Taim - Chosen

[fyodor]

 

I know this goes more than a little off-topic, but how do we therefore explain the lifespan Ishamael seems to have had then? As he, if free for multiple period of 40 years in the period between being sealed away and the escape of the Forsaken, and having likely been into his middle years during the AoL, would otherwise surely be dead? Should we assume that the TP has a similar but more potent life-elongating effect to the OP?

 

The Guide implies that he was free for a few decades every 1000 or so years. So he hangs around and taunts LTT, disappears for 1000 years, launches the Trolloc wars, disappears for 1000 years, becomes Artur Hawkwing's advisor and causes his empire to collapse, and then reappears maybe a few decades before the current action. It only adds 100 or so years to his life.

[jwood01]

So basically, Taim is "A New Age Chosen" if:

 

1) He is not Moridin

 

2) He has been conferred the "inherrent ability to command the Myrddraal"

 

 

 

Is there any evidence that Taim can (or cannot) command Myrddraal? I cannot think of any instances of it, but others here are much more knowledgeable than I am.

[Lacanos]

So basically, Taim is "A New Age Chosen" if:

 

1) He is not Moridin

 

2) He has been conferred the "inherrent ability to command the Myrddraal"

 

 

 

Is there any evidence that Taim can (or cannot) command Myrddraal? I cannot think of any instances of it, but others here are much more knowledgeable than I am.

 

The books suggest that Ashaman are being subjected to the 13x13 "turning" using 13 Myrrdraal and 13 Darkfriend channelers. Now it therefore depends - does Taim have the ability himself to command the Myrrdraal for this, or are they obeying him under instructions from Moridin for e.g.

[jwood01]

So basically, Taim is "A New Age Chosen" if:

 

1) He is not Moridin

 

2) He has been conferred the "inherrent ability to command the Myrddraal"

 

 

 

Is there any evidence that Taim can (or cannot) command Myrddraal? I cannot think of any instances of it, but others here are much more knowledgeable than I am.

 

The books suggest that Ashaman are being subjected to the 13x13 "turning" using 13 Myrrdraal and 13 Darkfriend channelers. Now it therefore depends - does Taim have the ability himself to command the Myrrdraal for this, or are they obeying him under instructions from Moridin for e.g.

 

Or are they just doing it out of their own free will. 13x13ing seems like something they would enjoy doing.

[Lacanos]

So basically, Taim is "A New Age Chosen" if:

 

1) He is not Moridin

 

2) He has been conferred the "inherrent ability to command the Myrddraal"

 

 

 

Is there any evidence that Taim can (or cannot) command Myrddraal? I cannot think of any instances of it, but others here are much more knowledgeable than I am.

 

The books suggest that Ashaman are being subjected to the 13x13 "turning" using 13 Myrrdraal and 13 Darkfriend channelers. Now it therefore depends - does Taim have the ability himself to command the Myrrdraal for this, or are they obeying him under instructions from Moridin for e.g.

 

Or are they just doing it out of their own free will. 13x13ing seems like something they would enjoy doing.

 

It would require him to have access to a decent number of Myrdraal, obviously a minimum of 13. This would necessitate him having some kind of authority simply to gather them, as they aren't easy to get hold of and are relatively few in number (I've always been surprised at the number we see die during the series).

[fikkie77]

Dreadlords in the Trolloc Wars could command Myrddraal. I guess all of them would have been called Chosen in the AoL, but because of the status of the (trapped) Forsaken, they weren't.

Taim is a Dreadlord. Whether he may call himself a Chosen, depends whether Moridin allows for Third Age Chosen, not whether he has the mark, because he obviously has that (considering the 13x13 trick).

[Barid Bel Medar]

Dreadlords in the Trolloc Wars could command Myrddraal. I guess all of them would have been called Chosen in the AoL, but because of the status of the (trapped) Forsaken, they weren't.

Taim is a Dreadlord. Whether he may call himself a Chosen, depends whether Moridin allows for Third Age Chosen, not whether he has the mark, because he obviously has that (considering the 13x13 trick).

 

Dreadlords did NOT have control over Shadowspawn. They did not have the Chosen Mark. They had to bargin and frighten the Myrddraal into obeying. Anyone can command a Myrddraal if they have enough power to scare them. But the Chosen Mark allows easier control without having to bargain, and Shadowspawn do not attack those with a mark (Chosen or one like Aliviarin)

 

Having said that, the Dreadlords would have called themselves chosen in the AoL. However, we are talking about what makes a 3rd Age Chosen, which is a different thing. That thing is the "Chosen Mark", which no Dreadlord ever had. It is the only difference between the 13 and Dreadlords. (aside from being from the AoL obviously)

 

Myrddraal could have been ordered by one of the Forsaken to help Taim. Taim could have offered them something. The DO himself could have ordered the Myrddraal. It is unsure if he has the Mark, if he does, however, he possesses no less power than any of the 13, which makes him a 3rd Age Chosen.

 

It doesn't matter what Moridin thinks on the subject. If Taim has the same Marks and power as the Forsaken, he is for all intents and purposes a 3rd Age Chosen. The others may not like it, but it is not up to them.

 

INTERVIEW: Jan 25th, 2005

TOR Questions of the Week Part II (Verbatim)

 

Some of the Dreadlords had authority and responsibility equivalent to that of the Forsaken in the War of the Shadow, however. They ran the Shadow's side of the Trolloc Wars, though without the inherent ability to command the Myrddraal that the Forsaken possess, meaning they had to negotiate with them.

[1Brotherbill]

I really don't think there will be any Chosen in the next age. It has been hinted that the DO's prison will be sealed to up to the point that nobody will know about it.

