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Another Demandred topic


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Just finished my re-read of Lord of Chaos and i noticed a few lines right at the end of the book, literally the last four lines and i figure that seeing as we're all waiting for jan 8 we made as well hash out to the best of our abilities various concepts and theories that have yet to be explained but which may help fill in the time and keep our appetite's for new reading sated for the time being. (i couldn't find any other posts that mentioned this, however if anyone knows of any could you link please) I beleive that by examining the events that occured during this time frame we could ponder out where exactly demandred is dipping his fingers in.

 

From Demandred's perspective we see that he has made another trip to communicate with the Dark One, the lines are:

 

'Demandred knelt in the Pit of Doom, and for once he did not care that Shaidar Haran watched his trembling with that eyeless, impassive gaze. "Have i done well, Great Lord?"

The Great Lord's laughter filled Demandred's head.

 

Now, we know that the Chosen were told to spread chaos and such, so the sort of question and theory i'd like to discuss is to the best of everyone's knowledge, what event's unfurled during this time period(beginning of LoC to the end of LoC) that we may have heard about in passing or through one of the character's pov that could have been demandred following the DO's orders that then could lead to Demandred asking for confirmation and approval of his deeds, and as far as we see, the Dark One not punishing him.

 

Of the top of my head at 2am the events that occurred(in no particular order) during LoC are:

 

1)Rand being bonded

2)Taim 'swearing' to Rand

3)Taim being installed as the Black Tower's leader

4)Rand's capture

5)Detriorating relationship between rand and aes sedai and the White tower and little tower aes sedai

6)We can assume the Seanchan is get their thing's together as their invasion begins (again) within the next 2 books

 

So what do you guys reckon guys, what's this elusive fellow been up to?

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One of the popular theorys that I subscribe to is Demandred is off in another as-yet-to-be-revealed land gathering his forces. I presume Shara, but I have to admit the evidence for it is as tenuous as anywhere else people have put forward. Another theory is that Demandred is wandering the world balefiring random towns and vilages, thus putting additional strain on the Pattern. The implication that the Dark One wanted Demandred to use balefire in his service kind of suports this theory. From a strategic point of view, having the Dragon and the world focused on fighting the battle of hoards of trollocs with sword and spear while your #1 guy is off winning the WAR by degrading the Pattern itself is a mighty tempting possibility.

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Of all the Forsaken, Demandred is kept the most secretive by Moridin.

 

We know Moghedin operated and influence around in a few states in the continent such as Ebou Duar, Asmoden in Ruduin, Grandel in Illian, Messana in Tar Valon, Moridin through Slayer in the black tower, Rahvin in Andor, Semihage specifically with SeanChan forces, with Lanfear a free agent to wander around.

 

Each of the Chosen had specific tasks, to build up their support base, rapport and control. Seldom does it over-lap for management. The Dark One through Moridin, at least, do attempt to have some form of control over the chao and destruction aims.

 

Thus, there leaves only the borderland army in question.

 

Demandred had been known to be a military minded one track person. It would be doubtful if he behaves in the manner such as Lanfear, flirting from one region to another. That role is reserved for the Nablis - Moridin, the commander in chief. Forsaken need not be kings to influence decisions, as Semihage with the Seanchans had proven.

 

Therefore, the best guess is that Demandred is influencing the borderland armies. It was surprising to many that the armies would abandon their post for centuries just to seek out Rand, when they had never done so for the numerous false dragon reborns. It would take sterner stuff such as Compulsion to make those leaders take their troops away for months on end just to slap Rand's face to prove an ancient prophecy.

 

Thus, be prepared for surprises from the borderland armies, either in the fields of Merrilor, or at the expanse of fields in the Last Battle. It will either be Demandred's shining moment of glory or everlasting shame of failure there.

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Therefore, the best guess is that Demandred is influencing the borderland armies. It was surprising to many that the armies would abandon their post for centuries just to seek out Rand, when they had never done so for the numerous false dragon reborns. It would take sterner stuff such as Compulsion to make those leaders take their troops away for months on end just to slap Rand's face to prove an ancient prophecy.

 

Thus, be prepared for surprises from the borderland armies, either in the fields of Merrilor, or at the expanse of fields in the Last Battle. It will either be Demandred's shining moment of glory or everlasting shame of failure there.

