3 Questions That Puzzle Me Something Fierce!

[The Fisher King]

1 In TOM, in 'A Storm of The Light', Rands awesome obliteration of the massive Trolloc army is seen through RODEL'S eyes...how did HE know what 'Deathgates' and 'Blossoms of Fire' are??

 

2 In Book 13, TOM, the use of 'Dreamspikes' was very cool and matrixy, and seemed very Sandersonesque, but also seemed a bit sudden and Deus Ex Machina...so, my question is: is the term 'Dreamspike' even MENTIONED even once anywhere in the previous twelve novels?

 

3 In Book 3, 'The Dragon is Reborn', Rand rather cavalierly lops the head off a woman - a WOMAN! - and we never hear another word about it. Seems so contradictory to his series-long freaking out over the mere idea of even harming a woman. What's the deal with this?

 

 

Fish

[MasterAblar]

1 In TOM, in 'A Storm of The Light', Rands awesome obliteration of the massive Trolloc army is seen through RODEL'S eyes...how did HE know what 'Deathgates' and 'Blossoms of Fire' are??

 

2 In Book 13, TOM, the use of 'Dreamspikes' was very cool and matrixy, and seemed very Sandersonesque, but also seemed a bit sudden and Deus Ex Machina...so, my question is: is the term 'Dreamspike' even MENTIONED even once anywhere in the previous twelve novels?

 

3 In Book 3, 'The Dragon is Reborn', Rand rather cavalierly lops the head off a woman - a WOMAN! - and we never hear another word about it. Seems so contradictory to his series-long freaking out over the mere idea of even harming a woman. What's the deal with this?

 

 

Fish

 

1) I don't think he mentions Blossoms of Fire. As for the Deathgates it's possible the Ashaman who were with Ituralde were taught the weave by Rand or one of the Ashaman who were with him in Tear. Ituralde may have learned it from them.

 

2) No, I don't think it was.

 

3) It's a little odd, yeah, but then Rand seems to be utterly uncaring about anything but getting to Tear and Callandor in that book. Also, his obsession with not harming women may have been the result of him setting that as his limit. In other words it was the line he refused to cross in order to keep some shred of humanity, so that he would not simply see everyone as tools to win the Last Battle. Since he had not yet truly declared himself the DR at this point, it's possible he was less obsessed about it. What I find strange is that in tGS, right before balefiring Graendal's palace he admits to Nyneave and Min that he actually has killed a woman before, but only mention Liah, the Maiden he balefired in Shadar Logoth in order to save her from Mashadar. Then again it's possible that the darkfriend merchant didn't matter as much to him, because, even if he does not consciously realise it as the reason he doesn't care, that was before he set down his limit.

[Majsju]

1 In TOM, in 'A Storm of The Light', Rands awesome obliteration of the massive Trolloc army is seen through RODEL'S eyes...how did HE know what 'Deathgates' and 'Blossoms of Fire' are??

 

Well, Rodel has been fighting for weeks with Asha'man on his side, so it is possible they have used those weaves and mentioned the names to Rodel. Or, Brandon is just taking some liberties in order to help us see what is going on.

 

2 In Book 13, TOM, the use of 'Dreamspikes' was very cool and matrixy, and seemed very Sandersonesque, but also seemed a bit sudden and Deus Ex Machina...so, my question is: is the term 'Dreamspike' even MENTIONED even once anywhere in the previous twelve novels?

 

No, they have never been mentioned. And expect more things in AMOL that have never been mentioned before. Though it can be said that RJ hinted at them, by saying there are ways to interfere with gateways. Thing is, this is very much in line with how RJ has been writing all along. He foreshadows a lot, and then out of nowhere he throws something completely new onto the board. Like Deathgates in KOD, from out of nowhere we see a new weave, and learn that shadowspawn can't Travel.

 

3 In Book 3, 'The Dragon is Reborn', Rand rather cavalierly lops the head off a woman - a WOMAN! - and we never hear another word about it. Seems so contradictory to his series-long freaking out over the mere idea of even harming a woman. What's the deal with this?

