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Was Artur Hawkwing black?


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And what about the "murderer now sat openly on the Seanchan throne."

Do all Seanchan rulers have to be descended from Hawkwing?

Is that murderer Demandred?

Is he also black?

Will it be his "hand like onyx", "black hand" grasping the hilt of Callandor.

Does anyone have any idea?

 

Is Berelain also descended from Hawkwing?

Is she black?

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I don't think Artur Hawkwing is black. Remember, you can be raised to the Blood, so technically you can be a member of the Blood even without direct lineage to Hawkwing. And even if Tuon can claim to be a direct descendent, she's how many generations away from him? If Hawkwing had light skin, Tuon easily could have inherited her coloring from her mother, her father, her grandparents, etc. There seems to be a lot of diversity in Seanchan culture in terms of physical appearances. We've seen Seanchan with dark hair, light hair, dark eyes, light eyes, dark skin, light skin, etc. I'd probably wager that her dark complexion comes from Seanchan natives. It wouldn't matter to me one way or the other if Hawkwing was black, but not many people on Randland proper seem to have very dark skin. You have Domani who are usually described as coppery skinned, and there are a lot of darker skinned Tairens, usually described as being olive-skinned. I think some Altarans might have darker skin too, more akin to the Tairens. The darkest skinned group of people we know about are the Sea Folk, which I always picture as being black, even though they have straight hair. Most of the races in WoT are a mix of different cultures so it's hard to say, I guess. For instance, Saldaeans have tilted eyes which most people associate with Asian cultures, yet some of them have light eyes or hair (like Sheriam). And the hatchet-like noses as well.

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Juilin Sandar the thief catcher is Black. I can't remember but I think others from tear are too. Their culture is Spanish influenced though for the high lords but Chinese for the peasants

 

I can not recalll Sandar ever being described as black. Dark, yes, but that is quite different.

 

As for other Tairens, look at Siuan. Definitly not described as dark.

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I can not recalll Sandar ever being described as black. Dark, yes, but that is quite different.

Yep, it is stated several times that both light and dark Tairens. Juilin is described as darker from my memory (but I can't find the exact quote), but judging from how the Sea Folk are typically described, he doesn't appear to be as dark as them. He has "short-cut black hair" and "quick, dark eyes" (DR ch 49).

 

As for other Tairens, look at Siuan. Definitly not described as dark.

Siuan is fair skinned, with blue eyes, but dark hair. RJ typically goes out of his way to point out her eyes, describing them as sharp/clear/cold/piercing (I love the search function). Maybe to point out the differences compared to the Two Rivers folk (and Moiraine) who all have "dark" eyes.

 

 

I don't think Artur Hawkwing is black. Remember, you can be raised to the Blood, so technically you can be a member of the Blood even without direct lineage to Hawkwing.

If I remember correctly from the BWB, there is quite an amount of "raising" going on. Add 1000 years to that, and the term "Blood" becomes quite meaningless (even more washed out than modern royalty, which is a joke to begin with).

 

I think some Altarans might have darker skin too, more akin to the Tairens.

Yep, it is pointed out in NS I think. There is one with blonde hair and a darker one. I think Tarna is one of them. I can't find the quote right now.

 

Is Berelain also descended from Hawkwing?

I read this just a couple of days ago, but I can't remember where.... After the War one of her ancestors lay claim to being the grandson of Hawkwing. It was stated that few believed the claim to be justified.

 

There seems to be a lot of diversity in Seanchan culture in terms of physical appearances. We've seen Seanchan with dark hair, light hair, dark eyes, light eyes, dark skin, light skin, etc.

Yep, but there isn't necessarily more diversity than in Randland. It is just that we may get that impression from the fact that their lands are united under one ruler and one culture.

 

Actually, I'm quite surprised that given the AoL with easy means of transportation, the Breaking, the collapse of the AB nations, and then the collapse of the nations after the Trolloc Wars, and then the unification under Hawkwing, and _then_ the collapse of his empire.... that there aren't _more_ diversity in Randland. It is quite surprising that you can still spot Domani, Saldaeans, Cairhienin etc.

