Could the warder's bond be the basis for the Aiel/Aes Sedai relationship in the AOL?

[Tud]

Hello everyone,

 

Theother night while I was walking my dog I began to muse on the holes in the theory that everything in the WOT has happened before..(eg: how much the topography of the world changed during the breaking. What , we're supposed have another breaking changing the face of the world to match what it was during the AOl, but beingso far in the past that not even myths survive?) and it started me thinking about the Warders...As you will remember,I think it was Semirhage who mused that the warders were something new..Warders didn't exist during the AOl. For me,that has always seemed to be a very large hole in the entire premise of the WOT...something that was entirely knew shouldn't be able to exist. Then it struck me that there might be an explanation...As you will rmember during TSR one of Rand's Aiel ancesters was going to accpet a marriage proposal. He was thinking that it would require his Aes Sedai passing his service to another Aes Sedai just before the Collum Da(sp?) blew up.

 

Is it possible that after Tarmon Guidan, the Aes Sedai begin accepting Aiel gai'shain as warders/servants and over time this becomes a formalized situation? I think that it makes sense so long as the Seachen don't conquer everything. After the Last Battle, there really wouldn't be a need for a warder to fight (At least not so much), so that aspect of the warder/Aes Sedai relationship would be de-emphatized to the point where the practice dies out. However, being Gai'shain taking the place of warders to the Aes Sedai would allow the Aiel a way to exist in a world where they don't fit. What else are they to do? They've already said that they can't go back to the Three Fold Land and technology/re-learned talents are already rendering them obsolete. Tn short, they're worried about what will become of themselves in the new world. That worry, along with the long term affects of Egwene's plan to link the Tower and the Wise Ones would seem to tie the Aiel to the Aes Sedai as a means for at least some part of The Aiel culture to survive.

 

That being the case, is it possible/likely that over thousands of years and Four Ages, the Gai'shain Aiel/Aes Sedai linkage becomes so strong that they have no memory that warders and the Aiel used to be something else entirely?

[BrainFireBob]

Or you could put together what we know of the introduction of Warders (happened this Age, came from the WT) and what we know of research into controlling men who can channel (such as the Breaking-era "sad bracelets"), and compare comments made by channellers regarding being able to "sense" other people to whom they are linked to the description of the Warder bond, note that the Warder bond has an implicit Compulsion element, and that Compulsion doesn't work when you are embracing the Source, and that Warder bond Compulsion has the same vulnerability (as Alanna found out when she bonded Rand, and he felt her scrabbling at him- he thought they were trying to shield him, when they imply Alanna was trying to Compel him through the bond), and that it gives enhanced physical capabilities and that male channellers eventually die of a rotting sickness- well, you realize the bond isn't necessarily entirely new, and there are good odds it's an outgrowth of early WT experimentation, as one of the Browns alluded went on, into finding a way to control men who can channel without gentling while still accessing their talent (via linking). Turns out if you do it to a non-channelling male, you get a super-fit, super-loyal man, who has a vested interested in making sure his "holder" stays alive. Win-win.

[dicetosser1]

there are a couple of other things in the books that dont seem to have ever existed before.

 

1 Aludras dragons. Weve heard of shocklances and sho jars and what not but not them

 

2 the crank for Mats crossbows. Mat even says he's thever heard of them EVER! and he would be the resident expert.

[Mr Ares]

Hello everyone.

 

The other night while I was walking my dog, I began to muse on the holes in the theory that everything in the WOT has happened before..(eg: how much the topography of the world changed during the breaking. What, we're supposed have another breaking changing the face of the world to match what it was during the AOL, but being so far in the past that not even myths survive?) and it started me thinking about the Warders... As you will remember, I think it was Semirhage who mused that the warders were something new. Warders didn't exist during the AOL. For me, that has always seemed to be a very large hole in the entire premise of the WOT...something that was entirely knew shouldn't be able to exist. Then it struck me that there might be an explanation...

