Nynaeve...Hero of the Horn

[TheLagomorph]

Another thing about HotH. They are spun out again and again to help the pattern, right? The other threads and spun again and again as well. So take Mat. If he is no hero, he is still spun out to be a general in Manetheren and now to marry the Seanchan princess, aid the DR, start the Band, sound the horn, not to mention being a Ta'veren in his own right. So with all that it seems there are other souls that are by design or inherent value important in more or all of their incarnations. So if that is the case, as I think, how do they differ from the heroes, except that they can not be called by the horn?

[Mr Ares]

Another thing about HotH. They are spun out again and again to help the pattern, right? The other threads and spun again and again as well. So take Mat. If he is no hero, he is still spun out to be a general in Manetheren and now to marry the Seanchan princess, aid the DR, start the Band, sound the horn, not to mention being a Ta'veren in his own right. So with all that it seems there are other souls that are by design or inherent value important in more or all of their incarnations. So if that is the case, as I think, how do they differ from the heroes, except that they can not be called by the horn?

The Heroes are a part of the Pattern's self-correcting mechanism. When they are spun out, it is for a specific purpose. Other people are merely spun out. A soul is needed, one is provided. Of those other, normal souls, the chances are that if you live enough lives you'll end up being important a few times. Mat is important in this life. Whether he has been important in any other lives is unknown as we know nothing about his other lives. Mat has memories of Mantheren, but that doesn't mean it is a result of his past lives.

[Thrasymachus]

Mat's ability to speak the Old Tongue prior to getting the memories, as well as some of the things he speaks indicates that one of his previous lives was in Manetheren. Other than that, we have no real information. However, it doesn't hurt anything to imagine that Mat is King Aemon reborn, so if thinking that is true deepens your appreciation for the WoT cosmology, then you might as well go ahead and think it.

[Finnssss22]

Another thing about HotH. They are spun out again and again to help the pattern, right? The other threads and spun again and again as well. So take Mat. If he is no hero, he is still spun out to be a general in Manetheren and now to marry the Seanchan princess, aid the DR, start the Band, sound the horn, not to mention being a Ta'veren in his own right. So with all that it seems there are other souls that are by design or inherent value important in more or all of their incarnations. So if that is the case, as I think, how do they differ from the heroes, except that they can not be called by the horn?

The Heroes are a part of the Pattern's self-correcting mechanism. When they are spun out, it is for a specific purpose. Other people are merely spun out. A soul is needed, one is provided. Of those other, normal souls, the chances are that if you live enough lives you'll end up being important a few times. Mat is important in this life. Whether he has been important in any other lives is unknown as we know nothing about his other lives. Mat has memories of Mantheren, but that doesn't mean it is a result of his past lives.

 

 

There are 3 choices here:

A) He is Aemon reborn

B) He is a bloodline descendent of Aemon

C) All of the above

 

There is no "None of the above" option.

 

 

 

On another note about his Finn received memories...he has memories of men from different sides of the same battle which kinda rules out that his Finn received memories are of his own past lives.

[dexterryu]

I'd have to say at this point the only two characters(outside of the ones that already are) to have done enough to become heroes would be Nynaeve and Moiraine.

 

Nyneave:

Cleansing of Saidin

Curing stilling/gentling

Her performance in battles

She helped take out Rahvin

She's defeated Moggy twice

 

Moiraine:

Found/Protected/Guided TDR

Took out Be'lal

Took out Lanfear

[Semirhage666]

The Heroes are a part of the Pattern's self-correcting mechanism. When they are spun out, it is for a specific purpose. Other people are merely spun out. A soul is needed, one is provided. Of those other, normal souls, the chances are that if you live enough lives you'll end up being important a few times. Mat is important in this life. Whether he has been important in any other lives is unknown as we know nothing about his other lives. Mat has memories of Mantheren, but that doesn't mean it is a result of his past lives.

 

But I'm pretty sure there was some passage somewhere where Birgitte recalls having quiet, uneventful lives, which she enjoyed at the time but now seemed miserable to her. So I'm not sure a HotH is necessarily as important in one life as they are in another.

