Cadsuane

[Restausn1]

I thing Cads is an awesome character. I think both authors did a great job with her to wring such a strong emotional emotional response from we readers.

Loved it when Rand finally put her in place, told her he was the only living male Aes Sedai that was raised properly and not turned to the shadow. That set her back a bit! And then scared the crap out of her during the meeting with the Boarderlanders, and she is pretty unshakable!

 

Should be good when Cads meets up with Egwene (who also needs taking down a few pegs now), (I think Perrin will do that BTW, with help from Moiraine).

What do you guys think?

[XXX]

 

Cadsuane treats people appropriate to their behaviour--so when Rand acts like a brat, she treats him like a brat. But she is perfectly happy to offer the opposite--when someone acts in a way worthy of respect, she grants that respect.

 

And that type of my way or the highway attitude may be a right one only when you are the top dog..like how she is with the other AS. She can kick them around(justifiably) and they cannot do anything about it. It is a different story with Rand..he is more powerful than her and she has no hold over him..emotionally or otherwise. And she never bothered to establish any emotional connection with him.The only hold she had was Min's viewing to Rand that he needed Cads. If Rand did not have that information..he would not have tolerated Cads at all and anyway in the end when he broke, Cads barely got away with her life.

[Anomandaris]

most of you people either fail to realize, or are ignoring Cadsuanes self appointed task in the books. Admittedly, she's an easily unlikable characte but her role in the story is a verry important one: she represents rands concsience. His Humanity (it's only a repeated theme in the books)... if Rand looses his humanity - his moral center - he cant win. Cadsuane - annoying as i may find her - keeps Rand grounded through his darkest moments. Furthermore, to those of you who keep referimg to Cadsuane as "top dog" and commenting on her "top dog" attitude, considder this: cadsuane just reemerged from her SELF IMPOSED exile. Until now, she had been living a life of WILLING obscurity. There is no pretention to Cadsuane. I end this with a final word to member Morsker - "I mostly decline to take Cadsuane seriously; I see her more as an expression of author bias than as a character in the story. Robert Jordan apparently liked hazing, bullying and other disrespect of young people. He associates maturity with cruelty. I find it offensive, and I won't take excuses for it" - in cadsuane, maturity is not associative to cruelty but to wisdom. and you speak of author bias when you your self are too biased toward Rand to realize Cadsuanes importance. I mean, i too, i dislike cadsuane as a character but at least i can distance myself enough to aknowledge her importance.

[SuperFade]

if Rand looses his humanity - his moral center - he cant win. Cadsuane - annoying as i may find her - keeps Rand grounded through his darkest moments.

 

Min was the one who kept Rand grounded through the dark times. Cadsuane was the one who nearly sent him off the deep end.

 

Now Tam facing down the remarkably adaptable [albeit beligerent] Cadsuane that Jordan wrote and notated, as opposed to the dumb [albeit beligerent] one Brandon wrote... that would have been probably one of the best scenes in the series.

 

It's a shame so many seem to dislike the scene where Tam tells her exactly what she is. And they're invariably smugly arrogant complaints about how Robert Jordan would obviously have written it better than that damn hack Sanderson who clearly and obviously let his own bias dictate how the scene played out. Accusing him of doing so is quite a disservice considering how anxious he's been to get everything exactly how Jordan wanted it.

[Luckers]

It's a shame so many seem to dislike the scene where Tam tells her exactly what she is. And they're invariably smugly arrogant complaints about how Robert Jordan would obviously have written it better than that damn hack Sanderson who clearly and obviously let his own bias dictate how the scene played out. Accusing him of doing so is quite a disservice considering how anxious he's been to get everything exactly how Jordan wanted it.

 

Actually, I personally feel it has very little to do with bias, and more to do with his writing methodology. His style is all about slapping down words on a page and getting on to the next thing, and as a result both his character and plot work is blunt, simplistic and unpolished, relying on fan and plot gratification to pull the weight of the narative.

 

The end product is that characters under Brandon invariably are informed by a blunt assessment of their motivations, thus resulting in a deeply literal portrayal. Cadsuane, rather than being the exception, is merely an example in which this is made particularily noticeable due to the degree of negativity in Brandon's assessment of her. Other examples would include Berelain and her wierd niave 'me + Perrin + sex = treaty with the Dragon', or Olver and his nearly sociopathic understanding of his relationship with Mat, but it is present in pretty much every scene, and every character.

