Blackhoofs Warhammer 40'000 Game [BASIC]

[amegakure]

so not much to add...At hoof im gona have to take a slight loa just for tommorow and friday. going to chicago not sure when ill be able to get online.

[Amadine]

  On 2/9/2012 at 2:02 AM, Sakaea said:

Think about it this way: lynching a claimed vanilla we don't lose a power role. With a random, we could lose cop or doc.

 

This is 100% correct, its better to lynch me than have a random kill. In 2 years of playing I have only seen a day 1 random hit scum once.

[aemonkristen]

I hate that we couldn't even get enough people to pressure Perf a little before deadline. Since I am going to go to bed soon and deadline is about 7 hours from now, I will go ahead and hammer.

 

UNVOTE

 

VOTE AMADINE

 

Sorry Ama, but a controlled lynch is better than a random.

[Blackhoof]

Vote Count

 

Perfect (2)- Nolder, Amadine, Ishy

Amadine (7)- Red, Perfect, Amegakure, Sakaea, BG, Lenlo, Aemon

 

With 12 alive, 7 is needed to lynch

 

A lynch has been achieved!

 

Note that scenes are entirely for flavour and player characters will be shown, but their role in the scene will have no bearing on the actions of the player playing them, no matter their in-game actions, their real personalities, their position on the lynch train or involvement in the deaths. That is all.

 

"COWARD! HERETIC! TRAITOR!" Roboute screamed at the top of his lungs, pouring out his fanatical rage towards the unfortunate Priest before him. Father Farnsward was outwardly calm and composed, and tried to calm the raging ganger. "Please, my son, calm yourself, your suspicion is misplaced, I assure you."

 

However, although they had followed and adored this old minister for decades, the townspeople were adamant- the holy Father was guilty. He was infected by the Genestealers, or a blood relative of an infected one and under their spell. "You doddering old fool!" One of the people cried. "Did you think we would fall for your act?" Roared another.

 

Ararn approached the angry mob and stilled their cries. Standing before the accused, he withdrew his bolt pistol and said, "Father Farnsward, you stand before us accused of conspiracy, sedition and heresy. How do you plead?"

 

"Innocent, of course." The old man replied. "Mr Sankir, we have known each other for years.... you do not truly believe I am party to this cult do you?"

 

The crowd growled and murmured, almost unanimous in their conviction of his guilt. Grim demeanor in place, Ararn raised his pistol and pointed it at the old Father's forehead. "I am sorry Father," Ararn said as the priest began murmuring a prayer to the God-Emperor, "but the people have spoken."

 

Ararn pulled the trigger.

 

Amadine, who was the Priest, Vanilla Townie, has been Lynched!

 

Night has begun! No deadline for actions!

[Blackhoof]

Vote Count

 

Perfect (2)- Nolder, Amadine, Ishy

Amadine (7)- Red, Perfect, Amegakure, Sakaea, BG, Lenlo, Aemon

 

With 12 alive, 7 is needed to lynch

 

A lynch has been achieved!

 

Note that scenes are entirely for flavour and player characters will be shown, but their role in the scene will have no bearing on the actions of the player playing them, no matter their in-game actions, their real personalities, their position on the lynch train or involvement in the deaths. That is all.

 

"COWARD! HERETIC! TRAITOR!" Roboute screamed at the top of his lungs, pouring out his fanatical rage towards the unfortunate Priest before him. Father Farnsward was outwardly calm and composed, and tried to calm the raging ganger. "Please, my son, calm yourself, your suspicion is misplaced, I assure you."

 

However, although they had followed and adored this old minister for decades, the townspeople were adamant- the holy Father was guilty. He was infected by the Genestealers, or a blood relative of an infected one and under their spell. "You doddering old fool!" One of the people cried. "Did you think we would fall for your act?" Roared another.

 

Ararn approached the angry mob and stilled their cries. Standing before the accused, he withdrew his bolt pistol and said, "Father Farnsward, you stand before us accused of conspiracy, sedition and heresy. How do you plead?"

 

"Innocent, of course." The old man replied. "Mr Sankir, we have known each other for years.... you do not truly believe I am party to this cult do you?"

 

The crowd growled and murmured, almost unanimous in their conviction of his guilt. Grim demeanor in place, Ararn raised his pistol and pointed it at the old Father's forehead. "I am sorry Father," Ararn said as the priest began murmuring a prayer to the God-Emperor, "but the people have spoken."

