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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

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so i am reading the sword of truth series for the 2nd time in a lon long while. these last few years have been a WOT overdose for me. Ive always wondered what Jordan had against goodkind. i think they are both great writers.

 

so who knows? Terez maybee or Luckers. I would love some info iin this general thing.

 

I smell a troll...

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so i am reading the sword of truth series for the 2nd time in a lon long while. these last few years have been a WOT overdose for me. Ive always wondered what Jordan had against goodkind. i think they are both great writers.

 

so who knows? Terez maybee or Luckers. I would love some info iin this general thing.

 

I smell a troll...

 

 

im not a troll IM HE WHO COMES WITH A BONG hahahah

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The blatant plagiarism is probably the main reason, although at least when he was ripping off Wheel of Time he was stealing something good. Then later on Goodkind's inner Objectivist broke free and he began ripping off Ayn Rand instead and everything went to hell.

 

Then of course there's the CHICKEN THAT WAS EVIL MANIFEST and the evil pacifists from Naked Empire that dear old Terry will never, ever live down.

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so i am reading the sword of truth series for the 2nd time in a lon long while. these last few years have been a WOT overdose for me. Ive always wondered what Jordan had against goodkind. i think they are both great writers.

 

so who knows? Terez maybee or Luckers. I would love some info iin this general thing.

 

Perhaps the fact that Goodking totally ripped him off and was an utter prick. Believe he also made some blatantly anti-Jordan comments over the years.

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I think we're a rare breed, those of us who can enjoy both writers (most of the time) without turning into a frothing, rabid maniac who will defend his Chosen One to the death :tongue:

These kinds of threads always derail into some utter mess of idiocy and fanboyism though, I wouldn't hold high hopes for this one.

 

The blatant plagiarism is probably the main reason, although at least when he was ripping off Wheel of Time he was stealing something good. Then later on Goodkind's inner Objectivist broke free and he began ripping off Ayn Rand instead and everything went to hell.

Plagiarism would be valid criticism if Jordan actually had any original ideas himself, as opposed to chucking a load of mythology into a blender and making a few characters wizards.

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Plagiarism would be valid criticism if Jordan actually had any original ideas himself, as opposed to chucking a load of mythology into a blender and making a few characters wizards.

 

Why was Goodkind not able to do that then without handpicking the ones Jordan had already used? Funny to that Goodkind denies any similarities while RJ just takes the high ground. That in itself is a very telling statement.

 

Also note usually when people discuss SoT having plagiarised WoT it is not universal archetypes or even any single similarity they are discussing. People can point to quite specific concepts he took such as the adam/female order of magicians/magic system with two sides in WoT amongst others things that aren't used all that often in Fantasy. It's the sheer number of similarities in regards to those types of things, not mythological archetypes that raise a red flag.

 

From USA Today 4 August 2003:

 

Haddonfield, NJ: Second Question - I've noticed similarities between your Sword of Truth series and Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series...(Black Sisterhood vs. Black Ajah; The Order vs. The Seanchan; Richard vs. Rand both discovering their powers, both have Nameless evil Gods...etc.) I've often voiced my suspicion that these two series might be occurring on the same world...how crazy am I?

 

Terry Goodkind: If you notice a similarity, then you probably aren't old enough to read my books.

 

Robert Jordan said:

From USA Today 5 January 2004:

 

Delmar, NY: Have you ever read or heard about the Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind? After reading the series it is obvious many of the main ideas are copied from the WoT.

 

Robert Jordan: I'm aware of Mr. Goodkind.

 

 

Robert Jordan said:

Robert Jordan's blog 15 July 2006 - NO CHAMPAGNE YET

 

For Richard Scholten, I have never discussed anything whatsoever with Terry Goodkind. I suggest that you check the publication dates of his books and mine. Of course, he says he has never read me, or so I'm told, and I would never contradict a statement like that. Just check out the pub dates on his books, and the pub dates on mine, those that contain the similarities you speak of.

Edited by Suttree
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Plagiarism would be valid criticism if Jordan actually had any original ideas himself, as opposed to chucking a load of mythology into a blender and making a few characters wizards.

 

There is a difference between plagiarism and simply being unoriginal. Robert Jordan may not have been the most original out there but he didn't lift ideas wholesale from other works, unlike Terry Goodkind with his notAes Sedai and his notBalefire and his notAiel.

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I think we're a rare breed, those of us who can enjoy both writers (most of the time) without turning into a frothing, rabid maniac who will defend his Chosen One to the death :tongue:

These kinds of threads always derail into some utter mess of idiocy and fanboyism though, I wouldn't hold high hopes for this one.

 

The blatant plagiarism is probably the main reason, although at least when he was ripping off Wheel of Time he was stealing something good. Then later on Goodkind's inner Objectivist broke free and he began ripping off Ayn Rand instead and everything went to hell.