Edited by Alric
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I read this just a couple of days ago, but I can't remember where.... After the War one of her ancestors lay claim to being the grandson of Hawkwing. It was stated that few believed the claim to be justified.

 

Indeeed Tyrn sur Paendrag Mashera was proclaimed dead with his mother in FY994. There was no investigation and then in FY1004 the ruling council of Mayene produced a young man they claimed to have hidden and kept safe. Somewhat telling is he only proclaimed independence for Mayene and didn't attempt to retake his empire. The claim isn't taken seriously outside of Mayene.

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Well, if you want to consider what we know about Geneology as of 2012, and also factor in Dominant and Recessive and a couple of little things known as ''Y'' Chromosones and your trusty 'X' Chromosone...you would have to say that there is no way A.H. could be. Even if he were Tuon's FATHER and she was black (which she is) he could still be not black. The Dominant X Chromose CAN be recessive in Males (contrary to popular belief). Sorry, didn't mean to go all 'Professor' and teach a class in Science but...there you have it ;-)

 

 

Fish

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I am very likely wrong. I always thought he wasn't the first time I read WoT. It was only on my most recent reread that I noticed that and thought he was Black

As for the Tairens. I was just assuming based on that

 

No, I think you're on the right track. Finished this year's re-read of Crown of Swords a few days ago and am early on in Path of Daggers. There is a comparison between complexions, I think an Elayne POV IIRC, where she muses about Sea Folk having "black" skin like Juilin's and many Tairens.

 

Besides in this PC world, how many ways can you describe "black" skin? Deeply tanned? Dark?

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I am very likely wrong. I always thought he wasn't the first time I read WoT. It was only on my most recent reread that I noticed that and thought he was Black

As for the Tairens. I was just assuming based on that

 

No, I think you're on the right track. Finished this year's re-read of Crown of Swords a few days ago and am early on in Path of Daggers. There is a comparison between complexions, I think an Elayne POV IIRC, where she muses about Sea Folk having "black" skin like Juilin's and many Tairens.

 

Besides in this PC world, how many ways can you describe "black" skin? Deeply tanned? Dark?

 

Well, shouldn't be too difficult for you to dig up that quote then. Not gonna hold my breath though...

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In TDR, Juilin's complexion is compared to aged wood, while Joline's Tairen Warder is curly-haired and "nearly as dark as good soil." So I would say both are black. But there are also Tairens (like Siuan) who are described as fair-skinned and blue-eyed.

 

A lean fellow [Juilin] in his middle years who looked as if he had been carved from aged wood. [...] His short-cut black hair lay flat on his head, and his quick, dark eyes seemed to note and record every detail of the room. And of everyone in it.

Furen was a Tairen, nearly as dark as good soil, with gray streaking his curly black hair.
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Other descriptions of Juilin:

 

The other was a lean handsome Tairen in his middle years, a hard dark man wearing a flat conical straw hat and one of those commoner’s coats that fit snugly to the waist, then flared like a short skirt.
Juilin Sandar was there beside him, the lean fellow looking carved from dark wood, leaning on his thumb-thick bamboo staff.
The Tairen thief-catcher leaped back with a muffled oath, his swarthy face turning gray until he realized who had almost run him over.
Edited by sleepinghour
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Aged wood does not really say anything, since it has a range nearly as wide as 'dark'.

I agree that "dark" has a wide range and doesn't necessarily mean black—Narishma for instance was described as having a pale face in LoC, but has dark hair and eyes and was at one point called "darkly beautiful." But it's clear from other descriptions of Juilin ("carved from dark wood") that he's very dark-skinned, most likely black.

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Aged wood does not really say anything, since it has a range nearly as wide as 'dark'.

I agree that "dark" has a wide range and doesn't necessarily mean black—Narishma for instance was described as having a pale face in LoC, but has dark hair and eyes and was at one point called "darkly beautiful." But it's clear from other descriptions of Juilin ("carved from dark wood") that he's very dark-skinned, most likely black.

