Goodkind

[b3arz3rg3r]

Suspension of disbelief is kinda necessary for fantasy. Without it the entire genre doesn't work. Nothing magical, divine, demonic or otherworldly can be accepted without suspension of disbelief. What I think you mean is that Goodkind is violating rationality, realism and plausibility of the world he created.

[Dreggs Morlock]

Suspension of disbelief is kinda necessary for fantasy. Without it the entire genre doesn't work. Nothing magical, divine, demonic or otherworldly can be accepted without suspension of disbelief. What I think you mean is that Goodkind is violating rationality, realism and plausibility of the world he created.

My meaning was clear to you, I think, but your assertion that others would miss it is probably as likely as the sun rising tomorrow.

 

Point taken, and very well said.

[master]

While I definately prefer jordan to goodkind jordan isnt the best writer in the world either. I'm not saying that wot is a bad series but the characters are a bit stereotyped. Take mat for example. He was given a letter and was told it was important. ?Yet he did the complete opposite, Following the stereotype in the books that men are stubborn for the sake of it.

 

 

You realise your one example was written by Brandon, not Jordan?

 

I mean don't get me wrong, I've no problem criticizing RJ--the Nynaeve/Elayne circus arc was very poorly managed...

 

But yeah....

 

Sorry I was working on the assumption that Sanderson was working off of detailed notes and he was just writing out the dialogue and descriptions. I didn't think he'd be doing such a major plotpoint.

 

 

The harder we pushed Jordan for explainations, the more we realized he HAD thought everything through. He was a man who expected his audience to be as clever as he was in his creation

 

Even if it was 90% padding, I do agree that wot has been put together a lot better than goodkind. The sword of truth seemed to be a bit of a mess. at least until what I read up to.

[Agitel]

Goodkind has his share of problems. Super deux ex machina. Mary Sue characters. Breaks his own rules numerous times (in a very inconsistent manner). Insults fans when they ask why. Weak characterization and unquestioning idolization of characters. But if there's one thing that bother's me most about The Sword of Truth it's the repetition that happens in the later books. He beats the horse dead, then keeps beating it until there's nothing left but a bloody pulp, then continues to beat it more. I'm not talking about recap from the previous books; every time a specific point comes up in a novel he'll resummarize what he wrote before. I don't feel like reading the same two page sermon on Objectivism five times in a novel (that's only a slight exaggeration) .

[SylvanFox]

I liked the Sword of Truth. I really did. I'm not sure I'd ever read the whole series again... But there were a few books from that series that were really fun. I do think that WoT makes SoT look like a kid's story with rapists in it, but I didn't hate SoT.

 

As for stealing.... I dunno. I noticed the similarities, but I will tell you now that I have NEVER picked up a book that didn't remind me of another book that I had already read. The Power/Han/whatever being divided by gender seemed the most glaring similarity to me, but most of the other stuff is just really common in fantasies to begin with. I read SoT before I read WoT (else I'd probably never have read SoT) and the first thing I thought of when the Sisters of the Light or whatever turned up was the Bene Gesserits of Dune. I couldn't say for sure as to whether it was stolen from WoT. Maybe they both stole it from Dune. Or maybe TG stole it from RJ. I don't know.

 

I do know.... RJ's story is hella better.

[LeeM.Erickson]

I liked the Sword of Truth. I really did. I'm not sure I'd ever read the whole series again... But there were a few books from that series that were really fun. I do think that WoT makes SoT look like a kid's story with rapists in it, but I didn't hate SoT.

 

Looks like someone isn't old enough to read Sword of Truth.

[andrewks]

Got to at least give props to the part in WFR where Kahlan has that guy eat his own balls. Even GRRM would shake his head in defeat at that amount of violence.

[Vinny]

I liked the Sword of Truth. I really did. I'm not sure I'd ever read the whole series again... But there were a few books from that series that were really fun. I do think that WoT makes SoT look like a kid's story with rapists in it, but I didn't hate SoT.

