How Sanderson changed the naration

[damandred]

The fact that you don't seem to even understand some of the examples that I pointed out leads me to conclude that you are in no position to qualify the statement that RJ is not even close to Faulkner or Nabokob as an author. Just randomly picking two famous and respected authors from history and announcing that RJ is nowhere close to them is a pretty silly way to prove your point. How about instead of trying to say RJ was not a world famous and historical author you comment on Sanderon's writing and give examples of how it is equal to Robert Jordans?

How about you cut down on the patronising tone? I understand fine, I simply disagree. And I never said Sanderson's writing is equal to Jordan's. I think he's a bit worse overall, but the gap is nowhere near as big as Jordan's biggest fanboys think.

 

I picked Nabokov and Faulkner to illustrate how absurd your claim that Sanderson's style "especially poor when comparing it to RJ." You made it sound as if Jordan is some historical great author with a style which can be used as a kind of gold standard for writing, but inarguably this is not the case at all. Even if we considering fantasy only, there are plenty of authors who are clearly much better with their prose than Jordan.

 

 

Like who?

I don't have a Lit degree or am especially qualified to place authors on pedal stalls, but I read a lot of books and know what I like.

I don't think there has been an author in fantasy certainly or popular fiction who has so captured my imagination with the first few lines of their prologue. And I can honestly say hand on heart that none (well maybe Cot) of the latter books ever disappointed me.

As I've already said I'm not qualified to pass judgement on what is great writing, but in my humble opinion I thought RJ got the balance in his writing between descriptive prose and catchy dialogue perfectly, matched with a keen wit (few authors can make me LoL so) I would put him up there with the best authors of popular fiction of whatever genre.

(But that's just me, personally when trying to read so called classic authors I fall asleep, with a few exceptions, obscure russian writers too)

Now BS. Yeah I think he could of did a better job, and agree with a lot with what got said above about his choices. I know he said he would not try too imitate RJ's style and I think its right that he didn't. But some of his work in WoT seems to me blatant a temps to stamp himself onto the story. (Hope I'm wrong) the Women rant by Mat in tGS and THE LETTER and boots in TOM obviously. And Rand come on, I know he's changed but how the hell did LTT inspire so much leadership in the AoL if he was such a wet fish going about talking like Master Yoda after a game of scrabble,have not got the book with me but when Rand goes back to the stone and Min tells him about Alanna and he chats some spiel about avalanches and such, just had me thinking blah.

I'm grateful to BS for finishing the series and I know he said he wouldn't copy RJ's style but I wish he would keep characters in character, (if you get my meaning) some of the Mat scenes I don't think Jordan would of written anything like, BS must know that Too. Its one thing not copying RJ's style quite another to hijack characters.

[MarkDiLillo]

The fact that you don't seem to even understand some of the examples that I pointed out leads me to conclude that you are in no position to qualify the statement that RJ is not even close to Faulkner or Nabokob as an author. Just randomly picking two famous and respected authors from history and announcing that RJ is nowhere close to them is a pretty silly way to prove your point. How about instead of trying to say RJ was not a world famous and historical author you comment on Sanderon's writing and give examples of how it is equal to Robert Jordans?

How about you cut down on the patronising tone? I understand fine, I simply disagree. And I never said Sanderson's writing is equal to Jordan's. I think he's a bit worse overall, but the gap is nowhere near as big as Jordan's biggest fanboys think.

 

I picked Nabokov and Faulkner to illustrate how absurd your claim that Sanderson's style "especially poor when comparing it to RJ." You made it sound as if Jordan is some historical great author with a style which can be used as a kind of gold standard for writing, but inarguably this is not the case at all. Even if we considering fantasy only, there are plenty of authors who are clearly much better with their prose than Jordan.

 

Ok, so name them and substantiate your claim with reasons and examples as to why they are better.

 

Unless there is some kind of universal ranking system out there that I am unware of that you can link me to? Seems to me that you are just making a completely baseless assumption about something that is very subjective and are pretending its true for the sake of your own argument.

[MarkDiLillo]

The fact that you don't seem to even understand some of the examples that I pointed out leads me to conclude that you are in no position to qualify the statement that RJ is not even close to Faulkner or Nabokob as an author. Just randomly picking two famous and respected authors from history and announcing that RJ is nowhere close to them is a pretty silly way to prove your point. How about instead of trying to say RJ was not a world famous and historical author you comment on Sanderon's writing and give examples of how it is equal to Robert Jordans?