 

When you add this to Brandon's tendency to compromise secondary character to make primrary characters look good during confrontational scenes--and yes, its pretty shoddy writing.

[supersprode]

You know, it's not that she's a bully that bothers her. In fact i think my favorite scenes were when Egwene was imprisoned and they were beating her. I could read about Egwene's beatings for hours, and wish there was more of it. Phaw! But i guess it's hard to create a character and introduce her as a legend, and live up to her legendness, so he instead made her an angry redneck kind of person to sort of contrast the legend he introduced, because works better than not living up to a legend. Still, she annoys the ever living hell out of me and i hope she dies painfully. About as 2 dimensional as any character in the book, just barks orders, makes stupid expletives, and knows everything. Thankfully, most of her appearances are dispersed through Egwene being totured so I was able to bear with it somewhat.

[Suttree]

And they're invariably smugly arrogant complaints about how Robert Jordan would obviously have written it better than that damn hack Sanderson who clearly and obviously let his own bias dictate how the scene played out. Accusing him of doing so is quite a disservice considering how anxious he's been to get everything exactly how Jordan wanted it.

 

Critiquing someone's work is doing them a disservice? BS was forced to write TGS and ToM far to quickly. He was not able to do the proper number of revisions and spend time really polishing his work, this leads to blunt prose. He has admitted as such and changed his methods in aMoL to get it right. The quality of writing suffering do to it being rushed has been the focus of every critique I have read. Care to provide quotes of people calling him a hack?

 

Luckers is correct, Cadsuane is merely one example of many, that happens to stand out do to his personnel opinion.

 

most of you people either fail to realize, or are ignoring Cadsuanes self appointed task in the books. Admittedly, she's an easily unlikable characte but her role in the story is a verry important one: she represents rands concsience. His Humanity (it's only a repeated theme in the books)... if Rand looses his humanity - his moral center - he cant win. Cadsuane - annoying as i may find her - keeps Rand grounded through his darkest moments. Furthermore, to those of you who keep referimg to Cadsuane as "top dog" and commenting on her "top dog" attitude, considder this: cadsuane just reemerged from her SELF IMPOSED exile. Until now, she had been living a life of WILLING obscurity. There is no pretention to Cadsuane. I end this with a final word to member Morsker - "I mostly decline to take Cadsuane seriously; I see her more as an expression of author bias than as a character in the story. Robert Jordan apparently liked hazing, bullying and other disrespect of young people. He associates maturity with cruelty. I find it offensive, and I won't take excuses for it" - in cadsuane, maturity is not associative to cruelty but to wisdom. and you speak of author bias when you your self are too biased toward Rand to realize Cadsuanes importance. I mean, i too, i dislike cadsuane as a character but at least i can distance myself enough to aknowledge her importance.

 

 

Very good point Anomandaris. All true and well said.

[Luckers]

And they're invariably smugly arrogant complaints about how Robert Jordan would obviously have written it better than that damn hack Sanderson who clearly and obviously let his own bias dictate how the scene played out. Accusing him of doing so is quite a disservice considering how anxious he's been to get everything exactly how Jordan wanted it.

 

Critiquing someone's work is doing them a disservice? BS was forced to write TGS and ToM far to quickly. He was not able to do the proper number of revisions and spend time really polishing his work, this leads to blunt prose. He has admitted as such and changed his methods in aMoL to get it right. The quality of writing suffering do to it being rushed has been the focus of every critique I have read. Care to provide quotes of people calling him a hack?

 

Well, Stephen Donaldson, author of the Thomas Covenant Chronicals sort of did. That's the only example I can think of. Here's the quote.

 

Bryan Jones: I have read both yours and Robert Jordans books(and many others) and enjoy reading them completely. As a reader I am confused by your denial to read Jordan. When I found out that Jordan was going to pass away without finishing his last book leaving his lagecy unfinished I was saddened. When I found out they were looking for an author to finish his books I was surprised that you were not first on the list. Is there an anamosity between you and Jordan? I think you would be the first and only author that could do justice to the Wheel of Time. Would there be any way for you to be a part of the developement of the last book? It will be a shame for a story to end horribly when I know that you could make the ending book the best it could be.

