Galad and Elayne

[MatTuon]

I'm in the midst of my reread of The Dragon Reborn and I see that I am no better at understanding Elayne's problem with Galad or her insistance on stating that he is not her brother. I know, I know, he always does what is right, how awful, lmao. I just find her anger at him rather over the top, especially since he saved her brothers life at one point, which she mentions in her conversation with Eugene in the chapter I am on at the moment. What am I missing? How much older is he than them. I just can't understand why she seems so bitter about him. It is something that I have always found rather annoying about her character.

[Alric]

I don't find it hard to believe at all. At the beginning of the series Elayne is 17 or 18, and should be somewhat annoyed by a protective and lecturing older sibling. Add to that that they only share the same father, and tons of father issues (Taringail's scheming and possibly plans to have Morgase killed). It's hard to believe that a teenage Elayne would have liked him regardless of his personality.

 

I can't speak for the content in the later books, but so far in my current re-read, Elayne's repeated insistence that he is not her brother seems to be mainly a giant, flashing red herring from RJ. While I did fall for it at one point, I now believe its unlikely, and that it simply shows us typical behavior of a girl of her age. I'm sure RJ thoroughly enjoyed seeing people speculate about it though.

 

 

[Tyzack]

On a side note, when I originally read the series I was a teenager, and I didn't really pick up on all the teenagerism of the characters in the first few books. It is one of the more enjoyable parts of the re-read.

[Pinzarn]

I also think it is a spin off of a "daddy issue". If I remember correctly, her father spent more time with Galad than with the other two.

 

"As a young boy, Gawyn barely knows Taringail, his father, who spends all his time with Galad. (TFoH,Ch16)" - from http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/

[GYLD]

I know, I know, he always does what is right, how awful, lmao.

 

By "doing what is right" Galad turned the streets of Samara into riots when he seized a ship from Dragonsworn. He is singled minded to a fault and as best demonstrated in the Samara incident, his actions can lead to collateral damage. While this example is not the source of Elayne's frustration with her brother, it does exemplify that always doing what you perceive is right is not always a virtue.

[Yamahako]

Galad was born between 969NE and 972NE (War between Andor and Carhein ended 969, Tigraine ran to the Waste in 972) meaning that when the Trollocs attacked the Two Rivers (the first time), he was 26-29 years old. Novices are sent to the tower between 16 and 18 years old. My guess is that this would put Elayne at 15 (just shy of 16) when Rand meets her (she would have been sent to the tower as soon as possible). This makes her between 11 and 14 years younger than Galad. That is a HUGE age gap. Between this, and his propensity to tattle on her whenever she did anything wrong (no matter how fun it was, or how little it hurt anyone, or how much trouble she would get in), would for sure create a lot of animosity between those siblings. Galad would be more like a father or uncle than a brother. Gawyn, however, is a couple of years older than Rand (20 at the start of the books), putting him at 22 or 23 when Rand meets him. That means he's only 4 - 7 years younger than Galad, so probably grew up looking up to him and wanting to be like him (this has been directly mentioned in the books), not to mention the life saving thing. This probably explains why he doesn't share his sister's sentiments.

 

I think Galad and Elayne's problem is related to her relationship to her brother being strained by their age gap, and his personality. And exacerbated by Elayne's ability to view them as not sharing a mother (and she would barely have known her father) so not feeling a strong familial connection like a kid telling his step parent "You're not my father!".

[Maleshub]

We've seen Galad's evolution from "black and white" to a reasonably open-minded man of honor. Morgase, in her role as the judge in Perrin's trial and its prelude, played a good role in making Galad see things more realistically. And I'm sure Berelain will have further "impact" on Galad.

 

In the meeting between Morgase, Galad, and Elayne after the former queen returned to Camelyn, Elayne's reception to her brother was not as negative as it would have been. In fact, his saving her life and Nynaeve's by getting the ship was the beginning of Galad's transformation; and that incident reduced Elayne's negativity towards him.

[Suttree]

I know, I know, he always does what is right, how awful, lmao.

 

By "doing what is right" Galad turned the streets of Samara into riots when he seized a ship from Dragonsworn. He is singled minded to a fault and as best demonstrated in the Samara incident, his actions can lead to collateral damage. While this example is not the source of Elayne's frustration with her brother, it does exemplify that always doing what you perceive is right is not always a virtue.

 

Yup, although he has grown in recent books at the time "always does what's right, no matter who it hurts,".