How about you cut down on the patronising tone? I understand fine, I simply disagree. And I never said Sanderson's writing is equal to Jordan's. I think he's a bit worse overall, but the gap is nowhere near as big as Jordan's biggest fanboys think.

 

I picked Nabokov and Faulkner to illustrate how absurd your claim that Sanderson's style "especially poor when comparing it to RJ." You made it sound as if Jordan is some historical great author with a style which can be used as a kind of gold standard for writing, but inarguably this is not the case at all. Even if we considering fantasy only, there are plenty of authors who are clearly much better with their prose than Jordan.

 

 

Like who?

I don't have a Lit degree or am especially qualified to place authors on pedal stalls, but I read a lot of books and know what I like.

I don't think there has been an author in fantasy certainly or popular fiction who has so captured my imagination with the first few lines of their prologue. And I can honestly say hand on heart that none (well maybe Cot) of the latter books ever disappointed me.

As I've already said I'm not qualified to pass judgement on what is great writing, but in my humble opinion I thought RJ got the balance in his writing between descriptive prose and catchy dialogue perfectly, matched with a keen wit (few authors can make me LoL so) I would put him up there with the best authors of popular fiction of whatever genre.

(But that's just me, personally when trying to read so called classic authors I fall asleep, with a few exceptions, obscure russian writers too)

Now BS. Yeah I think he could of did a better job, and agree with a lot with what got said above about his choices. I know he said he would not try too imitate RJ's style and I think its right that he didn't. But some of his work in WoT seems to me blatant a temps to stamp himself onto the story. (Hope I'm wrong) the Women rant by Mat in tGS and THE LETTER and boots in TOM obviously. And Rand come on, I know he's changed but how the hell did LTT inspire so much leadership in the AoL if he was such a wet fish going about talking like Master Yoda after a game of scrabble,have not got the book with me but when Rand goes back to the stone and Min tells him about Alanna and he chats some spiel about avalanches and such, just had me thinking blah.

I'm grateful to BS for finishing the series and I know he said he wouldn't copy RJ's style but I wish he would keep characters in character, (if you get my meaning) some of the Mat scenes I don't think Jordan would of written anything like, BS must know that Too. Its one thing not copying RJ's style quite another to hijack characters.

 

This is the big issue that I had too...he didn't keep the characters in character. He wrote them how he interpreted them over his years as a fan and he wrote what he wanted to see from them. He very obviously did not try to sit down and figure out how RJ wrote them. In fact, he flat out said he will not try to immitate RJ's writing - which IMO is a mind blowing thing to say when you are trying to finish his work. That statement right there should have been enough for Team Jordan to get another author because it essentially confirmed that the guy wasn't going to get into the details and try to sit in RJ's seat.

[SuperFade]

In fact, he flat out said he will not try to immitate RJ's writing - which IMO is a mind blowing thing to say when you are trying to finish his work. That statement right there should have been enough for Team Jordan to get another author because it essentially confirmed that the guy wasn't going to get into the details and try to sit in RJ's seat.

 

He actually said he wouldn't try to imitate his writing style. Which is a good thing because as much as I like WoT it really was a breath of fresh air not having to read paragraph after useless paragraph describing ornately elaborate dresses.

[damandred]

The fact that you don't seem to even understand some of the examples that I pointed out leads me to conclude that you are in no position to qualify the statement that RJ is not even close to Faulkner or Nabokob as an author. Just randomly picking two famous and respected authors from history and announcing that RJ is nowhere close to them is a pretty silly way to prove your point. How about instead of trying to say RJ was not a world famous and historical author you comment on Sanderon's writing and give examples of how it is equal to Robert Jordans?

How about you cut down on the patronising tone? I understand fine, I simply disagree. And I never said Sanderson's writing is equal to Jordan's. I think he's a bit worse overall, but the gap is nowhere near as big as Jordan's biggest fanboys think.

