Blademaster Worthiness

[pointerksl]

 

 

No I think you have it right, RJ was making the ranking for those 4 compared to eachother. I'm sure there are some Aiel masters that might mix up those ranks a bit.

 

No he isn't right I'm afraid. We have two quotes, one from each author.

 

Question: How do the swordsmen rank against each other?

Answer: Lan>Rand (pre-losing hand)>Galad>Gawyn

 

&

 

sleepinghour on Twitter 8 November 2010

Who is the best swordsman in WoT right now?

Brandon

Lan. Then Galad. Then Gawyn. Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he is.

 

 

The first quote is still non-conclusive when taking into account the ability of blademaster' outside of these four mentioned.

 

The second seems more definitive but it also depends on the context of the question. The way the question is phrased could easily be construed, based on the conversation, as who's the best out fore mentioned blademasters? It's not enough to explicitly say, Galad's is only bettered by Lan in the entire world. And the same for Gawyn (Lan & Galad). I think the second question is simply the first questioned rephrased. Or at least I think Brandon answered it as such. Otherwise it's just a little too convenient that we have the top 3 (4 with prehand Rand) blademasters in existence all together, or at least, all on our side (as a reader). I think, RJ in particular, and BS are too good at what they do to throw in such a deus ex machina (minor though it may be). It's too easy and amateur to say "the good guys have all of the best of the best swordsman so suck it". I don't know. It's not that I don't trust the "word of God", so to speak, I just think that the "evidence" can be interpreted more than one way and I think BS probably answered the question based on "Who is the best swordsman between our heros/subheroes?" and not a "Who is the best in the entire world of WoT?" But I will leave it there. Maybe it's just something that makes the story more real for me, if there were a swordsman out there capable of besting our heroes. (Except Lan, let's not be unreasonable)

 

Cheers

[Entreri]

"Maybe it's just something that makes the story more real for me, if there were a swordsman out there capable of besting our heroes. (Except Lan, let's not be unreasonable) "

 

Lan is certainly #1 in the world.

 

I suppose you can argue if Rand is #2 in the world.

 

Full limbs, given LTT's memories, I would say definitely. Rand was trained by the best blademaster and beat a Seanchan blademaster after a few months of training...prodigy (happens in the real world, eg. John Jones in the UFC).

 

 

Seanchan is a very populous continent, no doubt has dozens of blademasters...however the damane and sul'dam were surprised that Gawyn survived against an elite Seanchan assassin...which they think is impossible. Certainly Gawyn is more than a match for 1 of them.

 

etc and etc.

 

Given that, it is likely that they are indeed #1-#4.

[Suttree]

The first quote is still non-conclusive when taking into account the ability of blademaster' outside of these four mentioned.

 

Just curious what would make you think that? It doesn't specify anyone or narrow the field down at all...

[Stubby]

that list has to be re-thunk due to the events in ToM.

while Lan might still be the best, Gawyn beat 3 elite Power-enhanced Seanchan assassins simultaneously and then he becomes a Warder. To me, that puts him secondif not equal to Lan. In any event he ranks ahead of Galad until Galad becomes a Warder. One-hand Rand would be beat against any blade master, I believe his POV says that. Once he gets his new body, and assuming it has 2 hands, he will have over 400 years of blade master experience and that would change everything.

[Suttree]

that list has to be re-thunk due to the events in ToM.

while Lan might still be the best, Gawyn beat 3 elite Power-enhanced Seanchan assassins simultaneously and then he becomes a Warder. To me, that puts him secondif not equal to Lan. In any event he ranks ahead of Galad until Galad becomes a Warder. One-hand Rand would be beat against any blade master, I believe his POV says that. Once he gets his new body, and assuming it has 2 hands, he will have over 400 years of blade master experience and that would change everything.

 

No it doesn't as BS list comes after ToM. Galad is still ahead and when Brandon said Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he was referring specifically to that fight.

[MattHildenbrandt]

Wow there are some startling opinions in this thread. So startling I felt I had to make an account and add my 2 cents.

 

 

 

I don't get it, why the big importance about wether Gawyn is better than Galad? Does it make him an inferior character that he isn't as good? Does that make Lan the best character in the books, since he's by word of the authors, the best physical fighter in the world?

 

At the end of the day, the authors have stated the rankings for physical swordsmanship already, because it was a matter of interest to some readers. These rankings are of course canon until it states that one has surpassed the other, that it ruins some peoples inner rankings of their favourite characters is just tough.