 

Ararn pulled the trigger.

 

Amadine, who was the Priest, Vanilla Townie, has been Lynched!

 

Night has begun! No deadline for actions!

[Amadine]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3nrZUJLrKM

[bgrishinko]

  On 2/9/2012 at 2:44 AM, Ishmael Forsaken said:

I'm really not happy with either of these trains. I wish more than anything that we could vote for a No Lynch. I do realize, however, that this situation is entirely the fault of inactivity on all our parts. But both of these trains really, really reek. Both Perf and Ama are town, I'm positive of it. But random can ruin us. We have until the morning till DL, and I'm going to wait until the last possible second if I'm needed for hammer, but having to hammer either one of them will be making the best of a bad situation.

 

/Hooray for drunken Mafia!!

 

 

  On 2/9/2012 at 3:28 AM, Ishmael Forsaken said:

  On 2/9/2012 at 2:56 AM, Sakaea said:

What makes you so sure Perf is town, Ishy?

I'm by no means sure he's town. I'm just willing to chalk it up to this being one of the first games I've seen him in. I AM however completely sure that Ama is town, as she said it straight out. As I said, I'll cast a vote if needed before DL. It will be for Perf, as I am certain of Ama, but not of him. My vote will be based on meta, which I hate to base a vote on, but it's all I have right now.

 

Error: Does not compute. Big ol' FOS at Ishy.

 

Sorry I wasn't around yesterday, I'd probably have changed back to Perf since I unvoted him to ensure a lynch mainly as I was the only vote on him then all of a sudden 4 other people decided to vote him. Oh well.

[Red2111]

need to do a re-read on this. my allergies are in over drive, so don't expect me to post my notes until next week.

 

 

i'm surprised Ama's lynch took so long since she was tellign the truth; either the scum are all on her lynch or they spread out their votes imo. i think peopel who jumped off her lynched shoudl be examined more honestly, and BG brings up a good poitn about ishy with the above post, drunken mafia or not.

[Red2111]

okay, here what i got on my re-read. part 1

 

"You have posted more than the allowed number of quoted blocks of text"

 

 

*laughs* srsly?! thats a first for me.

 

  On 2/1/2012 at 3:32 PM, bgrishinko said:

  On 2/1/2012 at 12:50 PM, Nolder said:

  On 2/1/2012 at 12:44 PM, bgrishinko said:

Vote: Nolder

 

Nolder uses day 1 randomness to plant the idea of SK. Covering for his own role?

actually I said Serial Killer because it makes a lot more sense than Mafia

if Christine had team mates she'd be a little less nervous I think and wouldn't feel like she'd need to plant sympathy seeds so early

I guess she could maybe be a Lyncher? how common are those in basic games here?

the only third party scum I can think of that fits is Serial Killer

But at the same time, it gives the idea that you aren't a 3rd party since you suggested it. So, by my estimates, that could make you a SK or other 3rd party trying to distance yourself from the idea by setting ground work for blame elsewhere.

 

even on re-read, the jump to "Chrissy must be 3rd party" still feels off. the fact BG tries to paint it like Nol is covering for himself being the SK still pings as well.

 

not trying to re-dredge up the debate that followed, but those are the first two pings of the game for me.

 

 

 

  On 2/2/2012 at 2:45 AM, Lenlo said:

Lets go with my trivia buddy Ishy for now, that and going with the crowd. I vote BG

 

this vote, newb or not, pings greatly. this is the 3rd vote on BG and is disguised as a joke vote. way to opportunistic for my liking

 

 

  On 2/2/2012 at 3:58 PM, aemonkristen said:

  On 2/2/2012 at 2:57 PM, bgrishinko said:

  On 2/2/2012 at 3:50 AM, Lenlo said:

*Has learned his lesson... Wont do it again for the next vote.*

At least no one took a rolled up news paper into this.

 

Sooo.... you learned your lesson, but you keep your vote where it is?

 

Ok.

 

Tip of Advice: If you have a good reason to keep it there, it's fine. State it. But if you don't state a reason then it looks like you might be trying to sneak a vote by unnoticed.