 

I picked Nabokov and Faulkner to illustrate how absurd your claim that Sanderson's style "especially poor when comparing it to RJ." You made it sound as if Jordan is some historical great author with a style which can be used as a kind of gold standard for writing, but inarguably this is not the case at all. Even if we considering fantasy only, there are plenty of authors who are clearly much better with their prose than Jordan.

 

 

Like who?

I don't have a Lit degree or am especially qualified to place authors on pedal stalls, but I read a lot of books and know what I like.

I don't think there has been an author in fantasy certainly or popular fiction who has so captured my imagination with the first few lines of their prologue. And I can honestly say hand on heart that none (well maybe Cot) of the latter books ever disappointed me.

As I've already said I'm not qualified to pass judgement on what is great writing, but in my humble opinion I thought RJ got the balance in his writing between descriptive prose and catchy dialogue perfectly, matched with a keen wit (few authors can make me LoL so) I would put him up there with the best authors of popular fiction of whatever genre.

(But that's just me, personally when trying to read so called classic authors I fall asleep, with a few exceptions, obscure russian writers too)

Now BS. Yeah I think he could of did a better job, and agree with a lot with what got said above about his choices. I know he said he would not try too imitate RJ's style and I think its right that he didn't. But some of his work in WoT seems to me blatant a temps to stamp himself onto the story. (Hope I'm wrong) the Women rant by Mat in tGS and THE LETTER and boots in TOM obviously. And Rand come on, I know he's changed but how the hell did LTT inspire so much leadership in the AoL if he was such a wet fish going about talking like Master Yoda after a game of scrabble,have not got the book with me but when Rand goes back to the stone and Min tells him about Alanna and he chats some spiel about avalanches and such, just had me thinking blah.

I'm grateful to BS for finishing the series and I know he said he wouldn't copy RJ's style but I wish he would keep characters in character, (if you get my meaning) some of the Mat scenes I don't think Jordan would of written anything like, BS must know that Too. Its one thing not copying RJ's style quite another to hijack characters.

 

This is the big issue that I had too...he didn't keep the characters in character. He wrote them how he interpreted them over his years as a fan and he wrote what he wanted to see from them. He very obviously did not try to sit down and figure out how RJ wrote them. In fact, he flat out said he will not try to immitate RJ's writing - which IMO is a mind blowing thing to say when you are trying to finish his work. That statement right there should have been enough for Team Jordan to get another author because it essentially confirmed that the guy wasn't going to get into the details and try to sit in RJ's seat.

 

I don't know the reasons for BS's appointment(maybe cause he was such a fan and had enjoyed moderate success?), but I think (and I'm no expert) that to approach a project like that finishing WoT, you have to put something of yourself in there.

The impression I got was RJ left some scenes already written but mostly notes and I feel IMO that to build the story just based on those notes, copying joradans style, painstakingly trying to write the story the way he would of done it would be impossible and would ultimately fall short as a cheap forgery.

So I respect BS's stance to write in his own style but think its possible to do that and still keep the characters consistent with themselves.

I think BS has failed to do that, and a lot of people are venting their frustration because of that.

Which they have a right to do.

[Manscher]

You know, I really hope he'll do annotations to these books after wards, with notes on what parts were RJs and what was his. It would be interesting to see how many of these "out of character" scenes people complain about was actually written by RJ himself.

 

A lot of people specifically seem to complain about Mat. A wonderful example is people complaints about Mats rant about women in the start of TGS, go back into the previous books, and you'll notice that he complains about women in a very similar fashion. He's just over exaggerating now, as a respond to the fact that two of things he dislike the most have happened to him, he's married, and he's a prince.

[Suttree]

You know, I really hope he'll do annotations to these books after wards, with notes on what parts were RJs and what was his. It would be interesting to see how many of these "out of character" scenes people complain about was actually written by RJ himself.

 

It has already happened some with the ToG sequence, I always laugh every time someone blames BS for that. Regardless the lines are pretty black and white at times especially with Mat. Very safe to say RJ did not write the Seven Striped Lass, Hinderstrap, or "the Letter" and he most certainly never put "saidared" or "bloody ashes" to paper.

 

Often times Brandon gives us versions of character with little depth. A good example provided by Luckers was the Cadsuane and Tam confrontation. Instead of being the "remarkably adaptable" woman RJ wrote about in his notes we get a caricature version of a dumb bully that is then called a dumb bully by Tam. End result is a scene with so much promise ends up being flat and very literal, carried not by the writing but by the fact that people have been wanting to see Cads get her comeuppance for so long.