 

 

 

 

Rand was more or less out of his mind the entire journey to Tear, and often could not tell reality from dreams/illusions.

[MasterAblar]

Rand was more or less out of his mind the entire journey to Tear, and often could not tell reality from dreams/illusions.

 

Yeah, I think that is pretty much the best answer possible. Rand is just strange (probably justified though) in tDR.

[andrewks]

I would have to do some reading, but there is a place in the books where he laments lopping the DF's head off. At least I'm pretty sure. Using deathgates and blossoms of fire sounds more like Sanderson is just using terms that we would know instead of dragging it out by explaining what they are. And dreamspikes were totally new to the series, but there have always been dozens of hints of what was possible in the AoL.

[Suttree]

Rand was more or less out of his mind the entire journey to Tear, and often could not tell reality from dreams/illusions.

 

Yeah, I think that is pretty much the best answer possible. Rand is just strange (probably justified though) in tDR.

 

Yeah we have a quote on this that says something similar...

The Path of Daggers book tour 29 October 1998, Seattle - Kevin Bartlett reporting

 

 

In The Dragon Reborn, when Rand encountered the lady merchant and her soldiers and slaughtered the whole bunch, did he have a good reason for doing so? Were they all really Darkfriends? Was that eleventh man really a Grey Man, or did Rand just count wrong? He said that it's not supposed to be clear to the reader exactly what is going on. What is supposed to be clear is that there was definitely a Grey Man in the party. But whether or not Rand knew that before he lopped off their heads, we're not supposed to know. It's supposed to be unclear whether Rand is just very observant, or whether he's on the brink of madness.

[OptimusPrime]

Rand was more or less out of his mind the entire journey to Tear, and often could not tell reality from dreams/illusions.

 

Yeah, I think that is pretty much the best answer possible. Rand is just strange (probably justified though) in tDR.

 

Yeah we have a quote on this that says something similar...

The Path of Daggers book tour 29 October 1998, Seattle - Kevin Bartlett reporting

 

 

In The Dragon Reborn, when Rand encountered the lady merchant and her soldiers and slaughtered the whole bunch, did he have a good reason for doing so? Were they all really Darkfriends? Was that eleventh man really a Grey Man, or did Rand just count wrong? He said that it's not supposed to be clear to the reader exactly what is going on. What is supposed to be clear is that there was definitely a Grey Man in the party. But whether or not Rand knew that before he lopped off their heads, we're not supposed to know. It's supposed to be unclear whether Rand is just very observant, or whether he's on the brink of madness.

 

My memory is hazy, havent read TDR in yonks...

 

But I seem to remember Perrin having a Wolfdream and seeing Rand encounter those people. I cant remember if Perrin saw him KILL them though, I dont think he did. But after the whole incedent I was convinced that Rand had seen it in the dream as well, and that he noticed the bodycount difference, and figured out there was a Greyman. The mad side of it was that he got their bodies to bow and scrape after he killed them.

 

So I would say he was both very observant AND on the brink of madness. Unless Im getting mixed up.

 

Question that might be important depending on the answer-can channelers sense Shadowspawn, or is it just a Warder bond thing?

[bsmnt23]

 

Question that might be important depending on the answer-can channelers sense Shadowspawn, or is it just a Warder bond thing?

 

Think that RJ was showing how much further Rand has gone down the road to becoming an actual bladmaster. He didnt actualy notice the grey man untill he was counting the bodies. The flame and the void, or the emptyness or whatever sort of battle meditation blademasters put themselves into sounds like a sort of zen thing, to "see without seeing". The grey man arent actualy invisible, I think they are granted sort of aura that discourages people from noticeing them counciously, but if Rand was reacting without thought in his battle medition then it were possible for him to actualy kill the unseen man without even knowing that he saw him.

 

Plus, he didnt have that first warder bond yet.

[SylvanFox]

I would have to do some reading, but there is a place in the books where he laments lopping the DF's head off. At least I'm pretty sure. Using deathgates and blossoms of fire sounds more like Sanderson is just using terms that we would know instead of dragging it out by explaining what they are. And dreamspikes were totally new to the series, but there have always been dozens of hints of what was possible in the AoL.