 

You know the wheel goes round and round idea. So when Rand went through the Columns he saw the DO's prison being broken into. And it was a shock that it happened. Which kind of tells us that there was no memory of the DO or the prison or anything associated with the DO. So that Age lasted a long long time where fact became story and story became myth and myth was forgotten. And there were no Chosen until the prison was opened.

[Mr Ares]

He is saying it isn't worth killing a thousand shaido if it costs the life of a single asha'man

No one was talking about killing Shaido when he made that statement.. Perrin and Rhuarc were telling Rand that Rand's Aiel were trapped out there and were going to die. They weren't telling Rand how awesome it would be to kill all those Shaido. Taim then kicks in and points out that his men would be much harder to replace than any number of "renegade Aiel."

 

It's a total non-sequitor for Taim to try to convince Rand that Ashaman would be much harder to replace than Shaido. He's telling him that it will be much easier to replace Rand's "Renegade Aiel" (the ones that Rhuarc and Perrin were just talking about, who were in danger) than the Ashaman.

 

Immediately after saying that the "renegade Aiel" will be hard to replace he then says "whoever dies out there dies for the Dragon Reborn." Are the Shaido dying for the Dragon Reborn?

 

Taim says "My Lord Dragon, I would say there are still several hundred Shaido women out there, some not insignificant it seems. And that is not to mention some thousands of Shaido with spears. Unless you truly want to find out whether you are immortal, I suggest waiting a few hours until we know this place well enough to make gateways with some certainty where they will come out, then leaving. There are casualties in battle. I lost several soldiers today, nine men who will be harder to replace than any number of renegade Aiel. Whoever dies out there, dies for the Dragon Reborn."

I fail to see how that quote proves your point. It could just as easily be argued that Taim is arguing to keep the irreplaceable Asha'man safe, because regardless of how much damage they do the Shaido will more easily replace their losses. The people who are dying for the Dragon are those who are dying because they Asha'man will not help - because they are too important to waste on Shaido. It's not a non-sequitur, it's a reasoned argument for staying put.

 

I know this goes more than a little off-topic, but how do we therefore explain the lifespan Ishamael seems to have had then? As he, if free for multiple period of 40 years in the period between being sealed away and the escape of the Forsaken, and having likely been into his middle years during the AoL, would otherwise surely be dead? Should we assume that the TP has a similar but more potent life-elongating effect to the OP?

If nothing else, bear in mind he is a channeler, and thus has a life expectancy in the centuries. So middle years would surely indicate he still has severalf hundred years ahead of him. And occasional bursts of forty years would still leave him with centutries more life to be expected.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Also, the True Power is used to re-juvinate them. Like Aginor did in EotW.

 

Also, RJ has said that the True Power is the source of the immortality. If the DO gives it to them.

 

 

INTERVIEW: Aug 27th, 1999

Melbourne Film Festival - Mark Erikson (Paraphrased)

 

 

ROBERT JORDAN

I asked him about Aginor getting younger at the end of The Eye of the World, and he said 'no, he doesn't get younger, he dies'. So I actually looked up the reference and read it to him. He said 'oh, that,' and then went on to explain that it is actually the True Power, not the saidin from the Eye, that rejuvenates him. He did describe the saidin in the Eye as a 'mother-lode', however, I didn't think to ask him what he meant by that until I was in the car going home. I instead asked him whether the True Power was the source of the Forsaken's immortality. He said: yes.

[Luckers]

So basically, Taim is "A New Age Chosen" if:

 

1) He is not Moridin

 

2) He has been conferred the "inherrent ability to command the Myrddraal"

 

 

 

Is there any evidence that Taim can (or cannot) command Myrddraal? I cannot think of any instances of it, but others here are much more knowledgeable than I am.

 

I believe he is responsible for the attack on Algarin's manor--it fits his MO (being willing to send in poorly thought brute force assaults on the hope of achieving ones ends provided it cannot be assigned to him. It's the same methodology he used in the attack on the Sun Palace [and, in my opinion, in the attack on Demira]).

 

He also had opportunity. Logain states that three days prior to the attack Taim was desperate to find out where Rand was. Logain himself didn't say anything, but that doesn't mean one of Logain's men--or, more significantly, the Aes Sedai bonded to them who have stated their intention to use the rift between Logain and Taim to destroy the Black Tower--didn't let it slip. Three days is precisely the time needed to then travel to the borderlands and send the assault force through the Ways for it to arrive in time.

 

Beyond that, it is illogical that one of the Forsaken sent that assault--having just lived through the Cleansing, and having no reason to expect Rand to not use the Choedan Kal and Callandor, would only serve the purpose of throwing away a hundred thousand trollocs. This is why the two major suspects in the attack and the outliers--Taim and Fain.

 

It should also be noted that he seemingly had the ability to command one of the Soulless--the grey man who 'attacked' Rand so that Taim could 'save' him and earn some street cred. Of course that grey man could have been assigned... just sayin'.

[fyodor]

So basically, Taim is "A New Age Chosen" if:

 

1) He is not Moridin

 

2) He has been conferred the "inherrent ability to command the Myrddraal"

 

 

 

Is there any evidence that Taim can (or cannot) command Myrddraal? I cannot think of any instances of it, but others here are much more knowledgeable than I am.

 

I believe he is responsible for the attack on Algarin's manor--it fits his MO (being willing to send in poorly thought brute force assaults on the hope of achieving ones ends provided it cannot be assigned to him. It's the same methodology he used in the attack on the Sun Palace [and, in my opinion, in the attack on Demira]).

 

He also had opportunity. Logain states that three days prior to the attack Taim was desperate to find out where Rand was. Logain himself didn't say anything, but that doesn't mean one of Logain's men--or, more significantly, the Aes Sedai bonded to them who have stated their intention to use the rift between Logain and Taim to destroy the Black Tower--didn't let it slip. Three days is precisely the time needed to then travel to the borderlands and send the assault force through the Ways for it to arrive in time.