[damandred]

You know, I really hope he'll do annotations to these books after wards, with notes on what parts were RJs and what was his. It would be interesting to see how many of these "out of character" scenes people complain about was actually written by RJ himself.

 

A lot of people specifically seem to complain about Mat. A wonderful example is people complaints about Mats rant about women in the start of TGS, go back into the previous books, and you'll notice that he complains about women in a very similar fashion. He's just over exaggerating now, as a respond to the fact that two of things he dislike the most have happened to him, he's married, and he's a prince.

 

 

Mat might have held the same views about women as expressed in TGS, but would never voice them in that way. The fact that I noticed the difference as soon as reading it (BS's first intro of Mat in his books), as did many others, point to it not being the same. For me the differences between RJ's ToM Mat and BS's are plain to see.

Some people like BS's Mat more than Jordans. I don't.

[The Fisher King]

You know, I really hope he'll do annotations to these books after wards, with notes on what parts were RJs and what was his. It would be interesting to see how many of these "out of character" scenes people complain about was actually written by RJ himself.

 

It has already happened some with the ToG sequence, I always laugh every time someone blames BS for that. Regardless the lines are pretty black and white at times especially with Mat. Very safe to say RJ did not write the Seven Striped Lass, Hinderstrap, or "the Letter" and he most certainly never put "saidared" or "bloody ashes" to paper.

 

Often times Brandon gives us versions of character with little depth. A good example provided by Luckers was the Cadsuane and Tam confrontation. Instead of being the "remarkably adaptable" woman RJ wrote about in his notes we get a caricature version of a dumb bully that is then called a dumb bully by Tam. End result is a scene with so much promise ends up being flat and very literal, carried not by the writing but by the fact that people have been wanting to see Cads get her comeuppance for so long.

 

Suttree...Ive told you: A Seven Striped Lass is a veeeery well-done 'Mat Chapter.' Certainly the best - by far - penned by Sanderson.

 

I was another (and Ive been there since 1990, having had the honor to meet and speak with Mr Jordan/Rigney) who was greatly disappointed in what could have been an epic scene: Tam and Cadsuane. The biggest thing to me was Cadsuane using the Power to bully Tam. Cads would NEVER do it THAT way. In fact, Cads would be disgusted by any Sister who lacked the subtlety and intelligence to deal with a man without resorting to use of the Power. Cads was always above such tactics.

 

 

Fish

[Finnssss22]

and he most certainly never put "saidared" or "bloody ashes" to paper.

 

 

 

Really, cause with a quick Ideal Seek check, there are actually 48 separate instances of RJ putting "bloody ashes" to paper.

There's even an instance of RJ penning the phrase "blood and bloody flaming ashes"

 

 

Anywho...I've also been reading the series almost since the beginning, more than 20 years now and while I do see subtle and sometimes not so subtle differences between BS and RJ.

Not all of those differences are bad though and even the ones that could be considered "bad" are not as bad as some like to make out while any of the good is ignored.

 

Sometimes, as in the case of the "bloody ashes" comment above, I wonder how much of the "bad" is real and how much of it is imagined or at the very least, exaggerated extensively.

 

I for one am just happy to have this series seen to its conclusion, it's been a looooong time coming.

No, it's not being finished by RJ but it is getting finished and contrary to how some feel, it is NOT being completed by some hack. BS is more than just merely a competent writer, he's just not RJ but who is?

 

I also wonder how many of the people who are dead set against BS have been reading the series for a long time?

I mean, no offense here but being one of the people that had to endure the almost decade between aCoS to KoD, I have no issue what so ever with tGS or ToM.

I rank either book well ahead of PoD or Cot, that's for bloody sure.

[Suttree]

and he most certainly never put "saidared" or "bloody ashes" to paper.

 

 

 

Really, cause with a quick Ideal Seek check, there are actually 48 separate instances of RJ putting "bloody ashes" to paper.

