Sanderson Moments

[yoniy0]

See The Chronology of The Wheel of Time by Steven Cooper and this ToM Calendar.

[Terez]

RJ did that quite a bit, actually.

 

Hmmm... after Sanderson did his first WOT book I went back through and re-read the entire series and I don’t remember it bugging me until I got back to Sanderson’s book...

 

I recall RJ had lots of people say "Light, ....." (without the 'but' after it)

 

First example from each book:

"Light, but I'm tired. Maybe if I just stay here for an hour or two, I'll feel like getting up. Mat will never let me hear the end of it if I miss seeing Baerlon because of a dream. "

"Light, but you mind me of the time Teva got so mad at a hornet buzzing round his ears, he kicked the nest. You've likely just convinced everyone in the room you are in some deep part of the Game. It must be deep, as they'll see it, if you deny playing at all. Every lord and lady in Cairhien plays it."

"Light, but I wish I saw more happy things. All the happy things seem to have gone away."

"Wake me when it burns down to there. Light, but I wish we had a clock."

He stopped fingering a slice across the chest of his coat—an inch difference, and that spear would have gone through his heart; Light, but the man had been good! – and put that part of it out of his mind.

Siuan eyed her stubbornly for a moment—Light, but the woman could be obstinate!—before closing the bracelet around her wrist.

Perrin had wished so hard for Faile to speak that he jumped when she did, stepping out of the line of attendants. Choosing her words carefully, she confronted the would-be queen like a stooping eagle. Light, but she was beautiful!

A long time ago the onetime Warder had told him to keep the axe until he stopped hating to use it. Light, but he still hated it!

Aludra laughed softly. Not softly enough that he could not hear, though. Light, but a woman could do more with a laugh than a dockside bullyboy with a string of curses! And just as deliberately.

Light, but Samitsu hated Cairhien!

Javindhra muttered something about correspondence and rushed off down the white floor tiles marked with the red Flame of Tar Valon before Pevara could say a word. Not that she had intended to say anything, but surely as peaches were poison, the woman was going to drag her heels in this and leave the whole matter in her lap. Light, but this was the last thing she needed, at the worst possible time.

Some other Accepted was going to find the boychild without knowing what she had found. She herself likely would not hear of it for years. Light, but it hardly seemed fair. She knew, and it meant nothing.

[Charlz Guybon]

That is my problem. When it comes to elements that Brandon is not good at or not interested in, then he does not bother with them. It is not a hubris in him, so far as I can tell. Rather it seems to be a sense of resignation. The sense of 'I can't do this well, so I won't bother trying at all'.

 

With this does he shrug of the timeline issues. With this does he set aside the clunky prose. So my issue with Sanderson Moments is not so much in what happens, as in what doesn't. The negative space is telling--and again, to be clear, this is not that he did not do as good a job as 'Jordan' could have--it's that he didn't do as good a job as 'Brandon' could have.

I have to disagree on the prose. If you look at his prose in Elantris and then read The Way of Kings you'll see there has been significant improvement. It's not great like Jordan, but I do feel it's gone from bad to acceptable.

 

As for the timeline issues that's 100% RJs fault for letting Perrin get so far behind everyone. There's no way the books could have been written in strict chronological order while remaining thematically coherent.

[Agitel]

It's hard for me to be super-critical of Sanderson's handling of tGS or ToM. Both could have used more revisions, but they both went through significantly more revisions than his own work. He's also likely been working under somewhat fast-tracked publishing deadlines. On top of that, he was contracted to write a single 250,000 word novel. With AMoL, he'll have published three novels for a total well over 900,000 words (possibly closer to 1,000,000) in just a few years, tying up perhaps one of the most complicated (number of plots, characters, etc...) fantasy series ever written. Do I wish Jordan could have finished it? Or course, so does Sanderson.

 

 

 

I wish with all I can give that I weren’t the one doing this book. I wish it were Robert Jordan himself, as I am a long time fan of the series and his works. I think his death is a tragedy for the fantasy community, one we will be feeling for many years to come.

 

If Sanderson had a decade to write these books and to familiarize himself with these characters and to learn how to really write them by getting inside Jordan's head, I'd be happy. But we'd be waiting a decade. I don't think Sanderson just threw his hands up in the air at some aspects of the story and gave up on them; I think he just knew that there were some things he was better at and focused on those to the best of his ability.