 

This is just to emphasize my point. Notice how BG calls out Lenlo for keeping his vote where it is without an explanation. BG then agrees with Nolder that players should stick to their guns whether they explain themselves or not. Contradictory behavior which looks defensive and scummy to me. Why is he worried about Lenlo's vote so much?

 

aemon brings up a good point abotu BG's reaction to the 3rd vote.

 

 

  On 2/3/2012 at 2:01 AM, Perfexionist said:

Unvote as my vote wasn't serious.

 

this pings slightly because Perf felt the need to clarify his vote was a joke vote.

 

 

  On 2/3/2012 at 2:52 PM, aemonkristen said:

And Ama comes in to plant the seeds of a lynch. Ping

 

  On 2/3/2012 at 2:54 PM, bgrishinko said:

Yeah, gotta say I'm not sure what Ama is getting at. Are you implying the Nolder/Aemon debate is a gambit?

 

  On 2/3/2012 at 3:15 PM, Nolder said:

lol so your thought process upon reading the thread is "I haven't seen a decent gambit in awhile" and that's not implying that you think a gambit is taking place?

 

honestly I'm not sure why you even bothered to deny that

 

  On 2/3/2012 at 5:33 PM, Sakaea said:

You don't think they are, but you think it's a possibility? Contradiction much? :confused:

 

all of the above posts came after Ama's gambit comment. i'm FoSing the lot of you as potential scum trying to lead a lynch on her without actaully placing a vote. all of you can't be scum, but i think 1 of you is. i'm leaning more towards Nol atm.

 

 

  On 2/3/2012 at 7:03 PM, Red2111 said:

UNVOTE

 

VOTE: AMA

 

for the gambit comment honeslty and her reactions to people poking her about it.

 

 

if you want a more indepth reason, it'll have to wiat until sometime monday. me and my home PC are not on good terms right now

 

heres the first vote on Ama; is still stand by my vote reasonings.

 

 

  On 2/4/2012 at 2:08 PM, Perfexionist said:

Well, my thoughts so far:

 

Nolder made a vote off one post and jumpstarted the game with it. Yay for that. Though his vote is still on her.

 

There have been about three discussions the way I see it. One about the SK possibility, one about mafia rights / wrongs, and one about Ama pointing out that there may be a gambit.

 

For the SK possibility convo, bg did try to emphasize a third party possibility, but since the basic mafia example has one I don't think it is wrong for him to do that, even as town.

 

For the conversation about the mafia advice, I'm not sure what to make of it. It did go on for a little longer than I'd expect, but it did seem earnest.

 

For the jumping on Ama. I'm not too sure if Ama was trying to plant suspicion, if others were trying to plan seeds onto Ama, or what.

 

In the end, not too many people have posted. I think it is better to get a lynch than a no lynch (that appears to be the consensus in the other few games I am / was in). More people could post that are in this game and, and that would help. At the moment I'm going to remain voteless, but I will vote to try and get a lynch if it seems necessary.

 

this post pings. it's the typical "summary but not helping" type post i've seen from scum who want to appear as if their helping.

 

 

  On 2/4/2012 at 6:38 PM, amegakure said:

You know i got the same feeling red...I was really confused about what she was trying to say, but im not soo sure that she is scum... its possible but i dont really think so...id like to here more from you on what exactly makes her come off as scum to you?

 

slight FoS remains on Amega for appearign to buddy with me. he kept posting that he wanted to hear my reasonings for voting Ama alot, as if he wanted to use anothers reasonings for voting (ie: attach himself to me)

 

 

  On 2/6/2012 at 7:22 PM, aemonkristen said:

I'm going to go ahead and

 

UNVOTE

 

VOTE AMA

 

I don't like the way she threw the idea of a gambit out and then tried to play as if she hadn't.

 

next vote on Ama. the only reason why this vote pings is because i find it wiered that the vote came so late, almost liek he was waiting for soemone else to lead the vote rather than voting her first off himself.

[Red2111]

part 2

 

  On 2/7/2012 at 4:07 AM, amegakure said:

well im busy playing guitar so i will put my vote down vote Ama

 

3rd vote, including lack of reason though in other posts he does clarify he disliked the gambit comment as well.