 

"Dark wood" could just as well mean the complexion of an Indian, or an arab from the Persian Gulf.

 

Lets look at how some people we know are black are described. Semirhage is 'dark as charcoal'. Tuon is 'nearly as dark as her black dress'. Now those are descripions that leave no room for interpretations.

 

But at the end of the day, is it important? Not the slightest.

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Aged wood does not really say anything, since it has a range nearly as wide as 'dark'.

I agree that "dark" has a wide range and doesn't necessarily mean black—Narishma for instance was described as having a pale face in LoC, but has dark hair and eyes and was at one point called "darkly beautiful." But it's clear from other descriptions of Juilin ("carved from dark wood") that he's very dark-skinned, most likely black.

 

"Dark wood" could just as well mean the complexion of an Indian, or an arab from the Persian Gulf.

 

Lets look at how some people we know are black are described. Semirhage is 'dark as charcoal'. Tuon is 'nearly as dark as her black dress'. Now those are descripions that leave no room for interpretations.

 

But at the end of the day, is it important? Not the slightest.

 

No it's not, but I believe you are correct. The descriptions of Semi and Tuon are obviously meant to convey a darker shade than what is used for Julien.

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"Dark wood" could just as well mean the complexion of an Indian, or an arab from the Persian Gulf.

 

Lets look at how some people we know are black are described. Semirhage is 'dark as charcoal'. Tuon is 'nearly as dark as her black dress'. Now those are descripions that leave no room for interpretations.

 

But at the end of the day, is it important? Not the slightest.

Well, no, but it was the topic at hand, and for some reason you seemed very dismissive of the possibility that Juilin is black:

 

Well, shouldn't be too difficult for you to dig up that quote then. Not gonna hold my breath though...

Going by the descriptions of Juilin and other Tairens, I think there's at least a strong likelihood that he is black. And black people certainly come in many shades other than "charcoal"—Naomi Campbell is not the same shade as Grace Jones, but both are black. So what Tuon or Semirhage looks like is irrelevant.

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Well, shouldn't be too difficult for you to dig up that quote then. Not gonna hold my breath though...

Going by the descriptions of Juilin and other Tairens, I think there's at least a strong likelihood that he is black. And black people certainly come in many shades other than "charcoal"—Naomi Campbell is not the same shade as Grace Jones, but both are black. So what Tuon or Semirhage looks like is irrelevant.

 

The obvious point being that in a book "charcoal" and "black dress" would be used to describe someone much darker than "dark wood". That combined with RJ saying he took his influence for Tear from Spain. We have conquistador like military outfits, dress similar to Renaissance Spain, and names like Rosana, Saniago, Estanda make it pretty obvious what he was going for.

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Well, if you want to consider what we know about Geneology as of 2012, and also factor in Dominant and Recessive and a couple of little things known as ''Y'' Chromosones and your trusty 'X' Chromosone...you would have to say that there is no way A.H. could be. Even if he were Tuon's FATHER and she was black (which she is) he could still be not black. The Dominant X Chromose CAN be recessive in Males (contrary to popular belief). Sorry, didn't mean to go all 'Professor' and teach a class in Science but...there you have it ;-)

 

 

Fish

 

Skin colour is determined by multiple genes. Some are possibly on the Y/X chromosomes but the majority of the known ones are not.

However you are correct when you say that a black father/mother can have a non-black child and vice versa.

The X chromosome cannot be recessive as there is no dominate gene on the Y chromosome, recessive genes on the X chromosome in the male can "become dominant" due to there being no gene that takes presidence (e.g. haemophilia is a recessive gene on the X chromosome, a male with this gene would have haemophilia where as a female with only 1 of the recessive genes is known as a carrier).

 

Also, you cannot say that he CANNOT be black or not based on his child. You can say unlikely or likely but not yes or no. Not in the case of skin colour at least.

Edited by Raken
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