 

Could they have been better? Yes, of course. But at what cost? I don't mean to label you guys all as naysayers. Perhaps you're just trying to be the voice of reason against those who claim these are the best books in the series. I can't really say. I appreciate what Sanderson has done, and while more could always have been done, I feel he went above and beyond what was asked of him and has done an admirable job.

[yoniy0]

This topic isn't about belittling Sanderson's contribution. One can be thankful and believe he's doing a good enough job, and remain critical of some aspects of his writing(1). And there's nothing disrespectful about discussing these aspects, in and of itself.

 

To say it clear, some things BS does that are of immense value to us (such as taking up this project). Some are merely good. And some, we're less than enthusiastic about. What's wrong with that?

 

PS

(1) It's not the fact that he's writing WoT that gives us that right. Ask me what I think about Shallan's sense of humor, for example.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

 

PS

(1) It's not the fact that he's writing WoT that gives us that right. Ask me what I think about Shallan's sense of humor, for example.

Isn't it purposely bad? None of the other characters thinks she's funny either.

[Agitel]

This topic isn't about belittling Sanderson's contribution. One can be thankful and believe he's doing a good enough job, and remain critical of some aspects of his writing(1). And there's nothing disrespectful about discussing these aspects, in and of itself.

 

To say it clear, some things BS does that are of immense value to us (such as taking up this project). Some are merely good. And some, we're less than enthusiastic about. What's wrong with that?

 

PS

(1) It's not the fact that he's writing WoT that gives us that right. Ask me what I think about Shallan's sense of humor, for example.

 

Oh Sanderson has a problem with humor in general, I agree. Whether Shallan's intended to be funny or not, there's examples beyond that.

 

My point wasn't to say we can't be critical of Sanderson's writing. It struck me that some of the posts were suggesting he was half-assing the books (or was at least not dedicated enough to writing them). It was that sentiment that bothered me.

[Luckers]

My point wasn't to say we can't be critical of Sanderson's writing. It struck me that some of the posts were suggesting he was half-assing the books (or was at least not dedicated enough to writing them). It was that sentiment that bothered me.

 

The problem is that the books were rushed. Now this wasn't his fault directly, but the result of the demand of the fandom and the decisions of Tor and Harriet--nevertheless, I do feel he had a responsibility to put up his hand and say 'no, I'm sorry, these aren't ready for publication'. He accepted that responsibility when he accepted the job--at least to my mind.

 

To be clear, the way I veiw it is like the book is a ship. Brandon, as writer, is captain of the ship. Harriet is the landside owner of the ship. RJ's notes are an inventory of what the ship should carry, and where it should carry it to. It is the Captain's responsibility to ensure that cargo has been correctly stocked and stored, but, for all that, it is nonetheless also the Captain's responsibility to ensure the ship is sea-worthy. TofM was not sea-worthy. In a great many ways it floundered, it's cargo came loose and spilled about haphazardly.

 

Now part of this is on Harriet--and I think she realised this. The demand for the extra delay shows this--as the owner it is her right and responsibility to inspect the ship before it sails, and thus it is just as much her responsibility to ensure the ship is sea-worthy. With TofM she was only brought aboard just before the ship sailed, and this time round she demanded a longer time for inspection.

 

Getting back to the point though, the 'half-assed' and 'not dedicated enough' claims levelled at Brandon... I understand them, but I do not agree with them. Brandon clearly cares very much, and is very dedicated to the Wheel of Time. The problem, in fact, is not with his intentions at all, it's with his methodology. Brandon's style of writing is to slap things down on a page. He enjoys doing this, getting to the thick of the adventure, and why not--is that not the point of a story?

 

The answer to that is that the legwork is the reason the 'thick of the story' has such value, and this is something I think Brandon misses. The simple difference between the way he writes scenes and characters that he is interested in, and those that bore him, makes this very clear. He in fact spoke of this very openly and freely in Melbourne--I intentionally did not use the word 'admitted' there, as it infers a crime, where as Brandon was quite clear--this is a result of him being a) a fan, and b) not Jordan.