[David Selig]

Not that strange really. Undoubtedly Galad told on Elayne about her committing some childish mischief or other hundreds of times, and she's still 16 or 17 for most of the series, so still remembers that vividly.

[Alric]

*nitpicking mode*

 

She's described as being the same age as Egwene from what I can remember. Egwene is referred to as 2 or 3 years younger than Rand at various points, so it would be safe to assume she's 2 1/2 years younger. If that's what we have to go by for Elayne, I would assume 17 is the best guess, at least at the time Rand met her the first time (late spring or summer 998). Rand had turned 20 not long ago at that time.

[David Selig]

It's mentioned in LoC that Elayne was 18 when she met Tylin, which happened at the end of 999 NE.

[MatTuon]

Undoubtedly Galad told on Elayne about her committing some childish mischief or other hundreds of times, and she's still 16 or 17 for most of the series, so still remembers that vividly.

I guess that is the problem that I have with her constant statements, because unless I'm not remembering something she never mentions anything specific, I could understand her bitterness more, if she told of something that he did that caused her extreme grief. But she just consistantly seems to give off the same blanket speech about how he always does what was right, even Min says the exact same words in one of her chapters. He seems to be pretty much a loving brother, albeit an annoying one if you don't want to be tattled on, lmao.

[Alric]

It's mentioned in LoC that Elayne was 18 when she met Tylin, which happened at the end of 999 NE.

I think I remember that, she mentiones the Amyrlin being 18 as well, doesn't she? This doesn't add up....

[Kahsm]

I know, I know, he always does what is right, how awful, lmao.

 

By "doing what is right" Galad turned the streets of Samara into riots when he seized a ship from Dragonsworn. He is singled minded to a fault and as best demonstrated in the Samara incident, his actions can lead to collateral damage. While this example is not the source of Elayne's frustration with her brother, it does exemplify that always doing what you perceive is right is not always a virtue.

 

Yup, although he has grown in recent books at the time "always does what's right, no matter who it hurts,".

 

Galad doesn't judge the moral worth of his actions based on the outcomes, which is actually quite noble, to do what is right simply because it's the right thing to do. There was a bit of a suggestion in a previous post that he's actually wrong and he does what he "thinks" is right. But it's not that he's wrong, it's just a different ethical ideology than what most people tend to practice. Warders are kind of similar really (At least in their duty, which tends to encompass their whole life), they'll do just about anything to anyone or any group to adhere to their "rules".

 

Take the classic runaway train for example. Most people say they would choose to pull a switch and divert a runaway train from killing 5 and instead kill 1. However, there's more to that. Most people also answer that they would not push a person in front of a train to save five. The quantitative moral choice is the same, but most people weigh the choices quite differently, being the direct cause of a death is different than being secondary through some innate switching mechanism.

 

Even your average Joe is not strictly utilitarian. Galad just takes it a few steps further -- the outcome is irrelevant. It's a deontological philosophy, consider what's right, not the outcome. I mean you can disagree with that philosophy, but that doesn't make him wrong or unethical.

[David Selig]

It's mentioned in LoC that Elayne was 18 when she met Tylin, which happened at the end of 999 NE.

I think I remember that, she mentiones the Amyrlin being 18 as well, doesn't she? This doesn't add up....

Why not? Egwene and Elayne are the same age, that's well established in the books.

[Alric]

I'm sorry, I was not being clear. Yep, I was quite sure of that, but the timeline didn't make sense to me with that info from LoC.

 

We know that Rand was born in spring 978, and that Egwene is 2-3 years younger, the age mentions typically hint at 3, but every time there difference is spoken about, its 2. If we add 2.5 years, that is ~fall 980. There's no way she could be 18 at the end of 999 then. If we push her date of birth to early 981, it matches. But then she is very close to 3 years younger, and she is described several times as 2 years younger, in fact searching through the earlier books now, I found three mentions, two which says "two years" and one that says "he had only a little over two years on Egwene" (FoH: 3).

 

 

[David Selig]

Egwene is definitely 18 in ACOS, she thinks so herself - "She might be just eighteen and well short of a true Amyrlin’s grandeur, but she was no fool.".

 

I think Rand was born late in 978 NE - it was winter for sure since there was snow around Tar Valon, and the spring was just starting when Moiraine and Lan met in the Borderlands about 4 months later. If Rand is born in December of 978, and Egwene in February of 981, everything works.