 

Looks like someone isn't old enough to read Sword of Truth.

 

Sounds like he has taste to me.

How old do you need to be to "appreciate" Goodkind's tone-deaf puerile drivel? 12? 13?

 

I just reread EOTW after 20 years, never having read another Jordan novel after it. I don't even like the "fantasy" genre anymore, but EOTW blew me away. It has faults but I also give it high marks across the board. TWFR made me gag, and weep for the death of the English language. It still does. Maybe I'm not old enough to "get" it...

[Eht Slat Meit]

Got to at least give props to the part in WFR where Kahlan has that guy eat his own balls. Even GRRM would shake his head in defeat at that amount of violence.

 

I don't know about that, GRRM gets pretty brutal. Most recent example being that little three-way love fest with Reek, "Arya Stark" and that freak I can't remember the name of. Real difference being that GRRM writes well enough that he can indulge in that kind of thing without having it come across as a complete shocker that is totally out of synch with his supposedly heroic characters. With a few short-lived exceptions, GRRM's insane cast is exactly that, insane with an underlying tide of anti-heroism.

 

If it weren't for the stand-out exceptions of WFR and FotF, I would think that Goodkind's books tell a fine story of a dark knight, a villain with a slightly warped honor code. Except that they don't, so there's no chance of making that mistake. No re-reads for him, sticking to Leigh Butler.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I liked the Sword of Truth. I really did. I'm not sure I'd ever read the whole series again... But there were a few books from that series that were really fun. I do think that WoT makes SoT look like a kid's story with rapists in it, but I didn't hate SoT.

 

Looks like someone isn't old enough to read Sword of Truth.

 

Sounds like he has taste to me.

How old do you need to be to "appreciate" Goodkind's tone-deaf puerile drivel? 12? 13?

 

Actually that is the right age to appreciate it. I read it when I was twelve and I liked it back then. And if I think of all the crappy tv shows I liked back then I can't say that I had good taste. I didn't even notice how badly it was written since I am not a native speaker and was still learning English.

[LeeM.Erickson]

I don't know about that, GRRM gets pretty brutal. Most recent example being that little three-way love fest with Reek, "Arya Stark" and that freak I can't remember the name of.

 

It was Ramsay Bolton I think.

[Werthead]

Everyone's forgetting the major reason why a lot of Robert Jordan fans hate Goodkind: that little comment he made about having a healthy heart and what great shape he was in at the exact moment RJ was dying of a heart condition. RJ himself called Goodkind on it in his last-ever blog post. That's not really something you can come back from and be forgiven for easily, if ever.

 

There's also the nasty incident in which a Canadian SoT fan got into a discussion on one of the SoT forums about some of Goodkind's messages in the books and Goodkind himself intervened (rather unusually, as at the time he didn't have Internet access; apparently one of the admins was relaying the discussion back and forth to him). When he couldn't get the upper hand in the debate, he took to calling Canada a fascist police state and being vastly inferior to the USA, which did not go over well at all. The entire discussion was abruptly deleted off the message board, which was even more amusing.

 

Of course, these things don't reflect on the books, just the fact that the author is a bit of an idiot.

 

If there was ever any doubt over SoT copying WoT, would TOR have published both authors?

 

Tor Books likes making money, and by publishing both authors they avoided the problem of having to sue themselves ;)

 

Sounds like he has taste to me.

How old do you need to be to "appreciate" Goodkind's tone-deaf puerile drivel? 12? 13?

 

I think that was a joke. One of Goodkind's defences in interviews when asked any question with a negative connotation is that the questioner might not have been old enough to have read his books.

[Vinny]

Everyone's forgetting the major reason why a lot of Robert Jordan fans hate Goodkind: that little comment he made about having a healthy heart and what great shape he was in at the exact moment RJ was dying of a heart condition. RJ himself called Goodkind on it in his last-ever blog post. That's not really something you can come back from and be forgiven for easily, if ever.