[Thrasymachus]

Even in those lives, the Heros are corrective, it just happened to need an quiet, unassuming farmer living somewhere that doesn't seem to impact very much. Perhaps the farmers grew potatoes that went to make the King's supper in a stew with lamb, without which, he would have had fish instead, and choked to death on a bone leaving no heirs, and throwing the region into turmoil. Makes you appreciate the little people a bit more, eh?

 

As for only Nyn and Mori being the only ones who have done enough to qualify as Heroes, we don't know what the bar is to qualify. We don't even know if they weren't already Heroes before being born into these lives. For all we know, all the main cast and most of the secondary characters could be Heroes, or, only Rand and Birgitte. Believe whatever makes you feel better.

[AquilaInfernus]

Nyneave certainly seems qualified enough in this life. I wonder though, would being Ta'veren make it more likely that you would attain hero status? Since the soul in question is tied for a time more stringently to the lace in both cases, is it possible that the two are linked in some way? I would think heroes would be ideally placed to assume TV status, or repetitive or lengthy TV periods would bind to TAR?

 

some food for thought...

[Randommer]

Another thing about HotH. They are spun out again and again to help the pattern, right? The other threads and spun again and again as well. So take Mat. If he is no hero, he is still spun out to be a general in Manetheren and now to marry the Seanchan princess, aid the DR, start the Band, sound the horn, not to mention being a Ta'veren in his own right. So with all that it seems there are other souls that are by design or inherent value important in more or all of their incarnations. So if that is the case, as I think, how do they differ from the heroes, except that they can not be called by the horn?

Totally. The HoH are pattern-correcting mechanisms, and that's exactly what ta'veren are. Imo, considering the purpose of the HoH, it would be very strange if Rand was the only one knocking around for TG. We know that in the AoL, at least Birgitte was also there for the war. Granted she's there this time too, but she wasn't meant to be.

[LeeM.Erickson]

I'd have to say at this point the only two characters(outside of the ones that already are) to have done enough to become heroes would be Nynaeve and Moiraine.

 

Except for the fact that we as readers really have absolutely no idea what it takes to constitute "doing enough" to become Heroes. That's why nearly every major character has been nominated by fans as possible reborn/new Heroes. Because you could take almost any of them and list a bunch of amazing feats they've accomplished. The reality is, we don't know, and have no reason to assume that any of the current characters are going to be added to the list of Heroes, or are Heroes already. I'm not saying it's wrong to speculate, but that's all it can ever be. We have very little precedent to determine what makes somebody qualify to become a Hero.

[dexterryu]

I'd have to say at this point the only two characters(outside of the ones that already are) to have done enough to become heroes would be Nynaeve and Moiraine.

 

Except for the fact that we as readers really have absolutely no idea what it takes to constitute "doing enough" to become Heroes. That's why nearly every major character has been nominated by fans as possible reborn/new Heroes. Because you could take almost any of them and list a bunch of amazing feats they've accomplished. The reality is, we don't know, and have no reason to assume that any of the current characters are going to be added to the list of Heroes, or are Heroes already. I'm not saying it's wrong to speculate, but that's all it can ever be. We have very little precedent to determine what makes somebody qualify to become a Hero.

 

I never intended to imply that I knew the requirements. What I posted was merely my opinion. They could in fact be reborn heroes. The reason I picked the two of them was that they consistently answered the bell and performed admirably in battle as well as accomplished things that had a major impact on the world. I'd put Lan as a candidate as well depending on how his attack on the blight goes. Again these are merely my opinions.

 

When I look at the other characters I don't see them making the same impact.

 

Elayne: Brave, but has gotten her butt whooped\gotten captured in almost every fight she's been in going all the way back to TDR. The biggest impact in battle that she's had was accidentally blowing up a gateway. Outside of that she's a monarch/politician.

 

Perrin: Borderline. Was awesome liberating the two rivers from Trollocs. Was an important player in freeing Rand in LoC. Has some very dark moments though in rescuing Faile.

 

Mat: Mat is awesome, but outside of Ta'veren luck hasn't done anything that has had a MAJOR impact.

 

Egwene: Was awesome defending the tower. Defeated Mesaana in TAR. Outside of that she's a politician.