 

More on topic - I think Elayne's views on morality are much more utilitarian (she was willing to go along with Nyaeve's idea to keep Moggy alive and get all the info they can from her even though she deserved execution ASAP by all Randland laws), and Galad completely rejects this approach (for example he thought getting one Darkfriend (Perrin) executed was worth a battle in which thousands Whitecloacks would've likely died), and that's one of the reasons she didn't like him and complained about his views.

[Alric]

I think Rand was born late in 978 NE - it was winter for sure since there was snow around Tar Valon, and the spring was just starting when Moiraine and Lan met in the Borderlands about 4 months later. If Rand is born in December of 978, and Egwene in February of 981, everything works.

Aha. I was convinced that it was spring at the time, but I can't remember a specific mention so you are probably right. That would certainly clear it up and yep it makes sense. If Elayne is that close to Egwene then she would be 17 when she met Rand for the first time.

[Yamahako]

But Elayne being 17 when she meets Rand seems off - since she was waiting to go to the tower when she was old enough - which would have been when she was 16 - since after 18 they typically don't take Novices anymore. She did leave soon after - so maybe she was 16, but 17 seems a bit old. Is it explicitly stated that they are the same age (Egwene and Elayne)?

[David Selig]

We have these two quotes, which are pretty clear:

 

ACOS, Ch. 23

 

“The true Amyrlin Seat, Egwene al’Vere, raised us to the shawl in Salidar. She’s no older than Elayne; you must have heard.”

 

LoC, Ch.48

 

“Elayne may be eighteen, but she is Aes Sedai as well, and Green Ajah. Do you think Merilille or Vandene would let us wear these rings as a joke? A good many things have changed, Tylin. The Amyrlin Seat, Egwene al’Vere, is no older than Elayne.”

 

The meeting with Rand is in the spring of 998 NE, Elayne might've still been 16 back then.

[trakand_01]

I always assumed that she saw Galad as so totally different to herself and Gawyn that she didnt want to be associated with him in that way. Remember at school when you didnt want to admit being related to an embarrassing sibling?

 

I also think that perhaps it is somewhat a case of he is so righteous, everyone loves him, Morgase thinks he's a great example, and the only way a (teenage) Elayne can put him in his place is to point out that he's not, actually, her brother or Morgase's son.

 

I think it's a reasonably normal thing for step-siblings to sometimes dispute their relationship and not want to be connected. Taringail, as already stated, wasnt a model father and Galad is his son by another woman. Perhaps there's a female feeling of protectiveness towards Morgase (even though she came after Tigraine).

[supersprode]

I'm in the midst of my reread of The Dragon Reborn and I see that I am no better at understanding Elayne's problem with Galad or her insistance on stating that he is not her brother. I know, I know, he always does what is right, how awful, lmao. I just find her anger at him rather over the top, especially since he saved her brothers life at one point, which she mentions in her conversation with Eugene in the chapter I am on at the moment. What am I missing? How much older is he than them. I just can't understand why she seems so bitter about him. It is something that I have always found rather annoying about her character.

 

Ok clearly you've never had a bossy meddling older brother. It IS annoying. Galad constantly nags her into doing what he thinks she should do, and because he has no authority to force her to do what he wants, goes to mother and tattles on her constantly. Then they grow up and he does the same thing, only whitecloaks are the mother. Well, similar anyway. Anyway, it's constant nagging. Constant trying to impose his will on her. And by just another dude that she doesn't see as his brother, takes it to someone elses authority to force her to do what he wants. It would annoy the bejebus out of anyone.

[MatTuon]

I'm in the midst of my reread of The Dragon

 

Ok clearly you've never had a bossy meddling older brother. It IS annoying. Galad constantly nags her into doing what he thinks she should do, and because he has no authority to force her to do what he wants, goes to mother and tattles on her constantly. Then they grow up and he does the same thing, only whitecloaks are the mother. Well, similar anyway. Anyway, it's constant nagging. Constant trying to impose his will on her. And by just another dude that she doesn't see as his brother, takes it to someone elses authority to force her to do what he wants. It would annoy the bejebus out of anyone.

I have no problem with her finding him annoying, lol. Its the level of disgust that she seems to give off and the constant insistence that he is not her brother. To me, he would have needed to do something much worse than simply tattling on her to reach that level of hate for her half brother, who saved her brothers life and obviously cares for her as a sister. Mat has POV in either book 3 or 4 regarding his annoying sisters and how they tattled on him, etc but how worried he is for their safety, you can feel the love that he has for them even though they are annoying and I never get that from Elayne, which I find odd since she has never really given any reason for her not to feel any brotherly love for him at all even though he is irritating, jmho.