 

She was on his list as a "nameless Darkfriend."

[Luckers]

1) The presumption is probably that he learnt from a Asha'man, but the reality is likely simply that Brandon has non-channelers use the precise terminology of channeling more often than RJ. it's a quirk.

[Morsker]

3 In Book 3, 'The Dragon is Reborn', Rand rather cavalierly lops the head off a woman - a WOMAN! - and we never hear another word about it. Seems so contradictory to his series-long freaking out over the mere idea of even harming a woman. What's the deal with this?

That happened before Rand started freaking out over dead women, and is part of the cause of his irrational behavior later. It was traumatic. At the moment he killed her, he was fighting for his life, and she was obviously a darkfriend, and it didn't seem like much. But on reflection it really bothered him. Taint-induced madness and Ilyena's death probably also contributed to his later attitudes. His attitude towards Lanfear really was insane.

[Luckers]

BTW the closest reference to a dreamspike pre-TofM is in the quote below. My guess is that Brandon developed the specifics himself.

 

INTERVIEW: Jul 19th, 2005

TOR Questions of the Week Part III

WEEK 14 QUESTION

Military strategy in the War of Power must have been odd, indeed. How do the concepts of capturing and holding territory even make sense in a world where forces can Travel?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

Good question, though not all of the forces involved could use gateways. (Rafo! Rafo!) Think of the ability to Travel in terms of moving troops via aircraft, and you will begin to get the picture. Even with the largest possible circles, there are limits to the size of gateways and thus limits to the front along which you can move troops out through it, the numbers you can commit simultaneously. Of course, you can use multiple gateways, but each is still only so large and can admit only so many soldiers at a time.

 

So-called front lines were very fluid, but you couldn't fling your forces in anywhere without regard to what would be surrounding them or how you were going to re-supply, reinforce or withdraw them. Although no one has shown it so far in the books, there are ways to interfere with the making of a gateway—and ways to defend against interference—so the battle would take place on many levels. Yes, any area you hold can be attacked by your enemy, and you can attack any area that he holds. (Part of the result was great destruction and a great fall-off in the ability to produce high tech items. By the time the Bore was sealed, soldiers were already much, much more likely to ride horses and carry swords than to ride armored vehicles or aircraft and carry shocklances, which had all become very rare.) But holding an area is not impossible so long as you can successfully disrupt your opponent's attempts to make gateways into it. Even if he manages to get those first soldiers in, if you can disrupt his ability to reinforce, re-supply or withdraw, it becomes another Dien Bien Phu for him. Of course, if you fail, then it becomes Gettysburg or Waterloo, a bloody fight that will be decisive for somebody. At least until the next "decisive" battle is fought. Remember, that designation is always given after the fact, by historians.

[Goldstar]

For the third question, she's mentioned periodically on the list as a nameless darkfriend he met in the woods of... I think he said Altara? Can't remember where he was. I believe it's mentioned in LoC.

[Suttree]

That happened before Rand started freaking out over dead women, and is part of the cause of his irrational behavior later. It was traumatic. At the moment he killed her, he was fighting for his life, and she was obviously a darkfriend, and it didn't seem like much.

 

When you say fighting for his life do you mean he had been hunted? Because when he kills the woman there was zero provocation and no way tot tell she was a DF unless he noticed the gray man.

 

LoC Ch. 36

"You have chosen a good campsite, young man," she said. "I have often used it on my way to Remen. There is a small spring nearby. I trust you have no objection to my sharing it?" Her guards were already dismounting, hitching at their sword belts and loosening saddle girths.

"None," Rand told her. Careful. Two steps brought him close enough, and he leaped into the air, spinning – Thistledown Floats on the Whirlwind – heron-mark blade carved from fire coming into his hands to take her head off before surprise could even form on her face. She was the most dangerous.

He alighted as the woman's head rolled from the crupper of her horse. The guards yelled and clawed for their swords, screamed as they realized his blade burned.

[Ala Rubra]

I wonder if this case was him recognizing that woman as a darkfriend like he does to others in TofM?