Plagiarism would be valid criticism if Jordan actually had any original ideas himself, as opposed to chucking a load of mythology into a blender and making a few characters wizards.

 

I'm quite certain that RJ borrowed from more than just mythology. I just read the Fionavar Tapestry by Guy Garriel Kay and there are many similarities with WoT. Sure, most of them are down to using the same myths as a source (e.g.the Arthur legend), but others just seem too obvious. It wouldn't surprise me if RJ read it and borrowed an element or two from it.

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I think we're a rare breed, those of us who can enjoy both writers (most of the time) without turning into a frothing, rabid maniac who will defend his Chosen One to the death :tongue:

These kinds of threads always derail into some utter mess of idiocy and fanboyism though, I wouldn't hold high hopes for this one.

 

The blatant plagiarism is probably the main reason, although at least when he was ripping off Wheel of Time he was stealing something good. Then later on Goodkind's inner Objectivist broke free and he began ripping off Ayn Rand instead and everything went to hell.

Plagiarism would be valid criticism if Jordan actually had any original ideas himself, as opposed to chucking a load of mythology into a blender and making a few characters wizards.

 

I'm quite certain that RJ borrowed from more than just mythology. I just read the Fionavar Tapestry by Guy Garriel Kay and there are many similarities with WoT. Sure, most of them are down to using the same myths as a source (e.g.the Arthur legend), but others just seem too obvious. It wouldn't surprise me if RJ read it and borrowed an element or two from it.

 

Curious to see what you think those obvious similarities refer to outside of common fantasy themes?

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Have to confess that I'm no huge fantasy buff, so I'm probably on thin ice trying to tell the difference between common fantasy themes and direct borrowing.

 

What stood out for me:

 

Owein's horn - The horn of Valere. Blow it and great kings (ghost like) will come fight for you.

 

The Tapestry - The Pattern / Weaves - Threads

 

The über Uathach in white - Shaidar Haran. Both are unsettling the (prior) number 1 right hand of the dark (Galadan / Ishy)

 

The winter created by the dark

 

etc.

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I don't really care one way or another for the literary spat or the similarities or lack thereof. I'm content to enjoy the Wheel of Time for what it is, and think that the success of the Sword of Truth is entirely due to the wizards first rule. The concept, not the book.

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inb4...Oh, no, too late.

 

You should look around a bit before you post a thread of this nature. Then you would know it's a complete and total waste of time and that any appreciation for SoT and/or criticism of RJ and WoT is lost on the majority of the community here. Always going to fall on deaf ears. Or blind eyes. Or numb fingers. Depends on how you look at it I guess.

Edited by Ashaman Kovan
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inb4...Oh, no, too late.

 

You should look around a bit before you post a thread of this nature. Then you would know it's a complete and total waste of time and that any appreciation for SoT and/or criticism of RJ and WoT is lost on the majority of the community here. Always going to fall on deaf ears. Or blind eyes. Or numb fingers. Depends on how you look at it I guess.

 

Hey mate, been a while since we've seen you around these parts!

 

This thread has obviously been rather tame so far compared to some of the old flame wars on the topic. Fairly reasoned up to this point I would say...doubt it will last though.

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inb4...Oh, no, too late.

 

You should look around a bit before you post a thread of this nature. Then you would know it's a complete and total waste of time and that any appreciation for SoT and/or criticism of RJ and WoT is lost on the majority of the community here. Always going to fall on deaf ears. Or blind eyes. Or numb fingers. Depends on how you look at it I guess.

 

Hey mate, been a while since we've seen you around these parts!

 

This thread has obviously been rather tame so far compared to some of the old flame wars on the topic. Fairly reasoned up to this point I would say...doubt it will last though.

 

How you doing? But yeah, my gut tells me sooner rather than later this thread will descend into the madness driven rabidness that is SoT VS WoT lol.

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couldn't help it. a sanderson write up from the cage match featuring a character (one of my favorite) from goodkind.

http://brandonsanderson.com/blog/972/Suvudu-Cage-Match-Vin-vs.-Zeddicus-Zul-Zorander

 

i found it comedic, but it also give an idea about what is kind of dumb about the sword of truth. don't get me wrong, i enjoy/enjoyed the series, but regardless of any similarities to the wheel of time i don't think it can shake a stick at the epic awesomeness that is twot. the further it goes the more political reflection it seems to get and the less telling a compelling story it seems.

 

haven't read the mistborn series yet, but if this is about how that character behaves in that series i think i'm interested in checking it out.