 

So, is Brandon being half-assed about this? Is he not dedicated enough? No! He truly is a fan. But, as a result he rushes into the story with all the enthusiasm of a fan, and as such things get ignored and mishandled. To get back to my analogy, he is so enthused about getting the ship to port that he fails to ensure the cargo is properly stored before launch.

 

Harriet's now trying to answer that need by demanding more time (though of course we don't know everything that is going on behind the scenes and theres is doubtlessly more involved than that). Brandon was opposed to that, and my guess is he was angered that such a decision was made in spite of his promise for a november delivery. I understand this... but I am still troubled that Brandon, in all his dedication and enthusiasm, is not doing his due dilligence by the Wheel.

 

He accepted this responsibility, and we should all honour him for that--but nevertheless, he STILL accepted RESPONSIBILITY. Though I don't expect him to be Jordan, I do expect him to do the best job he can, even if that means demanding more time and putting in more effort--and again, he was the one who stated this was the case, though he did not seem to realise the importance of it--when characters and plots he has less interest in are being left by the wayside [his exact words were that with some he simply took them and slammed them on the table], then there is room for him to be putting in more effort.

 

I've talked about this with him. Initially he was against the delay, but he's stated that he's come to see the value of it, but again the vibe is entirely in that the editors and betas need more time, and that he feels his own work is fine. I do agree, the editors and the betas do need more time, but that's where my agreement ends, and my true problem with Brandon begins.

[A. Pseudonym]

Are you implying that he's irresponsibly negligent in his treatment of Jordan's work?

[Luckers]

Are you implying that he's irresponsibly negligent in his treatment of Jordan's work?

 

I'm stating what I've stated.

 

Edit: No, that's a cop out, and me shying away from my responsibilities. Yes, I do think that Brandon has not fully realised the responsibilities that he accepted when he took on the job. Again this is not to say I blame him for not doing as good a job as Jordan could have, nor that I'm ignoring that there are a great many other players in the final product--Team Jordan, Tor, the Beta's... but yes, I'm concerned with Brandon's apparent perceptions of his responsibility toward the Wheel.

 

In addition I will state that partially I'm concerned to the degree to which our criticisms have reached him. Certainly he has often and repeatedly betrayed no sign of awareness of what are some of the key problems that are discussed time and again--one need look no further than his assurance that Mat is the only character that was truly OOC.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well said Luckers, I agree totally.

 

To add - or perhaps re-state since I am lazy at the moment- to the list I found that often when two of the main characters talked it was a A v B, it seemed that the whole point of the meeting was who got the better of who, who won, rather than just a normal disagreement, or conversation.

 

Perhaps it is intentional and it says something about it in the notes, and perhaps it is common throughout the WoT (there are certainly examples) but it was just so very obvious and jarring in tGS and ToM.

[yoniy0]

In addition I will state that partially I'm concerned to the degree to which our criticisms have reached him.

Speaking of which, in your conversations last month, did you get the chance to discuss it openly?

[Suttree]

In addition I will state that partially I'm concerned to the degree to which our criticisms have reached him.

Speaking of which, in your conversations last month, did you get the chance to discuss it openly?

 

Yeah I was curious about that as well...

[OptimusPrime]

Are you implying that he's irresponsibly negligent in his treatment of Jordan's work?

 

I'm stating what I've stated.

 

Edit: No, that's a cop out, and me shying away from my responsibilities. Yes, I do think that Brandon has not fully realised the responsibilities that he accepted when he took on the job. Again this is not to say I blame him for not doing as good a job as Jordan could have, nor that I'm ignoring that there are a great many other players in the final product--Team Jordan, Tor, the Beta's... but yes, I'm concerned with Brandon's apparent perceptions of his responsibility toward the Wheel.

 

In addition I will state that partially I'm concerned to the degree to which our criticisms have reached him. Certainly he has often and repeatedly betrayed no sign of awareness of what are some of the key problems that are discussed time and again--one need look no further than his assurance that Mat is the only character that was truly OOC.

Well said Luckers, I agree totally.

 

To add - or perhaps re-state since I am lazy at the moment- to the list I found that often when two of the main characters talked it was a A v B, it seemed that the whole point of the meeting was who got the better of who, who won, rather than just a normal disagreement, or conversation.