 

Correct as in "blood & bloody ashes". Never just bloody ashes alone. Nice try though.

http://idealseek.no-ip.com/IdealSeek.cgi?q=bloody+ashes

 

As a side I don't think anyone(well maybe 1 person) is dead set against BS. Even the critics have thanked him and expressed belief he is working hard to make things better. For the record I have been reading since The Dragon Reborn. To my mind the only RJ book TGS and ToM finish ahead of is CoT. tPoD has a few of the best written scenes in the entire series. "A Cup of Sleep" and the Damona Mountain campaign.

[Finnssss22]

and he most certainly never put "saidared" or "bloody ashes" to paper.

 

 

 

Really, cause with a quick Ideal Seek check, there are actually 48 separate instances of RJ putting "bloody ashes" to paper.

 

Correct as in "blood & bloody ashes". Never just bloody ashes alone. Nice try though.

 

As a side I don't think anyone(well maybe 1 person) is dead set against BS. Even the critics have thanked him and expressed belief he is working hard to make things better. For the record I have been reading since The Dragon Reborn. To my mind the only RJ book TGS and ToM finish ahead of is CoT. tPoD has a few of the best written scenes in the entire series. "A Cup of Sleep" and the Damona Mountain campaign.

 

 

And that's just it, anyone who expects BS to be RJ is just fooling themselves and what's more, poisoning themselves from enjoying the conclusion of the series.

 

No one is trying to replace RJ, that's impossible. All we can hope is for BS to honour RJ and the series the best he can and I think that is exactly what he has done.

And quite frankly, BS was RJ's choice to finish it and that alone is enough for me.

[Suttree]

And quite frankly, BS was RJ's choice to finish it and that alone is enough for me.

 

The author was chosen after RJ's death by Harriet and yes I trust her judgement.

 

As for "bloody ashes", yes it is a small thing. But something that could very easily have been researched to keep the feel consistent. The problem with small things is they can add up very quickly and all of a sudden there is a significant change.

[sleepinghour]

There's an interview with Brandon from last year where he describes his writing process. I've posted the quote below, but the short version is that on his first draft, he simply lays out what needs to happen in the book. Because of that, he does a lot of telling rather than showing, with people standing up and monologuing. He then takes these things out in later drafts and adds more description. Usually there's also something wrong with the characters that needs to be fixed later on.

 

I think that explains much of what went wrong with TGS and ToM. There simply wasn't enough time for him to do all these fixes. And so we're left with a lot of scenes where characters, in Brandon's own words, "stand up and monologue." This can be said of many of Rand's scenes. There's very little subtlety, and sometimes not a lot of description beyond 'he said' and 'she said.' Some of the characters are noticeably off.

 

I don't think Harriet could have found an author that loves the series more than Brandon. He's clearly doing his best and wants to do this series right. But it's equally clear that the quality of these books have suffered from being too rushed. And some of the updates he's posted about AMoL left me with a sinking feeling that AMoL will turn out exactly the same. I really hope I'm wrong about that, but it sounds as though he seriously underestimated the time it would take to finish AMoL and is now left with less time for revisions. At Comic-Con in July last year, Brandon said he had to turn in AMoL in November. After that deadline went by, Brandon's assistant posted: "Brandon is writing a complete draft and then doing a revision or two before sending a polished draft to Team Jordan on December 31st (and that will be the first draft they see)." Instead, Brandon had only finished the first draft on December 21, yet already has 70% of the second draft done despite going to Taiwan, and expects to send the finished second draft to Harriet in a week. If Brandon's first drafts really are that bare-bones, that doesn't sound like nearly enough time to add more to the story and polish it. 30% in a week sounds especially fast. Again, I hope I'm completely wrong about this. But it's something I'm increasingly getting a bad feeling about when reading his updates about the book.

 

I write my drafts beginning to end, pretty quick drafts. And then I need to spend a great deal of time tweaking them, fixing them, going over them again. I write my books much like a sculptor might create a sculpture. And we start...you know, the first pass over doesn't make it look much like a fix; you're just chopping off chunks. And then you refine, and then you refine, and then finally you're sanding. Get these little tiny imperfections out. And that's how I write.

 

My first pass through is...I'm laying down character, dialogue, and plot. I'm not doing description. And in a lot of cases, I'm not doing—for instance, I'm doing a lot of telling rather than showing, because I'm getting on the page what needs to happen. And then I need to go back and take out huge chunks of, you know, people standing up and monologuing. Instead make this actually interesting.

