsaken about from the AOL he's giving another chance to. Maybe Asmo's body is being used for the new Taim, which would explain the comments. Just keeping things interesting for the coming months...

[Azrayne]

The most likely fit for you perhaps, but as evidence by the replies not so much for everyone else. That brings us squarely back to Mr Ares point of wishful thinking and refusal to admit the facts say you are wrong. A refusal that you hold to strong enough to slur a man's character.

 

It would be wishful thinking if I was hoping Taim/Dem ended up being the same person, but I don't, because it's obvious at this stage that the author(s) are heading in another direction. Drawing a conclusion from the facts isn't wishful thinking, and the facts in LOC point to RJ intended Taim to be Demandred (or at least one of the forsaken) with massive neon red arrows.

 

Even a cursory analysis of LOC strongly suggests that Taim was originally intended to be one of the Forsaken, and given the Prologue/Epilogue, Demandred is the obvious fit. There's a reason the theory was so widespread, and why there was so much confusion when other evidence started popping up to contradict it.

 

It's hardly a 'slur' to suggest than an author would change his mind, it happens all the time, and I'd be amazed if it didn't happen at least a few times in a series of such length and scope. In fact I'm amazed there hasn't been more retconning of a similar nature. I have a lot of admiration for RJ, he's one of my favorite authors, despite his flaws, and his series defined a large chunk of my teenage years. That doesn't mean I'm blind to the fact that authors aren't perfect, you can be a fan of someone and their work without thinking that they're perfect. I think you need to evaluate your own opinion of the man and his series if you're so deeply offended by the suggestion that he changed his mind about a plotline and didn't want to admit it.

 

Another interesting point:

 

Bashere took advantage of the silence. "You say you're Mazrim Taim?" He sounded doubtful, and Rand

 

looked at him in confusion. Was this Taim or not? Only a madman would claim that name if it was not his.

The prisoner's mouth quirked in what might have been the beginning of a smile, and he rubbed his chin.

"I shaved, Bashere." His voice held more than a hint of mockery. "It is hot this far south, or had you not

noticed?. Hotter than it should be, even here. Do you want proof of me? Shall I channel for you?"

 

Obviously that doesn't prove anything either way, and I'm not offering it as evidence for the retcon argument, but it certainly suggests that RJ wanted to lay the ground right from the start for Taim not being who he says he is.

 

It could just be coincidence, after all Taim and Bashere have never been said to see eachother other than across the length of a battlefield, if that (I'd imagine generals avoid getting too close to enemy channelers, for obvious reasons), but that interchange feels like it was put there for a purpose, the one person who'd be able to vouch for Taim doubting him, and Taim only offering an excuse about shaving and an offer to channel as proof.

[Rallan]

(Could he be Asmodean? I can't remember when he vanished)

 

Didn't he get killed by Graendal? Iirc it's explicitely mentioned that he died, then someone mentions later on that Graendal did it. A shame, he was my favorite of the Forsaken, had more personality than most of the others put together.

 

Yeah Azzy's toast and Robert Jordan said as much. After Moridin was introduced there were some crazy fan theories about how "death took him" might've meant that Moridin (whose name means Death) grabbed him, but that was really kinda reaching. And we don't know whether it was Graendal or not, although the last time I was a wotmaniac she was one of the strongest suspects.

[Mr Ares]

Also, do you have any support for the 15 years of channeling, or is that a guess on your part?

 

Not a guess:

 

Rand studied Taim as the man and his escort crossed the courtyard. At least fifteen yeats older than

himself; thirty-five, then, or a few years more at most. Little was known and less written of men who could

channel—it was a subject most decent people avoided—but Rand had learned what he could. Relatively few

men actually sought it out; that was one of Rand's problems. Since the Breaking, most men who channeled had

the ability born in them, ready to spring out as they grew into manhood. Some managed to keep madness at bay

for years before Aes Sedai found and gentled them; others were already hopelessly mad when found, at times

less than a year after first touching saidin. Rand had clung to sanity for close to two years, so-far. Yet in front of

him he had a man who must have managed it for ten or fifteen. That alone was worth something.