 

Beyond that, it is illogical that one of the Forsaken sent that assault--having just lived through the Cleansing, and having no reason to expect Rand to not use the Choedan Kal and Callandor, would only serve the purpose of throwing away a hundred thousand trollocs. This is why the two major suspects in the attack and the outliers--Taim and Fain.

 

I don't see why Taim is more or less likely than any of the known Forsaken, who are also desperately trying to keep track of Rand. Taim knows that Rand has Callandor since his lackeys saw Rand use it in PoD. He's probably smart enough to infer that Rand has some other powerful Sa Angreal from the way the cleansing happened.

 

My other problem with Taim sending the Trolloc assault is that Taim is very closely associated with Moridin (as indicated by Taim's decorating with Moridin's colors, dressing the Ashaman in the same red-black colors that Moridin uses for his own servants, etc.). So I'd think that he'd be less likely than the known Forsaken to attack Rand in violation of Moridin's orders.

[Luckers]

So basically, Taim is "A New Age Chosen" if:

 

1) He is not Moridin

 

2) He has been conferred the "inherrent ability to command the Myrddraal"

 

 

 

Is there any evidence that Taim can (or cannot) command Myrddraal? I cannot think of any instances of it, but others here are much more knowledgeable than I am.

 

I believe he is responsible for the attack on Algarin's manor--it fits his MO (being willing to send in poorly thought brute force assaults on the hope of achieving ones ends provided it cannot be assigned to him. It's the same methodology he used in the attack on the Sun Palace [and, in my opinion, in the attack on Demira]).

 

He also had opportunity. Logain states that three days prior to the attack Taim was desperate to find out where Rand was. Logain himself didn't say anything, but that doesn't mean one of Logain's men--or, more significantly, the Aes Sedai bonded to them who have stated their intention to use the rift between Logain and Taim to destroy the Black Tower--didn't let it slip. Three days is precisely the time needed to then travel to the borderlands and send the assault force through the Ways for it to arrive in time.

 

Beyond that, it is illogical that one of the Forsaken sent that assault--having just lived through the Cleansing, and having no reason to expect Rand to not use the Choedan Kal and Callandor, would only serve the purpose of throwing away a hundred thousand trollocs. This is why the two major suspects in the attack and the outliers--Taim and Fain.

 

I don't see why Taim is more or less likely than any of the known Forsaken, who are also desperately trying to keep track of Rand. Taim knows that Rand has Callandor since his lackeys saw Rand use it in PoD. He's probably smart enough to infer that Rand has some other powerful Sa Angreal from the way the cleansing happened.

 

My other problem with Taim sending the Trolloc assault is that Taim is very closely associated with Moridin (as indicated by Taim's decorating with Moridin's colors, dressing the Ashaman in the same red-black colors that Moridin uses for his own servants, etc.). So I'd think that he'd be less likely than the known Forsaken to attack Rand in violation of Moridin's orders.

 

Here's my covarage on the Forsaken v. Taim for this issue.

 

The Nature of the Attack

 

 

Ok, so send a hundred thousand Trollocs to kill Rand. Seems a simple enough plan, no? And indeed, as Logain states it was a close run thing. Without his Asha'men reinforcements they might have lost. Only pause for a moment a consider that--Rand had the male Choedan Kal and Callandor, and the Trollocs attacked in a neat little group that would have been right for the plucking. By all rights it should never have come to be as close as it did, only Rand's lack of foresight allowed for that.

 

Some point out that Rand may not have had the Choedan Kal or Callandor on him—that he had hidden them, or that Cadsuane had retained possession of them—but that’s irrelevant here. What we are discussing is the effects of the presence of these two sa’angreal would play to someone planning the attack.

 

The Forsaken knew Rand had the two sa’angreal with him. More importantly they had just walked away from getting spanked around by Rand and his followers due in large part to the superior preparation Cadsuane had put in place. In effect they had reason to not only be aware of the presence of those sa’angreal, they had reason to expect that Rand and those with him would be prepared to use them in the event of an attack. That Rand wasn’t is irrelevant, as is the fact that it didn’t occur to him when the attack was initiated.

 

From that point we have the fact that the Forsaken lived through the war known as THE war of the power. They knew what the power could do against an army unprotected by their own channelers. Effectively they had no reason to expect Rand to be an idiot, and from their perspective launching such an attack serves no purpose but to bring Rand's attention back onto the Shadow, which seems counter-productive after all their hard work on spreading dissension and causing drama amongst the light, whilst keeping the Blight as quiet as a lamb. It certainly did with Lan's.

 

Cyndane or Moghedien

 

So, for the majority of the Forsaken this attack would be an adventure in stupidity, or at the least short sightedness. Cyndane and Moghedien are the exception to this. Due to their enslavement to Moridin their resources are limited, and both have a deep obsessive hatred for one of the people present at Algarin’s manor. Cyndane also knows the trick of finding Rand through his ta’maral’ailen. So, they each have a specific motive—revenge—and both are limited in how they can enact that revenge, therefore explaining the easy ‘hit-or-miss’ nature of the Shadowspawn attack.

 

Moridin certainly seems concerned about letting Cyndane too close to Rand—saying that she would ‘accidentally’ kill him, and we’ve seen Moghedien detour from Moridin’s orders to try and kill Nynaeve in the past. That being said, Moridin still remains the big problem in this. When Moghedien makes her small diversion to try and kill Nynaeve she’s nearly out of her mind with fear that Moridin will know. She states “Moridin's instructions had been explicit, the price of disobedience made excruciatingly clear,” and the same again at the Cleansing—this time reinforced by Cyndane who made a similar comment about disobedience.