 

I suppose it is possible. By far the most popular theory however has Demy masquerading as King Roedran in Murandy. It would explain his sudden change from a dissolute ruler to a sharp minded tactician. There is also the pipe he gave Talmanes which could match the smoking pipe viewing.

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Can you elaborate about the "smoking pipe viewing"? I forget about that

 

From ToM

She normally ignored those, but she couldn't do so now. An open cavern, gaping like a mouth. Bloodstained rocks. Two dead men on the ground, surrounded by ranks and ranks of Trollocs, a pipe with smoke curling from it.

 

The pipe giving to Talmanes could be some sort of "finder" weave, not sure how the viewing fits but it is one possible connection.

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I'd bet my right hand that Taim and Demandred were one and the same when LOC was first written. All of the evidence points to it, even without the dead give away of using Age of Legends terminology 'so-called Aiel, severing, etc). RJ must have changed his mind at some stage and decided to make them separate characters, thus why there's so much confusion on the issue.

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I'd bet my right hand that Taim and Demandred were one and the same when LOC was first written. All of the evidence points to it, even without the dead give away of using Age of Legends terminology 'so-called Aiel, severing, etc). RJ must have changed his mind at some stage and decided to make them separate characters, thus why there's so much confusion on the issue.

 

Actually RJ stated flat out they were never intended to be the same. Most of us prefer not to call him a lier. To insinuate that RJ would chnage a major plot point because the smallest sliver of his overall fan base guessed it out is ludicrous.

 

This has been discussed to death and the fact that many of the similarities are superficial and not even especially unique has been proven time and time again. The third age terminology as evidence is particalrly weak as it points to him being a minion who is imitating his betters as much as anything.

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Authors change their minds about plot points all the time, it's not an insult to point that out. I never said anything about why he chose to or called him a lier, just that Taim 100% comes off as Demandred in every way until suddenly, he isn't. RJ wouldn't drop all those hints, then do a 180 and so vocally state that it's not the case, unless he changed his mind. If he was trying to mislead the readers he's keep quiet on the subject, and the whole 'trying to imitate his betters' feels a lot more like a retcon than an explanation.

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Authors change their minds about plot points all the time, it's not an insult to point that out. I never said anything about why he chose to or called him a lier, just that Taim 100% comes off as Demandred in every way until suddenly, he isn't. RJ wouldn't drop all those hints, then do a 180 and so vocally state that it's not the case, unless he changed his mind. If he was trying to mislead the readers he's keep quiet on the subject, and the whole 'trying to imitate his betters' feels a lot more like a retcon than an explanation.

 

Once again RJ said they never were intended to be the same. He was suprised by everyone connecting the two.

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Authors change their minds about plot points all the time, it's not an insult to point that out. I never said anything about why he chose to or called him a lier, just that Taim 100% comes off as Demandred in every way until suddenly, he isn't. RJ wouldn't drop all those hints, then do a 180 and so vocally state that it's not the case, unless he changed his mind. If he was trying to mislead the readers he's keep quiet on the subject, and the whole 'trying to imitate his betters' feels a lot more like a retcon than an explanation.

 

Once again RJ said they never were intended to be the same. He was suprised by everyone connecting the two.

 

Why would he admit to changing such an important plot point? Admitting it would hurt his credibility with his fanbase and make them doubt other aspects of the story that might be vulnerable to retconning. The best decision for him to make was to claim that they were never the same individual. Authors like to present an infallible face, they want people to think they have every last detail mapped out in their head, so they don't like to admit it when they have to change something major somewhere down the road. Afterall, nobody could prove him wrong, except to claim that the original conclusion made more sense to the new, retconned one. In this particular case it's so obvious that I'm amazed he actually changed it.

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Authors change their minds about plot points all the time, it's not an insult to point that out. I never said anything about why he chose to or called him a lier, just that Taim 100% comes off as Demandred in every way until suddenly, he isn't. RJ wouldn't drop all those hints, then do a 180 and so vocally state that it's not the case, unless he changed his mind. If he was trying to mislead the readers he's keep quiet on the subject, and the whole 'trying to imitate his betters' feels a lot more like a retcon than an explanation.

 

Once again RJ said they never were intended to be the same. He was suprised by everyone connecting the two.