 

 

  On 2/7/2012 at 11:05 PM, Sakaea said:

In the interest of moving the game along, Unvote, Vote Ama

 

blatant bandwagon vote. i'm meh on this one

 

 

  On 2/8/2012 at 12:34 PM, bgrishinko said:

Unvote. Vote Amadine

 

votes with no reason, and puts Ama within quick hammering range. major PING

 

 

  On 2/8/2012 at 6:35 PM, Nolder said:

  On 2/1/2012 at 11:29 PM, Perfexionist said:

Vote Ama because sigs that good are suspicious.

  On 2/4/2012 at 2:39 PM, Perfexionist said:

Very good point Nolder. Better to be proactive.

 

I am going to vote Amadine right now. I think she should have an opinion on whether or not it was a gambit. Then, she goes on to say the reactions to her post are interesting, but doesn't provide any more explanation. Trying to plant seeds of a town lynch all over the place?

 

Vote Ama

---

Through my reread this is the only thing I found suspicious

my own arguments sadly fill most of the thread

sorry about that guys

but yes Perf voting Ama early, unvoting her, and then voting her again later feels off to me

I didn't find it off at the time because I was just happy he'd taken my point and decided to vote

 

Unvote: Christine

Vote: Perf

 

anyway like I said I think Ama is the wrong lynch here and I think Perf would be a decent start for being on her case for most of this game so far

 

here's the first to start the second wagon, it also plants Nol firmly on Ama's side therefore allowing him to link himself with her.

 

 

  On 2/8/2012 at 7:01 PM, Sakaea said:

I'd be willing to switch my vote to Perf, cus that does seem off, and really, I'm only voting Ama cus the DL is so close. So Unvote for now.

 

this unvote comes after Ama makes the comment about scum being on her lynch. other than that, nothign really much about this quote to look at imo

 

 

  On 2/8/2012 at 9:54 PM, Ishmael Forsaken said:

  On 2/6/2012 at 9:06 PM, Amadine said:

I am vanilla town.

 

Ama said it straight out. As lots of you know, Ama is well known for not lying in the game. As hard as that is to believe in a Mafia game, it's true. I've played with her quite a few times now and not once have I ever caught her lying. So those of you voting for her this close to the dealine may want to do some re-thinking. Since I won't be voting for her I'll go with the next largest train.

 

Vote Perf.

 

And I don't care for this one much either, mostly just due to the fact that I really hate to lynch a new player on D1. I'd rather let them play at least one day and night to get a feel for the game and start to get addicted (MWAHAHA). But I can't really see any other option this close to deadline.

 

the first to bring Ama's meta into the game and 2nd to vote Perf. notices he states he doens't liek the wagon, but votes it anyways. if you didn't liek that wagon, why not start a new one on a player you thought was scummy Ishy.

 

major ping for linking yourself to Ama and being on the fence with Perf's wagon.

 

 

  On 2/8/2012 at 11:00 PM, Sakaea said:

But Ama never lies, period. Even when she is mafia, she won't lie to save herself. So yeah, Vote Perf even tho I too like to give n00bs a D1 pass.

 

uses Ama's meta to give herself a legit reason to vote Perf. maybe an attempt to avoid suspicion for jumping off Ama's vote?

 

 

  On 2/8/2012 at 11:46 PM, aemonkristen said:

Or pile onto you, Perf. Personally, I agree with Nolder that the whole "I alwas tell the truth" angle takes a lot of the fun out of the game. It's like a get out of scumminess free card. Rather than needing to explain yourself and convince people, all you have to do is say "I'm town" and all the pressure goes away. Since that is the case with Ama, I am obliged to UNVOTE. I do not see the case on a Perf lynch, so I am going to do a reread before casting a vote. We still have until Friday, so there is still time to think about this instead of speed lynching Perf.

 

disagrees with the Ama meta reason, but unvotes anyways. this after Ama directly FoS'd him on her lynch. trying to save face for when she flipped town Aemon?

 

 

  On 2/9/2012 at 12:05 AM, Lenlo said:

UNVOTE

VOTE Ama

 

I still stand by my earlier vote for BG, I dont like/see the point of outright saying "Im a townie". It seems there are only 3 ways this is going to go right now, Ama, Perf or random. I dont like the idea of a random going out and I dont have any experience with Ama and how honest they are. I dont know much about Perf either, but with having to choose between the two I choose Ama.

 

the time stamps between Aemon's unvote adn this vote are close enough for this to be an attempt at a ninja hammer imo thats really the only thing note worthy about his vote.