 

 

Stephen Donaldson: I can't answer a message like this. It's a bit like asking, "Why haven't you stopped beating your wife?" There are so many underlying--and unwarrented--assumptions that no answer is possible.

 

Just one example. Why do you think that I would consider giving up my own work for the sake of someone else's? Does that sound reasonable to you?

 

But I'm posting this because I want to make a more general point. I wouldn't agree to work with someone else's characters, settings, themes, or stories, even if you held a gun to my head. That's what hacks are for. (Don't get me wrong. Being a hack can be a perfectly honorable profession. It simply isn't *my* profession.) Now, if you held a gun to the head of someone I love, I would naturally agree to anything. But I would be lying. Unashamedly. Stalling for time until I could take a whack at you. The very idea of trying to do someone else's work fills me with existential nausea.

 

That being said, I believe Superfade was inferring that I was stating that Brandon is a hack, which I was not. If I thought he was a hack, I'd simply say it. Indeed, recently--at his request--I sent him an 11,000 word email detailing criticism of his work on the Wheel, something I would never have done if I did not respect him--after all, why make the effort for a hack who will simply disregard it.

[thom_merrilin]

Listening to audios I have noticed even more how smug, arrogant and self-centered Cadsuane is. She doesn't like it when people disagree with her. If a word is used she doesn't like she either threatens them or strikes them. This is exactly how a bully works. Cadsuane has to be better than anyone, she needs to be the best in the room. her intense dislike of wilders is sickening, as her bullying attitude.

All the she is doing it for Rand's sake is rubbish. It is because she cannot stand being seen as less than any other Aes Sedai or channeler. If there is one person I want to see die in aMoL Cadsaune is top of the list.

[Suttree]

Listening to audios I have noticed even more how smug, arrogant and self-centered Cadsuane is. She doesn't like it when people disagree with her. If a word is used she doesn't like she either threatens them or strikes them. This is exactly how a bully works. Cadsuane has to be better than anyone, she needs to be the best in the room.

 

This is patently false. She often is the best in the room but when not we see her use various tactics such as admitting mistakes to Sorilea and forging an alliance. She could care less about being best as long as her mission succeeds. She almost always has a very distinct reason for every action.

 

her intense dislike of wilders is sickening, as her bullying attitude.

 

Not sure where this even comes from? If anything she has more respect for them than any AS based on her time with Norla in the Black Hills where she earned her paralis-net.

 

All the she is doing it for Rand's sake is rubbish.

 

She came out of retirement, not to help the save the world and teach the DR what he needs to know, but because she can't stand to be less than other AS. Ermmm yea.

 

Take a look through RJ's notes on the character and really pay attention to what is actually going on. You have seriously misinterpreted the character.

http://www.theorylan...vmain.php?i=652

[RandA lThor]

Those points are true, but even Cadsuane admits that she does do that like when she realizes that she is just like Semirhage.

[EmperorMayhem]

it's a shame that so many of you bash Sanderson's "portrayal" of a character. does it ever occur to you that he's writing the books the way RJ planned them? or that certain scenes were already written by him before Sanderson came along, and that there's little chance of us figuring out which part is done by whom? he has already stated in the last couple years that its interesting how some of the scenes he wrote are being praised as RJ work, and some of RJ's last scenes he wrote before he died are being ridiculed as Sanderson rubbish...

 

bottom line is this: read the last WOT books, enjoy them, be thankful to RJ for his wisdom in planning this out to be completed accurately, and be thankful to Sanderson for signing on to finish RJ's work- and to finish it accurately. don't nit-pick and decide parts are badly written or written in a way RJ would not have approved of. Don't forget that there are others working to ensure everything sticks to the plan set up by RJ- his wife/editor, and staff like Maria, etc. etc.

 

trust them to know how to write a book the way it has to be written without being overly critical. I highly doubt that a character like Cadsuane or any other character in the series for that matter, would be changed by Sanderson, if RJ hadn't planned it that way. I can see it happening for minor characters, but she is kind of a main one.