 

Why would he admit to changing such an important plot point? Admitting it would hurt his credibility with his fanbase and make them doubt other aspects of the story that might be vulnerable to retconning. The best decision for him to make was to claim that they were never the same individual. Authors like to present an infallible face, they want people to think they have every last detail mapped out in their head, so they don't like to admit it when they have to change something major somewhere down the road. Afterall, nobody could prove him wrong, except to claim that the original conclusion made more sense to the new, retconned one. In this particular case it's so obvious that I'm amazed he actually changed it.

 

Which bring us back to my original point that most of us choose to take him at his word instead of calling him a liar. The reasons as to why the evidence could mean various things have been provided a number of times in older threads.

Edited by Suttree
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Authors change their minds about plot points all the time, it's not an insult to point that out. I never said anything about why he chose to or called him a lier, just that Taim 100% comes off as Demandred in every way until suddenly, he isn't. RJ wouldn't drop all those hints, then do a 180 and so vocally state that it's not the case, unless he changed his mind. If he was trying to mislead the readers he's keep quiet on the subject, and the whole 'trying to imitate his betters' feels a lot more like a retcon than an explanation.

 

Once again RJ said they never were intended to be the same. He was suprised by everyone connecting the two.

 

Why would he admit to changing such an important plot point? Admitting it would hurt his credibility with his fanbase and make them doubt other aspects of the story that might be vulnerable to retconning. The best decision for him to make was to claim that they were never the same individual. Authors like to present an infallible face, they want people to think they have every last detail mapped out in their head, so they don't like to admit it when they have to change something major somewhere down the road. Afterall, nobody could prove him wrong, except to claim that the original conclusion made more sense to the new, retconned one. In this particular case it's so obvious that I'm amazed he actually changed it.

I think a better question than why would he admit it is why would he keep it secret? It's hardly damaging to his credibility in any meaningful sense to say that he had plans which he later changed, or that he didn't map out all of the details, both of which we know to be true anyway. Taimandred is unique in this respect - the author just had to change things, but couldn't possibly stand people knowing that he made this change, and so lied to everyone. Taimandred is the only instance in which RJ feels the need for this infallible face. Why would he do that? Is this really credible, or is it more likely that some people just refuse to let go of a debunked theory? Even if we just take LoC, the evidence there is highly subjective and open to interpretation. Taim's first appearance has him anger Bashere with knowledge only Mazrim Taim would know - which surely counts against him being Demandred. The theory is damaged right from the off by one of the points cited in its favour. We have absolutely no reason to believe that RJ changed his mind, it is utterly ludicrous to suggest that he did, and amounts to nothing more than wishful thinking and a refusal to accept that the facts say you are wrong. Edited by Mr Ares
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I've never understood the Taim is Demandred theory. Quite apart from the fact that Robert Jordan said he wasn't, what is the actual evidence people have for it?

 

Taim first pops up in LOC prologue, DO orders him to spread chaos.

 

Then later in the book, Taim arrives at Caemlyn to take advantage of Rand's amnesty. He's arrogant, he hates Rand, Lews Therin goes even crazier around him than he does around other Asha'man/channelers. He's been channeling for 15 years without any symptoms of decay or madness. He also seems to know things that are, at the least, unlikely, to make sense for someone self trained, ie. how to test other men for channeling.

 

On top of that, he used phrases that have, in the whole series, only ever been seen in the Forsaken. 'So called Aiel,' 'those who pass for Aes Sedai now' (can't remember the exact phrasing), also refers to gentling/stilling as severing, an archaic mode not widely known in the present time.

 

Finally, in the prologue, he returns to the DO, says 'have I not done well?' DO laughs.

 

It's pretty heavy evidence. Demandred 'just' happens to get 2 POV segments in the same book that Taim shows up? Those POV's feel really out of place if Demandred doesn't do anything for the whole book. Taim has been channeling 15 years without any negative symptoms? Taim uses terminology otherwise exclusively found in the other Forsaken?

 

No single piece of that evidence by itself is enough, but all of it together is pretty conclusive. It blew my mind a bit when I found out that he'd changed it, and blew my mind even more when I saw tons of people refusing to admit that it had been retconned.

 

Either RJ orginally intended for Taim to be Demandred, or he wanted us to think that he was. But if he just wanted us to think it, why would he tell us he isn't?