Rand's guess, not yours, but still a guess.

 

 

 

With that quote, you have to say that RJ was not telling us the truth when he said they were never the same. You are calling RJ a liar, and based on pretty scant evidence.

I guess we disagree on the meaning of 'scant evidence.'

Indeed. Everything you have is circumstantial, and doesn't address certaint problems with the Taimandred theory using just evidence from LoC itself. Oh, I'll grant you that there was a fairly strong prima facie case, but look at all the evidence and some of it was pretty shaky even then. At best, Taimandred was a possibility, it was never the near certainty that some like to make it out to be.

 

(Could he be Asmodean? I can't remember when he vanished)

 

Didn't he get killed by Graendal? Iirc it's explicitely mentioned that he died, then someone mentions later on that Graendal did it. A shame, he was my favorite of the Forsaken, had more personality than most of the others put together.

I just had an inspiring thought. What if Graendal didn't balefire Asmo. What if she ripped his soul out and the DO stuffed another in using his body? Maybe traveled with the corpse to SG to explain RJ's "How and Where" he died bit. We know that the DO can catch and keep a soul for later, but do we know how long he can keep a soul, or how many? Maybe he's kept one of the lesser forsaken about from the AOL he's giving another chance to. Maybe Asmo's body is being used for the new Taim, which would explain the comments. Just keeping things interesting for the coming months...

"HE WHO BETRAYS ME WILL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS". From LoC Prologue, quoting from memory. Taim being Asmo doesn't really fit with anything we know.

 

The most likely fit for you perhaps, but as evidence by the replies not so much for everyone else. That brings us squarely back to Mr Ares point of wishful thinking and refusal to admit the facts say you are wrong. A refusal that you hold to strong enough to slur a man's character.

 

It would be wishful thinking if I was hoping Taim/Dem ended up being the same person, but I don't, because it's obvious at this stage that the author(s) are heading in another direction. Drawing a conclusion from the facts isn't wishful thinking, and the facts in LOC point to RJ intended Taim to be Demandred (or at least one of the forsaken) with massive neon red arrows.

 

Even a cursory analysis of LOC strongly suggests that Taim was originally intended to be one of the Forsaken, and given the Prologue/Epilogue, Demandred is the obvious fit. There's a reason the theory was so widespread, and why there was so much confusion when other evidence started popping up to contradict it.

No, that is merely one possible reading of the evidence. By the same token, I could claim that RJ never intended that Moiraine be weakened by the Finns, he wanted her to have been severed, but changed his mind due to us figuring it out. It was at least as strong a theory as Taimandred. It turned out to be wrong. That is not evidence that the author changed his mind. Maybe he did, but maybe we just misread the evidence. The problem is you jump to a conclusion then insist that your conclusion must be right - and the fact that it isn't is so hard to accept that RJ must have changed his mind and lied about it. There is no way you could just be wrong, oh no.

 

 

 

It's hardly a 'slur' to suggest than an author would change his mind, it happens all the time, and I'd be amazed if it didn't happen at least a few times in a series of such length and scope.

That has nothing to do with it. RJ said he didn't plan on Taim being Demandred. It was never the plan. You say it was the plan. So either you are wrong, and it was never the plan, or you are right, and RJ was not telling the truth when he said it was never the plan. In other words, you are calling him a liar. That is what people are objecting to. Why would he be so opposed to the notion of admitting he changed his mind? It's not trying to claim RJ was a perfect specimen of humanity, a god amongst men, whose glory we must all aspire to but will never achieve. All people object to is you saying RJ is a liar, with no proof. It is a slur on his character, and it is not warranted. The most likely answer is people simply read something into certain facts that they shouldn't have done. People misinterpret evidence, they get the wrong end of the stick. It happens. That's no reason to go around insulting people, which is precisely what you're doing.