[RandA lThor]

I don't get the Sanderson hate either. Sure, i don't like some of the characters after Sanderson started liking, but that was because of the plot, not because of writing style. Plus, in books like these there should be characters who you don't like.

[condonmc]

Just reread whole post, when does cadsuane ever spank Rand?

[RandA lThor]

I think she slaps him not spanks him

[Mr Ares]

it's a shame that so many of you bash Sanderson's "portrayal" of a character. does it ever occur to you that he's writing the books the way RJ planned them? or that certain scenes were already written by him before Sanderson came along, and that there's little chance of us figuring out which part is done by whom? he has already stated in the last couple years that its interesting how some of the scenes he wrote are being praised as RJ work, and some of RJ's last scenes he wrote before he died are being ridiculed as Sanderson rubbish...

 

bottom line is this: read the last WOT books, enjoy them, be thankful to RJ for his wisdom in planning this out to be completed accurately, and be thankful to Sanderson for signing on to finish RJ's work- and to finish it accurately. don't nit-pick and decide parts are badly written or written in a way RJ would not have approved of. Don't forget that there are others working to ensure everything sticks to the plan set up by RJ- his wife/editor, and staff like Maria, etc. etc.

 

trust them to know how to write a book the way it has to be written without being overly critical. I highly doubt that a character like Cadsuane or any other character in the series for that matter, would be changed by Sanderson, if RJ hadn't planned it that way. I can see it happening for minor characters, but she is kind of a main one.

Actually, the characters can't help but change. RJ would have envisaged the characters in a certain way, and each reader will in turn interpret the characters a certain way, based on what RJ has provided (or, in several cases, with no regard for what RJ has written). That interpretation extends to BS, Harriet, Alan and Maria as well as us. RJ's vision of the characters died with him. If RJ presents a character in a certain way, and then the fans have an interpretation that conflicts with how BS sees things, that doesn't necessarily make his view of them invalid or wrong, but it does create a conflict between how we see a character and how he sees that character. Talmanes is a good example: some people, including Brandon, saw him as someone whose sense of humour went unnoticed by Mat. Others, including Harriet, saw him in the same way Mat saw him. In TGS, BS wrote his interpretation of Talmanes. It conflicted with Harriet's. So, whose was correct? Which did RJ favour? It's only natural that with a new perspective, different character traits will be emphasised, while others are reduced to the background. No character in TGS and ToM is written precisely the way RJ would have written them. Sometimes, this difference is more marked than others.

[EmperorMayhem]

I see your point, and you're probably right. only generally speaking though. unless you get reports that express specifically from brandon and harriet for example, that one thought a character should be one way, and the other disagreed, it'll just be one fan's opinion over anothers. one fan's opinion over brandon's. i'm going to stick with my main point- that we should try to complain a little less about Sanderson's work, and be more thankful for a completed WOT. yes, in a way you're right, but i'm kinda getting tired of people being so negative.

[Wheel of Thyme]

Its been said that you can judge others by the way they treat those "beneath" them, or serving them; a waiter, housekeeper, a secretary. So, I don't judge Cadsuane based on the way she treated The Dragon Reborn, Lords and Ladies of the land, or powerful Aes Sedai, but on how she treated a simple serving man.

 

In Far Madding, she was quite rude and arrogant and even uppity to Aleis's servant. "I'll allow you to run tell Aleis I'm here as fast as your legs can carry you, boy...tell her I'll be in the dome, and tell her I don't have all day. Well? Hop!" (Winters Heart chapter 24) Is how she treated the fellow, in response to his polite query to her. So, based on that interaction, I do not like the character as written.

[Suttree]

In Far Madding, she was quite rude and arrogant and even uppity to Aleis's servant. "I'll allow you to run tell Aleis I'm here as fast as your legs can carry you, boy...tell her I'll be in the dome, and tell her I don't have all day. Well? Hop!" (Winters Heart chapter 24) Is how she treated the fellow, in response to his polite query to her. So, based on that interaction, I do not like the character as written.

 

As has been mentioned numerous times she almost always has a very specific reason for her actions. This was all part of her master plan in Far Madding. It's not as if she just randomly abused a servant. In fact we see her just about unfailingly treat everyone based upon the level of respect they deserve. You don't get to her position in life by randomly treating those "beneath" them badly.