 

Perhaps it is intentional and it says something about it in the notes, and perhaps it is common throughout the WoT (there are certainly examples) but it was just so very obvious and jarring in tGS and ToM.

 

I know what you mean.

 

My oppinion is that it felt perfectly natural in the plot of TGS due to the focus being on Rands situation-with him its almost always been about who got the better of who in a confrontation. Remember when Cadsuane first turned up? We were on the edge of our seats, because it was the first person in a while who he couldnt get the better of. In TGS he was turning evil and needed confronting, it was right for the situation.

 

ToM though, I duno. It WAS obvious that everything was a competition. I think it was a bid to add more tension-OMG the end of the world is here and the main good guys are STILL bickering!-but it didnt feel right. Mat vs Elayne springs to mind. Seriously cheesed me off when she wanted control over the Band, and it cheesed me off even more that Mat lost that encounter. Not because I like Mat a bit more than Elayne, but because it seemed (to me at least) that that arguement didnt need to occur for Mat to join Andors military. Maybe arguement isnt the right word, but you get the idea.

 

Having said all that.... We are getting the end books, against all odds. And whatever anyone says, Brandon can write Rand. Happy days!

 

P.S. The Tempest of Tempest turns, and Tempests come and pass, leaving tempests that become tempest. Tempest fades to tempest, and even tempest is long forgotten when the Tempest that gave it birth comes again.

[yoniy0]

Yes, I definitely think Brandon didn't get Elayne all that well. That's probably because he didn't had to for TGS, so Mat got tagged as the one character Brandon needed to work on. That particular scene, however, was nicely done, I think. Not the prose (ichk, what was it Thom said at the end?!?), but the way they danced around each other, each one missing the other's agenda completely. And yet both got what they wanted out of it.

[sleepinghour]

In addition I will state that partially I'm concerned to the degree to which our criticisms have reached him. Certainly he has often and repeatedly betrayed no sign of awareness of what are some of the key problems that are discussed time and again--one need look no further than his assurance that Mat is the only character that was truly OOC.

 

I also get the impression he's mostly unaware of what fans perceive to be issues with his writing. He knows his prose could be better and that people were unhappy about the messed up timeline, but probably not much of the other stuff since many of the issues that plagued TGS also appeared in ToM.

 

I do think it's up to fans to share any concerns with Brandon instead of expecting him to seek them out. Brandon reportedly avoids WoT forums (which is completely understandable and probably beneficial for his sanity), and people rarely seem to approach Brandon with anything but praise except to say that Mat felt off in TGS. So it's no wonder that's the only thing that got improved between TGS and ToM. I think most of us feel we were lucky to get the books at all, and Brandon has always been exceptionally kind and giving to fans, so there is a strong sense of "we should all be grateful and not complain" in WoT fandom.

[Lacanos]

Are you implying that he's irresponsibly negligent in his treatment of Jordan's work?

 

I'm stating what I've stated.

 

Edit: No, that's a cop out, and me shying away from my responsibilities. Yes, I do think that Brandon has not fully realised the responsibilities that he accepted when he took on the job. Again this is not to say I blame him for not doing as good a job as Jordan could have, nor that I'm ignoring that there are a great many other players in the final product--Team Jordan, Tor, the Beta's... but yes, I'm concerned with Brandon's apparent perceptions of his responsibility toward the Wheel.

 

In addition I will state that partially I'm concerned to the degree to which our criticisms have reached him. Certainly he has often and repeatedly betrayed no sign of awareness of what are some of the key problems that are discussed time and again--one need look no further than his assurance that Mat is the only character that was truly OOC.

 

Sorry Luckers, but I have to disagree with a big plank of your criticism here.

As a writer, Brandon has to assess what he thinks the best way to tell the story is. Perhaps he attempted to copy RJ's style to begin with, and realised he could never come close to matching it. Hence he decided to write in a style he personally is more comfortable with. Logically, this seems sensible. Now, you may have prized certain aspects within the series that Brandon cannot emulate, but were he to give you a "poor man's imitation", then the last few books would undoubtedly have been the worst of the series, simply because they'd have been done the same but by someone not able to "do the same" as well.