 

 

Moghedien’s fear at a small detour essentially rules her out—she literally is out of her mind with fear, even with her babbling to herself that he had never forbidden this. He had forbidden Shadowspawn involvement with the Light, and blatant act like subverting a hundred thousand Trollocs is a hundred fold the risk her trying to kill Nynaeve was. Cyndane likely faces the same restrictions though she has been willing to risk herself in her obsession with Rand in the past. Still, disobeying Moridin in such an open way bears such risk to either woman as to by itself make this theory unlikely.

 

So, without the limited resources and desperation Moghedien and Cyndane provide us with we are left wondering why the Forsaken used such a desperate plan. This leads to three options.

 

1. The attack was incidental.

2. They really did wish to draw Rand's attention to the North.

3. It wasn't the Forsaken.

The Attack Was Incidental

 

 

This suggestion is that the attack itself wasn't the point--if it killed Rand, hey great, but if not who cares. The issue here is what was the real intention? If it was simply to draw suspicion on one of their fellow Chosen why wear the Sammael mask? That straight up screams disguise, and given the Chosen all clearly thought he was dead (which he is) why would any be aiming for him. Why not appear as one of the alive and active Chosen? Unless of course there was no Sammael at all, as Dominic of the Thirteenth Depository point out. Or in other words, what if Moridin was lying?

 

Moridin

 

We can note there were already mind-games being played in the organisation of the room in the form of the additional chairs, so is it a far bet to suggest that this entire thing is some sort of game Moridin is playing to keep the Chosen off guard? Under this idea the attack being sent would serve the purpose of making the Chosen think they were being considered for treason, and given the Dark One’s treatment of treasonous Chosen thereby make them toe the line extra carefully.

 

In support of this idea, one may note that it wasn’t a stretch to figure out who the focus of the attack would be—and given Moridin can track Rand, yet makes no effort to place people at the Waygates near Rand’s position it would seem to indicate that Moridin did not care to make much of an effort to thwart the attack.

 

However, this idea is problematic. For one thing it seems overkill. The Forsaken had already been reined in by Shaidar Haren, and to directly underline that reining in Mesaana had been tortured for disobeying Moridin’s command to go and fight at the cleansing. Furthermore the Forsaken, those worth Moridin’s effort, anyway, were hardly cowards. They weren’t going to step back for the idea that they might be suspected of treason—especially given they all probably were contemplating treason. Aran’gar certainly was and she doesn’t bat an eye at this.

 

In effect the Forsaken had all been reined in as far as cheap theatrics were going to be able to achieve. Furthermore this attack serves no purpose but to refocus Rand on the north again—certainly it serves the trick with Lan. Given that keeping the light’s focus on the South and away from the Shadow is Moridin’s pet plan it seems unlikely he’d risk it for such a cheap trick.

 

Another point against Moridin is in the link between himself and Rand—note that he re-issues the no-kill order at the exact time the link grows strong enough to reveal itself for what it is—a link between his and Rand’s souls, as opposed to a channelling sickness side-effect of crossing balefire streams with Rand. That makes sense given what occurs to warders when their bond is broken. The bond and the link may be two distinct things, but Moridin must be at least concerned. That makes it less likely that he would wilfully risk Rand’s life before finding a way to safely break the connection.

 

Counter-point: Dominic of the Thirteenth Depository points out that the attack may not have been directed at Rand at all, but rather at his companions. Rand has assembled a very dangerous group and a worrying arsenal – sufficient to drive back an attack by all the Chosen but Mesaana and Moridin, without Rand himself , or the CK, even involved. Moridin may very well have qualms about letting such a group around Rand survive long enough to fight TG at his side. The real purpose of the attack may have been to destroy Rand’s “Companions”, possibly with commands issued to keep the Shadowspawn from killing Rand.

 

This idea would presumably imply that the effort with the Forsaken was simply a bonus. That Moridin took advantage of a pre-existing situation to serve a second purpose. However if the attack were officially sponsored by the Shadow to kill Rand’s coterie, why use Trollocs? If winnowing out Rand’s ranks was the purpose why not send the Gholam? Or even just a bunch of Grey Men? Rand may be well guarded, but his guards aren’t.

 

Sending a large force on the off chance of success against an enemy who could sweep them all aside like flotsam in a flood seems stupid and blunt. Moridin prides himself on the subtlety of his planning.

 

Graendal

 

It can be noted that with the exception of Graendal and Aran’gar the other six Chosen have seemingly formed alliances of three. Demandred, Mesaana and Semirhage, and the apparent alliance between Cyndane, Moghedien and Moridin (remember the Forsaken don't know of the cour'souvra, though Aran'gar guesses that that might be the case). This leaves Graendal and Aran'gar in a loose position. We know Aran'gar wasn't at fault (she wonders openly if Demandred is trying to hide that he did it), but it could be Graendal.

 

Under this theory Graendal caused the attack, intentionally blaming it on someone others would see through in order that everyone would suspect everyone else. People acting on their own causes division in alliances—‘if they’ve done this, what else may they be doing without my knowledge?’

 

Still this is problematic. Moridin’s control of Cyndane and Moghedien is openly authoritative, and that makes attempting to cause dissension between them pointless. Graendal could easily guess that both women would already be scheming against Moridin, and that Moridin would be aware of it. No one likes being forced to be openly submissive, much less one of the Chosen. As for Demandred, Semirhage and Mesaana—their alliance is constantly reinforced as weak. They do not tell each other their plans; they just hold a loose agreement not to move against each other until all the rest are out of the way. Graendal’s pretty cluey, and probably picked that up.

 

Graendal is also no fool. There are less self-destructive ways of causing dissension without risking the cause of the Shadow itself, much less disobeying the Dark One openly, especially given the Dark One only just cracked down on disobedience. Graendal’s shown herself to be too subtle for this sort of open movement.