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It's pretty obvious that Terry Goodkind basically took the skeleton of Wheel of Time and used it to write Sword of Truth. Turns out that was a good idea, WoT is awesome and SoT at least started out pretty awesome as well. Then (and here I agree totally with one of the posts up above) SoT devolved from "great epic fantasy series" to "pulpit for individualist manifesto" and pretty much went into the hole. By the time it got to the horrible contrived ending I actually was only still reading because I had invested so much time I had to finish the series. Too bad, I liked Goodkind's writing and the first several books in the series were some of my favorite fantasy works. I just can't believe he would say that he had never read WoT and not be aware of the similarities; given the extent of those similarities, if I got the chance to bet money on his polygraph I would put my life savings on "liar". He should have just admitted it and said something to the effect that it all borrows from earlier works, there is no 100% original fantasy, but what matters is whether it's good or not so who cares just read my books.

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Say what you like. WoT was the greatest fantasy series of all time (sorry Mr. Tolkien). But Mr. Goodkind wrote a great fantasy series as well. Did he steal some ideas from Mr. Jordan? Perhaps. But I defy all of you to name me a fantasy author that didn't borrow from past writers (including the aforementioned Mr. Tolkien). All of them have and all of the future ones will. The fact that none of you like the idea the T.G. borrowed ideas from Mrs. A.R., can't detract from the simple truth that the ideas of man have always been expressed through the prose that some authors have decided to eximplify through novels. You may not agree with the stance Mr. T. Goodkind has taken, but the simple truth is that his novels have been well written and exciting to read.

 

Now, can we say that the text is original? Of course not, if we wanted to discount his protaginast, we would have to overlook Rand al'Thor, Belgarion, Richard Rahl, Elric of Melnibone, Drizzt and countless others, there have been many main characters that have existed for a cause that authors have written to prove a point, the fact is, that we have to look at the point that the author has been trying to make. The simple fact of the matter is, do you agree with the point the author is attempting to pass or not? Many of you don't agree with T.G's point. But whether the idea they are making is agreeable to you or not is beside the point. Is Richard and the Mord-Sith, and there fight against Imperial Order, making a statement against the devisveness that exists in American politics that resonates with me? Does T.G. and his belief in the teachings of Mrs. Ayn Rynd mean anything to anyone? And if so, is there a point to be made? If not for those of you that disagree, but those of us that believe in an the idea of Atlas Shrugged?

 

Whether you agree with his political philosophy or not, T.G is a decent (not on the level of R.J. or J.R.R. Tolkien) author, and his novels are entertaining at the very least. His works need to be defined by the environment in which his viewpoints were determined. European readers would have a much different reaction than American readers would to his philosophy.

Edited by Ishmael Forsaken
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I read the SoT (partially) long before I read WoT. I liked WFR, but after the 4th book I stopped reading the series. I just didn't like it. Every book was the exact same as the book before, only a little different wording. It definitely stopped being entertaining and was just annoying. Then I read WoT and was like woah, it feels like I have read this before. So I don't really care that Mr. Terry borrowed ideas, what I care about is just that his books aren't that good, imo.

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I think we're a rare breed, those of us who can enjoy both writers (most of the time) without turning into a frothing, rabid maniac who will defend his Chosen One to the death :tongue:

These kinds of threads always derail into some utter mess of idiocy and fanboyism though, I wouldn't hold high hopes for this one.

 

I agree - I love both series. Although I love "The Wheel of Time" better and think that Jordan's world is far deeper and richer, and his characters have better depth, and there isn't as much sex and violence I actually think Terry Goodkind wrote a good story. I also don't see how he "ripped off Jordan". And (this will probably earn me some enemies here) but my favourite part of "The Sword of Truth" was "Faith of the Fallen" (which seems to be everyone's most hated book) when he makes a statue to symbolise the spirit of humanity. I don't understand why everyone hates that part. Yes, it has some similarities to "The Fountainhead" by Ayn Rand, but that's not to say he didn't put his own stamp on it.

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It has always been my opinion that most of the hate Goodkind gets around here stems from his interviews more then the novels. I agree the Goodkinds books have some huge similarities to WOT (collared magic users for one), but it is also true that all fantasy novels, borrow ideas from what came before. So the similarities with WOT never really bothered me. What really turned me off was when I began reading his interviews, the man is a real ego-maniac. When he makes statements like "You probably not old enough to read my books" and his complete dissing of the entire fantasy genre really turned me off. It didn't help that I fundamentally disagree with his views. So I can never be completely objective about him. I have read the first 11 books, I did find the basic story of Richard and Khalan interesting, and Zedd was always fun to read, but at the same time I was frothing mad during the Naked Empire and am still surprised I finished. The idea that it would be ok to segregate an entire people just because they are pacifists, is just wrong on so many levels. By the end of Confessor I was cheering for the bad guy to win, I think that is a failure on the authors part. Richard Rhal could never be wrong, so I lost all of my empathy for him.

 

One other thing that always turned me off was the ultra violence, you hear people say they would never want to get stuck in GRRM's world because it is so violent, well I would rather be there then a woman in Goodkind's world, because you know it is only a matter of time before you are brutally beaten and raped repeatedly. Those scene's were so harsh, and unnecessary.

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