 

Another interesting point:

 

Bashere took advantage of the silence. "You say you're Mazrim Taim?" He sounded doubtful, and Rand

 

looked at him in confusion. Was this Taim or not? Only a madman would claim that name if it was not his.

The prisoner's mouth quirked in what might have been the beginning of a smile, and he rubbed his chin.

"I shaved, Bashere." His voice held more than a hint of mockery. "It is hot this far south, or had you not

noticed?. Hotter than it should be, even here. Do you want proof of me? Shall I channel for you?"

 

Obviously that doesn't prove anything either way, and I'm not offering it as evidence for the retcon argument, but it certainly suggests that RJ wanted to lay the ground right from the start for Taim not being who he says he is.

I disagree. What happens after that? He offers proof of identity. Something that not everyone knows, but that Bashere and Taim will. By offering knowledge that is not widespread, Bashere accepts him as Taim. It makes any argument about Taim not being Taim that little bit more complicated. How would an imposter know? An Illusion weave could conceal a face, although maybe they didn't get it bang on, but knowledge as well? How would Demandred know? Why is it there? To prove Taim is who he says he in, in a way that mere physical appearance couldn't. If this man isn't Taim, the imposter would need more than just a Mirror of Mists.

 

And we don't know whether it was Graendal or not, although the last time I was a wotmaniac she was one of the strongest suspects.

Actually, you're a little out of the loop. It was confirmed in ToM (in the glossary, the text itself merely offers strong hints) that Graendal was Asmo's killer.

[invictus]

I guess we disagree on the meaning of 'scant evidence.'

Scant: "Barely sufficient or adequate"

 

We have 1) accident of physiognomy (nose & mustache), 2) 3 accidents of phrasing (notably the same phrases used by Forsaken are also used by Taim), 3) 1 accident of timing (Taim & Demandred in the same book) and a bunch of other circumstantial evidence sufficient only to satisfy conspiracy theorists, a group as a whole whose willingness to swallow whole what others would choke on.

 

The rest are red herrings, the result of study, discipline and sensitivity, none of which are unknown in the world of TWoT.

 

So, your conclusion that your "overwhelming" evidence is adequate is deeply flawed. It is not "barely sufficient" and it is not "adequate". It doesn't even qualify as scant.

[Suttree]

It's hardly a 'slur' to suggest than an author would change his mind, it happens all the time, and I'd be amazed if it didn't happen at least a few times in a series of such length and scope. In fact I'm amazed there hasn't been more retconning of a similar nature. I have a lot of admiration for RJ, he's one of my favorite authors, despite his flaws, and his series defined a large chunk of my teenage years. That doesn't mean I'm blind to the fact that authors aren't perfect, you can be a fan of someone and their work without thinking that they're perfect.

 

Look mate, you are missing the point entirely. No one thinks RJ is perfect and you have to understand a couple of the posters you are debating this with have been some of the more outspoken individuals when it comes to critiquing the series. While RJ is a very good fantasy author he is not my favorite and I have long said his work does not necesarily hold up out of genre.

 

In the paragrpah above you are not only claiming RJ changed his mind, you are doing so despite the author explicitly saying he did not and further never intended for the two characters to be the same. That is calling him a liar. All of this because you refuse to believe you misinterpreted evidence.

[ShenAnCalhar]

Just to add another piece of circumstantial evidence to the mix, the one that had me convinced Taim == Demandred on my first read:

 

Straightening, he hoped there were enough; he really had not expected anywhere near so many men. "Dedicated who advance their skill far enough will be called Asha'man, and they will wear this." Taking out the small velvet bag, he held up what it contained. Sunlight sparkled on finely crafted gold and rich red enamel. A sinuous form exactly like the one on the Dragon banner. That went onto Taim's collar too, on the other side, so sword and Dragon shone at the sides of his throat. "I suppose I was the first Asha'man," Rand told the students, "but Mazrim Taim is the second." Taim's face made stone look soft; what was wrong with the man?

 

....