Were he to attempt to foreshadow as you wish - in a way specifically designed for fans like you and I, who re-read the books time and time again to pick out such elements, he may have come to a judgement that the foreshadowing he was capable of was simply too obvious. And would thus ruin the story. Your assertion that he never tried seems a little weak - every writer settles upon a style with which they are best able to tell their story.

 

As for the state of ToM on release, I'll completely agree it was not acceptable. However, his judgement can only go so far in this matter. If Harriet was satisfied with the state of the books, it is not for Brandon to overrule her.

Ultimately, he can only do the best job he thinks he is capable of. And ultimately, it's very hard to convey a character that one finds less exciting as well as one does one finds moreso. He perhaps has a duty to spend as long as possible on this. However, I feel his duty is to the vast majority of fans who want the story as soon as is practicable. On a purely economic argument - the longer it takes him to finish, the more fans will drift away.

[TristanWebb]

Avoiding the fandom seems odd. There are people here that can almost recite the series word for word. I understand that Team Jordan has just as much knowlege of the series as anyone reading them, but their view is also clouded by knowing more than us, so things can slip past because they were in the notes but not told to us. It seems to me if you had a resource as good as WoT fandom you would use it, even if you did have to slog though a fair bit of dross to get to the gold.

[Maleshub]

Avoiding the fandom seems odd. There are people here that can almost recite the series word for word. I understand that Team Jordan has just as much knowlege of the series as anyone reading them, but their view is also clouded by knowing more than us, so things can slip past because they were in the notes but not told to us. It seems to me if you had a resource as good as WoT fandom you would use it, even if you did have to slog though a fair bit of dross to get to the gold.

 

Totally agree, there is a uniqueness the WoT. It has been around for 20+ years; and has been read and reread tens of millions of times by fans (if not more) and debated for decades.

[A. Pseudonym]

I'm stating what I've stated.

 

Edit: No, that's a cop out, and me shying away from my responsibilities. Yes, I do think that Brandon has not fully realised the responsibilities that he accepted when he took on the job. Again this is not to say I blame him for not doing as good a job as Jordan could have, nor that I'm ignoring that there are a great many other players in the final product--Team Jordan, Tor, the Beta's... but yes, I'm concerned with Brandon's apparent perceptions of his responsibility toward the Wheel.

 

I think that he does the best that he can. With the emphasis on can. This is a matter of not only the ability to write good prose, but to understand the nature of psychology and interpersonal relations that Jordan displays in his incredibly complex characters, their subtle interactions and at times their own obliviousness to what they are doing and what is going on around them.

 

Sanderson is a boy. Immature, naive, childish. His knowledge of himself and others and consequently his ability to fictionalize this understanding via another man's work, a man who understood these things and in fact based his work largely around them - is poor. But to begin to write a character as distinct as one from WOT, one has to be able to understand that character, empathize with it, see the fictional world through it's eyes and even to be able to appreciate the limits of that unique perception.... which is a common theme here.

 

This is why characters like Cadsuane and Mat have become offensive caricatures of themselves. Sanderson's understanding of them is simplistic and as a result his portrayal of them is too. But readers who have been with series a long time see this and note it. Thus the dissatisfaction.

 

But not only that, there's the whole metaphysical and mythological symbology underlying everything in WOT that demonstrates at least a sort of broad-mindedness and capacity to assemble diverse elements into a cohesive, coherent whole. The gender divide underlying the Light side. The moralizing that the pursuit of selfishness leads one inevitably to be used and cast aside by a greater power that underpins the Shadow. The quantum physics references throughout; multiverse = mirror worlds, parallel worlds; balefire having effects backwards in time; etc.

 

Sanderson has absolutely no capacity to first envision, let alone write, that sort of thing. His mind is very much a limited one, his experiences also. And it shows.

 

In addition I will state that partially I'm concerned to the degree to which our criticisms have reached him. Certainly he has often and repeatedly betrayed no sign of awareness of what are some of the key problems that are discussed time and again--one need look no further than his assurance that Mat is the only character that was truly OOC.

 

You seem to know him personally and I sense an amount of restraint on your part, but I am not so bound. I think for him to seriously confront the criticism of his work would result in a titanic collapse of confidence on his part and probably interfere with the publishing of AMOL. Or, he'd get defensive and start telling people off, closing his mind in the process. Which would do nobody any favours. Such is reality.