There is an explanation, but it is far simpler than you think - the AoL and the 3rd Age are different Ages in the same turning - events repeat from one turning to the next, not one Age to the next. Thus the 3rd Age is (in broad strokes, not fine detail) a repeat of the last 3rd Age, not the AoL. So the absence of Warders in the AoL is meaningless. There could have been Warders in many past Ages, Ages that Semi knows nothing about. Further, the world doesn't need to be reshaped exactly as it was. Remember, history only repeats in broad sweeps. If you look at it from a distance, it looks the same, but up close it looks very different. So a similar tapestry of history on a different geography is something Wheel can accept quite easily. So the problem lies not with the premise of the series so much as with your understanding of it.

[Tud]

Okay, first things first..Aludras dragons did exist in a different age..They're called cannons. Same thing with the crossbow cranks. You've got to remember that the AOL was a time far advanced of our own. It is implied that it is the farthest along the wheel that we get before it all comes crshing down (although how that jibes with the statement made in one of the encyclopedias that it was the First Age is an interesting question), so lots of things that are mentioned in the Third Age would have been forgotten by the time the War Of The Shadow began. If you flip the point around you can see what I mean. Except for The ForeSaken, no one in this Age even suspect that things like jo cars, shock lances and sho wings ever existed, yet we know that they did in the AOL...Lack of knowledge does not negate existenc, it simply denotes curent ignorance of past historical events/facts.

 

The simplest explanation could be as simple as the fact that there are seven Ages. No one has ever said that each age is equal in length so a considerable period of time could have passed Things get lost over a period of time and skills are forgotten..i'm a Roman Era Re-enactor and i can tell you that there are lots of things we don't know about the Roman legions/Roman culture. Even after only two Thousand years much has been forgotten or lost and it takes great effort to regain that knowledge. Imagine how things would be if tens of thousans of years had gone by.

 

Now, regarding the point about the age's not exactly repeating themselves, That's not how Mr. Jordan put in in the only interview I heard him speak related to the issue. He stated that everything repeats..Everything. That in fact is exactly what is implied in the oft-repeated WOT mantra. Additionally, Mr. Ares, while you may be correct that not every age is exactly as it was the last time it came around, some things have to be or this entire storyline falls apart. The Bore has to drilled into the Dark One's Prison, the War Of The Shadow has to occur, Lews Therin Telamon has to be there to lead the forces of light, Latra Prosae has to be there to refuse to lend aid to the strike at Shayol Ghul, the counter strike has to taint saidin, the breaking has to occur, Tarmon Gauidan has to occur and the Dashian Aiel have to exist..Without them, (as both Dashain and in the current form) Rand doesn't exist (Unless you're going to posit that Rand will exist no matter what happens during the turning of the wheel.) Which might be possible except that Mr.Jordan implied strongly that that was not how he viewed things. There may have been other interviews where he stated otherwise, but I haven't seen/heard them. I'm proceeding with what i've been made to understand is how he viewed the whole Wheel turning thing.

 

But all of that is beside the point, I was asking if it was possible that the Warder /Aes Sedai relationship might have been the precursor for the Daishain Aiel/ Aes Sedai relationship.Such a explanation rather neatly handles two major plot holes (Where'd the Aiel come form and what happened to the Warders) without creating others. That was the point I was raising. Good old Occam's Razor at work.

 

 

tud

[Didgya]

Okay, first things first..Aludras dragons did exist in a different age..They're called cannons. Same thing with the crossbow cranks. You've got to remember that the AOL was a time far advanced of our own. It is implied that it is the farthest along the wheel that we get before it all comes crshing down (although how that jibes with the statement made in one of the encyclopedias that it was the First Age is an interesting question), so lots of things that are mentioned in the Third Age would have been forgotten by the time the War Of The Shadow began. If you flip the point around you can see what I mean. Except for The ForeSaken, no one in this Age even suspect that things like jo cars, shock lances and sho wings ever existed, yet we know that they did in the AOL...Lack of knowledge does not negate existenc, it simply denotes curent ignorance of past historical events/facts.

 

The simplest explanation could be as simple as the fact that there are seven Ages. No one has ever said that each age is equal in length so a considerable period of time could have passed Things get lost over a period of time and skills are forgotten..i'm a Roman Era Re-enactor and i can tell you that there are lots of things we don't know about the Roman legions/Roman culture. Even after only two Thousand years much has been forgotten or lost and it takes great effort to regain that knowledge. Imagine how things would be if tens of thousans of years had gone by.