 

Elan: "Rankings are shit. End off" really? Why do they make you so upset then? If those rankings had Gawyn as best swordsman in the world, you'd be defending them tooth and nail :)

 

 

Just relax and enjoy the story people

 

we were just enjoying the story...but how many times am I supposed to reread the entire series between books? idle speculation on the forums gets more reads than the fan fiction anyway, so I'm all about the pissing contests ;)

[Entreri]

While it is likely that LTT was the #1 channeler blademaster, he may not have been the best in AoL. Channelers primary weapon = Power. He could have use the blade 1% of the time in combat, if that.

 

Someone like Lan, primary weapon is the sword, which he would easily use 90+% of the time (rest hand-to-hand or other weapons).

 

In the real world for example, the top kickboxer in the world is not going to beat the top boxer in a boxing match or vise versa.

 

That is why somebody like Slayer rules TAR supreme, the "Lion" of TAR as the wolves call him.

[Eht Slat Meit]

I wonder if it's occurred to people to ask -why- Sanderson noted that Gawyn is luckier than he thinks.

 

Is it because he got an inside track about shadows and light? He was on pure defensive and losing until the lights went out. Still, is that really all there is to it? Ter'angreal loses its shadow benefit, the bloodknives downgrade to Blademaster from Blademaster+++?

 

If they still retain their normal skillset, Gawyn'd still be facing the assassin equivalent of three blademasters in the dark. They're in their element, that of sneaking and skulking; outright darkness shouldn't be that dangerous to them... or should it?

 

We know that the ter'angreal are deadly to their wearers. Perhaps the sudden shift in element has a devastating effect on them?

 

Seems a likely explanation for a comment about "luck" in a fight that normally is about the skill of everyone involved.

 

Is the truth of the matter that Gawyn lucked out and got fed just the right information needed to kill the Bloodknives, and was lucky enough to completely darken the room appropriately by snuffing a single candle?

[garry1209]

I wonder if it's occurred to people to ask -why- Sanderson noted that Gawyn is luckier than he thinks.

 

Is it because he got an inside track about shadows and light? He was on pure defensive and losing until the lights went out. Still, is that really all there is to it? Ter'angreal loses its shadow benefit, the bloodknives downgrade to Blademaster from Blademaster+++?

 

If they still retain their normal skillset, Gawyn'd still be facing the assassin equivalent of three blademasters in the dark. They're in their element, that of sneaking and skulking; outright darkness shouldn't be that dangerous to them... or should it?

 

We know that the ter'angreal are deadly to their wearers. Perhaps the sudden shift in element has a devastating effect on them?

 

Seems a likely explanation for a comment about "luck" in a fight that normally is about the skill of everyone involved.

 

Is the truth of the matter that Gawyn lucked out and got fed just the right information needed to kill the Bloodknives, and was lucky enough to completely darken the room appropriately by snuffing a single candle?

 

fully agree..

[Smittyphi]

ranking are worthless at the moment. The word of god is useless because the real author died years ago without any updated information on sword rankings and the current author is well..... let's just say i cant take his rankings seriously....

 

Sorry Elan, that doesn't fly, you aren't privy as to when RJ last updated his notes...

 

 

trust me my dear. I have a sixth sense for such matters

 

So you can speak to RJ's ghost? Impressive

 

Yes and he tells me sanderson is just a useless author.

 

Seriously though how can galad be the second best swordsman in the land when he was getting thrashed by valda? How can can some shepherder whose barely old enough to leave his mouldy village beat a seanchan blademaster?

 

Rankings are shit. End off

 

That being said, if we ignore Sanderson's rankings and go with RJ, Galadedit: Gawyn is still 4th. Naturally bump Rand down for losing his hand and that makes Gawyn 3rd. Neither Galad nor Gawyn are so full of themselves as they would say they are better than each other. Gawyn DOES make it a point to say Galad is better. Not enough time has passed for Gawyn to surpass Galad.

 

If we do take into account Gawyn's Bloodknife battle, the posts above me can partially explain the "lucky" bit. Additionally, we know there are Seanchan blademasters. If there are Blademasters in the series, it is an important enough fact that it ALWAYS is mentioned. Were the Bloodknives blademasters, doubtful. Assassins strike in secret. Direct combat for an Assassin plays against all their known strengths. They were good, but still Assassins. 3 of them makes Gawyn lucky.

 

Edit: Mixing up my names

[Eht Slat Meit]

 

If we do take into account Gawyn's Bloodknife battle, the posts above me can partially explain the "lucky" bit. Additionally, we know there are Seanchan blademasters. If there are Blademasters in the series, it is an important enough fact that it ALWAYS is mentioned. Were the Bloodknives blademasters, doubtful. Assassins strike in secret. Direct combat for an Assassin plays against all their known strengths. They were good, but still Assassins. 3 of them makes Gawyn lucky.