 

also, i find the underlined to be interesting, as his vote on BG had nothign to do with the game.

 

 

  On 2/9/2012 at 2:44 AM, Ishmael Forsaken said:

I'm really not happy with either of these trains. I wish more than anything that we could vote for a No Lynch. I do realize, however, that this situation is entirely the fault of inactivity on all our parts. But both of these trains really, really reek. Both Perf and Ama are town, I'm positive of it. But random can ruin us. We have until the morning till DL, and I'm going to wait until the last possible second if I'm needed for hammer, but having to hammer either one of them will be making the best of a bad situation.

 

/Hooray for drunken Mafia!!

  On 2/9/2012 at 3:28 AM, Ishmael Forsaken said:

  On 2/9/2012 at 2:56 AM, Sakaea said:

What makes you so sure Perf is town, Ishy?

I'm by no means sure he's town. I'm just willing to chalk it up to this being one of the first games I've seen him in. I AM however completely sure that Ama is town, as she said it straight out. As I said, I'll cast a vote if needed before DL. It will be for Perf, as I am certain of Ama, but not of him. My vote will be based on meta, which I hate to base a vote on, but it's all I have right now.

 

BG brought up the points for this, but quoting them again becuase i agree.

 

the fact that Ishy was so adament abotu Ama being town felt like he knew she was goign to flip town and wanted to use that to his advantage. then theres the contradiction of Perf; maybe he's trying to give a team mate some cover.

 

 

 

  On 2/9/2012 at 6:18 AM, aemonkristen said:

I hate that we couldn't even get enough people to pressure Perf a little before deadline. Since I am going to go to bed soon and deadline is about 7 hours from now, I will go ahead and hammer.

 

UNVOTE

 

VOTE AMADINE

 

Sorry Ama, but a controlled lynch is better than a random.

 

last vote on Ama. its a major ping worthy because of the fact that he got off Ama's train after a FoS from her, only to "grudingly" cast the hammer.

[aemonkristen]

All I can say is that I didn't want it to go to a Random lynch because I resided to go to bed without voting. I was hoping Perfect would come in and say something, but that just didn't happen.

[bgrishinko]

Quick Rebuttal:

 

  On 2/2/2012 at 3:58 PM, aemonkristen said:

  On 2/2/2012 at 2:57 PM, bgrishinko said:

  On 2/2/2012 at 3:50 AM, Lenlo said:

*Has learned his lesson... Wont do it again for the next vote.*

At least no one took a rolled up news paper into this.

 

Sooo.... you learned your lesson, but you keep your vote where it is?

 

Ok.

 

Tip of Advice: If you have a good reason to keep it there, it's fine. State it. But if you don't state a reason then it looks like you might be trying to sneak a vote by unnoticed.

 

This is just to emphasize my point. Notice how BG calls out Lenlo for keeping his vote where it is without an explanation. BG then agrees with Nolder that players should stick to their guns whether they explain themselves or not. Contradictory behavior which looks defensive and scummy to me. Why is he worried about Lenlo's vote so much?

 

I responded to this already here which you failed to quote:

 

  On 2/2/2012 at 4:11 PM, bgrishinko said:

Ah, I should have been more specific. I was agreeing with Nolder that you should "stick to your guns" if you really believe it. Which goes along with what I said. But as I said, doing so without a reason can look suspicious to others. So I guess I don't agree 100% with every word Nolder said, just the main point.

 

 

 

My vote on Amadine was because I wasn't going to be around yesterday which I stated right before that and at the time I was the only vote on Perf. I moved for consolidation. Then everyone decided Perf would be good after that.

[Nolder]

  On 2/9/2012 at 7:34 PM, Red2111 said:

"You have posted more than the allowed number of quoted blocks of text"

 

 

*laughs* srsly?! thats a first for me.

really? that happens to me all the time

that's why I tend to reply spam on DM rather than make on giant post

[Nolder]

  On 2/9/2012 at 7:34 PM, Red2111 said:

i'm leaning more towards Nol atm.

that's ******* ridiculous

Ama posted about a gambit and then backpedaled terribly

I was the only trying to actually understand what the hell she was trying to say as you may have noticed from my posts you didn't quote

I even said I thought it was a townie move that was badly expressed

seriously Red?

you need to think that over because you're barking up the wrong tree with me

[aemonkristen]

*woof*

 

Couldnt heló museos. It's too quiet in here.