 

Now, regarding the point about the age's not exactly repeating themselves, That's not how Mr. Jordan put in in the only interview I heard him speak related to the issue. He stated that everything repeats..Everything. That in fact is exactly what is implied in the oft-repeated WOT mantra. Additionally, Mr. Ares, while you may be correct that not every age is exactly as it was the last time it came around, some things have to be or this entire storyline falls apart. The Bore has to drilled into the Dark One's Prison, the War Of The Shadow has to occur, Lews Therin Telamon has to be there to lead the forces of light, Latra Prosae has to be there to refuse to lend aid to the strike at Shayol Ghul, the counter strike has to taint saidin, the breaking has to occur, Tarmon Gauidan has to occur and the Dashian Aiel have to exist..Without them, (as both Dashain and in the current form) Rand doesn't exist (Unless you're going to posit that Rand will exist no matter what happens during the turning of the wheel.) Which might be possible except that Mr.Jordan implied strongly that that was not how he viewed things. There may have been other interviews where he stated otherwise, but I haven't seen/heard them. I'm proceeding with what i've been made to understand is how he viewed the whole Wheel turning thing.

 

But all of that is beside the point, I was asking if it was possible that the Warder /Aes Sedai relationship might have been the precursor for the Daishain Aiel/ Aes Sedai relationship.Such a explanation rather neatly handles two major plot holes (Where'd the Aiel come form and what happened to the Warders) without creating others. That was the point I was raising. Good old Occam's Razor at work.

 

 

tud

 

I think you have an interesting theory tud but if your using Occam's Razor, I believe it would be a bit more simple than all of that. Even BrainFireBob's explanation fits better on the Razor and Mr. Ares fits best with that criteria. (sorry its the skeptic in me that had to say it )

[rand4747]

i think only the major events are similar, so there is a drilling and there is a sealing that fails (the dragon seals it) then sometime later it weakens and the dragon reborn fixes it. All the political and other stuff can be completely different between each turning, just that their must be the dragon/dragon reborn (maybe not even those other taverin they might be specific for that turning) and that certain major events must happen. Likely the breaking happens every turning and the tainting, but the Aiel could have been specific for this turning st least in the way they are, and other things.

[Tud]

I don't think that eiather idea fits Occam's razor. Regarding the point about only the major aspects remaining the same, I think that was the point I was making..Lews Therin, The bore, The Aiel, several other things..Rememberthat the aile have to exist in both ages for Rand to exist and to have the memories that allow him to bind the present day Aiel to him. They are a major point which has to remain the same.

 

As for Occam's Razor not applying, I'm sorry I don't get it. The matter I was considering was whether the current warder's bond is the basis for the AOL relationship between the Daishain Aiel and the Aes Sedai. Neither the discussion of the warder bond by FireBrainBob or Mr' Ares comment about the possible variations inherent in each turning of the whel address that issue. In point of fact, neither the warders nor the warder's bond exist in the AOL. The relationship that most resembles the warder/ Aes Sedai relationship is that which existed between the Daishain Aiel and their Aes Sedai. The Daishain Aiel don't resemble the current day Aiel whose entire culture is based on being a warrior society. Having the Aiel step into the role of pseudo warders for the Aes Sedai would seem to explain that evolution rather neatly.

[Mr Ares]

Now, regarding the point about the age's not exactly repeating themselves, That's not how Mr. Jordan put in in the only interview I heard him speak related to the issue. He stated that everything repeats..Everything.

Then fortunately for you, I am here to help cure you of your ignorance, with a little help from the interview database. "I think of time in this world as fixed circular, but with a drifting variation. There are slight differences in the Pattern each time through so that if you thought of the Pattern as a tapestry and held up two successive weaves, you couldn’t see any differences from a distance, only close up, but the more time turnings between tapestries, the more changes are apparent. But the basic Pattern always remains the same.""imagine two tapestries hanging on a wall, and you look at them from the back of the room to the front of the store. And to look at them, they look identical to you. But as you get closer, you begin to see differences. And if you get close enough, they don't look anything at all alike. That is the difference between the Ages. Between the Age in one Turning and the Age in another." I'm not aware of RJ ever saying anything like everything repeating exactly each time.