 

But I don't think he has it in him to do it justice, whether he is aware of his limitations or not. He can assemble notes into a novel format .... and you can tell where the seams are.... but that's all he can do. I'm just glad somebody is finishing it. Though sometimes I wonder if simply putting Jordan's notes out there would have been a better move. Not financially for Tor, obviously, but in the context of how I and others will remember how the story finally ends in the years to come.

 

I have offered the possibility that down the line when this has all cooled off a little, somebody new might be chosen to rewrite the 3 Sanderson books and do them properly. If not in a Jordan style, then at least in a manner in which the identity of the characters and the general thrust of the series' spirit can be revived.

[Mr Ares]

Are you implying that he's irresponsibly negligent in his treatment of Jordan's work?

 

I'm stating what I've stated.

 

Edit: No, that's a cop out, and me shying away from my responsibilities. Yes, I do think that Brandon has not fully realised the responsibilities that he accepted when he took on the job. Again this is not to say I blame him for not doing as good a job as Jordan could have, nor that I'm ignoring that there are a great many other players in the final product--Team Jordan, Tor, the Beta's... but yes, I'm concerned with Brandon's apparent perceptions of his responsibility toward the Wheel.

 

In addition I will state that partially I'm concerned to the degree to which our criticisms have reached him. Certainly he has often and repeatedly betrayed no sign of awareness of what are some of the key problems that are discussed time and again--one need look no further than his assurance that Mat is the only character that was truly OOC.

 

Sorry Luckers, but I have to disagree with a big plank of your criticism here.

As a writer, Brandon has to assess what he thinks the best way to tell the story is. Perhaps he attempted to copy RJ's style to begin with, and realised he could never come close to matching it. Hence he decided to write in a style he personally is more comfortable with. Logically, this seems sensible. Now, you may have prized certain aspects within the series that Brandon cannot emulate, but were he to give you a "poor man's imitation", then the last few books would undoubtedly have been the worst of the series, simply because they'd have been done the same but by someone not able to "do the same" as well.

Were he to attempt to foreshadow as you wish - in a way specifically designed for fans like you and I, who re-read the books time and time again to pick out such elements, he may have come to a judgement that the foreshadowing he was capable of was simply too obvious. And would thus ruin the story. Your assertion that he never tried seems a little weak - every writer settles upon a style with which they are best able to tell their story.

 

As for the state of ToM on release, I'll completely agree it was not acceptable. However, his judgement can only go so far in this matter. If Harriet was satisfied with the state of the books, it is not for Brandon to overrule her.

I disagree. If he is not satisfied with the quality of the work, if he doesn't think it is yet good enough, he shouldn't publish.

 

 

Ultimately, he can only do the best job he thinks he is capable of. And ultimately, it's very hard to convey a character that one finds less exciting as well as one does one finds moreso. He perhaps has a duty to spend as long as possible on this. However, I feel his duty is to the vast majority of fans who want the story as soon as is practicable. On a purely economic argument - the longer it takes him to finish, the more fans will drift away.

Fans can be such an unpleasable lot. Some of them want the book right now. Some want the book to be perfect. Some want it to be perfect and to have it now. You can't please all of the people all of the time. I see his duty being more to write the best story he can, within the framework RJ has given him. As for fans drifting away, bear in mind that fans also discover the series for the first time. And GRRM spent five years writing AFFC, and even longer writing ADWD, and both topped the bestseller lists ASoIaF did not suffer unduly because of those long delays. Certainly with ToM, it wasn't urgent that the book be released when it was. A delay, while undesirable for those that want immediate gratification, is not going to kill the series. They could have taken more time, they chose not to. If the outcome is flawed as a result, BS and Team Jordan must bear responsibility for their failure in this regard. One of the problems CoT had was it being released to satisfy the urge for a book, rather than taking the time needed to sort out the problems the structure created. While TGS and ToM have different flaws to CoT, it is true in both cases that publishing rather than rewriting did result in a book that was not as good as it could have been had different choices been made.

[Luckers]

In addition I will state that partially I'm concerned to the degree to which our criticisms have reached him.