 

Looking at Taim, who was making no effort to hide his disdain, he stuck his hands behind his back, where they clenched into fists. Lews Therin rumbled in the distance, an echo of his anger. "What has gotten into you? You've had a burr in your breeches ever since I put those badges on you. Is it something to do with them? If so, I don't understand...."

 

We all know that Demandred's entire life is defined by being second-best to Lews Therin - swordsmanship, the One Power, military command - you name it. This line stood out as classic RJ foreshadowing, and adds to an already compelling case.

 

I throw my lot in with Azrayne, as I also theorize that Taim was originally supposed to be Demandred. By doing so, you could argue that I'm calling RJ a "liar" in the classic sense of the term, but I believe that a white lie issued in the hopes of maintaining the illusion of plot stability is the right thing to do in this scenario. The world isn't black and white, and lying isn't always a bad thing.

[Elan Tedronai]

when demandred inevitably meets his end in AMOL questions will be asked on what did this fool achieve in the span of 7 books?

 

It's sad when the only forsaken cast who caused damage to the light have been asmodean and messana

[MasterAblar]

when demandred inevitably meets his end in AMOL questions will be asked on what did this fool achieve in the span of 7 books?

 

It's sad when the only forsaken cast who caused damage to the light have been asmodean and messana

 

Ishamael? It's because of him the Seanchan are there in the first place. And he caused both the fall of Hawkwing's empire and the Trolloc War's.

[Elan Tedronai]

ishy caused his damage before the current age.

 

he has done nothing this age besides being rand al thor whipping boy thrice in the series

[Finnssss22]

ishy caused his damage before the current age.

 

he has done nothing this age besides being rand al thor whipping boy thrice in the series

 

 

You mean besides orchestrating two of the biggest events in this age like the Trolloc Wars and manipulating Hawkwing into fighting the AS, eventually culminating in the Hundred Year War. As well as getting him to send his kin across the ocean creating the Seanchan.

Of course, there's always the whole Farstrider thing and the running of the Black Ajah for at least the last 20 years.

[Suttree]

ishy caused his damage before the current age.

 

he has done nothing this age besides being rand al thor whipping boy thrice in the series

 

 

You mean besides orchestrating two of the biggest events in this age like the Trolloc Wars and manipulating Hawkwing into fighting the AS, eventually culminating in the Hundred Year War. As well as getting him to send his kin across the ocean creating the Seanchan.

Of course, there's always the whole Farstrider thing and the running of the Black Ajah for at least the last 20 years.

 

Come on now Finnssss, you know Elan never lets facts get in the way of his shit stirring...

[Finnssss22]

Come on now Finnssss, you know Elan doesn't let facts get in the way of his shit stirring...

 

Heh yeah but usually Elan has at least something based on some actual (usually minor) fact to start shit with. Just not the case here ;)

[Azrayne]

We have 1) accident of physiognomy (nose & mustache), 2) 3 accidents of phrasing (notably the same phrases used by Forsaken are also used by Taim), 3) 1 accident of timing (Taim & Demandred in the same book) and a bunch of other circumstantial evidence sufficient only to satisfy conspiracy theorists, a group as a whole whose willingness to swallow whole what others would choke on.

 

Ignore the physical characteristics, I never said that they were evidence either way, just that they were interesting.

 

Firstly, look at it from a narrative context. In the prologue, RJ creates an setup for a Demandred sup plot, namely DO giving Dem orders. In the epilogue, we have a conclusion to this sub plot, Dem goes to DO, tells him what he's done, DO is happy, so we get closure. This leaves up with a hole in the middle where the conflict in a narrative would usually go. This structure is as old as time itself, and RJ isn't ignorant enough to accidently slip a subplot with an opening and a conclusion but no story in the middle. He's providing a subplot which gives greater structure to the whole LOC book, to provide context for events that happen, so obviously there's something major happening in LOC that relates to Dem, considering that he doesn't pop up again as a POV character, iirc (certainly not anytime soon).