 

There's also the nasty incident in which a Canadian SoT fan got into a discussion on one of the SoT forums about some of Goodkind's messages in the books and Goodkind himself intervened (rather unusually, as at the time he didn't have Internet access; apparently one of the admins was relaying the discussion back and forth to him). When he couldn't get the upper hand in the debate, he took to calling Canada a fascist police state and being vastly inferior to the USA, which did not go over well at all. The entire discussion was abruptly deleted off the message board, which was even more amusing.

 

Of course, these things don't reflect on the books, just the fact that the author is a bit of an idiot.

 

If there was ever any doubt over SoT copying WoT, would TOR have published both authors?

 

Tor Books likes making money, and by publishing both authors they avoided the problem of having to sue themselves ;)

 

Sounds like he has taste to me.

How old do you need to be to "appreciate" Goodkind's tone-deaf puerile drivel? 12? 13?

 

I think that was a joke. One of Goodkind's defences in interviews when asked any question with a negative connotation is that the questioner might not have been old enough to have read his books.

 

Ha ha! If it was a joke. Clever!

Goodkind rubs me the wrong way. I guess he pushes my "button." He's just such a *bad* writer. It's painful. And he thinks he's Tolstoy! Maybe better.

[LeeM.Erickson]

I was referencing Goodkind's dumb comment when I said that, yeah, it was a joke :p

 

It's one of my three go-to Goodkind jokes. 1) You're not old enough... 2) He doesn't really write fantasy, it's his own super special genre, and 3) that chicken is pure evil.

 

I had forgotten about the heart comment that he made, what a doucher.

[Vinny]

I was referencing Goodkind's dumb comment when I said that, yeah, it was a joke :p

 

It's one of my three go-to Goodkind jokes. 1) You're not old enough... 2) He doesn't really write fantasy, it's his own super special genre, and 3) that chicken is pure evil.

 

I had forgotten about the heart comment that he made, what a doucher.

 

Heh heh heh, classics all!

This is Goodkind:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dHpRXTIK1g

[Plato]

Wow I didn't know all of THIS about Goodkind...

 

I disliked him because:

After reading the first couple of chapters of SoT none of his characters seemed real

The "wizard/teacher" character was over the top

The characters STILL didn't seem real, ie. they were just going through the motions of their archetype

Why is the villain touching little boys?

Why are we STILL focusing so much on touching little boys?! It's not necessary to go through this just so I know this is the bad guy...

Oh look, the main character and the main female character are bonding in a desperate situation /rolls eyes

Oh look, the main character has a strong, manly friend who will lead them to the hole in the wall.. he doesn't have "first to die" written all over him...

 

And then I stopped reading out of boredom and disappointment, and waited for ToM to come out.

[Dreggs Morlock]

My brother is a HUGE fan of Goodkind's, and we got into a big arguement about the whole "the sword depends on the Seeker's perception of what truth is" thing. He told me I was reading it wrong, even when we went over the whole "that tree is evil, it must come down" bit.

 

Later in the story, everything Zedd told them pertaining to this is completely reversed, proving my brother's point... which made me want to pull out what is left of my hair. Sooo... was the complete contradiction intentional on Goodkind's part, or does he not care at all for consistancy?

 

If this was the only subject where "rules set in stone" can't even be considered rules since they are broken a lot more that adhered to, it would be easier to accept; but it happens ALL the time. There is only one rule Goodkind never breaks; and that is the author reserves the right to change everything if he feels the scene he is writing calls for it.

 

~Edited for Spelling

[SuperFade]

My brother is a HUGE fan of Goodkind's, and we got into a big arguement about the whole "the sword depends on the Seeker's perception of what truth is" thing. He told me I was reading it wrong, even when we went over the whole "that tree is evil, it must come down" bit.