 

Demandred

 

The only thing going for Demandred is his military background, and that in some ways stands against him, because he more than most would appreciate the stupidity of attacking Rand with a force that had no channelers. Dominic of the Thirteenth Depository also points out that his reaction to learning of the ‘Sammael’ speaks of his innocence—specifically, he blurts out that Sammael must be dead, realises that means one of them must be responsible, and backtracks to keep the idea of Sammael being alive open.

 

Counter-point: That could simply be good acting. Aran’gar considers that possibility.

 

Mesaana

 

Given her recent abuse for disobeying it would be strange for her to act now. Also no explanation for the stupidity of such an attack.

 

Semirhage

 

Given her plan to leash Rand, it is unlikely she would launch this attack anyway. And again there is no explanation for her to launch so stupid an attack.

 

 

The Attack Was Meant To Draw Rand's Attention North

 

I'm putting this up because I have seen it suggested, and more or less so that we can rule it out. The method of it would be that maybe one of the Forsaken was a double agent or has since decided to turn on the Shadow. Straight up it's unlikely, but as a source for this attack it’s impossible--there are better ways to warn Rand than to send an army to attack him, even if you feel certain it’s impossible that army would succeed. Some suggested Cyndane and Moghedian may fit here too, acting self-destructively out of a desire to get revenge on the Shadow for their soulbinding, but aside from the reasons above that stand against them disobeying Moridin, their obsessive hatred of Rand and Nynaeve respectively stop them trying to help Rand in anyway.

 

Nope. Looney bin with this one.

 

It Wasn't The Forsaken

 

Or rather, it wasn't one of the old Forsaken. Firstly, we know that around book ten the Dark One was feeling remarkably dissatisfied with his Chosen. He was forced to rely on them because they were irreplaceable in their knowledge and ability, yet they were fractious and self-serving, and the previous threat of their utter annihilation was no longer available.

 

He responded to this in a number of ways. Reining them in tightly under Moridin, Soulbinding Cyndane and Moghedien, having Shaidar Haren go over their heads to directly interact with darkfriends like Alviarin and so on.

 

It's in that last one that I believe the key is, specifically Shaidar Haren marks Alviarin with a weaker version of the Chosen Mark as a sign of favour. Now, that doesn't instantly mean that he's also raising new chosen, however it does show that Shaidar Haren is elevating Third Agers, and marking them--effectively it shows that the Dark One is attempting to create methods of accessing power without having to rely on the current Chosen too heavily.

 

Now Alviarin only gets a weak mark, which makes sense. She is not overly strong in the power, and her education is that of a Third Ager, and we know that the Dark One values these things in his Chosen. RJ stated it thus...

 

the Dark One, who believes that his people from the age of Legends are in all practical ways better -- for which read better trained, more capable, and thus better able to serve him efficiently and effectively -- than the people of the present time. And he is right. In a way. They are certainly better trained, with a much wider knowledge.

 

[Tor QotW]

 

So, the Dark One clearly places value on knowledge and strength, yet he can't (and doesn't) like having to rely on his current Chosen, who in recent days have caused problems with disobedience. The answer is Taim.

Mazrim Taim

 

 

Origins

 

Firstly according to RJ he is 28 years of age in LoC, and the earliest a man can spark is 18*. This means that currently Taim has been channeling a minimum of 6 years and a maximum of around 11 years (a year has passed since LoC).

 

We also know something of what he was doing during the time prior to his announcing himself Dragon 2 years ago--he says that he found five men over the years who could channel, though the only one who had the courage to go beyond the training went mad after 2 years. That two years, along with the comment of 'over the years' plus the 2 years after he announced himself Dragon is why I set up the 6 year minimum, though in truth I believe it to be longer.

 

Now even 6 years is a long time for Taim not to be showing signs of the Taint--both the mental instability, and the physical rotting. It’s not impossible of course, and some suggest that Taim's emotional instability and hubris might be a form of highly functional insanity, but even so, it seems a long time.

 

This is what I suggest. Around fifteen or sixteen years ago we know that Ishamael was in one of his free cycles (he personally physically forced Jarna Milari into the ter'angreal that killed her) and that he knew at the time that the Dragon Reborn had been born, and that Tarmon Gai'don was fast approaching. At this time I believe that he set out to gather channelers--beginning by testing and training men himself directly (and probably having women trained as well, Liandrin certainly infers as much in tFoH), and then setting them to go out and train men.

 

Why do I believe Taim is one such? For starters we know that Ishamael did it before, during the Trolloc Wars, so it makes sense that he would do it again. Secondly we have Taim's mannerisms--comments like 'so-called Aiel', the use of the lightning bolt sigil favoured by Sammael and Be'lal, the colouring of the tiles, the use of the Lord of Chaos comment--all of which imply significant long term exposure to the Forsaken and their mannerisms.

 

Beyond which he actually states it, he says he found five men--he claims only one of those men went beyond the testing, and that man went mad in two years, yet this almost certainly must be a lie because we know Taim is a darkfriend--one way or another he IS a darkfriend. Thirdly, he comments to Rand that if you use too much power in testing a man for the ability, the resonance MIGHT kill him, yet if he learned this through personal experience then one of those five men died, and there is no 'might' about it. His knowledge is too exactly technical.

 

So that, according to this theory, is Taim's origins. From there I believe he was commanded to announce himself Dragon by Ishamael and perform atrocities to spread and heighten fear of the Dragon. Certainly that’s implied by the few comments we have about his actions in that time, of what he did to Bashere's emissaries.

 

What Ties Taim to this Attack

 

1. Timing. We know that less than three days prior to the attack Taim was desperately seeking to learn Rand's location--and yes, he didn't get it from Logain, but even assuming one of Logain's men isn't a plant then there are 51 Aes Sedai who directly stated their intention to play on the rift between Logain and Taim who could have revealed it.

 

From there, the timing is perfect. Three days, time to go to the Trollocs, command them into the Ways, have them travel the Ways, leave at Stedding Shangtai, and make the trip from there down into northern Tear and the manor.

