Sammuel and Taim

[Thor]

My questions is, how did samuael know that Rand trapped the waygate?

[icspots]

Robert, that was my point. We know that Rand booby-trapped the SL waygate, and from the way it's described it sounds like something different.... since he can't have anyone stay in SL to guard the gate. Anyway my point was we don't know that the rest of them are booby-trapped.

 

Thor, Please oh please. Sammael, not Samuael. :P Perhaps Sammael just figured it out after learning of all the Trollocs/fades that died coming out of that waygate. I don't think we're ever told specifically how he learned. He was a military strategist though, so he was probably skilled at figuring things out.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Anyway my point was we don't know that the rest of them are booby-trapped.

 

I know ... my point that I eventually got around to (after a quote that was probably too long and unnecessary I admit) is that the only remotely logical course for Rand to have instructed is here:

 

So, since Rand wants them usable, he probably didn't tell Loial and Karldin ro do anything permanent. For the ones not "under guard", warding them would be the most effective way.

 

The only effective methods of protecting a Waygate are:

 

1) Putting it under constant guard (the Waygate is the ultimate "bottleneck" so, a relatively low number of guards would be sufficient).

 

2) Warding it with inverted wards.

 

3) Permanently locking it so that it requires a Talisman of Growing to re-open.

 

Rand is aware of all those methods, so we don't really have to consider ignorance here. Given those options, he has followed #1 in places where he can (again, in the cities he holds, Caemlyn, Tear, Cairhien). We know he basically ruled out #3 because Elder Haman offered and he said no. If there was ANY gate he would permanently seal it was the one in Shadar Logoth, so if he didn't seal that one permanently, then its unlikely he told Loial and Karldin to do it to any others. That leaves option #2. Rand was in a position to choose an Asha'man powerful enough to make the wards, and to instruct him how to weave and invert them. It is almost beyond belief that he has chosen any other option, in my opinion. Warding is the only option for gates that he cannot assign a guard to, that leaves them usable by his forces, and unusable by Shadowspawn.

[Bob T Dwarf]

OK. Where are you getting all of that?

 

KoD: The Golden Crane:

"Loial, I've sealed the Waygates I know, in Caemlyn and Cairhien, Illian and Tear, and I put a very nasty trap on the one that was cut open near Fal Dara, but I couldn't find the one near Far Madding. Even when I know there's a Waygate actually in a city, I can't find it by myself, and then there are all those cities that don't exist anymore. I need you to find the rest for me, Loial, or Trollocs will be able to flood into every country at once, and no one will know they're coming until they're in the heart of Andor or Cairhien."

 

The only Waygate that Rand has trapped is the one Waygate that cannot be sealed because it has been cut open. What he is asking Loial to do, and what Elder Haman offers to do in Loial's stead is to seal all of the remaining Waygates.

[Thor]

didn't he sen loial off with kaysman (name?) to trap all the gateways already?

[Bob T Dwarf]

As far as I know, the only Waygate that Loial has dealt with personally is the one in what used to be Manetheren. That one he sealed.

 

He and Karldin visited the known stedding ( other than Stedding Shangtai - Loial was afraid he'd be forced to stay if he went there ) and persuaded most of them to place guards on the Waygates that serve each of them. Those are the only guarded Waygates.

 

The Waygates other than those which serve the various stedding are the ones Rand wants sealed. Elder Haman has undertaken to seal all of those.

 

The Waygate near Fal Dara is the only one which has been trapped.

[icspots]

Hmmmm. I need to go back and read the scenes with Elder Haman. I don't remember him agreeing to seal all of the waygates.

 

The waygate at Fal Dara isn't trapped. Moiraine cut it open, and the gate itself has a hole in it. As far as we know the guards that Agelmar posted there at her behest are still guarding it.

[CrazyMike]

still off subject.

 

From what I read, it is apparent that RAND has been trapping the waygates instead of sealing them, using inverted weaves so none of the foresaken can see the weaves,,, he has been setting a ward that causes the Trolics to die after a short time,,, in this way he hopes to reduce the odds a little bit.

[Bob T Dwarf]

For those who didn't read it 5 posts back:

"Loial, I've sealed the Waygates I know, in Caemlyn and Cairhien, Illian and Tear, and I put a very nasty trap on the one that was cut open near Fal Dara...

 

The first Waygate that Rand trapped was the one in Shadar Logoth. Neither that Waygate nor Shadar Logoth exist anymore.