Speaking of which, in your conversations last month, did you get the chance to discuss it openly?

 

No. I was somewhat of a coward. I apologised for some of the more critical positions I'd taken about his work (both privately to him and publicly), mainly because in some (mostly the private ones) I became perhaps more heated than I should have. But no, I did not openly discuss this with him. That being said Peter assured me that Brandon was aware of the points I'd laid out in the critique email he asked me to send him, and that they were being taken into account with the writing of aMoL.

 

Which is actually somewhat odd--one of the questions, regarding Carlinya and the raven viewing, was the headliners for one of my major criticisims--that continuity errors that were being applied quick bandages and thereafter shrugged off (the Dream Battle was another)--he seemed to think this was not a problem at all, and that RJ had answered it (which he hadn't publicly, but may well have done in the notes)... but irresective of whether it was a valid criticism, he seemed unaware it was a criticism at all...

 

In addition I will state that partially I'm concerned to the degree to which our criticisms have reached him. Certainly he has often and repeatedly betrayed no sign of awareness of what are some of the key problems that are discussed time and again--one need look no further than his assurance that Mat is the only character that was truly OOC.

 

I also get the impression he's mostly unaware of what fans perceive to be issues with his writing. He knows his prose could be better and that people were unhappy about the messed up timeline, but probably not much of the other stuff since many of the issues that plagued TGS also appeared in ToM.

 

I do think it's up to fans to share any concerns with Brandon instead of expecting him to seek them out. Brandon reportedly avoids WoT forums (which is completely understandable and probably beneficial for his sanity), and people rarely seem to approach Brandon with anything but praise except to say that Mat felt off in TGS. So it's no wonder that's the only thing that got improved between TGS and ToM. I think most of us feel we were lucky to get the books at all, and Brandon has always been exceptionally kind and giving to fans, so there is a strong sense of "we should all be grateful and not complain" in WoT fandom.

 

I feel a little different given Brandon requested my email directly, but seemed not to have read it (the Carlinya thing wasn't the only disconnect). The impression I get though is that Peter did read it, and related it to him--which is fair enough, I suppose, but still does not seem to be working very well.

 

Brandon spoke also of his 'learning to not hear criticism', in response to a question about destructively negative criticism, which again is more than fair, but I wonder how strong his shields are, and what they inadvertantly block.

 

Are you implying that he's irresponsibly negligent in his treatment of Jordan's work?

 

I'm stating what I've stated.

 

Edit: No, that's a cop out, and me shying away from my responsibilities. Yes, I do think that Brandon has not fully realised the responsibilities that he accepted when he took on the job. Again this is not to say I blame him for not doing as good a job as Jordan could have, nor that I'm ignoring that there are a great many other players in the final product--Team Jordan, Tor, the Beta's... but yes, I'm concerned with Brandon's apparent perceptions of his responsibility toward the Wheel.

 

In addition I will state that partially I'm concerned to the degree to which our criticisms have reached him. Certainly he has often and repeatedly betrayed no sign of awareness of what are some of the key problems that are discussed time and again--one need look no further than his assurance that Mat is the only character that was truly OOC.

 

Sorry Luckers, but I have to disagree with a big plank of your criticism here.

As a writer, Brandon has to assess what he thinks the best way to tell the story is. Perhaps he attempted to copy RJ's style to begin with, and realised he could never come close to matching it. Hence he decided to write in a style he personally is more comfortable with. Logically, this seems sensible. Now, you may have prized certain aspects within the series that Brandon cannot emulate, but were he to give you a "poor man's imitation", then the last few books would undoubtedly have been the worst of the series, simply because they'd have been done the same but by someone not able to "do the same" as well.

 

You present an argument against someone who is saying that he is unhappy Brandon did not do as well as Jordan could have. I am not. I am making the point that I feel Brandon has not done as well as Brandon could have.

 

Were he to attempt to foreshadow as you wish - in a way specifically designed for fans like you and I, who re-read the books time and time again to pick out such elements, he may have come to a judgement that the foreshadowing he was capable of was simply too obvious. And would thus ruin the story. Your assertion that he never tried seems a little weak - every writer settles upon a style with which they are best able to tell their story.