 

The logic on this makes sense, but it also occurs to me that if (despite the hint of blade-forms in the assassins fighting) these are really nothing more than schoolhouse elites, no match for a real blademaster, then Gawyn's "accomplishment" is radically diminished by that fact... because he is a blademaster without the heron mark. To put it in PvP terms, beating up drones doesn't made you 1337.

 

IMO - The fight had no balance to it, and offered nothing to secure or deter from Gawyn's rankings against Galad, Lan or anyone else. Ter'angreal enhanced bloodknives he could not even fight, depleted bloodknives who were no match for him.

[Jon Paul]

Don't worry. Galad will get a bad-ass scene in the last book and everyone will jump over to his bandwagon again. After all that is how most people seem to be judging this. That is, whose had the latest scene? But you heard it here first. I've always maintained Galad was bad-ass !

[Kahsm]

that list has to be re-thunk due to the events in ToM.

while Lan might still be the best, Gawyn beat 3 elite Power-enhanced Seanchan assassins simultaneously and then he becomes a Warder. To me, that puts him secondif not equal to Lan. In any event he ranks ahead of Galad until Galad becomes a Warder. One-hand Rand would be beat against any blade master, I believe his POV says that. Once he gets his new body, and assuming it has 2 hands, he will have over 400 years of blade master experience and that would change everything.

 

No it doesn't as BS list comes after ToM. Galad is still ahead and when Brandon said Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he was referring specifically to that fight.

 

Exactly, which happened before he was bonded.

[Elan Tedronai]

 

If we do take into account Gawyn's Bloodknife battle, the posts above me can partially explain the "lucky" bit. Additionally, we know there are Seanchan blademasters. If there are Blademasters in the series, it is an important enough fact that it ALWAYS is mentioned. Were the Bloodknives blademasters, doubtful. Assassins strike in secret. Direct combat for an Assassin plays against all their known strengths. They were good, but still Assassins. 3 of them makes Gawyn lucky.

 

The logic on this makes sense, but it also occurs to me that if (despite the hint of blade-forms in the assassins fighting) these are really nothing more than schoolhouse elites, no match for a real blademaster, then Gawyn's "accomplishment" is radically diminished by that fact... because he is a blademaster without the heron mark. To put it in PvP terms, beating up drones doesn't made you 1337.

 

IMO - The fight had no balance to it, and offered nothing to secure or deter from Gawyn's rankings against Galad, Lan or anyone else. Ter'angreal enhanced bloodknives he could not even fight, depleted bloodknives who were no match for him.

 

blademaster without a heron blade is besides the point here. Gawyn has already finished two blademasters. And he bitchslapped a man who is supposedly a legend in steele.

 

That whole lucky thing is just sanderson talking shit as per usual. Over compensating for that gawyn vs bloodknive showdown where readers are simply in awe of gawyn's skills

[Suttree]

that list has to be re-thunk due to the events in ToM.

while Lan might still be the best, Gawyn beat 3 elite Power-enhanced Seanchan assassins simultaneously and then he becomes a Warder. To me, that puts him secondif not equal to Lan. In any event he ranks ahead of Galad until Galad becomes a Warder. One-hand Rand would be beat against any blade master, I believe his POV says that. Once he gets his new body, and assuming it has 2 hands, he will have over 400 years of blade master experience and that would change everything.

 

No it doesn't as BS list comes after ToM. Galad is still ahead and when Brandon said Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he was referring specifically to that fight.

 

Exactly, which happened before he was bonded.

 

and the list still came out after he was bonded, it is where things stand post ToM so your point is?

[Smiddywesson]

Hmm... I wonder, is Bonded Gawyn now better than Galad?

 

No.

 

 

Not according to the ladies, but then again, they are not thinking about his performance in the sword ring.

[Smiddywesson]

Your warder bond helped you step up to that level. But then again, you are good enough to be a blademaster now, so you should be. What are your thoughts? It just didn't seem right that someone can carry a heron marked blade when they didn't reach that level on their own. But, I guess a blademaster is a blademaster no matter how they attained it.

Sword-fighting in WOT is not a competitive Olympic sport. You are what you are however you got there.

 

The Warder bond doesn't make them faster or stronger.It's about granting them much greater endurance and recovery abilities. They can go longer without food or sleep, they heal quicker and can sense Shadowspawn in a close proximity.The drawing on their AS's strength or vice versa is about supplementing endurance, it's not about actually allowing them to lift more weight.