 

Later in the story, everything Zedd told them pertaining to this is completely reversed, proving my brother's point... which made me want to pull out what is left of my hair. Sooo... was the complete contradiction intentional on Goodkind's part, or does he not care at all for consistancy?

 

If this was the only subject where "rules set in stone" can't even be considered rules since they are broken a lot more that adhered to, it would be easier to accept; but it happens ALL the time. There is only one rule Goodkind never breaks; and that is the author reserves the right to change everything if he feels the scene he is writing calls for it.

 

~Edited for Spelling

 

Goodkind wouldn't know consistency if it dressed up in red leather and had kinky torture sex with him for weeks at a time. This topic made me curious about whether there were any in-depth reviews on just how bad SoT is, and lo and behold, it turns out it's in the process of being sporked:

 

http://eragon-sporkings.wikispaces.com/Sword+of+Truth+Sporks

 

The reviewer goes through each book chapter by chapter, pointing out all the contradictions, hypocrisy and grammatical errors in every one. In the second book he starts a 'Rape Counter' to keep track of Goodkind's rape fixation.

[Luckers]

I'm having more fun reading the sporks than I did reading the series. :)

[Plato]

haha the http://eragon-sporki...of+Truth+Sporks is a fun little read.

 

But on a serious note, aren't publishers supposed to scrutinize and nit pick books way more then sporki? How did it even get published if there are so many problems with it?!

[Hael Me]

Goodkind... Oh, the inherent irony of that name.

[Orderofolde]

The blatant plagiarism is probably the main reason, although at least when he was ripping off Wheel of Time he was stealing something good. Then later on Goodkind's inner Objectivist broke free and he began ripping off Ayn Rand instead and everything went to hell.

 

Then of course there's the CHICKEN THAT WAS EVIL MANIFEST and the evil pacifists from Naked Empire that dear old Terry will never, ever live down.

If there was ever any doubt over SoT copying WoT, would TOR have published both authors? I'm sorry, RJ told a great tale as did Mr. Goodkind, but even RJ borrowed heavily from LoTR he just didn't agree people would go along so readily with some wizard showing up and naming them the savior of all. RJ modeled his characters and lore told within his books heavily off Mythology and oral histories. He was clever enough to use modern day things twisting them to suit his purpose such as Ann Landers being "Anla the Wise Counselor" and Glen Armstrong and his rocket to be the tale of, "Lem who rode in the belly of an eagle of fire to the moon." I have to smile, it's brilliant. But fantasy follows specific lines leading from A to B and on to C. Goodkind wrote a lot of original plot and story line, but unlike the similarities between RJ and Goodkind, no one's bantered RJ about his borrowing heavily from Tolkien and from Mythology. I suppose that is because he has admitted it openly as well as his scorn for the easy beginnings to such stories. Sure, RJ pointed at the release dates of the books as to who came out with it first, but having the same publisher... In the interest of capitalism, were I the publisher I'd stagger genre-similar releases from two top-sellers apart from each other giving RJ fans an alternate read between RJ releases, and RJ's books between Goodkind releases. (Also both had the same TOR editors apart from Harriet, and editors can be harsh saying what works and what sells. There could have been crossover. Sorry GK, this is good, but maybe if we make this here into this, it will sell better. RJ, this is awesome, but if we polish this up here with this...)

 

You are going to have the similarities, a good side, and a bad side and women are more fun to write as being baddies than men. But RJ didn't have magic. It's the One Power, sort of like "The Force" in Star Wars only better. Some nods to that Gray guy that wrote Men are from Mars with the separation of the two halves at work? We can't all look at things and assume there was copying. There would have been lawsuits, and a publisher wouldn't have stuck with someone if it werre even possible. I've seen here and there slight nods to Lucas in RJ's work with Rand's blades of fire and some other small things. He even has references to objects like jets and helicopters, and gee, life experience of a few tours in 'Nam riding as a waist gunner probably had something to do with that, but the average reader who didn't know that rolls their eyes and thinks of how original flutter-wings and jocars are when they are nothing but helicopters and planes.