 

There are others, of course but those are the big main characters. Before someone gets upset with me, a third reminder that these are just my opinions. We know that Birgitte, Gaidal Cain, and Hawkwing are Heroes. Outside of what we know about Hawkwing & Rand/LTT we don't know too much about what the other heroes did in their past life\lives to make them such.

[GYLD]

I fail to see how being a politician/monarch discounts one from being a hero of the horn. Lews Therin held the highest political position in the Age of Legends, and Artur Hawking turned the entirety of the Westlands into his kingdom.

[Finnssss22]

 

Mat: Mat is awesome, but outside of Ta'veren luck hasn't done anything that has had a MAJOR impact.

 

 

 

Wait, what?

 

You mean besides blowing the Horn of Valere, besides saving the future Queen of Andor and Rand's future mother of his children twice, besides saving the future Queen of Malkier, besides saving the future Amyrlin Seat, besides saving Teslyn, Joline and Edesina, besides being responsible for ushering in gunpowder in this age, besides killing Couladin, besides killing a Gholam, besides freeing the Windfinders, besides saving Moiraine (anyone sensing a theme here ;) ), besides marrying the Seanchan Empress?

The last two of which could have more impact on the story than anything even Rand himself has done so far.

Yeah, he hasn't done anything with major impact...

The way it's looking, Mat will actually have the greatest single impact of any person, Rand included.

 

Like you do realise that Mat had to be there to intercept Couladin or Rand would of died at his hands. Rand was already planning on facing Couladin one on one with his sword and not the power as it was and he would of been in no shape at that time to stand a chance. Lan was already doubtful that Rand was good enough to beat Couladin in the first place.

[dexterryu]

I fail to see how being a politician/monarch discounts one from being a hero of the horn. Lews Therin held the highest political position in the Age of Legends, and Artur Hawking turned the entirety of the Westlands into his kingdom.

 

The ones I listed as politicians/monarchs I did so because that is primarily all they have done. Especially in Elayne's case. That's mainly the case for Egwene. Until she got raised in LoC she hadn't done THAT much. The biggest probably is participating in the battle helping Rand liberate Cairhien from the Shaido. After that... WT Politics until the Seanchan attacked the tower.

 

I'm not saying that being a politician would preclude them from becoming a Hero. However would you say that either of them have done what King Aemon & Queen Eldrene did for Manetheren in the Trolloc wars? As far as we know neither of those two are heroes.

[dexterryu]

 

Mat: Mat is awesome, but outside of Ta'veren luck hasn't done anything that has had a MAJOR impact.

 

 

 

Wait, what?

 

You mean besides blowing the Horn of Valere, besides saving the future Queen of Andor and Rand's future mother of his children twice, besides saving the future Queen of Malkier, besides saving the future Amyrlin Seat, besides saving Teslyn, Joline and Edesina, besides being responsible for ushering in gunpowder in this age, besides killing Couladin, besides killing a Gholam, besides freeing the Windfinders, besides saving Moiraine (anyone sensing a theme here ;) ), besides marrying the Seanchan Empress?

The last two of which could have more impact on the story than anything even Rand himself has done so far.

Yeah, he hasn't done anything with major impact...

The way it's looking, Mat will actually have the greatest single impact of any person, Rand included.

 

Like you do realise that Mat had to be there to intercept Couladin or Rand would of died at his hands. Rand was already planning on facing Couladin one on one with his sword and not the power as it was and he would of been in no shape at that time to stand a chance. Lan was already doubtful that Rand was good enough to beat Couladin in the first place.

 

Not saying he hasn't been heroic, but he's been so on a smaller scale. When you compare what he's done to Rand, Nyneave, and (to a lesser extent) Moiriane it hasn't been as significant. Him saving Moiraine is probably the best argument. Again, I love Mat. He's probably the most fun character to read and is my favorite along with Moiraine.

 

When you look at the two horn heroes (Rand/LTT & Hawkwind) that we have decent knowledge of those two affect things on a massive, major scale. Hawkwing united most of the world. LTT is the champion of the light and stands to fight the dark one himself. While we know a significant amount Birgitte & Gaidal we don't know a ton about what their souls have done to become heroes.