 

Additionally, Mr Ares, while you may be correct that not every age is exactly as it was the last time it came around, some things have to be or this entire storyline falls apart. The Bore has to drilled into the Dark One's Prison, the War Of The Shadow has to occur, Lews Therin Telamon has to be there to lead the forces of light, Latra Prosae has to be there to refuse to lend aid to the strike at Shayol Ghul, the counter strike has to taint saidin, the breaking has to occur, Tarmon Gauidan has to occur and the Dashian Aiel have to exist..Without them, (as both Dashain and in the current form) Rand doesn't exist (Unless you're going to posit that Rand will exist no matter what happens during the turning of the wheel.)

You know, none of that really follows. Some things might have to be the same, but why does Rand need to be born of an Aiel every time? On the slopes of Dragonmount. No, Rand needs only to be born - the exact circumstances can be subject to change. We don't even know if there needs to be a Bore or a taint. Perhpas there is a utopian society that collapses each time, but that doesn't mean it has to happen the same way each time.

 

But all of that is beside the point, I was asking if it was possible that the Warder /Aes Sedai relationship might have been the precursor for the Daishain Aiel/ Aes Sedai relationship. Such a explanation rather neatly handles two major plot holes (Where'd the Aiel come form and what happened to the Warders) without creating others. That was the point I was raising. Good old Occam's Razor at work..

I know what the point you were raising was. The origin of the Aiel and where the Warders will go are not plot holes, as the term is generally defined. They are merely unanswered questions. And Occam's Razor doesn't really enter into it. You have merely taken two things, which we have no reason to believe are related, and said maybe they are related. Well, they might be, but surely the simple explanation is that they are just two different things, as they appear. You have to remember the span of thousands of years between the end of the Warders and the start of the Aiel. More immediate causes are probably responsible for both. Things start, other things end. You overcomplicate for no reason.

[Tud]

Actually, Mr.Ares,it is you who've overcomplicated things..I was merely asking if it were possible if the warder's bond could have been the basis for the aiel relationship with the Aes Sedai in the AOl. Nothing else.You've managed to cloud the issue with the talk of age/wheel variation..I use one phrase (plot hole), which to me includes questions that Mr. Jordan hadn't answered and you seize on it to derail the entire conversation...

 

 

As for my point that certain things have to exist in every turning of the wheel, I still stand by it. Even your quote bears that out..Mr. Jordan states that while the wheel allows a certain amount of variation on minor points, major points have to occur time and again for the tapestry to take on the appearance of being indentical. Things like the breaking and the boring into the Dark one's prison have to occur because they affect every age that follows and preceeds them. They are simply too large to not occur.

 

So, just to get the conversation back on track. I will ask...again...do you think it is possible that the warder's bond and the Aiel, over thousands of years, evolved into the Dashain Aiel that were present in the AOL?

 

tud

[Mr Ares]

Actually, Mr Ares, it is you who've overcomplicated things. I was merely asking if it were possible if the Warder's bond could have been the basis for the Aiel relationship with the Aes Sedai in the AOL. Nothing else. You've managed to cloud the issue with the talk of age/wheel variation. I use one phrase (plot hole), which to me includes questions that Mr Jordan hadn't answered and you seize on it to derail the entire conversation.

 

As for my point that certain things have to exist in every turning of the Wheel, I still stand by it. Even your quote bears that out. Mr Jordan states that while the Wheel allows a certain amount of variation on minor points, major points have to occur time and again for the tapestry to take on the appearance of being indentical. Things like the Breaking and the boring into the Dark one's prison have to occur because they affect every Age that follows and precedes them. They are simply too large to not occur.

 

So, just to get the conversation back on track. I will ask...again...do you think it is possible that the warder's bond and the Aiel, over thousands of years, evolved into the Dashain Aiel that were present in the AOL?