 

Secondly, there's nothing circumstantial about the evidence that Dem was originally one of the Forsaken. RJ foreshadows this heavily (as he does with many things, it's a favorite technique of his, which is why it's silly to ignore in this context), namely by connecting them with the Age of Legends through their dialogue and phrasing. Every single case of this occuring has indicated one of the Forsaken, before and after LOC, there's no reason, either in a narrative sense or in an interally consistent sense within the context of the story, provided for why Dem would be talking like this, except to connect him to the other Forsaken. It's not some 'slip of the keyboard' where he could have accidentally substituted one phrase for another, it's an obvious, intentional clue, and every time he used that clue, it pointed to the character being one of the Forsaken.

 

The other evidence, by itself, doesn't stand up, but on top of those other two it aligns perfectly, so you put it all together and like I said, big neon arrows. Every single piece of evidence LOC provides about Taim, points in the direction of Demandred. Unless #13 gives some mind blowing revelation about what Demandred was really up to in LOC, and what Taim's deal is, it can only be assumed that they were originally intended to be one and the same. Actions speak louder than words, and everything RJ 'wrote' says that they were originally the same character, regardless of what he 'said' later on.

[Finnssss22]

We have 1) accident of physiognomy (nose & mustache), 2) 3 accidents of phrasing (notably the same phrases used by Forsaken are also used by Taim), 3) 1 accident of timing (Taim & Demandred in the same book) and a bunch of other circumstantial evidence sufficient only to satisfy conspiracy theorists, a group as a whole whose willingness to swallow whole what others would choke on.

 

Ignore the physical characteristics, I never said that they were evidence either way, just that they were interesting.

 

Firstly, look at it from a narrative context. In the prologue, RJ creates an setup for a Demandred sup plot, namely DO giving Dem orders. In the epilogue, we have a conclusion to this sub plot, Dem goes to DO, tells him what he's done, DO is happy, so we get closure. This leaves up with a hole in the middle where the conflict in a narrative would usually go. This structure is as old as time itself, and RJ isn't ignorant enough to accidently slip a subplot with an opening and a conclusion but no story in the middle. He's providing a subplot which gives greater structure to the whole LOC book, to provide context for events that happen, so obviously there's something major happening in LOC that relates to Dem, considering that he doesn't pop up again as a POV character, iirc (certainly not anytime soon).

 

Secondly, there's nothing circumstantial about the evidence that Dem was originally one of the Forsaken. RJ foreshadows this heavily (as he does with many things, it's a favorite technique of his, which is why it's silly to ignore in this context), namely by connecting them with the Age of Legends through their dialogue and phrasing. Every single case of this occuring has indicated one of the Forsaken, before and after LOC, there's no reason, either in a narrative sense or in an interally consistent sense within the context of the story, provided for why Dem would be talking like this, except to connect him to the other Forsaken. It's not some 'slip of the keyboard' where he could have accidentally substituted one phrase for another, it's an obvious, intentional clue, and every time he used that clue, it pointed to the character being one of the Forsaken.

 

The other evidence, by itself, doesn't stand up, but on top of those other two it aligns perfectly, so you put it all together and like I said, big neon arrows. Every single piece of evidence LOC provides about Taim, points in the direction of Demandred. Unless #13 gives some mind blowing revelation about what Demandred was really up to in LOC, and what Taim's deal is, it can only be assumed that they were originally intended to be one and the same. Actions speak louder than words, and everything RJ 'wrote' says that they were originally the same character, regardless of what he 'said' later on.

 

RJ didn't come right out and say that Taim is not Demandred until after book 10 and he only did so because he had already written the evidence of it multiple times in Winter's Heart.

Namely, from Kisman's PoV chpt 22 and then from Demandred's PoV in chpt 35.

[UncleButcher1980]

We have 1) accident of physiognomy (nose & mustache), 2) 3 accidents of phrasing (notably the same phrases used by Forsaken are also used by Taim), 3) 1 accident of timing (Taim & Demandred in the same book) and a bunch of other circumstantial evidence sufficient only to satisfy conspiracy theorists, a group as a whole whose willingness to swallow whole what others would choke on.

 

Ignore the physical characteristics, I never said that they were evidence either way, just that they were interesting.