 

So you get the whole story in the first draft, but it would be boring. And the first draft also often introduces lots of big problems. And when I do my revisions, I need to fix those problems. Primarily, can I get the characters right? Almost every time I write a book, one of the characters, there's something wrong with them. And I need to finish the book before I can figure out what it is that's wrong with them. And the book is ready when I've got them right. At that point, it's a matter of polishing, and the polishing, though it takes time, is easy. No, it's not easy... That's the wrong term. The polishing is expected; it can be done. If I take the right amount of time, I will polish it correctly. But...it's those pieces right before that need to be fixed.

[aunt_pol]

But Sleepinghour if Harriet has held onto six months for edits etc, Brandon will be involved in that. I'd imagine there will be a lot of back and forth. He's hardly going to hand it over and walk away until signing tour.

[Kelandon]

Instead of being the "remarkably adaptable" woman RJ wrote about in his notes we get a caricature version of a dumb bully that is then called a dumb bully by Tam. End result is a scene with so much promise ends up being flat and very literal, carried not by the writing but by the fact that people have been wanting to see Cads get her comeuppance for so long.

Maybe this is why I like TGS and TOM so much. Things are happening that we want to happen, without a lot of fluff. At this point in the series, I don't want Cadsuane to not at all be a dumb bully but then get called one by Tam, then have Tam later realize that he's wrong and apologize, but Cadsuane exact some sort of revenge by which she gets him to do something stupid, setting off another chain of interminable events. Cadsuane needed to get slammed down, and she got slammed down. End of scene. On to the next.

 

It doesn't hurt that Sanderson has interpreted the characters more or less in the same way as I did, too. Tam says what I think any reasonable person in his position would say, instead of hemming and hawing and blushing and "Jinkies, Egwene"-ing (there's a reason Isam's parodies are so funny; they're too accurate).

 

So I think the reason that I like Sanderson's take on the WoT so much is that I thought that the series had lost its way in the last few books before Sanderson took it over. It was all that fluff that led to the dragging, slow pace of the mid-series books (say, books 7-10). I wasn't a huge fan of what RJ was doing to the series (though I understand now, with books 11-13 in hand, that at least most of it was necessary). I like the last two books much more because I think it put the series back on track, back where it was supposed to be.

 

That said, I should also say that on the first read through the mid-series books, they drove me absolutely crazy (I hated books 8-11 on the first read, as they came out — even the generally better-regarded KOD). But on the most recent re-read, which I think was right before TGS, I really liked books 8-11, when I read them straight through and followed with TGS right after. We'll see what happens on the current re-read.

[Suttree]

Instead of being the "remarkably adaptable" woman RJ wrote about in his notes we get a caricature version of a dumb bully that is then called a dumb bully by Tam. End result is a scene with so much promise ends up being flat and very literal, carried not by the writing but by the fact that people have been wanting to see Cads get her comeuppance for so long.

Maybe this is why I like TGS and TOM so much. Things are happening that we want to happen, without a lot of fluff. At this point in the series, I don't want Cadsuane to not at all be a dumb bully but then get called one by Tam, then have Tam later realize that he's wrong and apologize, but Cadsuane exact some sort of revenge by which she gets him to do something stupid, setting off another chain of interminable events.

 

Somewhat beside the point. The confrontation with Cads along with many of the major plot points in TGS and ToM where going to happen regardless. This was all outlined by RJ. There would not have been a new "chain of interminable events". It's comedy when posters comment on RJ's writing and bring up books 8-10 as if that is the top standard and what TGS and ToM would have been like. We are at a vastly different place in the story arc! People act as if RJ has never written a book like TSR or scenes like Dumais Wells(was there too much fluff in that battle for you?). If you want another example of a brief powerful scene go back and read "A Cup of Sleep" in tPoD. Bottom line KoD had things very much moving forward and we are at a point in in which plot threads are coming to a head no matter which author writes it.

 

Cadsuane needed to get slammed down, and she got slammed down. End of scene.

 

Remarkable how in this one sentence you managed sum up so well both Brandon's writing style and the major problems that can result from it if not handled correctly. It perfectly matches the first sentence of the Luckers quote from the start of the thread.

