What is the deal with the Egwene-hate?

[Suttree]

Rand doesn't really care for control any more. He has realised what he has to do, and nobody can stop him from doing it. He wants the Aes Sedai on his side, he wants Egwene to lead them in the battle, because he will not be present, he will be trying to seal the bore while the others fight.

 

All he wants to do in terms of "control" is to prevent as many deaths and destruction as possible. This does not require his personal control, he just needs everyone to get organized and work together.

 

It can be debated that Egwene want's to control Rand, I do not think it is the case, but I will leave that, since it is a matter of speculation and opinion rather than proof.

 

What proof we do have is that Egwene has just heard him say "I am setting the DO free." She hears the other bit about it being the only way to seal him back up, but these are the words that make the impact.

 

Set the DO free? Madness, and who can blame her? We as the reader know that the seals must be broken in order to properly seal him up again. (Perrin's metaphor is most apt here)

But Egwene has no such knowledge, nor does Rand explain (intentionally, because he expects her to gather everyone)

 

The matter of the seals will likely not even be of any consequence. Rand will break them no matter what.

 

INTERVIEW: 2010

Twitter 2009-2010 (WoT) (Verbatim)

 

JAY (8 JULY 2010)

Will we see the Dark One in WoT? Will he walk the earth and physically fight with Rand & Co?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (8 JULY 2010)

 

I can't tell you for certain about the Dark One. There WILL be a confrontation, though.

BRANDON SANDERSON

The last seals will be broken.

 

His main intention for the meeting is to discuss the Dragon's Peace. He has no intention nor any fear of being controlled, and I think Egwene knows this as well.

 

Point being, there is no fight for control. Rand doesn't want nor does he need it. Egwene however, will have to rebuild, and he is giving her this power, since he believes he will die in the process anyway. Egwene is only acting as Rand wants, she is not doing anything against him in reality, he "tricked" her into it, it is not her fault.

 

Well said Barid, I have been enjoying your posts on the topic lately. I find it odd that some posters view AS as a group that Rand will completely shut out during the LB. People can't just set aside their entire history and view things from within the framework of an Elaida led, Forsaken influenced, BA riddled, Fain touched, split WT. Despite the fact that the WT as an institution has failed, they will still play a large role and quite obviously have been set up for redemption. The WT has bottomed out, Egwene has already been making numerous reforms to change the culture moving forward and as BS said...

 

Egwene is ready to be bad ass in the Last Battle; her character development is done.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Suttree

[randsc]

I don't think anyone really denies that the AS, and Egwene, will play a major and perhaps critical role. The debate is between those who think that that will happen AFTER some forced re calibration of their attitudes, and those who think they're already just peachy.

[Pug]

I think that Egwene has fallen into the trap that just about every Aes Sedai is in, that they know everything and that their way is the only way.

[Suttree]

I think that Egwene has fallen into the trap that just about every Aes Sedai is in, that they know everything and that their way is the only way.

 

She has been drinking the kool-aid, no doubt. I would point to the significant changes she has been making though in response to the "there way is the only way" comment. She quite obviously feels "there" way hasn't been working so well.

 

ToM

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly, not wanting the Wise Ones to overhear. "Was it ever? The Black Tower bonds Aes Sedai, the Aiel no longer revere us, the Windfinders have hidden their best channelers from us for centuries and are becoming increasingly belligerent. If we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending upon how successful we are. I accept neither title.

 

I don't think anyone really denies that the AS, and Egwene, will play a major and perhaps critical role.

 

Have a chat with xxx

Edited April 19, 2012 by Suttree

[Barid Bel Medar]

Thanks suttree, I do enjoy this thread, good posts all round for the most part anyway.

 

 

I don't think anyone really denies that the AS, and Egwene, will play a major and perhaps critical role. The debate is between those who think that that will happen AFTER some forced re calibration of their attitudes, and those who think they're already just peachy.

 

Indeed, I agree.

 

I am not necessarily saying that Egwene is perfect has has no room to grow, as she obviously has her faults.

 

 

I don't think that anyone is denying that in the end, Egwene will "come around" and help out Rand, or if not exactly Rand, do the best to fight against the Shadow. Which apart from the Dragon's Peace and a general unity, I do not think Rand really believes is important to his task.He obviously wants the Light to suffer as little casualties as possible, but in the end, his main goal is to seal the Bore. Thinking of anything else is pointless, if he does not seal the DO away again, even if every single force, and the Shadowspawn suddenly turned against the DO and began helping out, if the DO is not sealed, the world is doomed.