[RandA lThor]

You have to admit thought that she does have a certain happiness in putting people down, she said herself that her worst fear would to be put down herself, she even compared herself to Semirhage in the way that they were both disdainful of others.

[Suttree]

You have to admit thought that she does have a certain happiness in putting people down, she said herself that her worst fear would to be put down herself, she even compared herself to Semirhage in the way that they were both disdainful of others.

 

We have never seen her express joy in putting other people down. Not once in the entire series. All she cares for is completing the mission at hand by any means necessary. That isn't to say she has not gotten used to being top dog. However when she comes up short she has no problem admitting fault and treating others as equals as she does with Sorilea. In addition in comparing herself to Semirhage it has nothing to do with being disdainful of others. She discusses the cultivated image that they both have earned from legendary exploits and how having that shattered would be a terrible blow.

 

TGS Ch.17

Cadsuane "tsk"ed and began again. The crowd in the room watched in amazed silence. Semirhage began to cry—not from the pain, but from the humiliation. That was the key. Semirhage could not be defeated by pain or by persuasion—but destroying her image, that would be more terrible in her mind than any other punishment. Just as it would have been for Cadsuane.

[Wheel of Thyme]

In Far Madding, she was quite rude and arrogant and even uppity to Aleis's servant. "I'll allow you to run tell Aleis I'm here as fast as your legs can carry you, boy...tell her I'll be in the dome, and tell her I don't have all day. Well? Hop!" (Winters Heart chapter 24) Is how she treated the fellow, in response to his polite query to her. So, based on that interaction, I do not like the character as written.

 

As has been mentioned numerous times she almost always has a very specific reason for her actions. This was all part of her master plan in Far Madding. It's not as if she just randomly abused a servant. In fact we see her just about unfailingly treat everyone based upon the level of respect they deserve. You don't get to her position in life by randomly treating those "beneath" them badly.

 

But thats just it...she does not apparently feel or believe that a servant deserves respect or the courtesy of a polite interaction. I do not respect her; she is a bully.

[Mr Ares]

In Far Madding, she was quite rude and arrogant and even uppity to Aleis's servant. "I'll allow you to run tell Aleis I'm here as fast as your legs can carry you, boy...tell her I'll be in the dome, and tell her I don't have all day. Well? Hop!" (Winters Heart chapter 24) Is how she treated the fellow, in response to his polite query to her. So, based on that interaction, I do not like the character as written.

As has been mentioned numerous times she almost always has a very specific reason for her actions. This was all part of her master plan in Far Madding. It's not as if she just randomly abused a servant. In fact we see her just about unfailingly treat everyone based upon the level of respect they deserve. You don't get to her position in life by randomly treating those "beneath" them badly.

But thats just it...she does not apparently feel or believe that a servant deserves respect or the courtesy of a polite interaction. I do not respect her; she is a bully.

You base your view on her being a bully on one interaction? Cadsuane has many interactions with those who are beneath her - lower ranked AS and wilders, for example. She is not a bully or dismissive of their abilities or worth. She does not believe that this servant - who did come across as somewhat patronising - is deserving of the polite interaction that he failed to offer her, but that does not indicate an across the board poor attitude towards her lessers.

[Plato]

It's probably already been said, but Cadsuane treats people as they deserve to be treated. When Rand acts like a spoiled brat, she treats him like one. When other Aes Sedai act like little school girls, she treats them as such. She is also very goal oriented, doing things for a reason. She is how Aes Sedai are supposed to be, instead of the whining, hapless, and downright ignorant Aes Sedai we often get.

[Terez]

Zombie quote, since I saw this mentioned a couple of times.

 

Meh, the second she meets mat her ego will burst ike a popped baloon Remember what hsppned to joline.

 

RJ said that Cadsuane has a ter'angreal much like Mat's, so if anyone knows how to get around his medallion (and it can be gotten around), then Cadsuane will know how. But I highly doubt she and Mat will have any kind of run-in.

 

PS, for Luckers: If knowledge of how to disarm Cadsuane's wards came from Sorilea, then she is at least partly culpable for the disaster that followed. She trusted the wrong person. Of course, that makes her no more culpable than Rand, who put Taim in charge of the Black Tower.