 

2. History. Taim is well known for assuming Forsaken characteristics and mannerisms. He copies their language, uses their designs (the fist holding three prongs of lightning) and colours (the use of Moridin's red and black). It would fit with his nature to appear as Sammael.

 

3. Modus Operendi. Whilst the attack makes no sense from one of the real Forsaken, It fits Taim. His methods are always blunt--this almost exactly matched what he did during the attack on the Sun Palace, throwing force blindly as long as it can't be traced to him with no real pause for thought or planning on the off chance that it succeed. It matches what he did with saving Rand from the Grey Man, the way he set up his inner cadre of darkfriends, the attack on Demira, the way he responded to Pevara....

 

Taim is blunt, and so was this attack.

 

Why Would Moridin Let Taim Do This?

 

Who says he’d know? Shaidar Haren’s presumed reasoning for raising a new Chosen is to provide the Dark One with resources outside the established second age power structure—Moridin may be nae’blis, may even be well trusted by the Dark One, but that doesn’t mean the Dark One will tell him everything that he is doing. Indeed, that would be against everything we’ve observed of his behaviour. Here are Semirhage’s thoughts on the matter.

 

Asmodean. A traitor, and so doomed, but he really had vanished, and Shaidar Haran's existence and her own orders here combined to remind her that the Great Lord worked in his own ways toward his own goals. The Chosen were no more than pieces on the board; they might be Counselors and Spires, but they were still pieces. If the Great Lord moved her here secretly, might he not be moving Moghedien or Lanfear, or even Asmodean? Might Shaidar Haran not be sent to deliver covert commands to Graendal or Sammael? Or for that matter, to Demandred or Mesaana? Their uneasy alliance—if it could be called by so strong a name—had lasted a long time, but neither would tell her if they received secret orders from the Great Lord, any more than she would ever let them learn of the orders that had brought her here, or those that had had her send Myrddraal and Trollocs to the Stone of Tear to battle those sent by Sammael

 

[LoC-6-Threads of Woven Shadow]

 

Moridin may be the greatest of the great pieces, but to the Dark One he is still a piece.

[fyodor]

Here's my covarage on the Forsaken v. Taim for this issue.

 

From that point we have the fact that the Forsaken lived through the war known as THE war of the power. They knew what the power could do against an army unprotected by their own channelers. Effectively they had no reason to expect Rand to be an idiot, and from their perspective launching such an attack serves no purpose but to bring Rand's attention back onto the Shadow, which seems counter-productive after all their hard work on spreading dissension and causing drama amongst the light, whilst keeping the Blight as quiet as a lamb. It certainly did with Lan's.

 

 

Maybe-but we've seen all sorts of similar attacks. Sammael sends shadowspawn to kill Rand in tFoH. There are Shadowspawn fighting Rodel Ituralde's team of Ashaman in ToM. Also, wouldn't Taim of all people have a pretty healthy respect for what channelers can do to normal troops? Taim also knows that Rand has Callandor, since Rand used it in front of Taim's lackeys.

 

Also, Taim knows specifically that Logain and his troops were going to Rand, which the other Forsaken do not. So Taim has reason to expect him to be better, not worse protected than the other Forsaken.

 

 

 

 

Cyndane or Moghedien

 

So, for the majority of the Forsaken this attack would be an adventure in stupidity, or at the least short sightedness. Cyndane and Moghedien are the exception to this. Due to their enslavement to Moridin their resources are limited, and both have a deep obsessive hatred for one of the people present at Algarin’s manor. Cyndane also knows the trick of finding Rand through his ta’maral’ailen. So, they each have a specific motive—revenge—and both are limited in how they can enact that revenge, therefore explaining the easy ‘hit-or-miss’ nature of the Shadowspawn attack.

 

Moridin certainly seems concerned about letting Cyndane too close to Rand—saying that she would ‘accidentally’ kill him, and we’ve seen Moghedien detour from Moridin’s orders to try and kill Nynaeve in the past. That being said, Moridin still remains the big problem in this. When Moghedien makes her small diversion to try and kill Nynaeve she’s nearly out of her mind with fear that Moridin will know. She states “Moridin's instructions had been explicit, the price of disobedience made excruciatingly clear,” and the same again at the Cleansing—this time reinforced by Cyndane who made a similar comment about disobedience.

 

 

Moghedien’s fear at a small detour essentially rules her out—she literally is out of her mind with fear, even with her babbling to herself that he had never forbidden this. He had forbidden Shadowspawn involvement with the Light, and blatant act like subverting a hundred thousand Trollocs is a hundred fold the risk her trying to kill Nynaeve was. Cyndane likely faces the same restrictions though she has been willing to risk herself in her obsession with Rand in the past. Still, disobeying Moridin in such an open way bears such risk to either woman as to by itself make this theory unlikely.

 

So, without the limited resources and desperation Moghedien and Cyndane provide us with we are left wondering why the Forsaken used such a desperate plan. This leads to three options.

 

1. The attack was incidental.

2. They really did wish to draw Rand's attention to the North.

3. It wasn't the Forsaken.

 

Once again, I don't see this being any more or less desperate than any of the other crap that the Forsaken have tried over the course of the books.

 

 

 

Sending a large force on the off chance of success against an enemy who could sweep them all aside like flotsam in a flood seems stupid and blunt. Moridin prides himself on the subtlety of his planning.

 

Once again, it doesn't seem that stupid or at least any less stupid than we've seen. You seem to be saying that the Forsaken would necessarily expect Rand to be armed with Callandor or the male access key and would not have any reason to think this would work.

 

Doesn't Semihrage's plan to capture Rand depend on Rand not having any of his Sa'Angreal? They obviously think that there's some possibility that he won't have them with him.