 

So in that sense, I don't think there necessarily needs to be a confrontation between the two in that regards, in fact it does seem he actually WANTS her to take control of the people. He basically hands them to her on a plate, by giving her a reason to rally them under her banner against him.

 

Where the two sides of this diverge, as you say, is in Egwene's reaction to this, which is certainly up in the air, and I think this was done intentionally by Brandon, we do not see much - if any- contemplation on Egwene's part, again, I believe, intentionally. Obviously there is different opinions on the reason.

 

My opinion is that Egwene is not thinking about the matter because she knows she cannot understand how the bore and seals work after only a month, even if she locked herself up in her study and researched the whole time, indeed, she needs to literally fight for her position as Amyrlin on a daily basis, and hunt down a Forsaken which she believes (from her dream) will destroy the White Tower if she is not dealt with. I think this shows that she knows she has no part in the actual sealing of the bore. She knows her job will be to save as many people as she can, and rebuild afterwards.

 

So, she does the only thing that she can do. She realises what gathering the armies together actually means, even if she does not realise Rand intended this, she sees that in addition to her first goal, gathering them to oppose Rand, she does see the opportunity to gather everyone as a united force.

 

Thus, because she knows she hasn't the time nor resources to understand the dynamics of the bore, and the gathering of armies is a good idea in any event, she is waiting until Rand explains himself.

 

Again, we have the divergence in opinion on what will happen here. I for one do not believe that she will go so far as to actually try and physically restrain Rand, or actually use the armies and effectively start a war. If she does, then I will be among the first to denounce her as a milk-drinking-son-of-a-goat. I do not think this is her intention.

 

I think that she is gathering the armies and setting such a hardline approach to Rand's plan to convince them to join her. She is, however, I believe, not so obstinately opposed, but rather reserving judgement until Rand explains himself. If he explains himself properly (which he will most likely do) she will "join" him. Or at least, if she won't accept that, she will not oppose him.

 

The reason she is gathering the armies, aside from the above realisation that it is probably the best thing to do in any case, is insurance. She thinks he is possibly insane, which she has cause to believe, since he was up until VoG, and is still possibly so (although I rather think he is perfectly sane now) so in the event he turns out to be batshit crazy and breaking the seals for no reason, she has the power to stop him.

 

Edit: Unless she turns as Randsc hopes, then she would be a sweet as villain and balefired into righteous oblivion

 

Not saying she is perfect, she is arrogant and somewhat self-absorbed, I just think that fracturing the Light and endangering the world is not among that list of faults.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Barid Bel Medar

[Manscher]

Still doesn't explain her thoughts about "forcing her hand" or her explanation to Gawyn about her believing Rand knows it's wrong about destroying the seals and that he wants her to stop him. Those are the thoughts of some really arrogant and self absorbed person, who are completely sure that he/she alone knows the right of things.

 

As Randsc said, none of us really denies Egwene or the WTs importance in TG, but they kinda need to get knocked down a few pegs. All other major characters/powers aside from the seanchan have been kicked down when they grew to arrogant, Egwene have still avoided that, because everybody around her thinks she's the best thing since sliced bread

Edited April 19, 2012 by Manscher

[Barid Bel Medar]

Still doesn't explain her thoughts about "forcing her hand" or her explanation to Gawyn about her believing Rand knows it's wrong about destroying the seals and that he wants her to stop him. Those are the thoughts of some really arrogant and self absorbed person, who are completely sure that he/she alone knows the right of things.

 

As Randsc said, none of us really denies Egwene or the WTs importance in TG, but they kinda need to get knocked down a few pegs. All other major characters/powers aside from the seanchan have been kicked down when they grew to arrogant, Egwene have still avoided that, because everybody around her thinks she's the best thing since sliced bread

 

The White Tower hasn't already got knocked down a few pegs after the Seanchan Raid and Egwene abusing them for their foolishness?

 

It actually explains precisely these points.

 

 

1. (About him wanting her to stop him) This is in fact telling that she knows something of Rand's intentions. I believe this is early on in the book, at that point she would not have had much time to think about it, but she is right in one thing. Rand IS doing precisely that. He WANTS her to gather everyone under the pretence of stopping him. Egwene here shows she has at least partially understood him. And it is in fact very logical to assume that. Why would someone tell you that they were about to do something considered insane, then say we will meet in a month (hint, bring some armies) if they did not want you to do something about it? Remember he turned up at the White Tower of his own free will, there was no reason he needed to inform her of anything. What else is she supposed to think at this point? We know she is wrong, but it is nothing less than what Rand wanted her to think, no arrogance there, just doing as he expects.