 

His style is all about slapping down words on a page and getting on to the next thing, and as a result both his character and plot work is blunt, simplistic and unpolished, relying on fan and plot gratification to pull the weight of the narative.

 

Not sure if you have read RJ's notes that came out during BS' Great Hunt but Cads has never been a "dumb bully" and she sure as hell would have never needed to resort to using the power on Tam. In our sprint from point a to point b, with not enough time allowed for revisions(and no I don't envy Brandon that task) she was turned into a caricature of the person she used to be. Look I want these scenes to happen as much as anyone else but it is not too much to ask that they be consistently well written. In the end plot revelation can only sustain you so much. As I have tried to return to both TGS & ToM I will be clipping along nicely only to be jarred right out of the narrative by one of these blunt sections and this is on my first few attempts at a reread! RJ's work has a robustness that allows you to return time after time and fully immerse yourself in the story. As the final book in the WoT I want aMoL to have that quality. We know Brandon has the skills to do so and it is my belief he has taken the necessary steps to make it so for aMoL.

 

This back-and-forth process will continue for several months, however long it needs to take to edit the book to perfection. Because we can't predict the time that will be required to whip this book into the shape it needs to be in, as befits the final book of the greatest fantasy epic of all time, Tor has not yet scheduled a firm publication date, but we can pretty much say at this point that it won't be released any earlier than late November.

 

That is a fairly significant change from how the first two books were handled. I can not congratulate them enough for making sure they get this last one "right".

[damandred]

Instead of being the "remarkably adaptable" woman RJ wrote about in his notes we get a caricature version of a dumb bully that is then called a dumb bully by Tam. End result is a scene with so much promise ends up being flat and very literal, carried not by the writing but by the fact that people have been wanting to see Cads get her comeuppance for so long.

Maybe this is why I like TGS and TOM so much. Things are happening that we want to happen, without a lot of fluff. At this point in the series, I don't want Cadsuane to not at all be a dumb bully but then get called one by Tam, then have Tam later realize that he's wrong and apologize, but Cadsuane exact some sort of revenge by which she gets him to do something stupid, setting off another chain of interminable events. Cadsuane needed to get slammed down, and she got slammed down. End of scene. On to the next.

 

It doesn't hurt that Sanderson has interpreted the characters more or less in the same way as I did, too. Tam says what I think any reasonable person in his position would say, instead of hemming and hawing and blushing and "Jinkies, Egwene"-ing (there's a reason Isam's parodies are so funny; they're too accurate).

 

So I think the reason that I like Sanderson's take on the WoT so much is that I thought that the series had lost its way in the last few books before Sanderson took it over. It was all that fluff that led to the dragging, slow pace of the mid-series books (say, books 7-10). I wasn't a huge fan of what RJ was doing to the series (though I understand now, with books 11-13 in hand, that at least most of it was necessary). I like the last two books much more because I think it put the series back on track, back where it was supposed to be.

 

That said, I should also say that on the first read through the mid-series books, they drove me absolutely crazy (I hated books 8-11 on the first read, as they came out — even the generally better-regarded KOD). But on the most recent re-read, which I think was right before TGS, I really liked books 8-11, when I read them straight through and followed with TGS right after. We'll see what happens on the current re-read.

 

 

I too wanted to see Cads humbled, but think that happened for me in tGS.

Using the power on Tam was unnecessary and was not IMO how Cads went about things.

[SuperFade]

Using the power on Tam was unnecessary and was not IMO how Cads went about things.

 

Quite right it wasn't how she normally acts - her last ditch effort to help Rand regain his humanity had utterly failed. Under such intense circumstances it's not surprising that she would let her frustration get the better of her. Cadsuane isn't perfect, she has her failings just like every other character in the WoT.

[damandred]

Good point

[Manscher]

Using the power on Tam was unnecessary and was not IMO how Cads went about things.

 

Quite right it wasn't how she normally acts - her last ditch effort to help Rand regain his humanity had utterly failed. Under such intense circumstances it's not surprising that she would let her frustration get the better of her. Cadsuane isn't perfect, she has her failings just like every other character in the WoT.