I haven't overcomplicated anything, I have merely responded to what I wanted to respond to. I was more interested in responding to your misapprehensions regarding the cyclical nature of time than I was the relationship between Warders and Aiel. Given your desire to respond to those points, it has to be said you give every indication of being interested in discussing those points despite hollow protestations to the contrary. I did not "derail" an entire conversation with my correction of your inaccurate use of the term plot hole - that was merely said in passing in one post. Absurd exaggerations will get you nowhere. As for certain things having to exist in every turning, that much is not in doubt, however you take far too much from that, far more than is supported by RJ's quotes. "Up close they don't look anything alike at all." Some of the specifics you list would almost certainly have room to change. The Pattern might need a Dragon, but why would it need a Dragonmount for him to be born on? Why are the Da'shain needed, why is Latra Posae? Unwarranted assumptions all the way. What is needed is a general trend, similarities in the broad sweep not the specific detail. So the broad sweep we see is the rise of the AoL, and its subsequent fall. You insist that all the tiny details must be the same. No reason to assume that, and RJ said it isn't true.

 

Now, as to the trivial point you seem so hung up on, while it might be possible that the Aiel and Warders are in some way related, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that it is the case, and it is an incredibly implausible stretch to believe that there is some sort of relationship between two things, so different, so widely spaced in time, when all indications are that they are just two different, unrelated things.

[Suttree]

So, just to get the conversation back on track. I will ask...again...do you think it is possible that the warder's bond and the Aiel, over thousands of years, evolved into the Dashain Aiel that were present in the AOL?

 

No I don't think they have any relation.

 

Also it seems as if you are making a huge jump from Semy saying something didn't exist during the AoL to the Warder bond being something "entirely" new.

[Tud]

Okay, Sutree.Thanks for the response.This is what I hoping for.You don't think that the Warder's bond and covenant between the Daishain Aiel and the Aes Sedai are related, why not?

 

As for it being a huge jump to conclude that Warders didn't exist during the AOL based on Semi's comment,I'm not sure I agree. First,you have to note that her statement is the only evidence we posses concerning warders during the AOL (and it is in the negative) and second, I seem recall a reference in one of the other books to the fact that it was sometime after the founding of the White Tower that the warder bond was discovered (And I agree that it might be rather a case of the bond being re-discovered, like traveling. If that is the case, then obviously, the entire premise of my question goes out the window.).If the bond was discovered later, then why couldn't have been the basis for the covenant?

 

Either way, two related questions arise. Where did the Daishain Aiel come from and when did they form the Covenant with the Aes Sedai? Could it be that the origin lies with the recent inlfux of bleakness striken Aiel into the Tinker camps? That could account for the fact that the Tinkers don't exist in the AOL (the inlux of the Aiel allows the knowledge of the Tinkers' orgin to become common knowledge and the name just falls out of use in preference to referring to themselves instead as the Daishain Aiel), yet they seem to best suited of any part of ther Aiel to survive the presence of the Seanchen.

 

As to when the Covenant arose,who konws? I admit that both of these questions may not be answerable in lieu of an answer from Mr. Sanderson or Mrs. Jordan, but it is somethin to think about while we wait for a Memory of Light to make its appearance (An event i both long for and dread..I really want to know what heppens next but it will be the last time we get to expereice that felling unless the outrigger novels are written.

 

tud

[Suttree]

As for it being a huge jump to conclude that Warders didn't exist during the AOL based on Semi's comment,I'm not sure I agree. First,you have to note that her statement is the only evidence we posses concerning warders during the AOL (and it is in the negative) and second, I seem recall a reference in one of the other books to the fact that it was sometime after the founding of the White Tower that the warder bond was discovered (And I agree that it might be rather a case of the bond being re-discovered, like traveling. If that is the case, then obviously, the entire premise of my question goes out the window.).If the bond was discovered later, then why couldn't have been the basis for the covenant?

 

You mistake my meaning...what I was trying to say is just because something didn't exist during the AoL does not mean it's "entirely new". The latter would suggest it has never existed in any previous turning of the wheel. You said "something that was entirely knew shouldn't be able to exist." The point doesn't matter all that much, I was just looking to clarify.

 

As for the connection between the Aiel/Warders it seems highly unlikely because there really is nothing to connect the two. A great deal of time passes from the 3rd age until the AoL comes again. Including a time where people do not know how to channel.