 

It seems pretty straight forward. Authors do change their mind about these things, that's why the term 'retcon' was invented. It's not an insult, or some kind of slur on the author. But for some reason people get really, really worked up about it, like suggesting that if RJ didn't have every tiny detail mapped out in his head is some kind of blasphemy.

 

Unless the answer to what Taim's deal really is is some kind of mind blowing revelation, I'm going to stick with the retcon theory. It makes much more sense than anything else, despite how much it upsets a certain type of fan.

Edited by Azrayne
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I've never understood the Taim is Demandred theory. Quite apart from the fact that Robert Jordan said he wasn't, what is the actual evidence people have for it?

 

Taim first pops up in LOC prologue, DO orders him to spread chaos.

 

Then later in the book, Taim arrives at Caemlyn to take advantage of Rand's amnesty. He's arrogant, he hates Rand, Lews Therin goes even crazier around him than he does around other Asha'man/channelers. He's been channeling for 15 years without any symptoms of decay or madness. He also seems to know things that are, at the least, unlikely, to make sense for someone self trained, ie. how to test other men for channeling.

 

On top of that, he used phrases that have, in the whole series, only ever been seen in the Forsaken. 'So called Aiel,' 'those who pass for Aes Sedai now' (can't remember the exact phrasing), also refers to gentling/stilling as severing, an archaic mode not widely known in the present time.

 

Finally, in the prologue, he returns to the DO, says 'have I not done well?' DO laughs.

 

It's pretty heavy evidence. Demandred 'just' happens to get 2 POV segments in the same book that Taim shows up? Those POV's feel really out of place if Demandred doesn't do anything for the whole book. Taim has been channeling 15 years without any negative symptoms? Taim uses terminology otherwise exclusively found in the other Forsaken?

Heavy evidence? Well, it is fairly indicative, but it is a long way from conclusive. Taim is odd and Demandred does something in the book that Taim first appears in. That's not a lot, all told. Maybe not even as much as Semi/Anath. And let us not forget that it still doesn't address the hole in the theory that Taim knows something Demandred would be unlikely to. Also, do you have any support for the 15 years of channeling, or is that a guess on your part?

 

Either RJ orginally intended for Taim to be Demandred, or he wanted us to think that he was. But if he just wanted us to think it, why would he tell us he isn't?

 

It seems pretty straight forward. Authors do change their mind about these things, that's why the term 'retcon' was invented. It's not an insult, or some kind of slur on the author. But for some reason people get really, really worked up about it, like suggesting that if RJ didn't have every tiny detail mapped out in his head is some kind of blasphemy.

You're ignoring the problem. RJ says Taim is not Demandred. Fine, but RJ also says he wasn't intended to be. Without that last, RJ changing his mind is a possible, though unsupported, theory. With that quote, you have to say that RJ was not telling us the truth when he said they were never the same. You are calling RJ a liar, and based on pretty scant evidence. RJ has talked about some changes that were made from his initial vision, and that he didn't always have all the details in mind. No-one has a problem or considers it blasphemy. What people object to is your slur on his character, which is frankly low and uncalled for. Saying he changed his mind is not the problem, saying he lied is. RJ said Taim was never intended to be Demandred. Either this is true, and you are wrong, or you are calling him a liar.
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Also, do you have any support for the 15 years of channeling, or is that a guess on your part?

 

Not a guess:

 

Rand studied Taim as the man and his escort crossed the courtyard. At least fifteen yeats older than

himself; thirty-five, then, or a few years more at most. Little was known and less written of men who could

channel—it was a subject most decent people avoided—but Rand had learned what he could. Relatively few

men actually sought it out; that was one of Rand's problems. Since the Breaking, most men who channeled had

the ability born in them, ready to spring out as they grew into manhood. Some managed to keep madness at bay

for years before Aes Sedai found and gentled them; others were already hopelessly mad when found, at times

less than a year after first touching saidin. Rand had clung to sanity for close to two years, so-far. Yet in front of

him he had a man who must have managed it for ten or fifteen. That alone was worth something.

 

With that quote, you have to say that RJ was not telling us the truth when he said they were never the same. You are calling RJ a liar, and based on pretty scant evidence.

 

I guess we disagree on the meaning of 'scant evidence.'