 

Firstly, look at it from a narrative context. In the prologue, RJ creates an setup for a Demandred sup plot, namely DO giving Dem orders. In the epilogue, we have a conclusion to this sub plot, Dem goes to DO, tells him what he's done, DO is happy, so we get closure. This leaves up with a hole in the middle where the conflict in a narrative would usually go. This structure is as old as time itself, and RJ isn't ignorant enough to accidently slip a subplot with an opening and a conclusion but no story in the middle. He's providing a subplot which gives greater structure to the whole LOC book, to provide context for events that happen, so obviously there's something major happening in LOC that relates to Dem, considering that he doesn't pop up again as a POV character, iirc (certainly not anytime soon).

 

Secondly, there's nothing circumstantial about the evidence that Dem was originally one of the Forsaken. RJ foreshadows this heavily (as he does with many things, it's a favorite technique of his, which is why it's silly to ignore in this context), namely by connecting them with the Age of Legends through their dialogue and phrasing. Every single case of this occuring has indicated one of the Forsaken, before and after LOC, there's no reason, either in a narrative sense or in an interally consistent sense within the context of the story, provided for why Dem would be talking like this, except to connect him to the other Forsaken. It's not some 'slip of the keyboard' where he could have accidentally substituted one phrase for another, it's an obvious, intentional clue, and every time he used that clue, it pointed to the character being one of the Forsaken.

 

The other evidence, by itself, doesn't stand up, but on top of those other two it aligns perfectly, so you put it all together and like I said, big neon arrows. Every single piece of evidence LOC provides about Taim, points in the direction of Demandred. Unless #13 gives some mind blowing revelation about what Demandred was really up to in LOC, and what Taim's deal is, it can only be assumed that they were originally intended to be one and the same. Actions speak louder than words, and everything RJ 'wrote' says that they were originally the same character, regardless of what he 'said' later on.

 

 

But again, while everything you mention could suggest Taim is or has a connection with a Forsaken, there is nothing specific with Demandred. Indeed, I think Moridin is the only person to have used that phrase 'so called Aiel' in the books. All you have really is Demandred popping up in the prologue and epilogue.

[Mr Ares]

We have 1) accident of physiognomy (nose & mustache), 2) 3 accidents of phrasing (notably the same phrases used by Forsaken are also used by Taim), 3) 1 accident of timing (Taim & Demandred in the same book) and a bunch of other circumstantial evidence sufficient only to satisfy conspiracy theorists, a group as a whole whose willingness to swallow whole what others would choke on.

 

Ignore the physical characteristics, I never said that they were evidence either way, just that they were interesting.

 

Firstly, look at it from a narrative context. In the prologue, RJ creates an setup for a Demandred sup plot, namely DO giving Dem orders. In the epilogue, we have a conclusion to this sub plot, Dem goes to DO, tells him what he's done, DO is happy, so we get closure. This leaves up with a hole in the middle where the conflict in a narrative would usually go. This structure is as old as time itself, and RJ isn't ignorant enough to accidently slip a subplot with an opening and a conclusion but no story in the middle. He's providing a subplot which gives greater structure to the whole LOC book, to provide context for events that happen, so obviously there's something major happening in LOC that relates to Dem, considering that he doesn't pop up again as a POV character, iirc (certainly not anytime soon).

 

Secondly, there's nothing circumstantial about the evidence that Dem was originally one of the Forsaken. RJ foreshadows this heavily (as he does with many things, it's a favorite technique of his, which is why it's silly to ignore in this context), namely by connecting them with the Age of Legends through their dialogue and phrasing. Every single case of this occuring has indicated one of the Forsaken, before and after LOC, there's no reason, either in a narrative sense or in an interally consistent sense within the context of the story, provided for why Dem would be talking like this, except to connect him to the other Forsaken. It's not some 'slip of the keyboard' where he could have accidentally substituted one phrase for another, it's an obvious, intentional clue, and every time he used that clue, it pointed to the character being one of the Forsaken.