 

Indeed, I never really found her reaction to Tam to be that out of character. We know she's been very frustrated lately because non of her methods have had any effect, her last ditch effort to save Rand, and the world, seemed to have been ruined by a "sheepherder" that didn't do as she specified. As far as I remember from the previous POVs with her, she has had to restrain herself from taking similiar actions whenever people were acting foolish around her. Put these two facts together and it seems pretty natural that she would've "exploded" and reacted the way she did.

[Luckers]

Using the power on Tam was unnecessary and was not IMO how Cads went about things.

 

Quite right it wasn't how she normally acts - her last ditch effort to help Rand regain his humanity had utterly failed. Under such intense circumstances it's not surprising that she would let her frustration get the better of her. Cadsuane isn't perfect, she has her failings just like every other character in the WoT.

 

By the same note, it's not how she normally reacts. RJ described her as...

 

Her hair became iron-gray, and she wore it in a bun on top of her head; the bun was decorated with small dangling golden ornaments, stars and moons and birds and fish. These hair ornaments were considered something of a trademark because she had worn them for as long as anyone could remember. For many sisters, the fact that she had was just one more indication of how set in her ways she was; they thought Cadsuane would never change, could never change. Of course, that was far from true; Cadsuane was remarkably adaptable, as befits someone who survived as long as she.

 

Remarkably adaptable. And yet, she didn't adapt. Not when Rand first went cold and they had their initial confrontation--despite her being aware something was wrong, she just pushed and pushed at all odds with every previous interaction they'd had--and not in this crux moment despite months of being ready for it.

[David Selig]

"Remarkably adaptable" as in "treating the saviour of the world like a naughty child and spanking him for totally minor things, the same way as any other monarch or noble she had an argument with"? It may said so in the notes, but I sure don't see that "remarkable adaptivity" in the books. Her stubbornness would've lead to rand never listening to her if it wasn't for Min's viewing that he needed her.

[Luckers]

"Remarkably adaptable" as in "treating the saviour of the world like a naughty child and spanking him for totally minor things, the same way as any other monarch or noble she had an argument with"? It may said so in the notes, but I sure don't see that "remarkable adaptivity" in the books. Her stubbornness would've lead to rand never listening to her if it wasn't for Min's viewing that he needed her.

 

I do. When Rand acts like a silly child, Cadsuane addresses him as a silly child, saviour or the world or no. When Sorilea acts like a respectable adult, Cadsuane addresses her as a respectable adult, wilder or no. When Verin acts like a deeply mysterious, potentially dangerous player in the game, Cadsuane addresses her as a deeply mysterious, potentially dangerous player in the game, lower standing in the Aes Sedai hierarchy or no.

 

Cadsuane may not have been pleasant, but the one thing she always was was remarkably adaptable. Indeed, this is the very core of how she managed to be so very unpleasant--because she was so able to adapt herself to whom she was facing.

 

Under Brandon, whether she was being pleasant or unpleasent, she was in no way adaptable.

[David Selig]

I do. When Rand acts like a silly child, Cadsuane addresses him as a silly child, saviour or the world or no. When Sorilea acts like a respectable adult, Cadsuane addresses her as a respectable adult, wilder or no. When Verin acts like a deeply mysterious, potentially dangerous player in the game, Cadsuane addresses her as a deeply mysterious, potentially dangerous player in the game, lower standing in the Aes Sedai hierarchy or no.

 

Cadsuane may not have been pleasant, but the one thing she always was was remarkably adaptable. Indeed, this is the very core of how she managed to be so very unpleasant--because she was so able to adapt herself to whom she was facing.

 

Under Brandon, whether she was being pleasant or unpleasent, she was in no way adaptable.

But Rand never acted like a silly child around her when she slapped him or treated him like a halfwit. So he cursed a few times, big deal, that's no reason to hit him. You have to be remarkably stubborn and lacking adaptability to slap him for that when you're trying to earn the trust and respect of the saviour of the world. The balefire incident in ACOS is in the same vein - OK, she may think that balefire is too dangerous, but Rand is not 5 years old. Instead of slapping him (which only made him more stubborn) she should've just explained to him the dangers of balefire. Slapping him won't make him less likely to use it in the future - just less likely to listen to the warning. She didn't adapt at all to Rand even after the failure of her first meetings with him - she continued giving ultimatums and treating him like a silly child. She lucked out big time with Min's viewing that Rand needed her.