Edited by Azrayne
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I agree with Azrayne. His argument makes sense. Until we find out the truth about Taim (Could he be Asmodean? I can't remember when he vanished) then I'll go with the fact hes either another age of legends channeller or was supposed to be Demandred.

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(Could he be Asmodean? I can't remember when he vanished)

 

Didn't he get killed by Graendal? Iirc it's explicitely mentioned that he died, then someone mentions later on that Graendal did it. A shame, he was my favorite of the Forsaken, had more personality than most of the others put together.

Edited by Azrayne
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I've never understood the Taim is Demandred theory. Quite apart from the fact that Robert Jordan said he wasn't, what is the actual evidence people have for it?

 

Taim first pops up in LOC prologue, DO orders him to spread chaos.

 

Then later in the book, Taim arrives at Caemlyn to take advantage of Rand's amnesty. He's arrogant, he hates Rand, Lews Therin goes even crazier around him than he does around other Asha'man/channelers. He's been channeling for 15 years without any symptoms of decay or madness. He also seems to know things that are, at the least, unlikely, to make sense for someone self trained, ie. how to test other men for channeling.

 

On top of that, he used phrases that have, in the whole series, only ever been seen in the Forsaken. 'So called Aiel,' 'those who pass for Aes Sedai now' (can't remember the exact phrasing), also refers to gentling/stilling as severing, an archaic mode not widely known in the present time.

 

Finally, in the prologue, he returns to the DO, says 'have I not done well?' DO laughs.

 

It's pretty heavy evidence. Demandred 'just' happens to get 2 POV segments in the same book that Taim shows up? Those POV's feel really out of place if Demandred doesn't do anything for the whole book. Taim has been channeling 15 years without any negative symptoms? Taim uses terminology otherwise exclusively found in the other Forsaken?

 

No single piece of that evidence by itself is enough, but all of it together is pretty conclusive. It blew my mind a bit when I found out that he'd changed it, and blew my mind even more when I saw tons of people refusing to admit that it had been retconned.

 

Either RJ orginally intended for Taim to be Demandred, or he wanted us to think that he was. But if he just wanted us to think it, why would he tell us he isn't?

 

It seems pretty straight forward. Authors do change their mind about these things, that's why the term 'retcon' was invented. It's not an insult, or some kind of slur on the author. But for some reason people get really, really worked up about it, like suggesting that if RJ didn't have every tiny detail mapped out in his head is some kind of blasphemy.

 

Unless the answer to what Taim's deal really is is some kind of mind blowing revelation, I'm going to stick with the retcon theory. It makes much more sense than anything else, despite how much it upsets a certain type of fan.

 

That's pretty flimsy evidence. You could also use all that about the phrases he uses and knowledge he has and channeling for fifteen years without going mad as evidence he is Moridin. There's plenty that suggests Taim is not what he seems but what specifically points to him being Demandred?

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I've never understood the Taim is Demandred theory. Quite apart from the fact that Robert Jordan said he wasn't, what is the actual evidence people have for it?

 

Taim first pops up in LOC prologue, DO orders him to spread chaos.

 

Then later in the book, Taim arrives at Caemlyn to take advantage of Rand's amnesty. He's arrogant, he hates Rand, Lews Therin goes even crazier around him than he does around other Asha'man/channelers. He's been channeling for 15 years without any symptoms of decay or madness. He also seems to know things that are, at the least, unlikely, to make sense for someone self trained, ie. how to test other men for channeling.

 

On top of that, he used phrases that have, in the whole series, only ever been seen in the Forsaken. 'So called Aiel,' 'those who pass for Aes Sedai now' (can't remember the exact phrasing), also refers to gentling/stilling as severing, an archaic mode not widely known in the present time.

 

Finally, in the prologue, he returns to the DO, says 'have I not done well?' DO laughs.

 

It's pretty heavy evidence. Demandred 'just' happens to get 2 POV segments in the same book that Taim shows up? Those POV's feel really out of place if Demandred doesn't do anything for the whole book. Taim has been channeling 15 years without any negative symptoms? Taim uses terminology otherwise exclusively found in the other Forsaken?

 

No single piece of that evidence by itself is enough, but all of it together is pretty conclusive. It blew my mind a bit when I found out that he'd changed it, and blew my mind even more when I saw tons of people refusing to admit that it had been retconned.