 

The other evidence, by itself, doesn't stand up, but on top of those other two it aligns perfectly, so you put it all together and like I said, big neon arrows. Every single piece of evidence LOC provides about Taim, points in the direction of Demandred. Unless #13 gives some mind blowing revelation about what Demandred was really up to in LOC, and what Taim's deal is, it can only be assumed that they were originally intended to be one and the same. Actions speak louder than words, and everything RJ 'wrote' says that they were originally the same character, regardless of what he 'said' later on.

Firstly, there is evidence in LoC to say Taim is not Demandred. I already provided it. Secondly, what you have is weak and circumstantial. If Demandred is Taim, then what did he achieve in this book? He gave Rand an army. Great move, Shadow. That'll stop the Dragon for sure. What you have is: Demandred should be doing something in this book (fine), and Taim has some oddities, which are not Demandred specific. That's part of the problem - why can't RJ be setting up Taim as an AoLer other than Demandred? Hardly flashing neon arrows. I accept it was a possible conclusion, but it was never a sure thing. The evidence even then could be taken to mean other things. What RJ wrote then left open the possibility of them being the same, although certain evidence weighs rather heavily against it. Also, we learn in ACoS, I believe (if it wasn't, it would have been LoC itself), that Demandred always liked using proxies. So he must have changed his mind pretty damn fast if in the very next book he is giving us further clues to suggest that hanging around Rand does not fit Demandred's usual MO. If even the evidence in LoC can be taken to mean other things, I'd say that accusing the author of being a liar is rather bad form. Maybe he was lying, but I would rather just take him at his word.

[Azrayne]

But again, while everything you mention could suggest Taim is or has a connection with a Forsaken, there is nothing specific with Demandred. Indeed, I think Moridin is the only person to have used that phrase 'so called Aiel' in the books. All you have really is Demandred popping up in the prologue and epilogue.

 

Graendal and Sammael at least have both used either 'so called Aiel' or 'so called Aes Sedai' or similar comments, iirc. I think Asmodean did too. It's certainly not just Moridin.

 

Edit: Just did a quick search for 'so called.' Got Moridin, Moghedian, Lanfear, Osan'gar. And more to the point, no one else, except Taim. There are various slight rewordings 'those who pass for Aes Sedai these days' etc. but I cbf looking them up.

 

All you have really is Demandred popping up in the prologue and epilogue.

 

It's not just 'him popping up.' He's given the beginning and ending of a sub plot, so logically there has to be something to go into the middle.

 

On top of that, a lot of the secondary evidence points towards Dem. The way he reacts to Rand, especially that 'second' comment ShenAnCalhar else pointed out.

 

Nevermind that all of the male forsaken are accounted for at that stage iirc.

 

Secondly, what you have is weak and circumstantial. If Demandred is Taim, then what did he achieve in this book? He gave Rand an army. Great move, Shadow. That'll stop the Dragon for sure.

 

What did he do? He got close to Rand, was put in direct and fairly autonomous control of the only group of male channelers in the world, which would go on to become one of Rand's most powerful weapons. That's a massive score for team evil, and I'm sure DO would be pretty stoked by it.

 

Maybe he was lying, but I would rather just take him at his word.

 

 

 

And that's the problem, you'd rather just follow blindly with what RJ said than think critically about the situation. Which is fine, you're welcome to think whatever you want, but wanting something to be right isn't an argument 'for' it being right.

[Finnssss22]

And that's the problem, you'd rather just follow blindly with what RJ said than think critically about the situation. Which is fine, you're welcome to think whatever you want, but wanting something to be right isn't an argument 'for' it being right.

 

And all you have to do is come up with a credible explanation for:

A) Why Demandred didn't recognize Flinn at the cleansing. He was only the very first Asha'man after all.

B) Why Kisman is given the same but separate orders from Moridin, Taim AND Demandred.

 

It's not just about what RJ said and furthermore, I am willing to bet he only finally relented on the subject because he had already written the evidence to it that I listed above.