[Thrasymachus]

I believe Jordan has either strongly hinted, or outright said, that our Age is the prior age to the Age of Legends. It is, at least, a prior Age, even if it's not the First Age. The Age of Legends, known by some as the Second Age, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, was marked by the discovery and proliferation throughout the world of the ability to channel the One Power. The warder bond was unknown during the Age of Legends. The warder bond is unknown now, neither is there any remnant of it in legend or habit in our Age (not counting the WoT series itself). Nor are there any Aiel running around at the moment, and recall that the Aiel are not just a vocation, or a job, but a race, even during the Age of Legends. They were the tall, red-headed folks with light-colored eyes. Yes, we have the Irish, but they don't tend to be all that tall, though, arguably, they are every bit as touchy as Aiel, and they do tend to like the oosquai.

 

In short, there is no mechanism by which the warder bond, or even the idea of the warder bond, could survive through the complete turning of the Wheel to motivate the formation of the Aiel in the Age of Legends.

 

More likely, in my opinion, the very first channeler (I believe he was called the Tam'ryllin) was of the race, or proto-race of the Aiel. He was probably also a bit of an idealist and a pacifist, having given rise to an institution of "Servants of All." Most likely, the fellow members of his race who were unable to learn to channel adopted the philosophy of service and pacifism as well, and directed that service in support of channelers who adopted the philosophy of service and pacifism thereby becoming Aes Sedai, probably in support of the Tam'ryllin alone at first. Being the Aiel of a particular Sedai would just be a way of institutionalizing these sorts of things. The body guards for the President of the US, for example, are rotated through a pretty small number of guys. Small enough that the President can easily get to know them all by name and learn about their families and take an interest in their careers if he's so inclined. And small enough that the guards spend enough time at that particular job that they become personally invested in it.

[LeeM.Erickson]

If the First Age ended with the discovery of channeling, which I understand to be the case, then channeling has to be lost between the current Age and the First Age come again. So I don't think a particular weave can last all the way through a Turning of the Wheel to the extent that it can eventually influence an Age that came before it.

[lyonardo]

This thread is so ancient that I doubt anyone from the original conversation will see this, but I've been thinking about something relevant during my third reading of F.O.H.:

I think that some form of the warder bond is the reason that all Aiel are stronger, faster, and have much more endurance than other humans. During the age of legends, the original Aiel (the Jenn) were "pledged" to the Dragon. They would take a beating without resorting to violence, and just turn the other cheek and ask you why. Although there were no Warders then, I think the same process was a part of this pledge and continues down through every descendant of the Jenn.

[lyonardo]

Another very, very late addition to this conversation. I don't envision that the turning of the wheel means that each age is repeated again, per se. Just like Lews Therin comes again over and over, but during the 3rd age he's half Aiel. He's come again, but he's not Lews Therin. He retains his old memories, but he's a completely different man. 

I see each turning of the wheel in the same way. It returns but isn't like rewinding a cassette tape. It's a wheel that's constantly rolling forward on the road that is time.

[damandred]

I think the warder bond is unique to the third age. It is a specific weave for a specific age, ie for a time after the time of madness when every hand was turned against AS. There was no reason for the bond in tAoL, that had forgotten war.

 

Also as surely has day follows night something will happen in one age that wasnt known in the previous age, (even if that age is more primative by comparison), to be forgotten again in the next age. There is no need for a thing to follow on as each age has it own challenges, and necessity being the mother of invention and all of that.

As for the Aiel being tall and having light hair/eyes thats just a race charactoristic ( nordic/ germanic) they have never inter married so have kept that trait, the tinkers are desended from the same stock , but over the years converted many others to their way of life and mixed the gene pool. The Aiel are tough because theyve spent 3 thousand years in a land were only the tough survive.

[Sabio]

Agreed, every age isn't exactly the same everytime but certain events must occur like the people forgetting about the DO, hole being bored into the DO's prison, an attempt to seal it, then the hole is sealed.  But in between that I am sure there are differences in what happens in the ages each time.  With how many Aiel served the Aes Sedai I think it would be unlikely if the Aes Sedai did know the warder bond back then that they would of bonded all the aiel serving them.