 

 

 

Demandred

 

The only thing going for Demandred is his military background, and that in some ways stands against him, because he more than most would appreciate the stupidity of attacking Rand with a force that had no channelers.

 

And Taim wouldn't?

 

 

 

Mazrim Taim

 

 

Origins

 

Firstly according to RJ he is 28 years of age in LoC, and the earliest a man can spark is 18*. This means that currently Taim has been channeling a minimum of 6 years and a maximum of around 11 years (a year has passed since LoC).

 

We also know (from New Spring) that some men don't start until their late 20s.

 

 

We also know something of what he was doing during the time prior to his announcing himself Dragon 2 years ago--he says that he found five men over the years who could channel, though the only one who had the courage to go beyond the training went mad after 2 years. That two years, along with the comment of 'over the years' plus the 2 years after he announced himself Dragon is why I set up the 6 year minimum, though in truth I believe it to be longer.

 

Now even 6 years is a long time for Taim not to be showing signs of the Taint--both the mental instability, and the physical rotting. It’s not impossible of course, and some suggest that Taim's emotional instability and hubris might be a form of highly functional insanity, but even so, it seems a long time.

 

Logain says in LoC that he had been channeling for six years. One or two of the false dragons in the index had reigns longer than six years and they presumably had been channeling for some time before declaring themselves.

 

Anyway, that's neither here nor there. I'm not disputing some sort of close relationship between Taim and Moridin.

 

 

1. Timing. We know that less than three days prior to the attack Taim was desperately seeking to learn Rand's location--and yes, he didn't get it from Logain, but even assuming one of Logain's men isn't a plant then there are 51 Aes Sedai who directly stated their intention to play on the rift between Logain and Taim who could have revealed it.

 

From there, the timing is perfect. Three days, time to go to the Trollocs, command them into the Ways, have them travel the Ways, leave at Stedding Shangtai, and make the trip from there down into northern Tear and the manor.

 

Aren't all the Forsaken looking for Rand? Doesn't Semihrage already know he's there?

 

2. History. Taim is well known for assuming Forsaken characteristics and mannerisms. He copies their language, uses their designs (the fist holding three prongs of lightning) and colours (the use of Moridin's red and black). It would fit with his nature to appear as Sammael.

 

3. Modus Operendi. Whilst the attack makes no sense from one of the real Forsaken, It fits Taim. His methods are always blunt--this almost exactly matched what he did during the attack on the Sun Palace, throwing force blindly as long as it can't be traced to him with no real pause for thought or planning on the off chance that it succeed. It matches what he did with saving Rand from the Grey Man, the way he set up his inner cadre of darkfriends, the attack on Demira, the way he responded to Pevara....

 

It seems like a lot of the Forsaken are blunt. Doesn't the stuff with Pevara go the other way? He lets Pevara's team also bond Ashaman (contrary to Rand's orders) as a way of weakening Logain's contingent of non Darkfriend channelers. That seems reasonably subtle.

 

 

Why Would Moridin Let Taim Do This?

 

Who says he’d know? Shaidar Haren’s presumed reasoning for raising a new Chosen is to provide the Dark One with resources outside the established second age power structure—Moridin may be nae’blis, may even be well trusted by the Dark One, but that doesn’t mean the Dark One will tell him everything that he is doing. Indeed, that would be against everything we’ve observed of his behaviour. Here are Semirhage’s thoughts on the matter.

 

Asmodean. A traitor, and so doomed, but he really had vanished, and Shaidar Haran's existence and her own orders here combined to remind her that the Great Lord worked in his own ways toward his own goals. The Chosen were no more than pieces on the board; they might be Counselors and Spires, but they were still pieces. If the Great Lord moved her here secretly, might he not be moving Moghedien or Lanfear, or even Asmodean? Might Shaidar Haran not be sent to deliver covert commands to Graendal or Sammael? Or for that matter, to Demandred or Mesaana? Their uneasy alliance—if it could be called by so strong a name—had lasted a long time, but neither would tell her if they received secret orders from the Great Lord, any more than she would ever let them learn of the orders that had brought her here, or those that had had her send Myrddraal and Trollocs to the Stone of Tear to battle those sent by Sammael

 

[LoC-6-Threads of Woven Shadow]

 

Moridin may be the greatest of the great pieces, but to the Dark One he is still a piece.

 

 

Why would Taim disobey him if the other Forsaken are terrified of doing so? Taim, moreso than the other Forsaken, is pretty clearly tied to Moridin. He uses Moridin's colors, dresses his troops up like Moridin's servants, Moridin has Ashaman messengers, etc. Why would he be more likely than one of the known Forsaken to disobey standing orders?

[Bromo Sapien]

Going back to a point raised earlier in the thread, I think the 13x13 trick he's been using proves Taim has control over Shadowspawn. In the last chapter of KoD, Pevara goes to see Taim and notes that "Perhaps a hundred men in black coats were standing to either side of the room. Every man she could see wore the sword and the dragon, men with hard faces, leering faces, cruel faces." This makes it pretty clear that there are at least 100 full Asha'man devoted to Taim at the end of KoD in the Black Tower alone; accounting for the others that were out of the BT or just weren't at the meeting at that time, there could be anywhere from 125-200 full Taim'man.

 

If the proportions from the Wiki article on Asha'man can be trusted (29 Asha'man, 97 Dedicated, and 322 Soldiers; no reference so I'm not entirely sure when that roll call happened), using the most conservative numbers (ie, all Asha'man at the BT except Logain are Taim'man and they were all at the meeting), that would mean there are 334 Dedicated and 1110 Soldiers. Those are probably a bit unrealistic, especially the number of Soldiers, so let's say an even 1000 between all three levels (close to AS numbers), which is a fairly conservative estimate.