[Azrayne]

And that's the problem, you'd rather just follow blindly with what RJ said than think critically about the situation. Which is fine, you're welcome to think whatever you want, but wanting something to be right isn't an argument 'for' it being right.

 

And all you have to do is come up with a credible explanation for:

A) Why Demandred didn't recognize Flinn at the cleansing. He was only the very first Asha'man after all.

B) Why Kisman is given the same but separate orders from Moridin, Taim AND Demandred.

 

It's not just about what RJ said and furthermore, I am willing to bet he only finally relented on the subject because he had already written the evidence to it that I listed above.

 

Uhm, I think you missed the discussion we're having here. I know Taim and Demandred aren't the same person as of later books in the series, that's obvious.

 

The argument I'm making is that they were originally intended to be the same person, and that Jordan changed his mind sometimes after releasing book 6.

[Rallan]

And that's the problem, you'd rather just follow blindly with what RJ said than think critically about the situation. Which is fine, you're welcome to think whatever you want, but wanting something to be right isn't an argument 'for' it being right.

 

And all you have to do is come up with a credible explanation for:

A) Why Demandred didn't recognize Flinn at the cleansing. He was only the very first Asha'man after all.

B) Why Kisman is given the same but separate orders from Moridin, Taim AND Demandred.

 

It's not just about what RJ said and furthermore, I am willing to bet he only finally relented on the subject because he had already written the evidence to it that I listed above.

 

The Flinn thing I can't recall, but the thing with Kisman's instructions came a long time after LoC. So if Jordan changed his mind about the Taim=Demandred thing*, it would've been something that came a long time after he changed his mind and was thrown in to confirm the new Taim Is Not Demandred state of affairs. It's a good piece of evidence that Taim and Demandred aren't the same person, but it's not a good piece of evidence that Jordan always intended them to be seperate people.

 

* Note that I don't have a dog in this fight. The idea that Taim was originally meant to be Demandred's secret identity, and that Jordan changed his mind because he came up with something else is hella plausible (especially since all the main evidence against the Taimandred theory didn't start coming out until after LoC), and it's got added weight because it seemed very obvious to a lot of plans at the time, and evidence againstit only came out in dribs and drabs in later books. The idea that Taim was always meant to be a badass in his own right and that Taimandred was just a silly fan theory is also hella plausible though, because god knows we have collectively come up with some wierd theories with very little evidence over the years, and some of them have become very popular among the fan community.

 

Personally, I'm sticking by my Weiramondred theory. Apparently it's been shot down in spades more than once, but gosh darn it I INVENTED that damn theory, and I stuck by it before it was cool :)

[Elan Tedronai]

ishy caused his damage before the current age.

 

he has done nothing this age besides being rand al thor whipping boy thrice in the series

 

 

You mean besides orchestrating two of the biggest events in this age like the Trolloc Wars and manipulating Hawkwing into fighting the AS, eventually culminating in the Hundred Year War. As well as getting him to send his kin across the ocean creating the Seanchan.

Of course, there's always the whole Farstrider thing and the running of the Black Ajah for at least the last 20 years.

 

 

big freakin deal. past endevaours means nothing this age. Aginor created trollocs, fades and gholams before. His creations are still here this age. one of them caused a huge setback when fel was killed. but nothing was dented or caused upset by aginor's direct actions so far in this age. ishy has been useless this age and that's all there is to it. He's supposed to be the most powerful smartest of all forsaken and yet asmo and messana the two weaker of the chosen were the ones who caused a huge rift in the current age

 

 

He has done nothing absolutely nothing this age. He is living on past glories. Much like me on these forums these days

[Suttree]

Edit: Just did a quick search for 'so called.' Got Moridin, Moghedian, Lanfear, Osan'gar. And more to the point, no one else, except Taim. There are various slight rewordings 'those who pass for Aes Sedai these days' etc. but I cbf looking them up.

 

Funny, what did you use to search? Ideal Seek has Nial using so called in TDR and I only spent 10 seconds searching. Guess he was someone in disguise?