I rather think warders are, at least, faster or more agile and have greater awareness -- better senses or perception.

The books constantly repeat how warders walk differently, a graceful animal-like walk, suggesting that the bond gives more than endurance.

Also, again, warders are repeatedly described as ever vigilant -- see everything, even when they seem half asleep or minding their own business. This suggests that warders do have heightened senses, also handy in a sword-fight.

 

 

They aren't more agile or faster and it's never said to be the case ever. It's never even alluded to that Warders can move faster than anyone else. If fact, their reactions are mostly attributed to their extensive training, not the bond itself.

 

And how is the way Warders walk around any different than the way the Aiel are described?

Rhurac and Lan carry themselves almost identically.

 

 

Garith Bryn saves Suan in the courtyard when the bloodknife tries to kill her with an impossible stroke which he realizes wouldn't have worked if he hadn't been bonded as a warder that very same night. It's not just the training, warders are faster and more coordinated.

[Smiddywesson]

Straight from the books:

 

TGH, Ch. 24

 

Gawyn’s grin came back. “I do not know about that. Not from the way he was looking at Egwene, here.” He caught her look, and his sister’s, and held up his hands as if to fend them off with his sheathed sword. “Besides, he has the best hand with a sword I’ve ever seen. The Warders only need show him something once, and he’s learned it. They sweat me nearly to death to learn half what Galad does without trying.”

Pretty clear, if you ask me.

 

That would be definitive if it weren't Book II and Mr. No Confidence weren't talking about his big brother. A whole lot of water passed under the bridge before say, The Gathering Storm. Perrin, for instance, could thump Rand in Book II, but that would be a very bad idea before Zen Rand takes a chill pill. In the beginning of the book, they're all kids. Later, they are not. So, it's not pretty clear.

[Suttree]

Straight from the books:

 

TGH, Ch. 24

 

Gawyn’s grin came back. “I do not know about that. Not from the way he was looking at Egwene, here.” He caught her look, and his sister’s, and held up his hands as if to fend them off with his sheathed sword. “Besides, he has the best hand with a sword I’ve ever seen. The Warders only need show him something once, and he’s learned it. They sweat me nearly to death to learn half what Galad does without trying.”

Pretty clear, if you ask me.

 

That would be definitive if it weren't Book II and Mr. No Confidence weren't talking about his big brother. A whole lot of water passed under the bridge before say, The Gathering Storm. Perrin, for instance, could thump Rand in Book II, but that would be a very bad idea before Zen Rand takes a chill pill. In the beginning of the book, they're all kids. Later, they are not. So, it's not pretty clear.

 

Not true, but regardless as has been quoted numerous times in this thread we have a post ToM rating from the author. So I would say it is pretty clear...

 

 

sleepinghour on Twitter 8 November 2010

Who is the best swordsman in WoT right now?

Brandon

Lan. Then Galad. Then Gawyn. Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he is.

[David Selig]

Straight from the books:

 

TGH, Ch. 24

 

Gawyn’s grin came back. “I do not know about that. Not from the way he was looking at Egwene, here.” He caught her look, and his sister’s, and held up his hands as if to fend them off with his sheathed sword. “Besides, he has the best hand with a sword I’ve ever seen. The Warders only need show him something once, and he’s learned it. They sweat me nearly to death to learn half what Galad does without trying.”

Pretty clear, if you ask me.

 

That would be definitive if it weren't Book II and Mr. No Confidence weren't talking about his big brother. A whole lot of water passed under the bridge before say, The Gathering Storm. Perrin, for instance, could thump Rand in Book II, but that would be a very bad idea before Zen Rand takes a chill pill. In the beginning of the book, they're all kids. Later, they are not. So, it's not pretty clear.

Gawyn and Galad were not kids at this point (Book 2), Gawyn was in his early twenties, Galad 27-28. And unlike the country bumpkins Rand and Perrin, they've had many years of training in using weapons by what were undoubtedly top class teachers, including Gareth Bryne, before they came to the Tower.

[Eht Slat Meit]

blademaster without a heron blade is besides the point here. Gawyn has already finished two blademasters. And he bitchslapped a man who is supposedly a legend in steele.