 

The problem is that he did not settle on a style that he thought would best tell his story, rather he decided that he couldn't tell a certain part of the story as well as RJ, and therefore simply 'slammed it on the table'. His words.

 

I'm not unaware of the issues facing a writer writing a world not their own, and I would never ask Brandon to be RJ. But I would ask, and not think it wrong to ask, that he extend himself. That he move out of his comfort zone and do the best he can. Not the best RJ could, but the best HE could. I don't think that's wrong. In fact, I think anything short of that tacitly admits we don't regard Brandon as a good writer, that we're simply putting up with him because it will bring us the end of the story.

 

I personally prefer to hold him to a higher standard and be seen as rude to the man who has given us so much, than to politely dismiss him.

 

As for the state of ToM on release, I'll completely agree it was not acceptable. However, his judgement can only go so far in this matter. If Harriet was satisfied with the state of the books, it is not for Brandon to overrule her.

 

You speak as if Harriet published Towers of Midnight against Brandon's wishes, or before Brandon regarded it to be ready. In point of fact, Brandon told me directly that he thought TofM was ready for publishing. Which is in part why I had such an issue with his statement about the extra delay. 'Harriet needs more time'. No inference to the possibility that Brandon needs to take more time. I said as much to him, in an email conversation we had, but I was never sure he truly understood what I was talking about. He assured me that he had come to agree with Harriet's need for more time... but the other side of the coin...?

 

So yes, I'm empathetic to his situation, but by the same note I hold him to a high standard (he said I had a right to, by the way), and I don't feel that's wrong. Too many are willing to say 'Brandon's not Jordan', or even 'Brandon's a shit writer, but we have to be thankful to get anything'. How bout we say 'Brandon's awesome', and hold him to that standard? That's what I do, though it seems to make me the bad guy 90% of the time.

 

Ultimately, he can only do the best job he thinks he is capable of. And ultimately, it's very hard to convey a character that one finds less exciting as well as one does one finds moreso. He perhaps has a duty to spend as long as possible on this. However, I feel his duty is to the vast majority of fans who want the story as soon as is practicable. On a purely economic argument - the longer it takes him to finish, the more fans will drift away.

 

Ultimately he can only do the best job that he's capable of. It's the 'he thinks' addition that I believe is causing all the problems.

 

That being said I do sympathise. I'm just a hard ass.

[Agitel]

The problem is that he did not settle on a style that he thought would best tell his story, rather he decided that he couldn't tell a certain part of the story as well as RJ, and therefore simply 'slammed it on the table'. His words.

 

I was wondering if you could provide more context to this quote. I ask because that sounds like how he approaches writing in general. If he's "not feeling" a chapter he just hammers it out anyway and then comes back to it in revisions.

[avernite]

I'll be honest in saying I read the books up to WH in translation.

 

That said, I note few obvious differences between the books; the letter to Elayne was odd to me, but apart from that all seemed as before. I can therefore sympathize with Brandon; it's extremely hard already to find the errors in your own work, but if at least some of those reading the work don't see the errors it is even more difficult.

 

This is also why I don't think saying 'my editors need more time' is a bad thing. At some point, the author is done, has written a version he agrees with, and if he reads it again will only change things without obviously improving them. At that point, no amount of time for the author will make it better, while more time for the feedback to the author would still be perfectly useful. And usually results in the author saying 'ah wait, now that you mention it, this obviously needs improvement'.

[Suttree]

This is also why I don't think saying 'my editors need more time' is a bad thing. At some point, the author is done, has written a version he agrees with, and if he reads it again will only change things without obviously improving them.

 

Unfortunately the process Brandon has for writing doesn't lend itself to this. His first few drafts are extremely rough and there hasn't been enough of them done in the past.

 

 

I personally prefer to hold him to a higher standard and be seen as rude to the man who has given us so much, than to politely dismiss him.

 

So should we all...good man Luckers.

 

As an aside I am always astounded when people list TGS and ToM as some of their favorites in the series. I understand the pace picks up and some cool things happen but there are such large scale issues with the quality and writing. These two have limited "rereadability" and don't hold up. That quite simply is not acceptable for AMoL. This is the final work upon which RJ's life's legacy will be judged.