[aemonkristen]

Autocomplete fail again.

 

That was supposed to say "couldn't help myself. It's too quiet in here."

[Perfexionist]

Yeah, think it's the night.

[Blackhoof]

People can still talk, silly.

 

Waiting on a few more NA's

[Perfexionist]

Yeah but more info to work with come morning.

[John E. Kelley]

Are we still waiting on NA's? Good Lord, take your shot scum and let's get this moving.

[Blackhoof]

Lily is replacing Christine

[LilyElizabeth]

Hi, guys. I'm all caught up and ready to roll.

[Red2111]

omg Lily!!! *snuggleglompcuddlebite* been a long time since i've played in a game with you!!

 

 

any notes you'd like to share with us since your a fresh pair of eyes??

 

 

also, what the heck guys, this is the longest night ever!!

 

 

[Blackhoof]

Ararn licked his finger and slowly turned another page in his prayer book, quietly reading the numerous prayers to the God-Emperor within. They had searched the chapel, ransacked poor Father Farnsward's belongings and performed extensive testing on his body but no evidence of infection or treachery could be found. They had murdered an innocent man.

 

Sighing deeply, Ararn closed his book, laid it on his bedsde table and turned off the light. It is tiring beign a murderer, Aarn thought to himself ruefully as he closed his eyes, ready for sleep to overtake him. Suddenly, the door burst open, and Ararn roled out of bed just in time to see several bright spears of scarlet light burn through his bed. The foul Genestealer-Human Hybrid standing in the doorway hissed and fired his lasgun again, sending more beams of light sattering arond the room.

 

Ararn grabbed his boltpistol as he dodged the wild laser fire, and put a round through the disgusting creature's head. Mere moments after the creature had fallen, its head a smoking mess, another leapt through the doorway and began blating away with its laspistol. Ararn took cover ehind his chest of drawers, and put the beast down as it raced towards him. "Guards! Intruders!" The Commissar roared, but they were already dead.

 

More Hybrids entered the room, and Ararn took them down one by one, the unarmounred aliens little match for his boltpistol. Suddenly, a dark shape, impossibly fast, shot through the doorway and before Ararn could react, picked up the chest of drawers and threw it to the side. Ararn raised his power sword to destroy the unholy creature, but it was too fast. As the four-armed creature leapt at him, razor claws spread wide, one thought crossed the Commissar's mind- Genestealer.

 

Perfextionist, who was Ararn Sankir, Town Cop, has been Night-Killed!

 

Tech-Priest Zeta Harell of the Adeptus Mechanicus tinkered with the civilian truck, trying to repair it for the anxious farmer who had pleaded with him earlier. The man had begged Zeta to fix it, saying hat he needed the truck to carry his produce to market and if he could not do that, he would go broke. Zeta had had nothign better to do at the time, and although fixing someting as simple and primitive as a truck was nearly an insult to his considerable tehcnological skills, the Tech-Priest agreed.

 

And that was how Zeta Harell found himself, in the middle of the night, fixing a truck when the Lictor found him. The Lictor had remained quiet for weeks, gathering information and spying, trying to gauge the best way to weaken this town for it's brethren. They were not on their way yet, of course, but once the planet was weak enough the Lictor would send the signal, and the Hive Fleets of the Tyranids would harvest this world, turning every organic material into biomass from which to create more tyranids.

 

The Lictor knew that this species relied on it's 'Tech-Priests' to mantain and build all their advanced technology and weapons. The superstitious humans held technology in an almost sacred light, allowing only certain individuals to carry its secrets. Would it not be unfortunate if this town's Tech-Priest were to suffer an unfortunate accident?

 

The Lictor stealthily emerged from hiding and began advancing on Zeta from the rear. The Tech-Priest never knew he was being hunted until he felt the Lictor's claws around his neck, and it's vestigial mouth-tendrils bore into his brain.

 

Nolder, who was the Tech-Priest, Vanilla Townie, has been Night-Killed!

 

Day 2 has begun!

 

Deadline is 9AM 16 Feb EST

 

With 9 alive you need 5 to lynch

[Blackhoof]

sorry about the long night, most of that was my fault. i have had problems osting and such lately