 

That whole lucky thing is just sanderson talking shit as per usual. Over compensating for that gawyn vs bloodknive showdown where readers are simply in awe of gawyn's skills

 

As we've seen here already, "blademaster" is relative. We don't have anything about the comparative strength of the two blademasters that he beat, other than the simple fact that he beat them. Steele is a legend not as a blademaster, but as a hero to the locals. What that means is that Lan, Hands-Rand, Valda and Galad could have beat those two men under the same conditions, because they are lesser blademasters.

 

Clearly Valda isn't all that either, because when you are dealing with blademasters of close skill, one out-thinking another the way Galad did is a sign of inferiority, of crippling arrogance. If Valda were not a fool, he'd never have been taken that way; the fact is that he treats all people alike, as mice to be fed on, and died for it. We know from the use of forms that such fights requires a mental element as well as the physical. They're not just mindless wheat threshers, relying who has the highest stamina and quickest reflexes. This makes Galad his clear superior on the mental side of blademastery, while slightly behind on the physical.

[Kahsm]

that list has to be re-thunk due to the events in ToM.

while Lan might still be the best, Gawyn beat 3 elite Power-enhanced Seanchan assassins simultaneously and then he becomes a Warder. To me, that puts him secondif not equal to Lan. In any event he ranks ahead of Galad until Galad becomes a Warder. One-hand Rand would be beat against any blade master, I believe his POV says that. Once he gets his new body, and assuming it has 2 hands, he will have over 400 years of blade master experience and that would change everything.

 

No it doesn't as BS list comes after ToM. Galad is still ahead and when Brandon said Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he was referring specifically to that fight.

 

Exactly, which happened before he was bonded.

 

and the list still came out after he was bonded, it is where things stand post ToM so your point is?

 

You just admitted that it refered to a specific fight... before he was bonded. Let me put it another way, that's the rating for that book, not the next.

[Suttree]

that list has to be re-thunk due to the events in ToM.

while Lan might still be the best, Gawyn beat 3 elite Power-enhanced Seanchan assassins simultaneously and then he becomes a Warder. To me, that puts him secondif not equal to Lan. In any event he ranks ahead of Galad until Galad becomes a Warder. One-hand Rand would be beat against any blade master, I believe his POV says that. Once he gets his new body, and assuming it has 2 hands, he will have over 400 years of blade master experience and that would change everything.

 

No it doesn't as BS list comes after ToM. Galad is still ahead and when Brandon said Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he was referring specifically to that fight.

 

Exactly, which happened before he was bonded.

 

and the list still came out after he was bonded, it is where things stand post ToM so your point is?

 

You just admitted that it refered to a specific fight... before he was bonded. Let me put it another way, that's the rating for that book, not the next.

 

Yes his added note on Gawyn refers to a specific fight but it has nothing to do with the rest of the ranking.

 

I have seen you stretch meaning to fit your viewpoint numerous times but this has to be right up there with the most ridiculous. So when asked after ToM was released, BS gave an answer that actually refers to the ranking post TGS? Come on mate, give it a rest.

[Entreri]

Unless the bonding does the following immediately after the bonding: A) Makes a fighter faster

B) Makes a fighter more skilled

 

 

Neither of which the bonding does.

 

There is no way Gawyn has surpassed Galad.

 

 

I doubt Gawyn will ever surpass Galad, given that Gawyn is flighthy and relatively weak of mind (the most important attribute in combat). Gawyn is no more than Egwene's pet dog.

 

Rand, Galad comes from a similar stock...grade A gene pool.

[Kahsm]

that list has to be re-thunk due to the events in ToM.

while Lan might still be the best, Gawyn beat 3 elite Power-enhanced Seanchan assassins simultaneously and then he becomes a Warder. To me, that puts him secondif not equal to Lan. In any event he ranks ahead of Galad until Galad becomes a Warder. One-hand Rand would be beat against any blade master, I believe his POV says that. Once he gets his new body, and assuming it has 2 hands, he will have over 400 years of blade master experience and that would change everything.

 

No it doesn't as BS list comes after ToM. Galad is still ahead and when Brandon said Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he was referring specifically to that fight.

 

Exactly, which happened before he was bonded.

 

and the list still came out after he was bonded, it is where things stand post ToM so your point is?

 

You just admitted that it refered to a specific fight... before he was bonded. Let me put it another way, that's the rating for that book, not the next.

 

Yes his added note on Gawyn refers to a specific fight but it has nothing to do with the rest of the ranking.

 

I have seen you stretch meaning to fit your viewpoint numerous times but this has to be right up there with the most ridiculous. So when asked after ToM was released, BS gave an answer that actually refers to the ranking post TGS? Come on mate, give it a rest.

 

What you suggest would be rather ridiculous. I was referring to TOM and AMOL.