 

Great ideas tend to stick around like bad smells, everyone sees or reads about them and thinks they are cool, or maybe it's a good idea, but you have an idea that one-ups what you read...I have both series on my shelf, Goodkind's later books kind of make me scratch my head, but then some of RJ's have been filler to advance only certain character's arcs and weren't my favorite however they were better than the average books I could have picked up. Once you are well read in all the various major fantasy series by Stackpole, Goodkind, Modesitt, Jordan, Tolkien, all the newer and shorter series like Sanderson you see similarities be it nods to others' works or something that naturally crops up in the flow of things. Modesitt has used a chaos wizzard's fire and its effects similar to Balefire. RJ made it his with the reversed colors and ceasing to exist bit.

 

By the way, I could have sworn that RJ did a professional comment/review supporting Goodkind's books on one of his earlier ones released. I saw that on the back with other review from various newspapers and magazines and shook my head as I'd only recently heard of the conflict a few weeks prior to seeing it when I was going through my books. I distinctly remember laughing about it. I can't remember the book, though. I thought maybe TOR prompted it on a reprint to settle us fans over any problems between the two. It read something like Goodkind was a great and upcoming writer whose world was original and ideas fresh or some sort. Come to think of it...it was on one of the first pages inside the book iirc. I was looking at the order of the SoT books as I wanted to get the latest Richard and Kahlan book. So one of the first 5-6 somewhere there's an RJ review on it. I know I kind of rambled, but I guess my message is you have to take things as they are, at face value, and appreciate what they are. I was reading both series together and it took reading some posts on DM before I took another look and was like, "What? No, really?" and after looking, yes, similarities exist but the character builds are different, and the rules and worlds are different. The closest I thought of those Sisters in GK's world and their throwing things were like the glave off Beastmaster, and I couldn't fault him for that since it was cool and I liked that movie too.

Of course I am leaving out the little piece that on the first edition of GK's Debt of Bones paperback edition the Copyright states "Copyright Robert Jordan 1998, 2001" that TOR scrambled to recall. If you are lucky to own one of those misprints, it'll fetch you $30-50.00

[Mr Ares]

But on a serious note, aren't publishers supposed to scrutinize and nit pick books way more then sporki? How did it even get published if there are so many problems with it?!

As a rule, publishers care less about problems with a book than they do how much money it will make them.

[b3arz3rg3r]

But on a serious note, aren't publishers supposed to scrutinize and nit pick books way more then sporki? How did it even get published if there are so many problems with it?!

As a rule, publishers care less about problems with a book than they do how much money it will make them.

 

 

And as long as the multitudes of D&D based, Warhammer based, Star Wars based fantasy and the Gor series continues to sell there just won't be an incentive for them to be as dedicated as the sporkers.

[SylvanFox]

 

Goodkind wouldn't know consistency if it dressed up in red leather and had kinky torture sex with him for weeks at a time. This topic made me curious about whether there were any in-depth reviews on just how bad SoT is, and lo and behold, it turns out it's in the process of being sporked:

 

http://eragon-sporkings.wikispaces.com/Sword+of+Truth+Sporks

 

The reviewer goes through each book chapter by chapter, pointing out all the contradictions, hypocrisy and grammatical errors in every one. In the second book he starts a 'Rape Counter' to keep track of Goodkind's rape fixation.

 

Man, I had so much fun reading that, and it also made me realize something. I smoked a lot while reading SoT... I think it made it more believable. I forgot the rules to the sword before Kahlan had even cut down the tree. I didn't even notice anything weird about the whole Darken Rahl/Carl-in-the-sand thing. I thought it might be nice to be buried in sand and fed with a... horn? Or a Doritos feedbag. And I'd have a TV.

 

Yeah, I enjoyed the Sword of Truth.