 

The only other Waygate he has trapped is the one near Fal Dara. That, simply because it could not be sealed. He has sealed all others that he has found. He asks Loial to find the remainder and seal them. Elder Haman offers to do that instead, so that Loial can attend the Great Stump and argue for the Ogier joining with Rand to fight TG.

 

"Knife of Dreams" - The Golden Crane:

Elder Haman cleared his throat. "It seems to me that I myself am more accustomed to Outside than almost anyone except the stonemasons. Um. Yes. In fact, I think I am likely to be the best candidate for your task."

[Thor]

When they say seal, I don't think they mean removing both leaves.

 

I think it means putting a trap on them.

 

Just like the one in Fal Dara.

 

If they really meant to seal permanently/kill the gateways, I'm pretty sure that Elder Harnan would have been at least a bit uncomfortable with that, just like Loial was reluctant to kill the one at manetheran.

[Bob T Dwarf]

If "sealed" and "trapped" meant the same thing, Rand wouldn't have differentiated between them in the passage I quoted.

 

He wants all of those Waygates totally unusable by Shadowspawn, not usable but fatal.

 

Neither Loial nor Elder Haman could create such a trap anyway.

[DemandredFO]

Do we know which waygates are usable cuz Rand says the ways may have to be used. I am assuming Rand hasn't touched the one near Tar Valon so I think that is still usable and I have no Idea about Fal Dare but I suppose a Channeler could blast it open, same with Manetheran. But what other are usable? Thanks

[Thor]

The one in Tar Valon is almost definitely trapped already by Aes Sedai.

 

Channelers can't just "blast a waygate open". Even full circles can't damage a waygate.

[Bob T Dwarf]

All of the existing Waygates except the ones in Manetheren, Caemlyn, Cairhien, Tear, and Illian should still be usable - as of KoD.

 

The one in Fal Dara is usable but trapped - probably in the same way the one in Shadar Logoth was.

 

The ones outside most of the stedding are usable but guarded. Loial was not able to persuade every currently populated stedding to guard theirs, and, as mentioned, he didn't go anywhere near stedding Shangtai, so that one is both usable and unguarded.

 

The one in Tar Valon most likely has some kind of Ward on it rather than a Trap. My sense is that none of the current Aes Sedai know enough to construct a Trap that would key only to Shadowspawn.

 

Those in Seanchan hands would certainly be both usable and unguarded, as would those in other areas where Rand has not been. Then there are the ones that used to serve now abandoned stedding, and those that served cities which no longer exist which would also be usable and unguarded.

[chemteach1977]

Cannot remember the reference but waygates can be destroyed. Mentions a circle of 13 AS with a sa'angreal was required. Trying to do so with a smaller circle back-fired horribly. Certainly with male channelers, callandor, and the remaining CK, wiping out the waygates is possible but not the likely plan of the good guys.

[Thor]

No, the one with circle of 13 with sa'angreal blasted the gateway open, but not destroyed it.

[Luckers]

No, the 13 with the sa'angreal succeeded in destroying the gate, later a circle of 8 tried to do the same, and the waygate broke open and they were sucked in and killed.

 

We have no evidence to suggest that the gate in Tar Valon has been warded in any way. If Suine hadn't acted on what she knew (if indeed Moiraine had mentioned her suspicions) by the time Liandrin used the gate in the Great Hunt, then she wouldn't have before she was deposed, and Elaida knows nothing of the threat from the Ways.

[icspots]

.......and Elaida knows nothing of the threat from the Ways.

 

And even if someone told her about it then she'd probably just dismiss it as a "mad" way to attack. I mean only a fool would go through the ways, right? Besides, who would have the gall to attack Tar Valon while she's there. :lol:

[Bob T Dwarf]

Don't forget that the White Tower was built a long time ago and governed by many different Amyrlin's having different views and greater abilities.

 

There seem to be a very great number of long-standing Wards all throughout the place. Exactly what is Warded and how is something none of us know.

[RobertAlexWillis]

There seem to be a very great number of long-standing Wards all throughout the place. Exactly what is Warded and how is something none of us know.

 

Given the way wards are failing all through Tar Valon, it would be surprising if some mysterious ancient ward on the Waygate was still hanging around ...

[Bob T Dwarf]

When the Wards started failing, I seem to recall that they started systematically inspecting them, and reinforcing those that seemed to be in bad shape.

 

IIRC, that specifically included Wards on the Waygate.

 

But, I don't recall which book that is all in, so I can't easily check to see if my memory is correct.

[CrazyMike]

I wonder if the DO is having somedirect, intentional effect on particular wards,,, like he did on the weather...