[Randommer]

Question that might be important depending on the answer-can channelers sense Shadowspawn, or is it just a Warder bond thing?

Yeah channelers can sense shadowspawn, but I think grey men might be immune to that. They were designed to kill channelers after all, and I can't remember Rand ever sensing them like he did other shadowspawn.

[Majsju]

Question that might be important depending on the answer-can channelers sense Shadowspawn, or is it just a Warder bond thing?

Yeah channelers can sense shadowspawn, but I think grey men might be immune to that. They were designed to kill channelers after all, and I can't remember Rand ever sensing them like he did other shadowspawn.

 

LOC, chapter 28. Rand gets a sense of filth when the grey man enters the room, but it takes him a great deal of effort to figure out why.

[rand4747]

greymen aren't shadowspawn, they are people who gave their soul to the darkone and were transformed

[MasterAblar]

I don't think Greymen were designed to kill channellers. That's Gholam. Greymen are just general assasins.

[Majsju]

I don't think Greymen were designed to kill channellers. That's Gholam. Greymen are just general assasins.

 

Correct.

 

And as for whether or not grey men are shadowspawn, that is a matter of interpretation. And my guess is that most Randlanders (of those who know what grey men are) does consider them shadowspawn.

[The Fisher King]

Wow! A lot of great points I had never thought about - thanks everybody!

 

Master Ablar 2 ... Possible, for sure. Maybe he DID learn from the Ash.

 

Maj 3 ... Good point on 'Deathgates' making their debut in KOD. For some reason, that just felt so much more...natural...to me, though.

 

Drewcifer 5 ... Very possibly an authorial choice by Mr Sanderson.

 

Suttree 6 ... Thanks!

 

Drekka 7 ... What if its a Ta'veren thing? Perrin has 'Seen' shadowspawn where others haven't before. Has Mat, ever?

 

Lurk 8 ... Good point.

 

Sylvan Fox 9 ... I remember that now!

 

Luckers 10 ... Yeah. Its a definitie possibility. I just miss RJ's subtelty sometimes. Especially with his POV's. He would be soooo careful what he revealed.

 

Morsker 11 ... Good point!

 

Luckers 12 ... I'd agree with you. DreamSpike not my fave, though. A little too Sandersonish (and I LIKE Brandon) and Matrixy. Just my personal tastes.

 

Goldstar 13 ... I think it was Altara.

 

Suttree 14 ... Great post!!! How I see it exactly. Much of the inspiration for my OP.

 

Ala Rubra 15 ... I don't think so.

 

Randomer 16 ...Again I am wondering: Maybe more of a Ta'veren 'Talent'?

 

Maj 17 ... Really similar to that scene with Perrin. Partly why I wonder if it is linked to being Ta'veren.

 

Rand 18 ... Ahhh, semantics! ;)

 

Master Ablar 19 ... Correct!

 

Maj 20 ... Beat me to it!

 

 

 

Fish

[Suttree]

One question I have is why did Rand consider the woman the most dangerous? Was she a wilder perhaps?

[The Fisher King]

Maybe he thought she was Aes Sedai (Black Ajaj) ?

 

I dont know if I LIKE or DISLIKE how ''different'' TDR feels in comparison to most of the other novels. Most WOT books have a very familiar 'style' or 'feel' to them...so many things in TDR just felt...off...to me.

 

 

Fish

[ShenAnCalhar]

Rodel knowing Deathgates never felt wrong to me. The guy is super-thorough, and you know that he drilled the Asha'man on EXACTLY what they were capable of down to every detail...the way a great captain would.

[Majsju]

One question I have is why did Rand consider the woman the most dangerous? Was she a wilder perhaps?

 

I find that quite unlikely. If Rand had even suspected she might have been able to channel, would he attacked her with a sword? Would he have stood a chance trying to fight a channeler who saw him coming if he had only been using a sword (sure, a flaming sword made with Saidin, but still a sword)?

 

More likely is that she was the only real DF, the one sent for him, and trained to kill people. Whereas the others where just hired muscle.