 

Taim obviously isn't only 13x13ing full Asha'man; he's turning a hell of a lot of Dedicateds as well, and I can assume a few Soldiers as well, if their potential is high enough to warrant attention. He controls a hell of a lot of the Asha'man, say at least 75-80%, and if he 13x13ed half of those, he converted at least 350 by force. That's almost one a day; depending on how long it takes (and I'm assuming it takes a good amount of time and energy, since they're corrupting an entire soul), he must control more than one set of Myrddraal. I can't imagine him taking one person a day (a pattern like that would be way too noticeable), so to get those numbers, I would say he has a significant amount of Myrddraal in the camp. Creatures with such a strong will like Myrddraal wouldn't want to stay couped up and hidden as they are except under direct orders.

 

In recap, Taim must have direct control over Myrddraal (and therefore be Chosen) in order to A) have enough to account for the number of conversions he's done and B) to keep them hidden from Logain's crew/ the entire Light side. #WhiteAjahProof

[fyodor]

I don't get the impression that all or most of the DF Ashaman have been converted. Most of them don't have the weird eye-emptiness found in the turned channelers. I think that he's mostly just been gathering thuggish and Darkfriend-prone people to be his personal cadre.

[RandA lThor]

That's what I thought too, he was after all in charge of the recruiting first and then used people he had already recruited to recruit more.

[Bromo Sapien]

The dead eye look was only noticed when Norley looked more deeply into Mezar's eyes and Pevara only noticed because she knew Tarna well. None of the other AS noticed her change, so it could just not have been remarked upon. I assumed that most of the early ones were DFs from the beginning but there's no way Taim was able to find hundreds upon hundreds of male channelers who were all Darkfriends while finding almost no Lightbound ones, especially considering his recruiting methods. He must have converted quite a bit of them, even if my estimates were a bit high. That requires Myrddraal on call, which means my second point about hiding the Fades still stands.

[Sharaman]

Think of it the other way around.

Suppose that every DF was ordered to take the resonance test with Taim.

That way, he would find every DF who was a saidin channeler and it may be enough for his purposes.

[Dagon Thyne]

Taim is obviously a new age chosen, as seen from his direct quote "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule"

This is only a directive give to the chosen, not to ordinary darkfriends who are often left in the dark as to what is happening.

 

Not only do we have this direct quote, but obviously some of the chosen need to be replaced after Rank killing so many off.

 

I beleive that Taim in a new chosen as well. Some feel that this contridicts Egwene's dream about the Forsaken, but it really does not, since her dream was about the original chosen, and any new ones, who were given the position after she had it would not be mentioned. I think Taim will be put in charge of the Dreadlords during the last battle, and lead the Shadow's non-chosen channelors.

[RandA lThor]

If Logain doesn't kill him first.

[FarShainMael]

The dead eye look was only noticed when Norley looked more deeply into Mezar's eyes and Pevara only noticed because she knew Tarna well. None of the other AS noticed her change, so it could just not have been remarked upon. I assumed that most of the early ones were DFs from the beginning but there's no way Taim was able to find hundreds upon hundreds of male channelers who were all Darkfriends while finding almost no Lightbound ones, especially considering his recruiting methods. He must have converted quite a bit of them, even if my estimates were a bit high. That requires Myrddraal on call, which means my second point about hiding the Fades still stands.

 

There's another problem with doing lots of forced conversions. From

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=135#38

 

INTERVIEW: Apr 6th, 2001

 

Dromen and Demonen Chat (Verbatim)

 

PUNISHER

 

Have you ever thought about reinstituting some of the old ideas from earlier books? For example, in The Dragon Reborn you had a situation with thirteen dark sisters and thirteen Myrddraal to forcibly convert someone to the darker side of things. It seems you have abandoned that. Do you think you might have something like that pop up again at some unexpected moment? It doesn't seem realistic for the Black Ajah to abandon the idea.

 

ROBERT JORDAN

 

I have not abandoned this notion that a circle of thirteen Aes Sedai and thirteen Myrddraal can convert someone to the Shadow. It is not an easy situation to set up; in fact it's a very difficult situation to set up. It has to be worth the effort, you don't go to all of this effort to just convert anyone. In fact it might be better for your plans to manipulate someone against their will than as a willing ally.

 

(emphasis mine)

 

Also I think I read somewhere that the 13-13 process destroys the Myrddraal used - but I can't find a quote supporting that. Anybody know?

 

(Edited to correct link)

[RandA lThor]

Oh yeah i remember that being said, if that is true, can you imagine how many myrrdrall would have died to convert them to DFs. Some have to be DFs from the beginning.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Had a look through the database, there is no actual confirmation by Brandon or RJ stating this there.

 

IT has been a popular theory though, and makes sense.

 

But there is no real evidence to suggest that this is the case, besides the fact that it is rare, and very difficult to set up. (which can obviously be taken various ways)

[fyodor]

The dead eye look was only noticed when Norley looked more deeply into Mezar's eyes and Pevara only noticed because she knew Tarna well. None of the other AS noticed her change, so it could just not have been remarked upon. I assumed that most of the early ones were DFs from the beginning but there's no way Taim was able to find hundreds upon hundreds of male channelers who were all Darkfriends while finding almost no Lightbound ones, especially considering his recruiting methods. He must have converted quite a bit of them, even if my estimates were a bit high. That requires Myrddraal on call, which means my second point about hiding the Fades still stands.

 

Mezar's abrupt change of loyalties and personality was also noted and questioned by everyone. Contrast this to when they note that Mishraile was participating in Taim's classes. People are worried but not shocked.

 

If everyone was changing loyalties and personalities abruptly we'd have heard something about it. Taim doesn't have "hundreds" of favorites. He has something like 90 of them as of Knife of Dreams, out of 500-600 Ashaman.It wouldn't shock me if people willing to risk insanity for power were more prone to being Darkfriends or if Taim could recruit people more directly from known Darkfriends.