[RobertAlexWillis]

When the Wards started failing, I seem to recall that they started systematically inspecting them, and reinforcing those that seemed to be in bad shape.

 

IIRC, that specifically included Wards on the Waygate.

 

Actually, the only Wards I remember being mentioned were in and around the Tower itself, and on the walls. That does not preclude the possibility of Wards around the Waygate, of course. My point is, you spoke of previous Amyrlins' abilities and priorities right ... here:

 

Don't forget that the White Tower was built a long time ago and governed by many different Amyrlin's having different views and greater abilities.

 

I'm saying that if the Wardings were established by or under the direction of previous Amyrlins, they may well have not been re-established if Elaida did not know about them, or did not consider them a priority, which by her silence on the subject she evidently does not. Certainly if she believes that Machin Shin is still killing the Shadowspawn who go through the Ways, she is arrogant enough to consider that sufficient defense. Given the hundred thousand Trollocs that descended on Lord Algarin's house recently (information that the Aes Sedai obviously do not have), Machin Shin does not seem to be the inadvertent protection that it once was, making the Tar Valon Waygate a potential liability.

[cloglord]

Getting back to the original topic, I have noticed some strange similarities between Taim and Sammael, but have noticed some other strange coincidences as well. To start, Let's point out some obvious things

 

The well known and often argued Taimandred theory points out numerous and convincing similarities between Taim and Demandred. However, straight from the mouth of RJ himself comes the refutation of this theory. Demandred has not masquareded as anyone. We do know he likes to use proxies however, maybe Taim is under Demandred's control?

 

Also one might point out that someone had to have been behind Taim's escape to begin with. SInce it involved escaping from at least 12 Aes Sedai it seems likely to have been a BA plot that released him, which would suggest Messanna or Ishmael. Since, all of the other forsaken are recently released and seem busy setting themselves up as rulers, only Ishy would have that sort of control over the BA at this point. Could Taim be a puppet if Ishmael/Moridin? The Red and Black floor tiles in Taim's BT palace would seem indicative, wouldn't they?

 

Of course the reader with a keen eye for detail would realize that the guantleted hand grasping lightning bolts found at Taim's palace is the same sigil that Sammael used during his forsaken meetings in TAR. Since RJ has said that Sammael is toast we can be pretty sure that Taim isn't Sammael in disguise, since Taim's description does not match the description of toast in the slightest. But maybe Sammy was pulling Taim's strings for a while?

 

But since I am in the mood for wild conjecture lets ponder this. What if Taim is playing Demandred/Moridin/and Sammael (until his death) off of each other? We have seen other influential darkfriends, namely Alviarin, who have been approached by numerous forsaken, and been forced to bend to the will of one and then later to another. What if Ishy broke Taim free, then died. Then Demandred snatched Taim up, only to have Sammael find out about him, and try to sneak him out from under Demandred. What would Taim have done, faced with a choice between two masters? He probably would have tried to do the will of both as best he could, what would he do when Ishy showed back up as Moridin? He would probably becrapping himself hoping that one of the three didn't tell him to do something that one of the others had told him not to. WHat do you think Taim would do, if he caught wind from Moridin that Sammael was presumed dead, and Taim realized that when Sammael stopped showing up for his weekly visits that there was a power vaccuum that he could fill? What if Taim is the new fake Sammael, instead of the other way around?

[CrazyMike]

1st I would like to say that:

(1) Machin Shin and the Ways and 100,000 Trollics:

since the Trolics and Mydrayyl were sent by one of the Forsaken the use of the WAYs and the Danger of Machin Shin eating the Trollics before they could do their dirty work at the farm is actually MOOT, meaning of no consequence, since a Forsaken would have sent them by use of a GATE, that being more certain and faster... so that is no indication of whether or not Machin Shin is still active and strong ;;; also the WAYs are very very very big and not restricted to just the roads and path ways built there

 

(2) Taim

Taim does not appear to me to be a cowed and shaken individual who is walking on egg shells because he is the rope in a tug of war between Forsaken, either one of which may decide to burn him down on a whim,,, and remembering that just because the Forsaken are from the time of Legends and 3000 years old does not make them omnipotent gods, but instead, they are just bad people who are very experienced and skilled at using the source,,, so TAIM could probibly burn them down just as easily as they could burn him ,,, so Taim could rise to power among the Forsaken if the "DO" allows him to,,, however

 

(3) I am still not embracing the TAIM is a DF or Forsaken thing yet...