[Thrasymachus]

I'm not saying that being a politician would preclude them from becoming a Hero. However would you say that either of them have done what King Aemon & Queen Eldrene did for Manetheren in the Trolloc wars? As far as we know neither of those two are heroes.

 

We don't know that they're not Heroes either. If Mat was Aemon reborn and Tuon was Eldrene reborn, then they wouldn't have shown up when the Horn was blown. Everything about who is a Hero or isn't a Hero and why is complete and utter speculation. Aside from Rand and Birgitte and Hawkwing being Heroes, we know nothing whatsoever. We don't know what it was that Hawkwing did to become a Hero, and it seems absurd to suggest that what he did in his last life as Artur Hawkwing was what promoted him to being a Hero. He appears to lead the Heroes in Tel'aran'Rhiod and when the Horn is blown, and explains Rand's place in the Pattern, not a role for the newbie.

 

Ta'veren and Heroes of the Horn are both literary metaphors. Ta'veren is a metaphor for the attention or focus of the writer on particular characters and events to move his plot forward. Heroes of the Horn are metaphors for universal character archetypes, employed by writers to fulfill specific roles in the polts they build. The best argument possible for whether any characters in the story are Heroes is to ask whether or not the character in question is essentially, or partakes in a set of universal character archtypes. And the best way to tell who the "main" characters are in this story is to ask whether they are ta'veren, and this is relevant because so much space is devoted to characters that are not the main characters, but very important secondary characters.

[dexterryu]

I'm not saying that being a politician would preclude them from becoming a Hero. However would you say that either of them have done what King Aemon & Queen Eldrene did for Manetheren in the Trolloc wars? As far as we know neither of those two are heroes.

 

We don't know that they're not Heroes either. If Mat was Aemon reborn and Tuon was Eldrene reborn, then they wouldn't have shown up when the Horn was blown. Everything about who is a Hero or isn't a Hero and why is complete and utter speculation. Aside from Rand and Birgitte and Hawkwing being Heroes, we know nothing whatsoever. We don't know what it was that Hawkwing did to become a Hero, and it seems absurd to suggest that what he did in his last life as Artur Hawkwing was what promoted him to being a Hero. He appears to lead the Heroes in Tel'aran'Rhiod and when the Horn is blown, and explains Rand's place in the Pattern, not a role for the newbie.

 

Ta'veren and Heroes of the Horn are both literary metaphors. Ta'veren is a metaphor for the attention or focus of the writer on particular characters and events to move his plot forward. Heroes of the Horn are metaphors for universal character archetypes, employed by writers to fulfill specific roles in the polts they build. The best argument possible for whether any characters in the story are Heroes is to ask whether or not the character in question is essentially, or partakes in a set of universal character archtypes. And the best way to tell who the "main" characters are in this story is to ask whether they are ta'veren, and this is relevant because so much space is devoted to characters that are not the main characters, but very important secondary characters.

 

Nothing I disagree with there. To re-iterate one more time, these are my opinions on who in the story has earned their place as a hunter. I'm using my own rules here. The two that stand out most to me as champions of the cause (the Light winning) outside of Rand himself are Moiraine and Nynaeve. When I look at it from that perspective and also go back through the list it shows up there too:

 

Elayne: Main goal is Andor, then the light

 

Perrin: Main focus is Faile, then the light

 

Egwene: Main focus is the tower

 

Mat: Main focus is the band, then the light

 

Lan: Main focus is personal war with the shadow

 

One last disclaimer... these are MY OWN criteria. I'm not claiming this is THE criteria that the patter/RJ/BS use.

[sleepinghour]

Elayne: Brave, but has gotten her butt whooped\gotten captured in almost every fight she's been in going all the way back to TDR. The biggest impact in battle that she's had was accidentally blowing up a gateway. Outside of that she's a monarch/politician.

Elayne might not have fought any Forsaken, but arguably she (along with Nynaeve) did something more important by locating the Bowl and fixing the weather. Some fans have argued that the Bowl didn't do much of a difference in the long run since people ended up starving anyway from the spoiling food, but from the Wise Ones' dreams we know that the world would otherwise have been doomed. So that bumps her into world-saving territory.