 

There is two ways we can look at this. a) She has partially understood him, but has misinterpreted the last bit about actually wanting her to stop him, in which case she has either figured it out, or will do when the time comes.

b) she had already figured it out and says this to further perpetuate Rand's plan. If she understands what he meant, she sure isn't going to say "oh, Rand is actually tricking you all so that you gather together to fight the Last Battle." No, she is going to go along with what he planned, say that Rand WANTS everyone to gather so Egwene can stop him.

 

In either case, I do not see anything wrong with her reaction.

 

2. (Forcing her hand) Indeed, this again is precisely what has been explained. Egwene is willing to listen to him. She hopes he actually comes up with a good explanation and is not just batshit insane. We know he will, but Egwene does not know, she would be rather tense at that moment, putting a lot of faith in Rand that he is doing the right thing. Even if we say my theory is incorrect, and that Egwene has no idea what is going on, and plans to oppose him, the result is still the same. She hopes he doesn't force her hand, she hopes he has some sensible explaination, I can't see why this is wrong.

 

Admittedly, the way she says it comes off as arrogant, but she is VERY, VERY nervous at this point. She may just have to face down an insane Dragon Reborn, whom the sun literally shines around, and the most powerful ta'veren of the Age. She sure as hell is hoping fervently that he doesn't force her hand, because she knows she has little chance.

 

I agree she is arrogant, and somewhat self-absorbed and perhaps she needs to grow out of this. She certainly needs to learn how to trust people more. That was a main theme in Towers of Midnight with Gawyn.

 

I just think that the issue of the Seals is not the place nor time for this to happen, as in this, she is not really at fault. (Mind you, if she does blindly oppose him and refuse to listen, then I will fully agree, that is stupidity of the highest magnitude, but I still believe she is willing to listen to reason.)

[Mr Ares]

The problem I have is how self described complicated weaves are learnt by super girls and pretty much everyone else in one look.

As already stated, stronger channelers tend to learn quicker. Also, the Aiel force their students to learn in this way, and the Asha'man's training methods would encourage learning things really quickly as well. People in the AoL would be more likely to have a comprehensive education in the OP - the Third Agers have huge gaps in their knowledge. Learning a given weave doesn't take long. Perfecting the use of hundreds, possibly thousands of weaves, takes a bit longer. Not to mention, for a lot of AS in the AoL, using the OP wasn't a part of their day job. They could channel, so they learnt and that's it. Not everyone would be a master, they'd just learn the basics and then not worry about it.

[Suttree]

As Randsc said, none of us really denies Egwene or the WTs importance in TG, but they kinda need to get knocked down a few pegs.

 

Dude seriously what books have you been reading? How much lower can they go? They quite obviously have bottomed out.

[randsc]

As Randsc said, none of us really denies Egwene or the WTs importance in TG, but they kinda need to get knocked down a few pegs.

 

Dude seriously what books have you been reading? How much lower can they go? They quite obviously have bottomed out.

 

Dude, they need to REALIZE that. The first step is acknowledging you have a problem...

[Suttree]

As Randsc said, none of us really denies Egwene or the WTs importance in TG, but they kinda need to get knocked down a few pegs.

 

Dude seriously what books have you been reading? How much lower can they go? They quite obviously have bottomed out.

 

Dude, they need to REALIZE that. The first step is acknowledging you have a problem...

 

See quote above, Egwene has done so, shes not making those changes just for fun. Yes she buys into the WT hype a bit more than I would like but still it's obvious she knows things need to change.

[muddasssir]

Egwene-Hater-In-Chief,

 

you cannot make that claim lightly I'll contest it all the way and mind it. It is not going to be a walk in the park

[muddasssir]

Thanks suttree, I do enjoy this thread, good posts all round for the most part anyway.

 

 

 

I think this shows that she knows she has no part in the actual sealing of the bore. She knows her job will be to save as many people as she can, and rebuild afterwards.

 

 

 

this is the part I disagree with as we know since first book she is going to be one of the people who are going to be present at the sealing of the bore. There was a MIN's viewing to this effect. As an aside Barid you are such a nice person and I respect you immensely for your niceness and positive outlook but if you are trying to sell me eggy ? I am not buying

[Suttree]

this is the part I disagree with as we know since first book she is going to be one of the people who are going to be present at the sealing of the bore. There was a MIN's viewing to this effect.

 

The viewing says nothing about the sealing of the bore.