 

Either RJ orginally intended for Taim to be Demandred, or he wanted us to think that he was. But if he just wanted us to think it, why would he tell us he isn't?

 

It seems pretty straight forward. Authors do change their mind about these things, that's why the term 'retcon' was invented. It's not an insult, or some kind of slur on the author. But for some reason people get really, really worked up about it, like suggesting that if RJ didn't have every tiny detail mapped out in his head is some kind of blasphemy.

 

Unless the answer to what Taim's deal really is is some kind of mind blowing revelation, I'm going to stick with the retcon theory. It makes much more sense than anything else, despite how much it upsets a certain type of fan.

 

That's pretty flimsy evidence. You could also use all that about the phrases he uses and knowledge he has and channeling for fifteen years without going mad as evidence he is Moridin. There's plenty that suggests Taim is not what he seems but what specifically points to him being Demandred?

 

He's the most likely fit of the bunch. The evidence clearly points to a link to the Age of Legends, which points to Forsaken, and Demandred is the one who's introduced via POV in the prologue, then given another POV in the epilogue. Putting him in both of them suggests a greater involvement with the overall plot of the book.

Edited by Azrayne
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Also, do you have any support for the 15 years of channeling, or is that a guess on your part?

 

Not a guess:

 

Rand studied Taim as the man and his escort crossed the courtyard. At least fifteen yeats older than

himself; thirty-five, then, or a few years more at most. Little was known and less written of men who could

channel—it was a subject most decent people avoided—but Rand had learned what he could. Relatively few

men actually sought it out; that was one of Rand's problems. Since the Breaking, most men who channeled had

the ability born in them, ready to spring out as they grew into manhood. Some managed to keep madness at bay

for years before Aes Sedai found and gentled them; others were already hopelessly mad when found, at times

less than a year after first touching saidin. Rand had clung to sanity for close to two years, so-far. Yet in front of

him he had a man who must have managed it for ten or fifteen. That alone was worth something.

 

With that quote, you have to say that RJ was not telling us the truth when he said they were never the same. You are calling RJ a liar, and based on pretty scant evidence.

 

I guess we disagree on the meaning of 'scant evidence.'

 

Taim has not been channeling for fifteen years. Rand made an assumption based on Taim's worn appearence, and he was mistaken.

 

Interview: Sep 3rd, 2005

 

DragonCon Signing Reports - Matt Hatch (Verbatim)

Ted Herman

 

How old is Taim and has he slowed?

Robert Jordan

 

Taim has slowed, but one thing I am not going to reveal it in the books, so I'll tell you, men slow later than women do. And yes, he has slowed, and he is in his late twenties, yes his late twenties.

 

Interview: Oct 4th, 2005

 

Robert Jordan's Blog: ONE MORE TIME

 

 

Robert Jordan

 

 

For Linda Sedai, Rand misjudges Taim's age because when they meet, you might say Taim has been rode hard and put away wet. He has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn, the one place where he might find refuge instead of being hunted—along with other reasons—and that has a wearing effect on anyone. Now that he has recovered, he doesn't look so old.

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Also, do you have any support for the 15 years of channeling, or is that a guess on your part?

 

Not a guess:

 

Rand studied Taim as the man and his escort crossed the courtyard. At least fifteen yeats older than

himself; thirty-five, then, or a few years more at most. Little was known and less written of men who could

channel—it was a subject most decent people avoided—but Rand had learned what he could. Relatively few

men actually sought it out; that was one of Rand's problems. Since the Breaking, most men who channeled had

the ability born in them, ready to spring out as they grew into manhood. Some managed to keep madness at bay

for years before Aes Sedai found and gentled them; others were already hopelessly mad when found, at times

less than a year after first touching saidin. Rand had clung to sanity for close to two years, so-far. Yet in front of

him he had a man who must have managed it for ten or fifteen. That alone was worth something.

 

Nope, we know Taim is not as old as he appears upon arival. So yes it was a guess.

 

Edit: GYLD beat me to it...

 

He's the most likely fit of the bunch.

 

The most likely fit for you perhaps, but as evidence by the replies not so much for everyone else. That brings us squarely back to Mr Ares point of wishful thinking and refusal to admit the facts say you are wrong. A refusal that you hold to strong enough to slur a man's character.

Edited by Suttree
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