 

"All three had this dream, which makes it especially significant. Rain, coming from a bowl. There are snares and pitfalls around the bowl. If the right hands pick it up, they will find a treasure perhaps as great as the bowl. If the wrong hands, the world is doomed. The key to finding the bowl is to find the one who is no longer."

Still, there are little more than a hundred Heroes of the Horn out of countless people who've done brave things and sacrificed their lives for the Light. If that's what it takes to become a Hero, there should be thousands of Borderlander Heroes by now. So clearly there's more to it than that. My guess is that it's not enough to do one great thing; they need to be exceptional people (leaders and fighters) that will continue to do great things in future lives. And honestly, I'm not sure how many of the main characters can be counted on to do that...certainly the Dragon soul always will, and Birgitte/Gaidal usually did, but I can see Perrin deciding to become a farmer nine times out of ten.

[Thrasymachus]

They don't need to be exceptional people destined to do great things in this life and their future lives. They need to be archetypes, and that's it. The reason there aren't hundreds or thousands of Borderlander Heroes is because they all follow, or follow closely enough, the same archetype, and there's already a Hero that fills that archtype, so the position's filled, thank you. When it becomes necessary to have that archetypal character in his/her archetypal places doing his/her archetypal things, then the Wheel will weave the Hero that represents that archetype into the Pattern to be where it needs it to go.

 

How do you become a Hero? By being so unique and yet so necessary that you define a new and unique archetype of person or character. Heroes are the archetypal characters necessary to the telling of a story, and ta'veren is the focus of the storyteller and the events of the story on the main character(s).

[cwbys21]

I have long hoped Nyneave and Lan were, tied to each other

I to have thought that they are Heros, possibly King Aemon & Queen Eldrene. Lan's fight against the shadow alone has some parallels and him marrying one of the few women with the power to kill thousands of trollocs from a great distance? Definitely plausible.

[LeeM.Erickson]

Could it be possible for souls to be tied to each other without being bound to the Wheel? Didn't RJ (or was it Brandon?) say that Rand and Moridin/Ishamael's soul are often tied together, and I certainly doubt Moridin is a Hero of the Horn.

[Hyronimus]

How do you become a Hero? By being so unique and yet so necessary that you define a new and unique archetype of person or character. Heroes are the archetypal characters necessary to the telling of a story, and ta'veren is the focus of the storyteller and the events of the story on the main character(s).

 

Indeed, the suggestion of Hurin joining their ranks makes sense as he fulfills another type, that of the dogged detective, the sniffer.

[Nightstrike]

I think Mat might have lived as a warrior/king/general in Manetheren. He probably fought during the war of the shadow as well. I think "the gambler" is a title just as "the dragon" is. Maybe Mat's soul is the one who sounds the horn during most turnings of the Wheel? The dragon is probably more important during times when the DO tries to break in/out.

 

I don't think Nynaeve is a hero of the horn. She could be, but I doubt it. Lan probably is, or will be, a hero of the horn. His current life seems extraordinary enough (measured in "Hero" qualities).

[sleepinghour]

They don't need to be exceptional people destined to do great things in this life and their future lives. They need to be archetypes, and that's it.

Can you provide any evidence for this, or are you actually just passing your opinion off as fact?

[cookiecrisp]

The horn has some demanding criterion. There can be heroes born again and again and not bound to the horn.

 

For example, what's the say that Egwene isn't a soul that's born randomly throughout the ages that has had her fair share of luck, savvy, and a penchant for doing things right? She's skilled in politics now, but her success is only her own in a very small part. Her personality and willingness to act the role (Nyn wouldn't have changed at all for it) and the plotting around her falling into place like the pieces of a puzzle led her to her position. What's to say that Egwene isn't the soul of someone like Latra that isn't a hero of the horn?

 

I don't think every single brave and capable person like Sandar, Domon, Tamaroth, Uno, Hurin, Karede, Galad, Gawyn, etc. has to be a hero of the horn.

 

Of course there are some that fit under the heroic actions on the hour of their death like Verin and Jain that look like they fall right under the requirements.