 

The whole group - Sparks swirling around you, thousands of them, and a big shadow, darker than midnight. The sparks are trying to fill the shadow, and the shadow is trying to swallow the sparks. You are all tied together in something dangerous.

[muddasssir]

there was another quote where she says "He has to do something but all of you have to be there even the gleeman, the young woman who just arrived stone faced all of you are connected or e will fail and worst than him will fall". I am quoting it from my memory and my memory reminds me of a joke which goes like " I a=have always been proud of two things; first is my memory and for life of me I can't remember what other was. LOL

[Edynol]

there was another quote where she says "He has to do something but all of you have to be there even the gleeman, the young woman who just arrived stone faced all of you are connected or e will fail and worst than him will fall". I am quoting it from my memory and my memory reminds me of a joke which goes like " I a=have always been proud of two things; first is my memory and for life of me I can't remember what other was. LOL

I think that referred to the stay at Shadar Lagoth.

[Suttree]

there was another quote where she says "He has to do something but all of you have to be there even the gleeman, the young woman who just arrived stone faced all of you are connected or e will fail and worst than him will fall". I am quoting it from my memory and my memory reminds me of a joke which goes like " I a=have always been proud of two things; first is my memory and for life of me I can't remember what other was. LOL

 

Hmm I am looking on encyclopedia wot & wot wiki and don't see anything like that under Min's viewings. Not sure why I don't recall that either. Care to point out which one you mean?

 

http://wot.wikia.com.../Min's_viewings

Edited April 19, 2012 by Suttree

[muddasssir]

Thom was not present at SL

[Thrasymachus]

Thom certainly was present at Shadar Logoth. How else do you suppose he ended up on Bayle Domon's boat with Mat and Rand?

[Suttree]

Thom was not present at SL

 

Man, sorry mate but I am really going to have to request that you cite proof of your claims moving forward. You have consistently been wrong but always just shift gears to the next topic without even addressing it. Please provide quotes from here on out.

[muddasssir]

Yar suttree lighten up man I'll get my tEotW tomorrow and sorry thom was present at SL but Rand did not do anything worth mentioning there did he? I ave always thought that particular viewing is related with TG it is past midnight in Lahore and I haven't slept in someting like 48 hours I cannot go rummaging through my books at this time of night and wake the wole house any way I am too lazy. But I do remember that Min viewing pretty vividly and I'll get you the page number and all the details tomorrow.

 

 

PS YAR means friend in Urdu and Punjabi

[Finnssss22]

I'm having trouble following what you guys are even arguing about at this point BUT I will try to help and clarify a couple of things.

 

First, Thom was most certainly at SL in tEotW. Mat, Rand and Thom were together after the group was separated. They stayed together until Whitebridge, where Thom pushed his instruments into Rand's hands and charged a Fade.

 

Second, Min did say that Thom was also part of everything...

tEotW chapter 15:

"All of us?" Rand muttered. "Egwene, too? But they weren't after---I mean---"

Min did not seem to notice the slip. "The girl? She's part of it. And the gleeman. All of you. You're in love with her." He stared at her. "I can tell that even without seeing any images. She loves you, too, but she's not for you, or you for her. Not the ways you both want."

Edited April 19, 2012 by Finnssss

[muddasssir]

see there is no need to make fuss here is your quote though one I am mentioning includes Moiraine i'll get it tomorrow Thanks finns you just saved my you know what

[Suttree]

I'm having trouble following what you guys are even arguing about at this point BUT I will try to help and clarify a couple of things.

 

First, Thom was most certainly at SL in tEotW. Mat, Rand and Thom were together after the group was separated. They stayed together until Whitebridge, where Thom pushed his instruments into Rand's hands and charged a Fade.

 

Second, Min did say that Thom was also part of everything...

tEotW chapter 15:

"All of us?" Rand muttered. "Egwene, too? But they weren't after---I mean---"

Min did not seem to notice the slip. "The girl? She's part of it. And the gleeman. All of you. You're in love with her." He stared at her. "I can tell that even without seeing any images. She loves you, too, but she's not for you, or you for her. Not the ways you both want."

 

Thanks Finnssss, Mudd said that viewing was proof that Egwene would be present at the sealing of the bore. That is what we were disputing.

 

To Mudd, sorry man but it has been consistently happening for some time now. Just want to avoid the confusion and derailing that occur around it is all.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Suttree

[muddasssir]

no I can understand as I said I am too lazy it is too much bother to go hunting for quotes but if you insist i'll get them for you.